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Being Undercapitalized - How to fix it
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Being Undercapitalized - How to fix it

  #11 (permalink)
10 out of 10
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Big Mike View Post
Those guys that turned a $1,000 account into $1,250 at the end of the year are doing better than most other traders who are either breakeven, or usually in the hole, after a year of trading.

Mike

I totally agree that they are successful in the sense that they are making money trading in a sustainable fashion.

Unfortunately, most aspiring traders would not have the patience to grow that $1,000 account at 25% a year into something that would replace their current income or make them "rich" - which is certainly the goal for most traders. For a point of reference it would take this account 26 years at that rate to make a US median income of approximately $50k per annum.

Also, like all things time spent trading has an opportunity cost. What if they instead invested some of time they are currently willing to work (4 hours scalping currently) into working overtime, odd jobs, etc.? For example if they worked at just $10/hr for an extra 3 hours a day for the first 4 years (and then quit the 2nd job) before they started to trade they would reach their goal of making $50k per annum in just 14 years.

What if they were willing to do even more like find a way to save $1,000 a month (very doable for most American middle-class house holds)? This cuts things down even further - achieving their goal within 9 years.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that one cannot trade with a small account (as I indicated in the first post). However, most beginning traders won't trade small and reasonably (as you suggested) because the payoff is too far away for them to visualize. On the other hand, if they also learn to cut their expenses and spend their time wisely working a second job/side hustle as needed, they can drastically reduce the time it takes for them to reach their financial goals making it more likely that they will trade sanely. At least, that strategy is working for me

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  #12 (permalink)
Site Administrator
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eudamonia View Post
I totally agree that they are successful in the sense that they are making money trading in a sustainable fashion.

Unfortunately, most aspiring traders would not have the patience to grow that $1,000 account at 25% a year into something that would replace their current income or make them "rich" - which is certainly the goal for most traders. For a point of reference it would take this account 26 years at that rate to make a US median income of approximately $50k per annum.

Also, like all things time spent trading has an opportunity cost. What if they instead invested some of time they are currently willing to work (4 hours scalping currently) into working overtime, odd jobs, etc.? For example if they worked at just $10/hr for an extra 3 hours a day for the first 4 years (and then quit the 2nd job) before they started to trade they would reach their goal of making $50k per annum in just 14 years.

What if they were willing to do even more like find a way to save $1,000 a month (very doable for most American middle-class house holds)? This cuts things down even further - achieving their goal within 9 years.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that one cannot trade with a small account (as I indicated in the first post). However, most beginning traders won't trade small and reasonably (as you suggested) because the payoff is too far away for them to visualize. On the other hand, if they also learn to cut their expenses and spend their time wisely working a second job/side hustle as needed, they can drastically reduce the time it takes for them to reach their financial goals making it more likely that they will trade sanely. At least, that strategy is working for me

I agree. But this is why most traders fail. They have unrealistic expectations, and then trade them into the ground.

Mike

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  #13 (permalink)
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paps View Post
Wow nice guys. I trade only ES and some equity..ETFs. This is off topic.
thanks Mike. I googled micro futures. Nifty is something which came up. I always wanted to be in Indian markets. Now to figure out how to get the symbol onto my platforms

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

The symbol for Interactive Brokers is NIFTY50 (also for NinjaTrader).


paps View Post
Thnx Mike. I want only insight into India via nifty. I wish we could have seen the full nifty from here. My main stay will only be ES.
yes you are correct Volume is a big issue. Will explore how to get view on full nifty.

Thnx
s


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


One tick of the NIFTY50 futures is Rs.50 i.e. less than $1 per tick which is what probably makes it attractive for you.

