This is probably the best futures.io (formerly BMT) thread I have come across.
My story goes back 8 years, covers 2 blown accounts, grappling to learn without a plan, following gurus, dropping gurus, trading alongside a demanding job, dropping the demanding job and losing money, suffering the inevitable anxieties (some occasional highs) and the rocky path that becoming a successful trader is.
Eventually reading & rereading Trading in the Zone, some hypnotherapy and a few other gems have helped me change. It has been the hardest thing I have ever had to do. in my opinion you cannot be successful without 'knowing yourself' and that is partly why it takes time. We are raised to learn all sorts of subjects, but only seldom to learn about ourselves. As a result, there has been a dramatic turnaround in the last 4-6 months.
Anyhow, back to what this thread is about. My wife knows I have blown out 2 accounts. She doesn't know the numbers. As that is capital I earned before we married, I didn't feel that she needed to know. In that way I hid losses for a long time. Its simply not a good way to live.
After the stress got to me I went to see a psychologist / hypnotherapist a few times he got me to realise that the reason I wasn't sharing was not so much for the losses but that I feared she wouldn't understand and support me in what I wanted to be. I worried she would want me to go back to a corporate job that I had escaped from. That she wouldn't understand the trials and tribulations of trading etc.
So I shared a plan with her. Covering financial goals but also life style, family and so on. She was amazingly supportive. She told me that 'if this is the life you want to live, go for it. I want you to be happy'. She also likes the fact that I work from home and can spend time with our 2 young children. Not working for a blue chip name any longer doesn't bother her. But of course there are realities to life and bills have to be paid. If trading is not doing that for you, no point kidding yourself. That is our understanding. I give her an honest monthly tally of how the month went, and I also discuss occasional good and bad days. I would like to involve her more, and am looking to do that (somehow, but not sure how).
The upshot is that I no longer feel I need to hide anything. I am fully accountable, and don't want to fool either her or me. The negative thoughts and worries have largely gone. I have a monthly target (which I have doubled so far) and the benefits of having this support are immense. As I no longer hide anything form her, why should I kid myself with a losing position that 'should turn around'? Now I just get out and move on.
In a nutshell that's my story. There are still hurdles to overcome that others have mentioned e.g. ensuring you are undisturbed at home, and not becoming lonely. For me, support from my wife and being open have been the crucial factors. After all, she has a vested interest in my success.
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I can't even begin to express how helpful these excerpts from your post were. Thank you so very much. That was eye-opening for me and I can't wait to apply psychological practices to help combat this because I definitely struggle with similar situations.
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This is an excellent post, probably one of the best on the forum and agree with everything you say. I do exactly the same as you. We have a monthly meeting and I put forward all of my metrics, including targets and mistakes. A couple of times I've had poor performance but because I've been totally upfront and she understands the business she is fully supportive. At the end of the day our spouses are our business partners. It also keeps me fully accountable as I have to explain my actions to somebody who has a vested interest .
I think one of the biggest mistakes new traders make is they tell their partners upfront they can make all of this money trading. The partner sees this as a good thing initially for security reasons. The trader then struggles and keeps the partner shut out often hiding losses. Meanwhile the partner sees no financial results and a moody trader. Furthermore she sees friends with husbands in stable jobs who tell her trading is gambling and will probably lose all their money. This can all be avoided by setting simple expectations upfront, not making any promises and keeping the partner fully informed.
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Great thread. Here's a video that covers the basic problem many traders have, as mentioned in many posts above. A little course language used, so do not watch if the F (not Fibonacci) word offends:
I would support with funding and all but I wanted to add that he cant have access to the funds other than a normal salary until he is much older. Most 18-25 year olds are not prepared for the kind of financial success that trading can lead to. I wish when I was 18, someone taught me what I know today, in terms of the markets, and also taught me how to be humble at the same time.
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Would support them fully, and with money. Trading is magnificent journey of self discovery, of humility, of open minded-ness and of the fallibility of one's own beliefs.
Those alone make me a better person, a more responsible person, allow me to remain curious engaged and focused. The only drawbacks being pain and suffering. Which I argue are not drawbacks at all, but a core element of growth.
How can I not encourage them on a such a courageous journey?
If we fail, at least, we lived in pursuit of something better than the mundane.
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I wanted to select the "support them even financially" option, but decided in the end to pick "encourage them but they have to get a job" option.
Why, and why was the choice hard?
I picked it because I know that I, at least, needed to get some real-world experience when I was that age, and it helped me enormously.
Hard, because I also wouldn't want him/her to be working for The Man when there might be a dream to be followed.
So I picked the path of being responsible, but would also want them to go out and do the wild-ass thing. Just with a little cushion, and not just what I provided, and a little maturity from being somewhat on their own first.
Bob.
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I actually did this...My son is in his late twenties now but when I got serious about trading he would hang around while I worked on my charts.
