I agree. While trading is hard, after five years if you're not making forward progress (i.e. making money and building your account) then you just don't have what it takes and deep down maybe you just don't want to. Think of Seykota's famous remark "Everyone gets what they want out of the markets." Even the losers, for what they want is not to make money but they want the thrill or pity from others. Some people actually like to brag about how much they lost. Makes for a good story over drinks.

I disagree. People can change IF they want it bad enough.

I know this because I have achieved profitability (and got funded with TST) after nearly 10 years of struggle. If you want it badly enough, there is NEVER a time to give up but you must adapt to the circumstances around you to keep your dream/goal alive.

Anything worthwhile in your life is going to take five years. That's almost axiomatic.



A lot of times it can take ten years. Or longer. How long does it take to become a neurosurgeon?



Is it worth investing ten years of constant effort and struggle in?

The key in this game is that there are many different ways to be a profitable trader, some are easier than others...

I know people that couldn't trade ES to save their lives but they are profitable day trading leveraged ETFs with the same underlying. Or swing trading options, or selling options premium, or trading volatility.

For me, my most profitable and consistent trading is trading VIX futures to the short side

Many people do not have the skill to be a neurosurgeon. Same with trading

I guess my point is, with little exposure to other methods, and trading alone generally I worry that many traders just beat their head against the wall trying to trade the way they have seen on videos and in books, and those methods I have found, for me, don't necessarily work very well. Be brutally honest with yourself about who you are, your failings, your risk avoidance/tolerance, and what you really understand about markets, be your own trader and not someone else, and I think you are already halfway there.

Just writing this to organise my thoughts mostly, really tired.

So I know this guy from the States, around 40 so as mature as he needs to be. He SUCKS at trading, has been trying to trade for over 5 years and just never learns. Spends $erious money on books, TST combines (done his MES for the year too) and actually the two schools were not scammers.
Well I've written down the problem.. thats step 1

You have to avoid the most heavily advertised junk out there.

For example there is a guy out there who REVIEWS 1100 rooms.

He stays in each one for 3 months. Everything from George Washington is covered (over 200 years of internet research).

They then "recommend for a fee" the very best traders.

Here is one at the top of his list:

CFTC Charges Jody Dupont of South Carolina and His Company, Open Range Trading LLC, with Commodity Trading Advisor Fraud

Stick with proven winners and take the time to LEARN THIS PROFESSION.

Only a very few people out there actually advise LEARNING TO TRADE BEFORE you plunk down your own risk capital.

You need months if not years of education and then practice.

Why is this Profession any different from Law, Medicine and Engineering?

TB

In my view, the question of whether somebody can build a sustainable trading business is a matter of what they are willing to sacrifice.

Trading requires sacrifice, a great deal more sacrifice than you are led to believe when you embark on this path. For a lot of us this means changing your entire frikken life, radically.

For instance: getting up at four a.m. to prepare for the trading day.

When they say to preserve your trading capital? Yes yes, you change your diet to gummy bears, Charms Blow Pops and Kraft Mac-n-Cheese! Boy, what a great enjoyable life we have chosen! Wheee!

Pardon me while I go snack on some tree bark!

I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

For every good trader out there, there are 100 more who think they can just copy someone else's method and start making money or join some trading room or download some expensive set of indicators, and be profitable.

Most of these guys have completely unrealistic expectations. They expect to take $10,000 and turn it into $100,000 at the end of the year, for example, even though they have no track record of performance or gains.

These people have no plan. They constantly blame their computer, their trading platform, their broker, their wife, their kids for missing trades or mistakes during a trade. They have no idea what to focus on or where to start.

