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Support from wife/kids/loved ones in your trading


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Support from wife/kids/loved ones in your trading

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  #201 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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So basically at this time we have allocated 25% of our life savings to the trading account. We can "afford to lose" it but it is really painful to see a drawdown. I can see where she is coming from because the loss represents like a months salary. That cannot keep happening in a row...
Edit: i believe i am getting better. But basically im at breakeven atm.

What % of your account are you losing. 25% of life savings and a months salary have no context.
If you are losing 1 or 2 %, then that is to be expected in trading. If you are losing 10% then you are eventually going broke.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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  #202 (permalink)
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I have an agreement with my wife to tell her how my trades went each day. She wants to know and be informed. So today my stop loss was hit and so i told her what i lost. Now she is super frustrated with me and doubting me and is moping around and getting upset and slamming doors and just left the house. I figured out the reason for my poor trade and have made adjustments to my strategy. But she doesnt get it and every time i have a loss and fix my strategy to make it better, all i can say to her is say, i think i figured it out so i can do better next time. And she says thats what you always say... And you still lost.
But each loss has been for a different reason and i am learning from my mistakes but it doesnt look that way to her.
Now she is saying things like she is questioning decisions she made to trust me etc. Etc. Basically trying to save the relationship etc. Anyone have any advice?

I think you need to do a better job of informing her.

I see her as an even less experienced trader than you, emotionally anyway, and as anyone in this game for any length of time can tell you, it's pretty much all emotion.

You need to do a better job ensuring she understands how much of a drawdown can happen and accept it BEFORE it happens. You also need to show her you are following your rules; its not up to her to believe you. How well are you tracking your performance?

Trust is not owed, it's earned.

Sorry if that's a bit hard to hear, but you asked.

Two other pieces of advice, worth every cent you paid for 'em: a) BOTH of you go read What I Learned Losing a Million Dollars and discuss it. b) Go back to sim until the E-micros come out next week.

I hope trading enhances your relationship, but for now it sounds like it's corroding it. Time to update more than just your trading plan.

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  #203 (permalink)
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@ClearTrades

Firstly I agree about what @bob7123 said. People who do not trade are unlikely to understand that trades may fail for a variety of reasons and fixing something today does not necessarily guarantee a winning trade tomorrow. So trying to articulate as fully as possible the randomness in markets as well as human nature's of making mistakes is helpful.
All the above provided you are 100% confident you already have a positive expectancy of course.

I would also review the values you and your wife share, i.e. revisit the fundamentals of your relationship (e.g. love, trust, passion in something, etc.), whatever they may be. I'm sure money is important in relationships but remembering why one got together in the first place is always worth pointing out (not to us here on FIO, I mean between the two of you).

My 2 c.

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  #204 (permalink)
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ClearTrades View Post
I have an agreement with my wife to tell her how my trades went each day. She wants to know and be informed. So today my stop loss was hit and so i told her what i lost. Now she is super frustrated with me and doubting me and is moping around and getting upset and slamming doors and just left the house. I figured out the reason for my poor trade and have made adjustments to my strategy. But she doesnt get it and every time i have a loss and fix my strategy to make it better, all i can say to her is say, i think i figured it out so i can do better next time. And she says thats what you always say... And you still lost.
But each loss has been for a different reason and i am learning from my mistakes but it doesnt look that way to her.
Now she is saying things like she is questioning decisions she made to trust me etc. Etc. Basically trying to save the relationship etc. Anyone have any advice?

I've been on the other side, where it was my wife trading and me supporting her process. She went 10 years without being profitable, but I supported her, even during some dark times (she is now regularly profitable). I was the one who pointed her in the direction of trading and she loves it. Now I am at my own trading desk (starting at the beginning of this year), so she is now required to have the same level of patience as I work through losses and systemic failures. Fortunately, she understands because she has been there and has been completely supportive.

One thing that is deadly to your day-to-day trading, in my opinion, is that she is inserting her FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) into your process. I would recommend nixing the daily updates, because it will affect your psychology deeply as her stresses will seep into your trading. You will be trading to satisfy her inherent need for security (or other needs), and her risk tolerance is probably not the same as your risk tolerance. Cut those updates to weekly, or ideally monthly. Unless you are losing $1k+ per day.....then maybe you need to work on your system before trading live.

If you are trying to earn and learn at the same time, that is probably a bad idea. You will have plenty of losses while learning and ti may be months or longer before you are regularly profitable. It is part of the process. As someone mentioned, work in sim first or what for the e-micros to come out this month and trade those. I think the sim idea is probably the best, because you can then show her how it should look. It won't necessarily allay her fears, but maybe it will bring some understanding and empathy.

