Time to Give Up

October 25th, 2015, 09:21 PM

gregoryalexandr

From my experience, people who have become very successful have always thought of taking their hobby and making it their full time career. Who wouldn't want to do that? Making their hobby into a stream of income....Something like BMT into Futures.io, a hobby, can we call it that?

I'm not sure about the context with which you are using the word "hobby". I can assure you that trading cannot be seen as a hobby. It may be something that you are passionate about, but it is definitely a hobby. Trading is a high performance career. It is a business in a highly competitive and fast-paced industry.

Now, don't get me wrong. Passion and hobby are not the same thing. I don't pursue my passions as a way to support my lifestyle. There are many aspiring and passionate actors, singers, artists, interior designers, architects and others out there. But if your passion is not something that is in demand and that society is willing to pay you for, then find another career.

On the other hand, pursuing a career WITH a passion is a great way to go. You have to be passionate about trading. It is demanding of our time, energy, emotions and funds. However, things that we are passionate about are not necessarily a hobby. We choose what we want to be passionate about. Just don't make trading into a hobby.

Cheers,
FT71

October 31st, 2015, 07:42 AM

Hello everybody,

Very important his previous post.

I believe the big problem too is the people want to make money very faster. It�s a big mistake. The psychology is very important, many people fail at this point. Bye...

Big Mike

BTW, I should complete that by saying that while willpower alone is not enough to be profitable, it is a prerequisite. You cannot succeed without it.

Some people think that their willpower to succeed is their edge, because they will make this work no matter what. I view that as more of a prerequisite than an advantage over the other professional traders.

It is always helpful to know who you are trading against and see how you compare.

Mike

November 3rd, 2015, 12:27 PM

There is also one very important point - choose RIGHT market for YOU.Not the most liquid,not the most popular - but that RIGHT one.The one who is not too big,the one who has strong trend's and which let you FEEL it.Most of people start with ES/YM/NQ or some Forex one's - and that it's like a financial suicide even if you are not undercapitalized.Beginers with no knowledge who try to go into the most competitive market in the world...

When is time to give up and be sure that this is not for you ? Stricle just when you feel bad after logging to trading account...

December 18th, 2015, 08:22 AM

I�ve been thinking about the thread since I saw it a few months ago. Looking back at my 6+ years� experience and realising I haven�t yet been able to succeed, I thought whether it was time for me to give up too, but �

I have come a very long way from perceiving that success in trading is down to putting a few indicators with fancy names on a chart and becoming a billionaire in a year, taking large loans and almost losing everything with one click of the mouse, to studying the internals of markets, the volume profile, what market participants are doing, where the value is, why and how effectively the market participants defend a certain price level, where the sellers or buyers are trapped, where spoofing occurs and why, etc. etc.
I.e through trial and error I have slowly realised that trading requires you to understand the market and I don�t even mention getting your head in the right state. At a very primitive level you have to be able to understand why at a local farmers� market tomatoes can cost 3 pounds per kilo in the morning, 2.30 at the peak time and 1.50 before close. You have to understand why all vendors sell at around the same price, and why one re-seller may want to park at the market in a huge empty truck, but announce to all sellers the truck is full with tomatoes.

Now, if I continued with my previous approach of looking for a holy grail indicator, then yes, I should go do something else. As an example, my friend�s brother has been trying to trade FTSE100 for a few years. According to him, he was very close to success, he had his �secret� strategy of trading during market open. Then I found out he lost around 150000 British pounds so far (and that�s what he said he lost, the amount is probably even higher than that). The guy�s wife doesn�t know it, the guy�s parents don�t know it, the guy is b**ls deep in debt and he still thinks he is close to success. Clearly he should stop trading immediately, check into his nearest hospital and get his head removed from his anus.