And worse, most of them are unwilling to do the work. Yes, there are people for which that does not apply who are truly trying their best. But they are few and far between. Most people that are struggling aren't even willing to maintain a journal. Most people aren't willing to set realistic expectations. Most people aren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

On top of that, most of these guys aren't in a position in their life to even give trading a chance. Examples would be that they just lost their job. That is the worse time to start trading. Other examples would be that they have a job but no real savings, no money to burn in trading education expenses (and I don't mean from a trading room or buying a product). Worse still, many of these guys have no support from their wife or girlfriend because as you can imagine, they are losing money and also spending a lot of "free time" with trading instead of with their loved ones or kids. This is an impossible situation to put yourself in and expect good results.

So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on.

In fact, a lot of times my advice to these guys is to move on. Stop trading. Let's be real, if you are undercapitalized, unwilling to do the real work, and have no support from your family -- you aren't in a position to be a good trader.

But I also have to be honest, some times when I tell someone to stop trading, what I am really wanting them to do is come back and tell me NO, they will not stop, they are going to make it work. I mean if you really want this, then fight for it. But as I've said countless times before -- willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable.

We know that most people "give up" once they blow all or a significant portion of their initial deposit at a broker. This usually happens in less than 90 days according to brokers I've talked to. Most of these people aren't a part of any trading forum, and those that are, most of them are not participating, do not have a journal, have not taken time to ask questions or formulate a plan, etc. Again let's be honest: if anyone had taken the time to formulate a plan and prepare, they would not have allowed themselves to blow an account in 90 days.

For the rest, the ones that are members of futures.io (formerly BMT), I find that the overwhelming (close to 100%) of people that are struggling are the ones that have zero posts. I've come to look at this as an important metric. The ones that are uninvolved in the forum, for whatever reason, are going to be at a big disadvantage in my opinion. They lack a support network but also lack the benefit of accountability which is so critically important.

I've also found that these struggling traders are ones that haven't participated in any webinars. So that means they are unwilling to put in the time. They spend all their time, instead, on downloading indicators or searching for a new trading room to call trades.

OK so let me end by putting this out there... when is it the appropriate time to give up? Let's be honest, not everyone is cut out for trading. In fact, if we are honest, very few are. So it's cruel to string some of these guys along, it would be better for them to help them identify early on they don't have what it takes and they should move on.

Mike

Answer to #2 is-- Will any one ever give you the directions to their buried treasure?

Most traders guard their "secret" or "edge" or whatever they want to call it. They feel like it's all their hard work and they don't want to give it away. "I've worked so hard on this I'm keeping it to myself" is the basic thought process. There may be more to it, but that is the general premise.

But .. I ask .. why not?

Let's say you give 100 people your "secret" and they understand and enter/exit exactly like you. Lets say all 100 of them trade 5 contracts. That's 500 contracts more that get traded at the same (or very close to the same) price as you. Which way does the market go? In your direction, even more quickly and likely with more force than when you kept it to yourself, and likely for larger wins than what it originally was before those extra 500 contracts started trading. Almost like giving yourself free $$.

@Redhouse that is a way to put it alright.

Study the Dunning-Kruger effect and self-reflect. Everyone at some level is affected by this however trading is different as running out of money and time is quite clearly delineated.

If you have worked in a job where personal charisma does not matter (it does not to the right edge) and always got fast promotions, been objectively judged by others as a consistent asset then you have a chance. The only problem is your probably not reading this as you are happy in your career and trading is gambling to you etc. etc.

Ok I should have separated the first line re @Redhouse from the general point I was making.

DK-5/10 for Rory. haha.

However, if other people really value your insight (and are not just buttering you up to to their work for them) then I recon thats a good part of the right stuff. Mike put it very well, after the brains, most fail as they have never worked hard. If other people have told you to stop working and go home as your doing too much, especially if they are the one paying you, that is a good sign.

Self confidence is nice however other people having regularly shown a willingness to put trust in you is the important bit.

Hey Mike, what exactly do you mean by the work required? Would you be able to pinpoint me to the required work for someone who wants to be a successful CONSISTENT trader.
Thank you.

Front running, aka tailgating. It works but unless your the broker you need to make sure everyone is on the same chart and your stop if you have one is safely away from theirs.

I was not thinking at all about front running. And yes, obviously everyone has to see the same thing/set up.