He is a pretty bright kid and now works in the USA as a geomatic engineer, married and I have a grandson I have seen only a few times...it is a 3 hour flight to go for a visit...definitely not in the plans I had for being a grandfather.
My son would never ask me for money...even as a teenager. I taught him how to save money when he was 6 years old. I only EVER gave him a $1/week allowance and stopped that at age 12. However, he always got money from grandparents, his mother, odd jobs and we opened up a "kiddy" bank account at 5 years old. He would come to the bank every Saturday (I was a traveling salesman and on weekends I looked after him...no not divorced at that time...that came 15 years later ). It was the only day I could do my banking.
The deal was...ANY MONEY HE PUT INTO the bank I would match. Put in $2, I added $2 more...one time he tried $40 (Christmas money) but I said that was too much...so he negotiated $10 which I added $10 and we did that for 4 weeks...he laughs about that but hey! He was learning to negotiate. Every month we would get out the penny jar and see how many pennies of interest he earned....visual reinforcement.
I would only pay 1/2 of any major purchase...the bike costs $150...he paid $75....He always had to have a buy-in. That included his education...I gave him a small clothing allowance 2x per year but he paid for 1/2 his tuition and all his books...graduated with no debt. (he worked as a concierge at a hotel, did an internship with an engineering firm after his 3rd year and the firm paid for his final year tuition on the condition he worked for them after the degree)...
I stopped the matching bit when he stopped coming to the bank with me (about 12 years old...not cool anymore).
When he was 7 he had $500 in the account....told him we should put it into a GIC...took him into the bank to see my personal banker...had her explain in simple terms what the interest rates were...he chose the highest. At 10 he had another $500 .... time to go again to the bank...I had the same personal banker..."I want to do this myself, Dad"...O....kay. He came out with a big smile....at 12 years old I was in the bank and the teller (they all knew him) said my son was in the other day.... "you know we don't see kids his age making investment decisions"
SO...he had a respect for money.
So when he was interested in what I did as a trader, I showed him and did not discourage him from entering the stock market.
That was 10 years ago, He still dabbles long term trading in stocks...it is a hobby for him, nothing more. He turns good coin as a geomatic engineer and is dedicated to his work. I can see him eventually getting more involved as he is older...he watches the way I have been able to retire early and use the market for my income but is in no hurry to "get rich fast"
As you can see, my son had a respect for money and a simple investment plan growing up (he had to pretend to be skint with his friends but at age 15 he had a $7000 bank account).
If I had a son who did not respect money, did not have a head for finance, did not like to move ahead on a life plan...did not have a plan of his own......I WOULD NOT encourage him to try the market...in any case he would be using his own money if he went ahead anyway...not mine.
Get a job first??? Than why trade ????
By the time they got 18 I would give them enough insigt to let them choose if they are interested in trading or not.
If yes, obviously I would support them.
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Knowing how hard trading is, it is imperative that there is a normal job first.
My son is not very proactive (as yet I hope!) nor he has a real sense of investing but if he is interested, I would not mind showing him the ropes and discuss the idea as a fall back should his career / job ends up in the tank in a worst case scenario.
If he has the same great sense with numbers, sentiments, and charts interpretation as I do - or better - may be I would consider it without a normal job first.
Alright, my 2 cents: I'm currently 24 years old a full time university student and a full time trader. Since I'm living in Europe most of the days I'm able to trade the US session.
A few years ago I ended up on a trading seminar by coincidence. The gentleman who held it was not a salesman, he wasn't promising triple digit gains on your 500usd margin account neither. He was talking about a never ending puzzle, a game that only a few can truly master. Would you not want to try?
A while later I filled my head with the idea that anybody can make an easy living trading, if only he pays a little amount of financial energy to certain individuals or gurus. So I began trading.. Basically I sat down with my parents and told them this glorious idea that I will be trading for a living! Looking back none of us really had any idea what trading really meant. So I began losing.. and began losing sleep over leaving too big positions open and losses.. It was really painful. I didn't understand it.. and then I realized that there aren't any shortcuts in this business and I'm not the special person that I thought I was. So I had to reassess.
To my biggest surprise my parents weren't upset when I came clean with my pnl. They were fully suportive eventhough i was pretty much floored emotinally because I worked so hard at it. I will always remember this! With full support I was able to learn about the real hurdles that traders (or entrepreneurs) have to face. Like risk control and self-awareness. Failure and overcoming failure. There are so many values that you can earn from this if you are looking at it from the right angle. A privilige really!
So If your child is interested let him trade. Give him or her a SIM account and tell them they are free to experience and they are really lucky because if they are able to show you dedication and self-control they can earn a small live account and so on and do not ever forget to tell them that it is alright to lose small in this game and it is alright to win as well!
“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
“There is no path, but only a fool wouldn’t follow it.”
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I pretty much agree with this, with the addition that they are pretty good decision-makers where it comes to knowing where they want to go (right now), but terrible where it comes to knowing anything about the adult world where they are going to have to pursue their dreams. (And their dreams change all the time, too.)
