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Dream Maker - From nothing to 100% pure day trading living
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Dream Maker - From nothing to 100% pure day trading living

  #11 (permalink)
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@grahamg, I find this an interesting thread, and a refreshing take on things. Cheers, and keep it up.

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  #12 (permalink)
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grahamg View Post
Now THAT is an analogy I really like and haven't considered. I have slept on the side of a mountain on the ice with a mate and guide before and that was the toughest challenge of my life.. and we still didn't make the top (Guide woke up with altitude sickness..)

STILL - Why can't we hear the story of the person that DID make the top of the mountain. Summiters love reading and hearing about Sir Edward and other climbers tails of how they defied all the odds and got to the top, cause they are dreamers. Yet to hear an account of the one trader that started out with the same tools, being DOM (charts even) and Mouse and clicked their way to success on their own is unheard of in the online world. Closest to this would be the story of a successful prop trader from scratch.. but still not same as the solo mountaineer. Are we saying that he/she doesn't exist? Thus the comments on 'what does it matter? it only matters if you can do it?' .. Defending our foolish pursuits (well mine anyway). Whats wrong with a bit of inspiration?

Lets define success as trading providing the only income you have, and this income being sufficient to comfortably support your lifestyle, and has done for at least a year. Lets define the prerequisite for reaching this success, of our dreamer - as having quit fulltime work with <100k savings to trade and live with. Perhaps taking casual work for bread and butter if needs be, but trading being 100% priority. Most of the online seekers probably haven't jumped off that ledge yet - of quitting their bread and butter and future providing jobs.

My scenario is not quite as bad as this prerequisite, that poor sonofa.. as I have an engineering business I lean on when money is tight.

I sent you the information on Trembling Hand Trader....the Australian SPI trader who taught himself to scalp the SPI when it was liquid enough, he's now trading for Propex in Melbourne and would have to be one of the largest HSI traders in Australia.

Still trades from home, still pretty humble too.

XS

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  #13 (permalink)
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grahamg View Post
Earn more than a doctor? An engineer can earn 300k a year here easy if they fly in fly out. Thats my benchmark. Just need a Bahamas bank account.

300k in which dollar? If that's American than I'm moving to Australia ...

I know of 4 people that make a living off trading. They all started out differently, one was a broker, one an IT guy, one was a foreigner that came to America on a bet with his friend that he couldn't make a million bucks in a coupe years. He fell into trading some how and turned a 10k account into 380k in futures trading. This was after he was very successful in trading stocks so obviously not the norm, he was no spring chicken, he picked up futures and everything clicked

I know that trading for a living is attainable as all 4 of these people are doing just that and they have all been a mentor to me in one fashion or another. I seem to have found my niche and its working well on sim. I need to finish up my out of state work commitments then its onto a combine for me

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  #14 (permalink)
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DionysusToast View Post
(...)
I think if you want to be very rich, then a business might be a better idea than trading to get there.

Why is a business a better idea, and how do you define 'very rich'? I think that, if you want to be very rich (i.e., a multi-millionaire), trading is the best idea (note: that doesn't mean that I'm trading for that reason). But compared to regular businesses:
(a) trading has higher profit margins (there is no need to rent a expensive shop location or have a staff of expensive engineers or programmers),
(b) more efficient capital usage (no need to buy goods, have them on your shelves for 2 months, sell them, and wait another month before the customer pays his invoice),
(c) more efficient management (it takes less energy and time than a business owner who has to manage employees, make customers happy, and do acquisition of new customers),
(d) larger scalability if you trade liquid markets (while, if you are a regional business owner, there is a limit to how much people will visit your store or goods you can ship without incurring high shipping costs),
and I'd even say that (e) trading has less different sources risk to manage (primarily model risk and market risk as the most important), while a business owner has a wider range of risks which are also harder to manage (employee risk of fraud or stealing IP, customer risk of not paying or bad word-of-mouth, economic risk when you just started a new factory and sales plummet, and so on).
Of course, the risks in trading are larger, but come from less different sources which are also easier to manage yourself. For example, if you trade liquid instruments, you can quickly close a position if your risk management dictates that. While if you are a business owner with a factory and people on the payroll, it's much harder to quickly scale back when things don't go well.


artemiso View Post
Many of the richest in Netherlands made their wealth from the ground up in trading. (They run IMC, Optiver, and Flow Traders, among others.) There's one Australian who traded from ground up, if you discount pooling his bonuses at his proprietary trading job to start Tibra. He employs roughly 220 today. (...)