Would work better if it was automated and therefore a computer puts in the trades. You can debate/argue all day long about slippage/fills/one person has a faster data feed etc etc etc but that isn't the point here.

I wasn't being specific at all or trying to get in to a conversation about why such a thing couldn't (or doesn't) work .. just pointing out that there are things to think about within that entire "my treasure map and you're not fucking having it" thought process.

[MENTION=56063]
Very cool pic. I've gone through it in other stages of life, as have most people when learning a new skill or profession. Most people just don't actually think of it in that way.

I sent it to one guy and he got in a massive huff over the word "incompetent" being used. Some people are just totally useless, with 7.4 billion and rising fast, more and more never once experience being outside the first standard deviation at anything even with some raw talent. "You can do it if you try hard enough" is the new opiate of the masses maybe

"Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' it will happen.

All the time the universe has for people to understand this

Let me ask anyone, as far as educational aspect. What classes, would help in trading. I am new, and love this. I do have a journal, and keep track of everything.information is vast, who is real and fake.

The good thing is, there are at minimum two very distinct groups on futures.io (formerly BMT). Those that spend all their time searching for the holy grail -- they are always in the vendor threads, always looking for a new mentor, a new educator, a new indicator, a new system, a new trading room to show them how to be a better trader.

Then there are those who are journaling about their trading every day, have laid out their trading plan, are posting their trades, and are reviewing themselves for strengths and weaknesses on an ongoing basis, and therefore improving themselves on an ongoing basis without "searching" externally for the answer.

So there is hope

Mike

Let me ask anyone, as far as educational aspect. What classes, would help in trading. I am new, and love this. I do have a journal, and keep track of everything.information is vast, who is real and fake.

Threads like this really get to the heart and soul of who we really are as people IMHO.

Thank you everyone for being vulnerable and expressing your stories, feelings, and journey on here. I apologize about the length of this but I hope it reaches some traders and perhaps opens some eyes.

In my very humble opinion making a career as a trader has much to do with sacrifice. I often sit out on my surfboard in the open ocean and reminisce about my journey to become a successful professional trader. Although I have "made it" , and achieved consistent financial independence over the past 6 years, the cost has proven extremely great.

I was 26 when i started trading, I was a professional bodybuilder and fitness trainer with no formal education in anything remotely close to finance. I had a young wife who was my lifes love and 2 children (6 and 10 years old at that time).

Clearly defining what i took as my "strengths' that gave me success in my life( Iron discipline and the ability to execute a plan unerringly), I took to the markets guns blazing.

Guys Im really not trying to discourage or encourage anyone. I am mearly attempting to inject a dose of realism into a trade where unrealistic expectations run paramount by sharing my experiences and the rewards/repercussions of it.
I hear stories all the time of people saying how they are the types "who never give up", or who " will always persevere no matter what because they KNOW they can do it!" And other such colloquialisms.

Such a pollyannic attitude of thinking that "if you just hang in there long enough eventually you will win out", or that "if you win some sort of war of attrition with the market ultimately you will become a great trader" is just suicidal. We are inundated in society with the "Rocky" movies and other such "against all odds" type scenarios. Fellas, there is a REASON that these are movies. They are the dream, and they are absolutely the exception to the norm. Primarily done by exceptional people with untapped exceptional qualities.

We ALL want to be like that. We all love to think we are able to separate from the masses. And possibly in some ways we can. In fact I happen to have been an extremely successful champion bodybuilder. It took a massive amount of dedication, work, discipline and fortitude to bring a 265lb shredded physique to a stage. THAT was my gift and I found that trading took that PLUS a WHOLE lot more.

I put in my 10,000 hours of trading forex. I went to the ends of the internet and back. I focused on money management, risk analysis, price action, fundamental analysis, etc etc...

ENDLESS hours with no sleep... studying studying... persevering in some blind hope that I could achieve the same successes as many we hear about...