Adults are sort of the opposite -- we know (all too well) about the factors in the "real world" that make us want to be realistic, as we see it, about what is possible, but that may mean that we temper our expectations about what we can accomplish... often too much.
So on balance, I made the same choice in the poll that it seems you did. The kids do need a better grounding. At that age, I needed it, and got it from my parents, but I also needed to strike out on my own and do some wild-eyed stuff, which I also did, within some parental restraint.
Bob.
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Since I don't have kids of my very own but have raised three and a half young ladies [nieces] into women and one teenager [great niece] I would utilize the same approach as I did while raising them. I would first train them to see if they have the wear with all to take on this vocation and if they did I would create a contract with them, subsidize them and ensure that they repay me as they accrue profit. Then during dinner we could discuss lessons learned, eat dinner and start the next day fresh. :-)
However, if they are just "playing" at trading and lose their initial investment ... too bad so sad. I move on and they get a job and repay me that way. LMAO
But, so far none of them have shown an interest and are all working and living life ... :-)
As the old adage goes: Cash, grass or ass ... no one rides for free.
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Trading is a "loser's game". Even though as average retailers we are trading against and mostly skimming off of possibly 200 major institutions and a bunch of new HFT firms, and the myriad funds, it's still extremely difficult and success may not come easy even after years. It's already "professionally" saturated. So yes I would recommended an 18 yr old to do a regular career; and maybe take business and other personal investment classes/self-training before trying trading, at least waiting until after 25 ; always having an alternate career where retail trading is always recognized as some subset of gambling. Like older smokers had always kept smokes away from me in my younger days, I would do the same for too young traders re: starting trading as a first career. Trading is just too double-edged. And they are making it even harder to retailers, what, with the $15/month fee tacked on for no real good reason except some token public media gesture to bring justice against the "corrupt" 'speculators' when they really just shafted us retail aspirants. Who knows what's next.
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A few of my friends want to learn trading. I sent them some basic readings and I highlighted the risk and rate of success to them and explained the work involved - all of them never asked again. Only one of my friend has kept coming back to me and asking me show him more. He is now doing quite well. It's this persistence that is required IMO, so If I had kids I would discourage them on the surface and only then, despite the discouragement they will proceed to trade will I know they have at least the perseverance for success and then support them.
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I don't have children so this reply is hypothetical (to the poll question re 18yrold).
I think life is about much more than money, and so is your career.
Having done many other things before trading, I can see all the important things learned and discovered and experienced that are not within trading. Other experiences give you strengths (transferable skills) that you can bring into trading - should you choose to trade. With other experiences first one is better able to assess if trading is a good choice.
So I would share these views - but it is always up to the other person to decide - for it is their life - and I would support my children's choices in life as long as they were legal and did not hurt others.
I tell my 18 year old if you want to be a professional trader you gonna have to put in the work. I would advise him to pursue a degree in mathematics or finance and then followed by graduate degree in quantitative finance. I would support him financially as long as he made good grades. I would also tell him to try and land an internship at a trading firm or investment bank during the summer.
I would deposit money into a trading account for him for each completed semester with good grades. We would make decisions together on this trading account, stressing more of a long term approach with good money management. Once he graduated, I would tell him once he works for a firm for 5 years, he could have complete access to the trading account; he would probably about 27 or 28 at this point.
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I am quite willing to help anyone interested in trading including my children. What I have found is that most want a secret that will make them successful without doing any work.
When they find that the secret is that they have to do a lot of work they usually look for another get rich quick scheme.
Trading should be a boring job. It’s a tough job emotionally because you are dealing with your own money and you have no control over the markets. If it’s exciting you’re probably taking too much risk.
"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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I voted for full support including financially. The caveat is that I would be the risk manager for my funds. Real time and end of day mark to market monitoring. Nothing any other firm would not do on their own.
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This is better than my answer, and I think it's one of the better ones. You're right, consider yourself as operating a trading firm, and the answer gets clear.
I think its less of a consideration because I dont really care how they trade. Assuming its my kid they would have done some research on the subject and tested it out since that is what I personally do. However they may take a different approach to trading all together. The risk management allows them to survive and not go broke whatever trading strategy or style or instrument.
Risk management is a very important part of a trading plan.
You know your own children so you will know if they have the discipline to follow their plan.
How do you control risk without knowing how they plan to trade?
"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
Based on how much they lose at a stop loss to % equity of the account. How they enter or sizing or whatever is up to them. Cap the % equity they can lose per trade, per day, per month etc.
Sounds simple enough but we are talking about inexperienced traders.
How many traders blow up because they don't honor their stops. How about revenge trading?
How do you cap the losses without looking over their shoulder?
At least with a trading plan that you have reviewed you are putting the responsibily of following the plan on their shoulders. It is easy to rationalize your actions after the fact, but if you have a written action plan it is difficult to come up with a reason for not following your own plan.