There used to be a mini-NIFTY contract where one tick was Rs.20 ie. approx 30 cents but that has been discountinued to discourage smaller investors from trading futures:

NSE to stop issuing mini derivative contracts from February 1 - Economic Times

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  #14 (permalink)
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Thnx iqgod. I will mesg u privately. Else will get flamed as this thread is not towards nifty. I just want to be able to see charts on nifty light up my screens. I do not even need to trade it.
Many thnx
Cheers
S

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  #15 (permalink)
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Thanks for this thread, I'm currently going through the same - it's just not worth trading with under 25k as the opportunity cost of trading is simply not worth it. There are other activities which might make me X times the amount trading does at this stage(!). There are two ways to trade professionaly. Either start with 250k+ or get into a prop trading firm. The option number 1 is more likely to take place.

I.

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  #16 (permalink)
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Trading Psychology and Fear of Loss is directly correlated with the amount of money you have available to trade....

Its unfortunate but emotional control and let your trades ride has a direct correlation with the amount of money you are willing to lose.... Many times we cut our trades short from potential in order to protect the little money we made.

We fall pray to what the value of money means to us.......

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  #17 (permalink)
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eudamonia View Post
Well better late than never

What kills me is that it is relatively easy to find good robust trading methods that make 25% a year with modest drawdowns if you are well capitalized ($100k plus). I found these systems within the first 2 years of trading but rejected them because of lack of capitalization.

If I had started saving in day 1 (been working on or trading for 10 years) I would have had $100k by year 4 and with a "good enough" trading system would now have a seven figure account (assuming 25% a year compounding). Think about that.

Everyone is shooting to make 100% or 1000% a year but who cares if you are trading a $10k account? Shoot to save up a 6 or 7 figure account and then "only" make 15-25% on it. Most of us are just ignoring how long it takes to be successful in this game and the power of compound interest.

@eudemonia

thanks,

thanks for taking a brick, a 2 by 4, no a 3 by 6 and whacking everyone who ventured to come to this thread with a dose of reality.

if this is the confessional, and I'm on bent knee, then here's what I would add.

I had to stop hating the day of small beginnings. Simply put, with a small account (as you mentioned, under $25k), and a micro account (somewhere below even that level) one has to appreciate what a 2% gain means. One has to appreciate a $30 winning day, and build upon that. One has to appreciate a $120 winning day and build upon that. One has to appreciate a $840 winning trade and an overall $240 winning day (i.e. trading losses against that outsized gainer).

One coach suggested trading 1 car until one's account was well over $5,000 before moving to 2 car trades. That was his advice, and for what its worth, if the shoe fits, you must ....

So many traders sim101 trade for months, quarters, years even. Try to make that time count by learning vehicles in ones reach (emini terms). I used to chaff at $5 tick / contracts, in lieu of the $10, $12.50 (and never the $25 level) contracts, until reality beset and I reminded myself from my trading notes, that one has to start small and build up.

Take a lesson from the fishes, and go to school everyday. One has to swim with the minnows before gliding with the sharks!

good trading to you all!

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  #18 (permalink)
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Saw this on youtube.


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  #19 (permalink)
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torroray View Post
Saw this on youtube.


The idea espoused in the first 10 minutes of this video is that you can trade risking only $100 (2%) on a $5k account to trade the ES, mini Dow, etc. is exactly the type of wrong headed thinking that destroys accounts or at best sentences the beginning trader to thousands of hours of fruitless work and for what? If the aspiring daytrader survives this stage they might be taking home $300 a month for their efforts.

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  #20 (permalink)
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yea, it's unfortunate that so much of what's out there that's supposed to be helpful is actually most helpful to those on the other side of the trade.

When I started learning futures a long time ago on the sim, I used to use ridiculously tight stops, like 3 ticks. Most of the time I would experience a simulated loss - but here's the kicker: when the trade actually did work (market turned around on a dime), it was the best feeling in the world. For that moment the trade ran, I felt super-human, like I could see the future. So I kept doing it, chasing a good feeling and mentally repressing the losses that of course, do add up & result in a negative account. I thought this was the way to do it, trade very mechanically (this was also back when I was using indicators to get "the signal!") with "tight risk management" via the microscopic stop.

Funny how now I trade pretty much opposite of how I once did, and with opposite results too.


Last edited by Eric B; December 5th, 2013 at 01:51 PM.
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