I am guessing she is not a trader. I encourage you to invite her into your trading room and walk her through your process. Describe how you feel before, during, and after you make a trade. Talk about risk, money management, and psychology. Don't try to impress her with numbers.

One of my friends here on FIO is @snax, who has a really disciplined approach to training and developing as a trader (the good trading habits) in sim, before actually jumping into live trading. I recommend looking at his journal.

If trading is ruining your relationship, then you may want to reconsider trading. Your wife needs to be patient and supportive. Success doesn't happen in a day, week or month. This is a lifetime thing, and you and your wife need to be committed together on this or everything will come falling down. If you (and wife) don't have the time, patience and resources (money) for the long haul, then you need to decide what is more important. You can ask around here, but a trading account is much easier to replace than a spouse.

I kind of went all over the place with this response, but I do agree with a lot of other's responses. I sincerely hope this helps and best of luck.

~vmodus

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  #205 (permalink)
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vmodus View Post

[...]

One thing that is deadly to your day-to-day trading, in my opinion, is that she is inserting her FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) into your process. I would recommend nixing the daily updates, because it will affect your psychology deeply as her stresses will seep into your trading. You will be trading to satisfy her inherent need for security (or other needs), and her risk tolerance is probably not the same as your risk tolerance. Cut those updates to weekly, or ideally monthly. Unless you are losing $1k+ per day.....then maybe you need to work on your system before trading live.

If you are trying to earn and learn at the same time, that is probably a bad idea.
[...]

I am guessing she is not a trader. I encourage you to invite her into your trading room and walk her through your process. Describe how you feel before, during, and after you make a trade. Talk about risk, money management, and psychology. Don't try to impress her with numbers.

One of my friends here on FIO is @snax, who has a really disciplined approach to training and developing as a trader (the good trading habits) in sim, before actually jumping into live trading. I recommend looking at his journal.

[..]

I kind of went all over the place with this response, but I do agree with a lot of other's responses. I sincerely hope this helps and best of luck.

~vmodus

Far from being all over the place, I think that was a great post. I think it's a great template for talking to your spouse, as well as how to have productive self talk too.

Thanks, and thanks for the tip about @snax's journal.

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  #206 (permalink)
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My wife is not a trader, and she is very emotional. I have a very high risk tolerance (she does not). She really enjoys the feeling of security a steady paycheck can bring and up until a week ago I had one. Now I am out of a day job and steady paycheck so the stress of adjusting to that plus the timing of the drawdown sucks and threw her over the edge because the plan is me to earn by trading for a living instead of getting another job.
I do have a trading journal i keep in a spreadheet on my computer so i could show her that with all my notes and color highlights etc. But not sure she would get it so it would even help her. So much of getting better comes with experience and being immersed in it and being able to "see". Non trader will not understand what you see.

Basically every day I make money she says good job. But if I lose its like she loses all hope. I told her if it gets to the point I have to go get a job I will. Trying to calm her down.
I am not at the point of needing to do that though because I track my trades on a daily basis and cannsee how much on average I will make a week. And i keep a weekly budget tracking every single expense and have projected that out for the year. So when i compare the gains in trading projected against the budget, it all maths out fine. But trying to restore faith in me is tough since i have lost a lot of money in the past... With different failed strategies, and so even though my strategy now is different, she sees any loss as cumulative of instead of seeing a loss from an old trading strategy as an isolated event that is unrelated to my current method/system.

I have found that she usually calms down if she goes out and gets exercise, or i buy her roses and a card if it gets really extreme (which is what I did when she found out I was out of a job). She is very sensitive. Fortunately am usually quite stable emotionally so we make a good team. Usually i can calm her down.

So far everything today seems alright since I made money today Lol.

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  #207 (permalink)
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ClearTrades View Post
Basically every day I make money she says good job. But if I lose its like she loses all hope. I told her if it gets to the point I have to go get a job I will. Trying to calm her down.

This is why maybe weekly updates are better than daily. The big picture is hard to see when you're in the thicket. If you believe that your system has a statistical edge, then you need to convince her that your system is sound. Then just go and execute your plan.

~vmodus

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  #208 (permalink)
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25% of your life savings IMO is totally irresponsible in a partnership. I don't care how passionate you are, the overwhelming chance is you are going to lose that money actively trading.

If you are old and don't have a ton of time left to live that amount is too high.
If you are young you are risking the capital with the longest time to compound so it is a bad idea.