I am in agreement that capital preservation should be the number one concern. I would just feel a lot more comfortable if I knew exactly how they planned to do it.
"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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It was implied i was looking over their shoulder. since i mentioned in my first post real time and daily mark to market . Set hard limits, either broker or platform wise, and alerts and your good to go. If you're doing this like a real firm then you use your risk management middle ware to lock em out and reduce/flatten their positions. pretty easy stuff to be honest.
If you don't have any of that and you get the daily report in your email like all brokers do, you see the loss greater than the agreed upon limit. The kid is fired and I pull the plug. Exactly like real life, and simple as pie.
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I have had great streaks of profit days... Some of them ranging to 15 continuous winning days and that just builds up a lot of ego and overconfidence... I know sometimes 10 15 days of amazing trading days is like an imbalance and probability has to take control because if my winning percentage is 60 and I have won 10s of trades, then I guess it is a matter of time that my personality will start to see a losing streak... Say after this streak, I lost one day and that day I trade further and make it break even somehow, that pushes me over the edge because my downfall starts there. From the next day onwards, within 2 or 3 days, I lose nearly all of the profit I had from the winning streak and if only I had a nickel every time I had done this, I would be way more profitable than my current numbers....
I have total support from Mrs. PC. Course it helps when you're making forward progress in the 'ol account balance department. She agreed to put some money from savings into my trading recently, and we're talking about putting some more in next year.
Money make ya handsome
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What were some of the reasons? Was it spending too much time, obsessing over trading? Was it financially motivated, for example the losses in your trading are effecting your daily finances?
I think it's not common to have a partner that understands all points involved in trading.
(i realize how lucky i am with a wife that is as passionate about trading as myself)
But if your partner leaves you for trading, most likely it's not the right partner
because trading can put you in moments of joy and equally in difficult moments
the right partner should be able to be supportive, or if you are loosing too much
money according to the partner, to discuss and find a middle way.
If trading is not the reason, then probably something else might become the
poblem, where trading can just be an acceleration of facts...
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I agree, and we don't have enough details to really know what happened. But if it were a long time relationship, or someone the poster felt very serious about, and they left -- it could be a signal of a bigger problem, such as not being responsible with your trading.
I have a fantastic wife who doesnt care much about money or trading. I have never seen her worry about money and she doesn't spend much either. She never complained when I quit my job and never worry about my trading business. Maybe she believes in me and know I will do the right thing OR she knows that she can manage the house without my help
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My wife says that as long as the acct is funded from side work, and not normal income, then she doesn't care.
She says to not talk about gains or losses, because she's the epitome of an OCD, risk averse, stay at home mom, and she can't handle that kind of stress.
I say, fair enough.
-Jimmy
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There is also a practical side to support. A person that does not support your habits, hobbies or passions because it is not productive, does not mean they are not a good person. They are practical. It does not mean they are not a loving person, nor does it mean that they are any less of a person that supports one despite what they do.
I prefer practicality, logic, direction and a second opinion that may shed some light on things I did not consider.
Matt
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Well I am recently married to my long time girlfriend. She has been very positive about my trading, all the ups and downs of it. From the very beginnings to my current institutional job. She is definitely very supportive but not necessarily encouraging. Let me detail this supportive in that she knows that I love trading, and have made it my career. Not only am i constantly talking about trading, but i am reading, going to school, learning and going to/hosting events which takes time to build networks in the financial community. Which takes lots of time and energy.
But when it comes down to managing my own / family members accounts. I am completely transparent. I will tell her monthly PnL's, even walk her through my though processes. It has come down to the point where she is becoming educated in trading terminology and thinking herself. She will question me and make me have to give a solid answer. In fact i love this as sometimes it means i have to evaluate something more clearly.
Only recently have family members from her side offered to have me manage some of their funds. I have treated them exactly like I would any other client. Show them my track records, explain the system, give them the risk reward metrics, and be very candid about the risks. Also I explain that what I do and their specific goals are different. So we should create something suited to them, which happens to be retirement focused. I am very clear about what could be lost and they are Mainland Chinese. So they have very unrealistic expectations like 15-25+% returns on 10% risk. Just because that is an environment that has existed for a decade or more.
But by showing them what I can do, what is realistic and that my own money is riding on similar strategies has bought them confidence in me. Look i honestly am very nervous about taking their money, they are not well to do. But they need help planning for retirement as there are no IRAs, 401ks etc... here mainland china. So I am helping them implement simple systems for long term investment through swing trading / indexing / diversification strategies.
I know this is kind of a long post but i want to bring it back to the original question. Do I have support from my family. Yes and enough confidence they will post money on me. For people who do not have something like this type of support. Maybe look at being totally candid, and be realistic. I have 0 qualms about telling anyone I lost money, I am very specific about it. But I rarely mention the gains. I show them my thoughts before hand, backtests/reports/research and ask them what they think. If they have a question i try to educate them. I am also totally willing to walk away from any account management or them, institute an account wide draw down limit where I close all positions, and let them use accounts in their own name (managed accounts).