True. Some dozen traders have made it on the Quote 500 list (the Dutch equivalent of the Forbes' wealthy list). See here for their estimated wealth: Who’s who in the 1% - amsterdamtrader (with figures, obviously, in euro's).


grahamg View Post
(...)
Lets define success as trading providing the only income you have, and this income being sufficient to comfortably support your lifestyle, and has done for at least a year. Lets define the prerequisite for reaching this success, of our dreamer - as having quit fulltime work with <100k savings to trade and live with. Perhaps taking casual work for bread and butter if needs be, but trading being 100% priority. Most of the online seekers probably haven't jumped off that ledge yet - of quitting their bread and butter and future providing jobs.

Isn't that a narrow definition of "success"? Sure, this thread is about making (a lot of) money, so this would be a adept definition of "financial success", but I wouldn't go as far as saying that overall success is measured only by someone's bank account and income.

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  #15 (permalink)
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grahamg View Post
OK - this topic hasn't been approached from this angle so give it a chance.

Threads have discussed "Is it possible?", "Should you give up?", "95/5" - all stuff that those very folks wanting to make it against these odds, will read plenty about.

Can Anyone Make A Living Day Trading - Maybe
Are the odds 95/5? - If you're lucky
Should You Give Up? - More than likely
10000 Hours - Or a lifetime

I get it! You get it! I reckon by far most of us asking these questions to the internet forum trading gurus would still, against all advice, be going ahead, trying to make a living from day trading under-capitalized, under-supported, and under-skilled right?

My question then is - is there any model day trader out there that has made it, from nothing to something? If you have, or have a reputable account of someone who has then please lets hear it!! All this reading about how the trading world is against you wears one down. I have stared into the DOM 5 hours a day every day this year, still aren't making any money, and still hopeful as ever that I'll come out the other side soon enough, scalping hundred lots a few hours a day from my yacht, island hopping in the Whitsundays.

99% of fulltime retail self-supported day traders I am guessing are that way by circumstance. Probably started with loads of $$$, or knew someone in real life that could show them how, or found a way to support themselves by the trading industry etc, and are providing advice from that perspective. Probably most of those that claim they 'made it' would crumble if they had to pay their rent out of their trading account. The other conundrum is that even if someone says they've made it, all you have is some text on an internet forum from those who say, who never seem to be willing to show it. Not having a dig here, just how it is. I would love to see someones cumulative profit chart and maybe a brokerage statement once in a while showing mega coin banking.

So at risk of turning into more of a rant, just after some motivating material here for the troops, if anyone's got the goods.

Thank you.


PS Please feel free to post the usual reality shaking comments. I like the idea that we get what we focus on though - so why not focus on the dream and not the obstacles for a change?

I need you to define what "nothing" is and "something" is from the phrase, "from nothing to something". In short to answer your question, yes it is possible. I went from my full time job as a 9 to 5 business analyst to trading futures intra-day. I do not own an island nor do I have a 15 garage mansion with ferraris in every color. However, trading has given me the freedom to be my own boss and have more time for important things in my life. I make comparably the same amount as I do as when I worked my day job but I just trade in the mornings now and have the rest of my day to do whatever I want. I guess I could just increase the number of contracts I trade and make more money, but why change something that's working. Sorry if this post is a bit different from what you're asking for, which is the 20-figure bank statements, but just shedding some light into a full time retail trader's life with no formal training.

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  #16 (permalink)
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Jura View Post

Isn't that a narrow definition of "success"? Sure, this thread is about making (a lot of) money, so this would be a adept definition of "financial success", but I wouldn't go as far as saying that overall success is measured only by someone's bank account and income.

"Success" as a day trader. Its just a benchmark definition. Feel free to make as much money as you want! You aren't considered to be a successful day trader if you can't pay for your next meal with your profits. Or pay for everything you need to live comfortably for a year.

The leap into freedom is the exchanging of risk for reward. This can be done only by shifting from tension to ease, and that can be done only when one perceives the reward and not the risk. That you won't win all the time has nothing to do with it - that's life, that's the [stock] market. The trying itself is freeing. And being free has its own reward - Justin Mamis, The Nature of Risk
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  #17 (permalink)
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grahamg View Post
Thanks Mr Tharp.

Reality shaking.

Trading success is more likely I think than Golf Success... less likely than swimming the english channel. Tangible comparisons?

Sarcasm aside, the point remains. Hopefully you gave it a bit of thought before quipping.

It is no doubt inspirational to hear of successful traders who are making it on their own. However someone showing you proof (brokerage statements, as you mentioned), is extremely unlikely and in the end, irrelevant.