But... Success escaped me.... The doors just kept closing, accounts just kept slowly dwindling down... and the dream was dying a very quiet death.... All the while i found my interpersonal relationships with my wife and kids starting to suffer... More on that later..

I think perhaps it boils down to more than just "Can i make it in trading?" It is more a question of " Do I want to LIVE the traders life?" Frankly I feel that the vast majority are not near adequately ready to answer that question nor are most in anyway prepared for what an undertaking it is.

Being a zero sum business it is truly a journey into a complete unknown hostile battlefield for most without the help of even a compass or a weapon. In alignment with that analogy the odds are overwhelmingly against most. As somber of a thought as that may be, it is the hard truth.

I personally went through a very in-depth study of the marketplace after my first 6 months of floundering about. I studied the infrastructure of what creates the markets(forex, futures, equities, options, bonds, warrants, etc..). I studied how liquidity works, how are orders are filled, the interbank system. I learned about all the players across all the major markets, how they place their orders, what their aims are(commercial, institutional, CB's and retailers, etc). I studied Price Action for endless hours, staring at charts, plotting lines at support/resistance/supply/demand levels on all time frames to trade to and from. I studied the intricacies of market timing, the Gold fixes, how swap works, how brokers work. I went into in depth studies and read books on fundamental analysis. I learned a tremendous amount about the bond markets, yield curves, gold/oil ratios, correlating markets. I read every central bank book I could find. I know about the Fed top to bottom, the ECB, the RBA, the BOE. From the major players in those banks to how they originated. I studied fractional reserve banking because i wanted to learn how to asses how any of the policy makers could move the prices of currencies in relationship to one another. I read endless books on orderflow and macroeconomics. I strived to try and understand how and why certain policies and catalysts around the world would move one currency agaisnt the others.

All this time endlessly looking at charts. Hours and hours spent putting in demo trade after demo trade testing and endlessly testing.

I never believed in any technical indicators. I still dont. I always just traded Naked charts. Maybe at the most I used a stochastic early on but id be hard pressed to explain what almost any of the other lagging indicators does. To me they have never made sense. Trust me, I studied ALL of them in massive detail.

I placed together my system using multiple time frames with S/R, S/D zones, fundamental drivers, watching for news catalysts, my endless charting knowledge of PA, my risk management in place, looking at market timing, pre-panning my trades, etc etc..... it met with failure time and time again. days turned to weeks and weeks turned to months as I tried tweaking and adjusting, studying harder, working more and more. I REFUSED to be undone! I changed my risk management, time frames, used only PA I thought had the BEST chances of working. I called on help from every trader more veteran than myself and they all gave me advice. Still, I failed.

I figured it must be my psychology. So I delved heavily into self exploration, meditation, read books. Sought out gurus, got my mind right. Tried to identify my fears of losing or attachement to money. I made Goals, endless goals. Every day. I planned my life 10 years into the future in every aspect i could to achieve the "trading mindset".

I felt as ready as ever and went back into the market. More months fell off the chart as my accounts kept slowly dwindling down and dying. If I was using a 3:1 reward to risk Id lose 4 out of 5 trades consistently. It was always a slow bleed.

I then went the path of trying to find a mentor. Someone who could help me to identify my flaws in my trading/self and guide me to correct them. At this point years had already been spent and frustration was starting to set in. I had sacrificed much. My family had fallen apart, my work was suffering, as was my health(which I had prided myself on for my whole life) from the many nights up late trading and focusing. Trying to self sustain on negative returns.

Relentlessly I pushed on.

The mentors all were dead ends. I was watching my close friends starting to achieve success. They tried to help me, going so far as to try and copy their systems. All met with more failure.

More years went by. My wife and love left me with the kids. I made sure the door didnt hit them in the ass on their way out....Such was my obsession to not be undone...

Success did not come with it.