I am not sure if the entire family managed accounts will do well or not. And if that will create additional family pressures. But so far its been ok.
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You have bravely taken the third choice. May you make trading a source of strength for yourself, despite the emotional obstacles that you have to overcome to achieve it. Take care and all the best!
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That's like Taleb's Antifragile. If something that happens can make you crack, then you're fragile like a glass falling off the table. If it makes you tougher, then you're the opposite of fragile - you're antifragile.
I have improved my life and that of my family through trading. I have built a career in trading and enjoy every minute of it. The intellectual challenge and working with some really bright people is fulfilling. Honestly the only thing that drags me down is office politics and other kind of nonsense but that is in every type of job or company setting. I still maintain passion in this area and hope to have that passion continue well into the future.
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Trading has through my efforts in this endeavor and by the huge support of my wife, who I stand in awe of, made me a more disciplined individual in life in general. A maturation process which has no end as I see it and of which I am but a sapling. I have realized the importance of getting the proper sleep, reduce stress through a number of activities (a major work in progress) but mainly focus on the spiritual nature of life and the development of its limbs and organs. Drawing attention away from the all-consuming physical plane with it never ending ceaseless immense pull. A journey not a destination. Connecting ever so infinitesimally with a higher level of existence that defines me/us as truly human apart from the material animal self/kingdom.
Now if I can only get out of this huge draw-down.....lol.... completely serious..................
Ron
...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Not directly. It will be many years before I realize my goals of true wealth building through my trading. Things like material gains, not having to work for money, and being able to do what I want with my time would certainly qualify as an improvement in anyone's life, but that's a long way off for me. But that's fine, I've got nothing but time here.
So while my trading has improved greatly the last few years, it hasn't improved my or my family's life. Yet. But it does give me optimism. I've got a plan here that can work. Just going to take time for it to come to fruition.
Money make ya handsome
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Support from wife/kids/loved ones in your trading
My wife is extremely supportive. She also knows just enough about what I do to be able to talk to me about it ~ at least enough to let me relax/reduce stress when i need somebody to talk to. She also worked in a trading company for much of her career (in an IT/Database role) so she definitely doesn't question it's potential. I don't think my older child knows or really cares exactly what I do. They definitely realize that it's our primary income, and definitely don't make fun of it though.
Has your trading improved the life of your family?
This poll hit home for me, but in ways that one might not expect.
For background, I am in my early 50’s, have a wife & no kids. My mom is still around and I have one sister.
My wife is great and supports my trading, but I have a strained relationship with my sister. Why? Money, or more precisely a perverse love of money, which as they say is the root of all evil. Certainly true in my case. My sister and her husband have done everything they can to strip my mom of her assets. I’ve been the one defending mom, and yes there are lawyers involved.
My brother in law fancies himself a master of games of chance, but I’d call him a loser. Not just because of his lack of morals, but more taxonomically, he’s a narcissistic idiot who doesn’t understand risk. If he did, he might not be so needy.
I am putting this out to you all not because I have a need to unburden myself, but more because I suspect I'm not alone. I absolutely love trading. It fits me well. I think if markets didn’t exist, I’d probably either be a mathematician or a psychologist, so I’m grateful that when I wake up I can sit down behind this silicon monster and do my thing. Yeah, even on the days that make me want to puke.
But the one thing I hate about trading is that the lure of easy money can really bring out the sh-tbirds. Big Mike has his hands full moderating this site, and more than once I’ve called vendors to task for making unreasonable claims.
But I’m also curious, and if I can want to make a ‘sub-poll’ of sorts. I feel that I’ve worked out a lot of my emotions regarding money and people around me, but it wasn’t easy. I was worth it though, as I do think it held me back. Has anyone else out there been in a similar situation or had a similar experience?
Thanks,
-Bob
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I like your signature quotes too. Doubt did creep in for a while, but not any more. In fact I'm pretty bullish on me. Got some cool new code in the works too, can't wait to share with the community when it's ready.
Also, if anyone else sees my earlier post and can relate, there's a woman out there by the name of Brene Brown who has a few TED talks as well as some books that I found very helpful & healing.
-Bob
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Trading: The one I'm creating in the present....Index Futures mini/micro, ZF
Posts: 2,260 since Nov 2011
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Your very welcome bro...
Love this quote from you....
Speaking of TedTalks. I love this one so much I tell whoever will listen about it from Dr Daniel Amen MD. Makes me wonder if you could ever get your sister to watch it and maybe investigate some regarding it contents. Obviously I don't know her at all but it seems to me she might have something going on Dr Daniel Amen has pointed point in this TedTalk....?????.... I mean when he says it can start 30 to 50 years ahead of time and decision are affected or from poor sleep or a fall/accident years ago as a kid ....some combination of events behaviors etc etc??????????
I would never want to pry into the affairs of others just offering out of a care for humankind.....