Anyway, this thread is largely about inspiration. So for me personally, I believe the likes of Big Mike, TigerTrader, PrivateBanker and other respected members of the forum are successful trading. I have never, will never, and have no interest in seeing proof. But what they post and their clear understanding of markets is extremely inspirational.

Good luck with your journey. Maybe one day it will be you providing us with your brokerage statements showing your success (or is that private?)

Diversification is the only free lunch
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  #18 (permalink)
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Darvas...?

@Graham, I read Darvas's book .. it provided that initial inspiration - all details, figures and even the trades included.. although you have to do the mapping in your mind as the landscape of trading and the available technologies now are different from his days.. you can easily find the "story" thru Google. Good luck ..

cheers,
K

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  #19 (permalink)
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grahamg View Post
Now THAT is an analogy I really like and haven't considered. I have slept on the side of a mountain on the ice with a mate and guide before and that was the toughest challenge of my life.. and we still didn't make the top (Guide woke up with altitude sickness..)

STILL - Why can't we hear the story of the person that DID make the top of the mountain. Summiters love reading and hearing about Sir Edward and other climbers tails of how they defied all the odds and got to the top, cause they are dreamers. Yet to hear an account of the one trader that started out with the same tools, being DOM (charts even) and Mouse and clicked their way to success on their own is unheard of in the online world. Closest to this would be the story of a successful prop trader from scratch.. but still not same as the solo mountaineer. Are we saying that he/she doesn't exist? Thus the comments on 'what does it matter? it only matters if you can do it?' .. Defending our foolish pursuits (well mine anyway). Whats wrong with a bit of inspiration?

Lets define success as trading providing the only income you have, and this income being sufficient to comfortably support your lifestyle, and has done for at least a year. Lets define the prerequisite for reaching this success, of our dreamer - as having quit fulltime work with <100k savings to trade and live with. Perhaps taking casual work for bread and butter if needs be, but trading being 100% priority. Most of the online seekers probably haven't jumped off that ledge yet - of quitting their bread and butter and future providing jobs.

My scenario is not quite as bad as this prerequisite, that poor sonofa.. as I have an engineering business I lean on when money is tight.

I read a great book once called "The New Market Wizards" by Jack D Schwager and it's basically interviews with people who have made trading (in one form or another) their living. It's a fascinating read as it shows how many ways there are to be successful in this endeavor, and how there are people who have made it to the top, or at least high enough to call it a nice view.
I think though, that the reason we don't hear a lot about those who have made it in retail, is that Retail is such a private pursuit. No one knows you're climbing the mountain except your broker and the people you tell. Your broker can't tell anyone. And anyone you tell is left with how credible they feel you are (which on the Internet can be challenging).
It's the old internet phrase:"pics or it didn't happen". No matter how knowledgeable or credible you may sound, someone will be willing to push it to the "show me your statements or you're full of it" limit, and no one wants to deal with that.
That said, I think there are quite a few on futures.io (formerly BMT) that have made it, and several others who are halfway there.
The other thing to consider, is that maybe Retail futures trading isn't the top of the mountain. I daytrade YM (currently sim-ing) so I can eventually move up to GC or possibly swinging ES. After that, I'd like to have the capital to try spread trading. All of that so I can pour my money into a diversified investment portfolio.
Successfully daytrading is the means not the end for me. And the day I quit my job to trade full time is the day I have enough passive income from non-trading investments to cover my expenses.

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  #20 (permalink)
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DarkPoolTrading View Post

Good luck with your journey. Maybe one day it will be you providing us with your brokerage statements showing your success (or is that private?)

Sure. Not sure why so caught up on this proof thing. Check my journal - accumulated profit as spat out by NT for instance is something like that shows someones trading behaviour more than anything. Even if they make it up. You can see their drawdowns, overall sucess etc.

Thanks for your input. Have these guys worked from the ground up to make their trading success? Something to Nothing - I defined as the prerequisite starting with under 100k, starting day trading and being successful enough to make a living from it. I am guessing a lot of the dreamers are in this position. Noone in the online trading community have left a footprint suggesting they've done it.

Probably irrelevant in some eyes whether they did it from scratch or not. That wasn't point of thread.

The leap into freedom is the exchanging of risk for reward. This can be done only by shifting from tension to ease, and that can be done only when one perceives the reward and not the risk. That you won't win all the time has nothing to do with it - that's life, that's the [stock] market. The trying itself is freeing. And being free has its own reward - Justin Mamis, The Nature of Risk
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