I moved into studying the quantside of trading. Learning to program code. Momentum trading, mean-reversion trading, Sharpe ratio, etc etc. Trying to learn to achieve positive kurtosis through algo identification of price trends. I delved deeply into this thinking that maybe, just maybe it was my only way. I ran into a brick wall. My algos would get taken out, my hidden markov models did not have the proper risk management protocols built in to keep me safe from many of the hidden liquidity issues in the fx markets and again.... suffice to say, I again was met with more defeat

At this point, utterly defeated, not knowing where to turn. I withdrew deeply into myself and saw what my life had become. I had become a shell of who i once was. I took a long break and a long period of self reflection and came to the end of my rope.

I was busted, homeless, alone, living in my car and sustaining on $.29 taco Tuesdays at taco bell. I showered at the gym and studied trading on Starbucks Wifi. I had no idea where my wife or kids were until the divorce papers showed up at my parents house since i didnt have a physical address.

When doors open in life. It is wise to walk through them. I believe we all have a calling. Im not religious, but I believe in a higher "self. To listen to the signs of life makes life much easier and it goes more smoothly. It was only after this realization I finally made my decision that the doors were firmly closed on my decision to become a trader. I learned a great deal about finance, markets, ect... but Mostly about myself.


I am far from a fascinating case study. I committed to giving my all to learning these markets much like many other aspiring traders start out. I was never one to easily give up on anything in life.

Tenacity and discipline has given me many of the things in my life I am the most proud of as well as thankful for. There just came a point to where the cost benefit of working to master the markets and live the "lifestyle" became more than I was willing to pay.

I ended up one night sitting on the beach, utterly destroyed, with the barrel of a loaded .44 between my teeth. I sobbed and sobbed and cried out to whatever powers that be that if this was the end for me just give me the strength the pull the trigger.... I got my answer when i woke up in the morning, soaking wet and freezing cold, but alive. That was my bottom.

I was still certain it was possible to trade these markets successfully. There is far to much evidence to support it and I would never be so obtuse as to argue in opposition. I simply came to the simple realization that we are all NOT created equal, nor do we all have the same capacity for successes and failures in different ventures in this life.

I ultimately realized the fact that maybe I had overcomplicated a more simplistic business. That being said it is quite a feat "unlearning" everything. Armed with the knowledge I had nothing to lose I resolved to cut out as much as possible to create a trading system that was simplistic, profitable, and viable. With what i had been through the concepts of losing money being the worst thing that could happen simply disappeared and I started to see profit in my trading.

Then more profits, and MORE profits. To my astonishment in less than 12 months I reached a peak watermark in my finances for life. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about my health or my relationships. I have never met anyone else and feel as though I have truly sacrificed my true soulmate for my fiscal successes. My children dont want to see me as Im afraid I destroyed those relationships too in their formative years in my unrelenting pursuit of success in trading.

All this being said, I have accepted my life where it is. I am listening more than ever to my "inner-self" and going along with the type of life that I feel is more in alignment with who I want to show up as in life. I opened up a small training studio and have rekindled my passion for helping others through fitness.

The vast majority of traders are extremely introverted and highly analytical. While I am certainly the latter, I am by no means the former. Trading is a lonely business. Traders do not really give anything meaningful back to society in the way that doctors, engineers, teachers, and any other more humanitarian type career does. I personally always had a difficult time with that aspect. As a personal trainer by trade I have always loved the aspect of helping people look better, feel more youthful, and improve the quality of an individuals life . It is a different sort of gratification than watching the GBP/JPY go +50 pips in profit. I am sure we have all heard of and possibly lived(I know i have) through a personal relationship falling apart due to the demands of the financial markets. It, by the very nature, breeds isolation from the rest of society.

Knowing who we are from what we are not is an integral part of our lessons in this world. Once you do know who and what you are it is wise to act in accordance to it.

Make certain the cost of what you want to do with this business is what you are prepared to bear


Wulf

What about the guys who are doing things right?