Take care my friend,
Ron
...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
The following user says Thank You to Blash for this post:
I would agree with that. I think its some human bias. Just like most people thing they are more skilled then they are. Or maybe they just have very supportive spouses in which case good on them.
I think I'm super late to this discussion. But having read your post, I felt I need to add my opinion as well. What you said it very true that in Asia, the mentality is very much more traditional than in Western countries. I am from Singapore, and the reaction when you tell people that you are a full time trader is pretty much shock and disbelief. All my friends think that I'm (a. Gambling b. wasting time c. Retired (???)). It has come to a point that I no longer have the energy to explain what it is I do to anyone, and when people ask me how I'm doing, I simply reply "OK". I have a partner, and while she doesn't understand trading at all, she is supportive of my business venture. However, as it has taken me much longer than I anticipated to be successful, her patience is also starting to get wear thing.
Another point that you mentioned is also very true in Asian culture. This thing called "Face". I can understand why you made that white lie about earning that $500. I myself have also done the same just to get people off my back. In Asian cultures, one is generally seen as a failure in life and looked down upon when they hear that you are not doing well financially in your endeavor. People in Asia still regard working for multi-national companies (e.g. AAPL, MSFT, etc...) as a very big deal and something brag worthy. And unless you are driving a Bentley, nobody wants to have anything to do with you when you tell them you sit at home all day starting at 6 monitors. Very practical, very materialistic culture. So, actually, there is one other barrier in trading other than family support, it's also culture. Most of you guys who are in Western cultures, are already considered more fortunate than us trying to make it in Asia. Some food for thought.
I wish you all the best in your trading journey.
Cheers!
The following 7 users say Thank You to KelvinKing for this post:
Trading: The one I'm creating in the present....Index Futures mini/micro, ZF
Posts: 2,260 since Nov 2011
Thanks: 7,147 given,
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I wish you all the best and look forward to hearing from you regarding your journey. Have you considered starting a trade journal here? Posting anything and everything, analysis, understandings, trades, ideas for trades, ideas for no trades,your current thoughts, problems, struggles, successes, family concerns and whatever else. I think it all really helps the entire process....A LOT. Best thing you can do IMHO is pour out your heart in your trade journal. If you are worried about your life being available on a goggle search you can just start an Elite journal and goggle can't get at it.
Keep posting I can't wait to see how you make it!
Ron
...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
Thanks Kelvin for ur comments.
It have been about 6 years since that posting in this thread, I'm still trading. I keep trading all these years despite not getting full support from my wife and not getting profits. I realized it is diificult, really difficult.... When I think I will get the money using setups number 896, I will trade real money...when my money kept losing, I change it back to sim...then when I think my setup number 1151 will be a success I switch it to real account...this process of losing money and learning new setup keep repeating itself until I loss nearly 50% of my money in the account..and I lose count of my setups, I dont put the number anymore. And I trade through a line that has 268ms+- ping from Malaysia.
My wife let me trading in peace after she found that I'm really serious about this . I told her my plan to use trading as supplementary income. I have a steady job that pay bills... Last month she told me she probably quit her stressful banking job, till she get warded in hospital, so I guess she saw my wisdom in learning trading..after all..
I change my initial objective of trading from making a lot of money to limiting losing money. After some bad moments I think I should quit and plan to use the balance money in the trading account to buy icecream...but on second thought I have been trading since 2009 and I cant quit my "habit" now. Some studies said that I will found my light after 5+- years and my time is nearly come or ended..... I also found that 95% my blog friends has stop trading and locked their blogs. Some are more veteran than me.
2 months ago I found a pattern that has potential, then I trade it live, and it begins to bring in the money. The weird thing is,, this setup is not new...I use it 2 years ago and I lose money using it. The only different is I use it in longer timeframe. The lesson ...timeframe is important, probably more important than pattern itself. I said figuratively.. time and tide (pattern) wait for no man (traders) May be my light has come now. See you all later. Happy trading.
The following user says Thank You to bwasi for this post:
I'm glad that you found something that is working, I hope you are able to succeed in that.
You also brought up another point that is very true, that the whole time frame to success thing is very much dependent on the traders on individual journey. There is no 'average' time to success. If I was following some clown for 2 years on the internet, and that clown turned out to be a clown who only trades SIM and modifies his PnL, then that's 2 years down the drain without much knowledge gained, because it was mostly rubbish. This is one of the most difficult things to explain to your partner/family as well. To them, you just wasted 2 years with no results. Most people can't wrap their heads around this because it's really not like any other job where you go to school, build the proper foundation and start on the right foot. But to you, you are starting literally all over again with hopefully some new found knowledge and clearer direction. So really, it's many 'mini' journeys within the one big journey. And it can be very demoralizing. I myself have been trading for 4 years now, but I can really say that my actual usable knowledge is only about 1 year since I started to learn how people trade in actual Prop firms (e.g. price ladders/order flow).