I do strongly believe that it is possible to learn anything and our brain is like a muscle that requires stimulation in order to learn a skill. Coupled with our desire to learn and to put in the hours needed to acquire one skill or the other, it is possible to become very proficient in many fields. Trading is similar, but requires an approach that is radically different to studying exact science, because contrary to what many trading courses are teaching, it is anything but the exact science. Although it is based on the same foundations � theory and practice � I think the ratio of practice required in trading is much higher than theory. With this ratio it is much closer to art - you can spend a week learning the technique, then spend 10 years developing your vision and being able to gain from it.
And that�s where I think the problem lies for many people who start trading (including myself a few years back), they buy a book with a few carefully chosen charts, leading them to believe that memorising a bunch of candlestick patterns or putting a line on the chart is going to bring them success in a year. They then backtest for a month, put their life savings together, setup a highly leveraged account and�go bust. And unfortunately the vast majority of books and courses out there are fuelling that, putting new traders in this perpetual cycle of searching for an indicator, switching systems, then losing money. Unless some traders re-think their approach to trading, they will be better off to do something else.

So, again, it depends on how you approach trading. As someone said on this forum, if you want to gamble, go to a casino, at least you will get some nice drinks and have some nice time playing.

December 24th, 2015, 04:34 AM

Big Mike

I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

For every good trader out there, there are 100 more who think they can just copy someone else's method and start making money or join some trading room or download some expensive set of indicators, and be profitable.

Most of these guys have completely unrealistic expectations. They expect to take $10,000 and turn it into $100,000 at the end of the year, for example, even though they have no track record of performance or gains.

These people have no plan. They constantly blame their computer, their trading platform, their broker, their wife, their kids for missing trades or mistakes during a trade. They have no idea what to focus on or where to start.

And worse, most of them are unwilling to do the work. Yes, there are people for which that does not apply who are truly trying their best. But they are few and far between. Most people that are struggling aren't even willing to maintain a journal. Most people aren't willing to set realistic expectations. Most people aren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

On top of that, most of these guys aren't in a position in their life to even give trading a chance. Examples would be that they just lost their job. That is the worse time to start trading. Other examples would be that they have a job but no real savings, no money to burn in trading education expenses (and I don't mean from a trading room or buying a product). Worse still, many of these guys have no support from their wife or girlfriend because as you can imagine, they are losing money and also spending a lot of "free time" with trading instead of with their loved ones or kids. This is an impossible situation to put yourself in and expect good results.

So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on.

In fact, a lot of times my advice to these guys is to move on. Stop trading. Let's be real, if you are undercapitalized, unwilling to do the real work, and have no support from your family -- you aren't in a position to be a good trader.

But I also have to be honest, some times when I tell someone to stop trading, what I am really wanting them to do is come back and tell me NO, they will not stop, they are going to make it work. I mean if you really want this, then fight for it. But as I've said countless times before -- willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable.

We know that most people "give up" once they blow all or a significant portion of their initial deposit at a broker. This usually happens in less than 90 days according to brokers I've talked to. Most of these people aren't a part of any trading forum, and those that are, most of them are not participating, do not have a journal, have not taken time to ask questions or formulate a plan, etc. Again let's be honest: if anyone had taken the time to formulate a plan and prepare, they would not have allowed themselves to blow an account in 90 days.

For the rest, the ones that are members of futures.io (formerly BMT), I find that the overwhelming (close to 100%) of people that are struggling are the ones that have zero posts. I've come to look at this as an important metric. The ones that are uninvolved in the forum, for whatever reason, are going to be at a big disadvantage in my opinion. They lack a support network but also lack the benefit of accountability which is so critically important.

I've also found that these struggling traders are ones that haven't participated in any webinars. So that means they are unwilling to put in the time. They spend all their time, instead, on downloading indicators or searching for a new trading room to call trades.

OK so let me end by putting this out there... when is it the appropriate time to give up? Let's be honest, not everyone is cut out for trading. In fact, if we are honest, very few are. So it's cruel to string some of these guys along, it would be better for them to help them identify early on they don't have what it takes and they should move on.

Mike

I'm not a newbie... but I print this post and attacked on the wall near my monitor .

Not only trading rules, life's course rules...