Personally, I would get a second job and tell the wife the money from this second job is for your trading bankroll.
So what if it takes you a few years to save up.

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  #209 (permalink)
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@centaurer
I would agree to a point. However, if you treat your trading like a business, i.e. entrepreneurial, then it would not be irresponsible. I cashed out a 401k to start one of my businesses, which went on to be successful. Then I funded another company that was mildly profitable, then another that was barely profitable, then another that was a disaster (not our fault, rather a vendor that became insolvent before delivering equipment). And one more that is profitable.

All of my/our capital was/is at risk, whether we were providing services, selling retail, or manufacturing (we have done all of these). We would do it all over again for any of these businesses, given the same circumstances, despite major losses or lean times along the way. That is probably why we can trade like we do. When we accept the risks and reward of our trading business, it is no different than when our vendor screwed us out of $50k in inventory. And when you lose $50k like that, it makes a $500 trading loss feel like nothing.

Like you, I would probably drive an Uber, substitute teach, or do whatever if I needed to bootstrap my trading business. Whatever it takes...

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  #210 (permalink)
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@vmodus It is no different than if your wife has been really inspired by watching James Holzhauer on Jeapordy and wants to use 25% of your combined life savings to fund a sports betting business.

Of course she could find edges like James Holzhauer but the overwhelming chance is that is not the case.

I guess it depends though how much you value the marriage. If you don't value the marriage much then it makes sense with basically using the wife's income stream as leverage.

IMO it is best to just avoid having the wife altogether and answer to no one when it comes to your capital.

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  #211 (permalink)
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centaurer View Post
IMO it is best to just avoid having the wife altogether and answer to no one when it comes to your capital.

That's my dad's approach to trading (though he still has the wife). She doesn't bug him about the trading, so he answers only to himself in that respect. It helps that he is regularly profitable.

Answering to no one definitely has it's appeal. Speaking for my wife and I, we are both quantifiably better traders with each other than by ourselves. If I didn't have a wife who totally understands the business, then I would definitely be flying solo.

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  #212 (permalink)
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I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT MY WIFE KNOWS PERFECTLY WELL HOW HARD THIS TRADING IS; I HAVE COME TO THIS CONCLUSION BECAUSE MY WIFE HAS A BAD CHARACTER AND YET WHEN SHE SAW THAT THINGS WERE NOT GOING VERY WELL, SHE NEVER SAID ANYTHING UNPLEASANT.

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  #213 (permalink)
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vmodus View Post
Speaking for my wife and I, we are both quantifiably better traders with each other than by ourselves. If I didn't have a wife who totally understands the business, then I would definitely be flying solo.


I like this... a lot. Amy has recently expressed some interest in trading... I would be thrilled if she decided to take the plunge, think it would be great to bounce off each other. Hmmm..

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  #214 (permalink)
 
 
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Anyone have any advice?

I read your comments and interaction.

Here is the problem; you are trying to calm your wife down without being factual and saying what trading is all about. Telling her that it's hard makes your argument weak, and this ongoing interaction does not create a positive environment for you. Markets are hard enough, and "trying harder" doe not make you a better trader.
Sit down with her, and tell her that there would be many consecutive losses, there are drawdowns and a learning curve that may take years. Most reasonable people who faced with facts become very understanding.

Most independent business people who rely on varying business cycles are faced with good periods, bad periods, and lackluster, just like any trader! If every businessperson came home and his/her spouse was breathing down his/her neck, we would still be hunting for mammoths while living in a cave.

Create a positive environment for you in every aspect of life. It's the first foundation of success in my opinion.

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  #215 (permalink)
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vmodus View Post
That's my dad's approach to trading (though he still has the wife). She doesn't bug him about the trading, so he answers only to himself in that respect. It helps that he is regularly profitable.

Answering to no one definitely has it's appeal. Speaking for my wife and I, we are both quantifiably better traders with each other than by ourselves. If I didn't have a wife who totally understands the business, then I would definitely be flying solo.

cheers,
~vmodus

I know I am an outlier in the other direction just because I am so bad at lasting relationships even without money being an issue.

Statistically though, money is the #1 cause of divorce. So if you introduce volatility to your cash flow and savings you introduce volatility to the marriage at average.

https://www.inc.com/magazine/20101101/why-so-many-entrepreneurs-get-divorced.html

I am sure you are an outlier in the trading business. I have dated so many women and none were anything like Tracy Alloway.

That might be a good measure for guys here. How far is the woman in your life from posting this on her social media:


vmodus is going to be hard to beat I think.

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  #216 (permalink)
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centaurer View Post
I know I am an outlier in the other direction just because I am so bad at lasting relationships even without money being an issue.