Cheers!
The following user says Thank You to KelvinKing for this post:
Trading: The one I'm creating in the present....Index Futures mini/micro, ZF
Posts: 2,260 since Nov 2011
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We are all about Disney.....
Went last to WDW in December 2016. Going again in less than 3 weeks, April 19 for a Disney 5k run which the kids are also doing ages 9 and 10. In July we are going for 3 weeks on a Disney Cruise (our 6th) of the British Isles where we will also go to Disney Paris.
Starting to talk about doing Disney Tokyo. Disney Hong Kong is a good bet because Disney Shanghai is causing Disney Hong Kong to suffer a bit so looking for some unfair prices to take advantage of there......
We don't have to worry at Disney about the kids being exposed to some crap. That means a ton to us and we love it. It is always super clean and well kept, so much to do it can't ever be all done and everybody always has a super amazing time.
The only thing is to have great awesome food and lots of fun you have to plan plan plan and plan some more. All the best restaurants get booked up 6 months out. So if you don't you will end up eating bad food and think it's a so so place at best. The same goes for every other thing you want to do. For example, Fast Pass, for rides need to be done way ahead of time too. This way you have zero lines and just basically walk on to whatever you want.
Luckily my wife plans all these trips and she starts 18 months out. She knows all the times to book and waits by the phone to call and book events and restaurants the minute booking opens up. I spend my time on FIO...she spends her time on the Dis Boards https://www.disboards.com/.....lol
Ron
Edit: grammar
...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
The following 2 users say Thank You to Blash for this post:
Trading: The one I'm creating in the present....Index Futures mini/micro, ZF
Posts: 2,260 since Nov 2011
Thanks: 7,147 given,
4,379
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It doesn't matter what we do on a vacation a holiday. The entire point is intense focus on one another. With daily life removed from the equation and substituted with a different environment we adventure in these new surroundings as one. This restores, recreates and invigorates our relationships. This is the reason. Healthy family life is its product.
Some kind of trip big or small, it does not matter, every 4 months or average.
I can answer for myself - just becouse I dont have any family :-D.So answer is in question itself.Asking - when you was on holiday will change answer dramatically
The vacation poll is interesting. We strive to take two months off every summer (still trading, but in a different country), with only a little bit of trading and other work activity happening. We usually visit family at some point in the year, though that is not always vacation.
Mom is a (mostly) full-time trader and I allocate about 50% of my work time to it. So trading is a family 'culture' thing for us. It's what we do. The kids don't quite get it yet (6.5 and 8.5 years of age), though the oldest is showing an interest and they are generally respectful of our trading space. They will both learn how to trade soon enough.
Our trading goes with us when we travel, though we don't trade all the time. You don't need to trade all the time to be profitable. Vacation and time away is good for the mind, body and spirit, and is good for trading. Being self-employed for nearly 15 years now, I could (and used to) lament not making money while you are on vacation or you can understand the importance of not working for while. Otherwise you get caught in the trap of "Oh my god, this vacation cost me $10k in lost profits!" And thinking like that makes you want to crawl in a little hole and whimper.
Bottom line for us: work and life balance is very important.
The following 2 users say Thank You to vmodus for this post:
My family does not understand how hard, difficult, or stressful trading can be.
I'm not sure what they think, I am told if I want to make money, go get a real job.
I thought if I tried to show them what I do and how I do it it would help, it doesn't interest them at all, so I don't talk about it at all. It hasn't gotten to the point of leaving the house to trade, it just isn't talked about at home.
Keep things as simple as possible, but no simplier. Albert Einstein
If you can't explain it to an eight year old it's to complicated
The following 2 users say Thank You to ollie for this post:
Ditto Ollie - my family does't understand and doesn't want to. The early hours are inconvenient for them but largely ignored. Occasionally a visitor may ask what a futures contract is but then they all revert to their Facebook centric lives. Surprising since it pays for more than 50% of their easy life. I don't really feel isolated or set upon, just puzzled by their indifference. All in all NBD.
My partner is very supportive, and I tell her what I'm doing but she doesn't really make any effort to understand the terms I use. She just knows how many hours I am putting in.
She does NOT know when I make or lose money, unless it's an amount that makes my emotional reaction obvious. Then I'll tell her.
Respect !..this is the 1st time i heard about a 'trading family' in a forum..Normally I heard doctors family, lawyers family..
Its has been quite a while since the last time I visited this forum and thankfully i'm still have interest in trading..Now, trying to code my setup to semi-auto trading so i have more quality time with my family
The following user says Thank You to bwasi for this post:
My wife sees how extremely hard I work at my trading and supports me 100%. I share with her on my winning days but I don't she she could take the stress of some of the bad days. She has no clue about how it works or methods. She does know that I sweat blood though on tough days.