- Only trading with money they can afford to lose
- Open and honest with their spouse, kids
- Steady income outside of trading that is more than sufficient to cover all life expenses while learning to trade
- Realistic expectations, knows that is likely to lose for a long time before starting to win, part of education
- Spends all of his time on research, homework, statistics, and review -- and not on indicators or trading rooms
- Creates accountability with a journal and his support network of trading friends, and his spouse

List continues.

For these guys, this thread does not apply. In fact, for these guys, they should be applauded for their conservative approach instead of thrill seeking holy grail fixation.

Mike

So is trading unique in this area, or does this apply to everything in life?

For example, if someone simply has the willpower to be better than Tiger Woods or Michael Jordon, or if someone had the willpower to land on the moon instead of Neil Armstrong, does this mean that they have a chance in hell?

No, it does not.

Willpower alone is not nearly enough. Willpower is a prerequisite. It is not an advantage or edge.

Not everyone is cut out to be a trader.

Mike

I used to blow up! I would add to a loser, miss my stops, and be like a deer in the headlights. I am finally over that but now am b/e since I kill winners too soon. Advice?

What made you b/e?



I quit adding to losers. I honor my stops. Now I have the fear of losing so I take profit way too quick

Being in "NEED" of money will make you a terrible trader.

i read the thread and i will not quit. i am a newbie, i lost almost 25K...making almost everything wrong.
i work as a engineer in germany...so i can trade the american market in the european evening.
now i joined this forum and i am willing to work hard and to learn and to master myself.
i will start a journal here, for mirroring myself.
i have until now no exact trading plan...no good money/risk management and no system.
i know that my lotsize and my risk is far to big. i have to start at zero and learn from the beginning on.

this is a great froum and my goal is to grow as human and as a trader.

critics, help and other views are allways welcomeamd excuse my english i am no native speaker.

Gianmarco

What made you b/e?



I quit adding to losers. I honor my stops. Now I have the fear of losing so I take profit way too quick

If it were that simple everyone would be Tom Brady.

I can give trades out every day, world class trades, like buy the break out over yesterday's high in Dow.

I like to think I am Tom Brady of Trading. Certainly have a better win rate. Sadly when I was 25 I could throw a football longer -- 73 yards, so why didnt I stay with my college football team?

Fear of success!

1 - out of 11 traders will follow trades we suggest. Even those I have proven that win most days.

Human nature.

We are programmed from birth -- DONT TOUCH THAT. EAT YOUR SPINACH BEFORE ICE CREAM. COLLEGES TEACH US TO BE GOOD EMPLYEES NOT INNOVATORS. Maybe Harvard, Yale, MIT.

Even Trump took a while before he believed he could really become president.

I suggested it to him, STRONGLY, in 1996 when his limo broke down and I drove him to the Pottstown K-Mart to shop for school supplies for Don Jr. at the Hill school.

He said, "I make more money in a day than the president. Look what happened to Ross. No one will ever elect a Billionaire--too much jealousy."

Hmmmmmm.
TB

Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

You need a plan. And this is where the challenge of self discipline comes in at. Having a plan reduces the stress of trading significantly. I'm a new trader as well and I had similar issues. Here's what I did...

(Note you don't need to replicate this but just get an idea. I trade the MES but use order flow of the ES)

1. I try to get a feel of the market by understanding where positions are being held and what type of traders are holding them. This is where I use Market profile. I review prior day price action and overnight price action.

2. Then I note reference areas (prior/current day's high, low, vpoc, open, close, VAH, VAL etc) I use those as my entry and exit targets. Unless it is a trend day or news driven, those levels are respected almost to the tick. It's like magic. I also use any other obvious support/resistance zones and trendlines.

3. When price visits those areas I read the tape, price ladder, and market depth map (I use Sierra chart). This tells me how traders/algos are reacting to these levels.

4. Last but not least (it's actually most lol) Market Internals. Market Internals will help me know when to exit or stay in a trade. I use TICK, advance decline line, and market breadth. This was a game changer for me and took most of the stress out of trading. I was always afraid of exiting trades too early and I would often end up holding onto losers. Market internals helped me in this area.