Statistically though, money is the #1 cause of divorce. So if you introduce volatility to your cash flow and savings you introduce volatility to the marriage at average.

https://www.inc.com/magazine/20101101/why-so-many-entrepreneurs-get-divorced.html

I am sure you are an outlier in the trading business. I have dated so many women and none were anything like Tracy Alloway.

That might be a good measure for guys here. How far is the woman in your life from posting this on her social media:


vmodus is going to be hard to beat I think.

@centaurer thanks for sharing that article. About 20 years ago, I used to work for an entrepreneur and I asked him his key to a happy marriage: "Separate bank accounts". He also said, "having money helps".

My wife and I had a money fight once and only once, before we were married, and it was not what you would think. We had plenty of money, but it was a practical consideration of combining our finances to pay a mortgage, bills, etc., versus having our own money. We both grew up poor and are pretty confident in our ability to earn money doing something, anything. In our businesses, we both have to be comfortable with a financial move or we don't make that move. I think we work because our philosophies on money are pretty well aligned. And we may be the outliers.

My wife is probably closer to Tracy Alloway than any one else that I've known, aside from despising social media. She can totally geek out on charts, patterns, movements, technical analysis, etc. So I count myself lucky.

Maybe a way to think of a spouse's/significant others involvement in your trading/business it is this: if you want to dabble in my business, you better be ready to get your hands dirty.

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  #217 (permalink)
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Hi All,

I had a trading "disaster" about two years ago, you can read ir at the elite fórum discussion, but to sum up, I Gave away everything I made+original investiment. Looking back my falults were:
- too much to handle at same time: new baby, my business, family affairs
- too much of a gambling approach vs investiment

- trading without knowing what I was doing and literaly too much leverage

I invested All savings I had left on stocks ( Msft, fbook, tndm diabetes, etc) and made 5 Times the original investiment in roughly two years.

Basically I was trying too hard to BE a futures trazer instead of a slow boring stock investir without realising I am much more Talented in reading earnings reports that analysing the futures market on a short term ( which honestly for me seemed like trying to Guess the wind Direction).

All in all I feel we must stick with what que know/like and avoid costly adventures for the sake of our ego.
Sometimes I still Invest in the futures market but just 1 lot at a time without putting too much emotion on a trade. One trade every 3 days or so and thats it.
Last 2 years I am up only 14% and that reminds me of how volatile and hard this type of investment is for me.

Take care and whatever you do think about tour family and yourselves first before doing something stup.d.

Miguel
( Sorry for my English not a native speaker here)

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  #218 (permalink)
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MiguelCoast View Post
Hi All,

I had a trading "disaster" about two years ago, you can read ir at the elite fórum discussion, but to sum up, I Gave away everything I made+original investiment. Looking back my falults were:
- too much to handle at same time: new baby, my business, family affairs
- too much of a gambling approach vs investiment

- trading without knowing what I was doing and literaly too much leverage

I invested All savings I had left on stocks ( Msft, fbook, tndm diabetes, etc) and made 5 Times the original investiment in roughly two years.

Basically I was trying too hard to BE a futures trazer instead of a slow boring stock investir without realising I am much more Talented in reading earnings reports that analysing the futures market on a short term ( which honestly for me seemed like trying to Guess the wind Direction).

All in all I feel we must stick with what que know/like and avoid costly adventures for the sake of our ego.
Sometimes I still Invest in the futures market but just 1 lot at a time without putting too much emotion on a trade. One trade every 3 days or so and thats it.
Last 2 years I am up only 14% and that reminds me of how volatile and hard this type of investment is for me.

Take care and whatever you do think about tour family and yourselves first before doing something stup.d.

Miguel
( Sorry for my English not a native speaker here)

It is great that you are self-aware enough to know that you are better at stocks than futures. Get rich slowly.

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  #219 (permalink)
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Speaking of kids, I found this infographic interesting as a way to teach kids the value of money.



It was in this article:
https://www.gobankingrates.com/banking/savings-account/best-savings-accounts-for-kids/

Mike

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  #220 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
Speaking of kids, I found this infographic interesting as a way to teach kids the value of money.



It was in this article:
https://www.gobankingrates.com/banking/savings-account/best-savings-accounts-for-kids/

Mike

Thanks Big Mike. I will share this with my people. I am happy to say that we already do most of this with our kids.

Have a great weekend and stay safe!

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Finding Trading Opportunities Using Profile Charts w/Tradovate

Jan 28
 

Journal Challenge!

February
 

Battlestations!

March
     



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