Full time ES trader, Early 60s age, Retired but not
The following user says Thank You to MShead for this post:
They sort of do in that they supported at first >>> thinking it was all super super easy and very straight-forward and would only need like 3 MONTHS TO figure everything out! Then when they saw that it was not like that they started to get kind of HOSTILE about it.
ALSO >>> this was before there were things like JIGSAW TRADING DOM! And before other awesome programs came out! Now there are ACTUAL GREAT PROGRAMS available >>> SOME EVEN FREE!!
Now there is also awesome programs AND classes on how to use the DOM and order flow... etc.. etc.. etc..
So there is actual good stuff available now to the small individual trader that before there wasn't.
So the initial part of my trading was kind of supported.... but then when it wasn't just super instant magical >>> some stress and strife started coming out! :O
And also >>> they started to give me some stress and strife even though they never really contributed ANYTHING. They didn't help research methods, programs, and instruments to trade. So I thought it was pretty damn ridiculous when some people give you problems === when they themselves do not help at all for that person to win.
Messed up >>> but I am super sure they will want the benefits of the trading as I am starting to win now. They sure will probably want some of those benefits.
The following user says Thank You to OpalDragon for this post:
From time to time my kids are painting red/green candles in my office . They realize my work is what allows us to go to these ski vacations, to travel to different countries, etc.
My wife also realize it. But for some women's reason she hate my job.
The following user says Thank You to icog for this post:
Fortunately I am very blessed to have the life-long love plus different-Trading experience, & therefore total support of my Loved one.
Soon, hopefully I will regain my Trading courage...
====
ps: just Noticed these 393 emoticons & they are a scream, lol
Had i known about this Forum in June 2017 I would still be Intact...
.
First post here.
I have an agreement with my wife to tell her how my trades went each day. She wants to know and be informed. So today my stop loss was hit and so i told her what i lost. Now she is super frustrated with me and doubting me and is moping around and getting upset and slamming doors and just left the house. I figured out the reason for my poor trade and have made adjustments to my strategy. But she doesnt get it and every time i have a loss and fix my strategy to make it better, all i can say to her is say, i think i figured it out so i can do better next time. And she says thats what you always say... And you still lost.
But each loss has been for a different reason and i am learning from my mistakes but it doesnt look that way to her.
Now she is saying things like she is questioning decisions she made to trust me etc. Etc. Basically trying to save the relationship etc. Anyone have any advice?
The following user says Thank You to ClearTrades for this post:
That's ludicrous imo, as long as you're getting better and not putting non-expendable income at risk. I assume she wants to know your trades so she can support and communicate with you, not because she doesn't trust you. Make sure she understands that what you are doing is not gambling but is difficult and will take time. I think there's either a lack of clear communication or a lack of inherent trust, both of which can prove disastrous. Take some time off and talk to her and explain your process. Only use what you can afford to lose, and make sure she truly understands this. Make sure you are looking at yourself objectively as well, that you are truly getting better and not consistently losing without real progress. I have experienced something similar; just make sure you are communicating as well as you can.
imagine all the people living life in peace
The following user says Thank You to xevanchan for this post:
So basically at this time we have allocated 25% of our life savings to the trading account. We can "afford to lose" it but it is really painful to see a drawdown. I can see where she is coming from because the loss represents like a months salary. That cannot keep happening in a row...
Edit: i believe i am getting better. But basically im at breakeven atm.
If it's painful, then you can't afford it. You need to get your head out of your ass immediately. If you think she's pissed after you have a bad day, what's going to happen if you lose a larger portion of your combined life savings? It's not going to end well for your marriage would be my guess. You willing to risk it? Seems like a bad trade.
The following 5 users say Thank You to TheShrike for this post:
my suggestion would be to explain things to her in a very elementary lvl and explain the risks, I use to tell my girlfriend oh i lost $900 and she would be like omg thats so much are you ok ect ect and once i explain that sometimes i lose $900 and some times i make $2000, having a long term journal showing that you make your money back it normally helps the other half not get stressed out. Now when i say i had a red day she just gives me positive feed back because she knows there will be green days eventually.
I would also suggest that you tell her that she is putting a ton of stress on you and stressed traders aren't usually good traders no offense, also if you need her to support you in some other way then i would suggest telling her that. Example, my girlfriend knows that i hate making breakfast in the morning and its just one thing that for some reason i stress about so when she can shes makes be food before the session.
These conversations can be hard and some times very awkward but in the long run it helps each party
or you can tell her to kick rocks and start banging strippers (joking)
-P
"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
The following 3 users say Thank You to MiniP for this post:
I don't think that's necessarily true; you can have painful drawdowns and afford it; all my drawdowns suck, but they happen. What's worrying me is that a drawdown represents a month salary. If you're really at B/E, thats fine but if not, and even if you are, you should scale down to one contract. I would be hard pressed to lose a month's salary on one contract in a few trades. Maybe consider trading the e-micros when they come out.
imagine all the people living life in peace
The following 3 users say Thank You to xevanchan for this post:
May be my light has come now. See you all later. Happy trading.