Thanks BM

January 12th, 2016, 01:10 PM

Today I had a bad day.

I guess, for most people who trade, having a bad day means losing a significant amount of money. For me it means going against what I had set myself to do, i.e. breaking my own rules.

The loss was laughable (120 Euros), but what did it for me was the broken principle of getting back into a trade for a 3rd time when I had said 'enough' less than 5 mins earlier.

Sure, I had seen all the signals I wanted to see before entering again, and sure, this latest trade had got me back to break-even (even slightly profitable), but there was that uneasy feeling of having broken the rules that really turned a relatively okay day into a bad one.

It's days like these that lead me to confess about my sins into a thread called 'time to give up'. Freudian slip? Whoops.

Tomorrow is another day...

January 12th, 2016, 06:13 PM

Big Mike

I don't want to have any vendor-related discussion here in this thread about the vendor who produced this video, but this is from last year and is an interesting watch for those who haven't seen it.

Does this video speak to you about why you are a trader?

Mike

Not at all. The video sounds as cheesy as the videos of the American corporation I used to work for (sorry).

What resonated with me about trading was a comment by a guy in another forum. This is an excerpt

Quoting

I am a full time independent trader and it is the hardest most miserable job there is. There are weeks where im up, and weeks where i am down. looking back i make more than i lose and the weeks where i am up are great. last week i traded all week and ended up at a loss of over $400. i literally would've been better off financially if i sat in front of the sofa watching tv then trying to trade the markets from 8 - 5 every day. How many of you are willing to work for free some weeks or at a loss? Because unless you are lucky to get a job in a bank thats what you'll end up doing.

To be a trader you need 2 things

1. A very high threshold to pain
2. the willingness to work for free while you learn this business. (Which will take most up to 2 years. if you're really good you can do it in 1.)

you really believe you can do it in under a year? congrats to being the 95%.

January 12th, 2016, 06:29 PM

Cerberus

today's traderbites - listen to it, several times maybe, to make it sink in.

first 9 minutes are the daily news/VolPro analysis/prep. For the motivational
part only, start at Min 9 - Really good stuff

Cer

Thanks @Cerberus for posting the link, and thanks @FuturesTrader71 for what you said in the video and I already knew but had forgotten today.

January 12th, 2016, 08:58 PM

xplorer;549029I

am a full time independent trader and it is the hardest most miserable job there is. There are weeks where im up, and weeks where i am down. looking back i make more than i lose and the weeks where i am up are great. last week i traded all week and ended up at a loss of over $400. i literally would've been better off financially if i sat in front of the sofa watching tv then trying to trade the markets from 8 - 5 every day. How many of you are willing to work for free some weeks or at a loss? Because unless you are lucky to get a job in a bank thats what you'll end up doing.

To be a trader you need 2 things

1. A very high threshold to pain
2. the willingness to work for free while you learn this business. (Which will take most up to 2 years. if you're really good you can do it in 1.)

you really believe you can do it in under a year? congrats to being the 95%.

What a terrible, sad and pathetic way to live. And if this is what you hold in your mind, neither you nor this trader will make it long term. Guaranteed.

My experience is the exact opposite. I love what I do, it is deeply fulfilling and I wouldn't 'trade' it for anything.

I have a very low joy threshold, and I am willing to enjoy all experiences.

January 13th, 2016, 03:45 AM

Anagami

What a terrible, sad and pathetic way to live. And if this is what you hold in your mind, neither you nor this trader will make it long term. Guaranteed.

My experience is the exact opposite. I love what I do, it is deeply fulfilling and I wouldn't 'trade' it for anything.

I have a very low joy threshold, and I am willing to enjoy all experiences.

Thanks Anagami, although that is your opinion and you're entitled to it.

That statement rings true about the nature of learning to trade and the difficulties along the way - better hear sobering statements about that than to hear tough, macho-style slogans on how good is to be a trader. To many successful traders - in my opinion - the former sentiment would also ring truer.

Time to Give Up

Discussion in Psychology and Money Management

Time to Give Up