Bottom line is JUST REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE TRADING FOR GOOD PROBABILITIES NOT TO BE RIGHT ON EVERY TRADE. Listen to the late Mark Douglas lectures on YouTube.

If I told you to flip a coin 100 times and you will only win 40 out of 100, it may seem unfavorable. But If I told you each win will be 2-3x greater than each loss, then you are in a net positive situation. The hard part is finding a strategy that gives you those odds and THEN convincing your mind that you are trading for the next 100 trades not for the very next one. "Trade like you are the casino."

To sum it up (and yes I know it's easier said than done but at least you know what you're striving for)

1. Create a plan by getting a feel for what the market is doing and may want to do.
2. Have multiple strategies in your arsenal and pick the ones that fit your plan and risk tolerance.
3. Stick to the plan and remember you are trading for the long haul. This requires patience which you will need to work on.


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I appreciate the (very comprehensive) reply.
Everything you said was on point.
I've sort of taken a break from trading for the past few weeks... I think it's given me a chance to really clear my head.

"Bottom line is JUST REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE TRADING FOR GOOD PROBABILITIES NOT TO BE RIGHT ON EVERY TRADE. Listen to the late Mark Douglas lectures on YouTube"
Bingo ^

This is the mindset I have yet to fully master but Mark Douglas is certainly a good mentor when it comes to that, among others (Alexander Elder is also a favorite of mine)
So yeah. Trading is indeed a mind-maze! And I think that taking a break and being honest with my mistakes was exactly what I needed.

1. Create a plan by getting a feel for what the market is doing and may want to do.
2. Have multiple strategies in your arsenal and pick the ones that fit your plan and risk tolerance.
3. Stick to the plan and remember you are trading for the long haul. This requires patience which you will need to work on.

This is exactly what I need.
And what I will strive for the next time I'm ready to jump back in the market.
Thanks again for the reply!

- Mike

,

And my two cents....

I have always, always been a firm believer in the following: one can achieve anything in life, IF they are willing to sacrifice anything for it.

Bold statement to be sure, and it does have to be grounded in reality to a certain degree. If I decide I want to fly, the chances of me figuring out how to flap my arms fast enough to get airborne are pretty much nil. But... I can certainly get a pilot's license, or go hang gliding, or any number of things to achieve my goal.

My initial answer to your question about that person above.... IF that trader is willing to burn his kids college fund, IF he is willing to hand over that 20K in courses, and IF he is willing to sacrifice his marriage and family for trading... then yes, he should be trading.

Sound ridiculous? Absolutely. But, right or wrong, in a sick sort of way you would have to appreciate someone's absolute dedication to their goal no matter what. Brings to mind the Samurai mentality - duty above all else.

The only thing that doesn't fit in all that is this - by getting married, having kids, etc, this "trader's" first duty is to his family, to the commitments he has made to them, expressed or implied, to take care of them as a husband and father. If he/she wants to be a trader first, at all costs, then she should not sacrifice anyone else's lives or futures for that.

This thread, and that post of yours Mike, struck a deep and painful cord in me. Been there, done that to a certain degree, a long time ago. Having had much success in my life in so many different areas, I knew, just KNEW, that I could succeed at trading also. After all, how hard could it be.... buy low, sell high, right? Make truckloads of money and everyone will be happy as can be.

I was humbled beyond belief, lost A LOT, and not just talking about money. And it took me a long time to admit defeat. I am infinitely regretful for my blind pride and arrogance, but, I am also thankful in a way. I fell, I got up, and I have persevered. I have learned, and although I wish I had done things differently, I can now look back and see that every little thing was a lesson, painful as it may have been.

Wow, looking over my post, certainly didn't think I was going to spill my guts about my dark trading addiction days, and hesitating to hit the submit button. But, who knows, maybe it will help someone. I know for a fact that one can be successful in this endeavor - I trade, I am profitable, and more importantly, I am comfortable with what I do.

After all that, my answer to your question is....no, this person should not be trading. BUT.... if they are that far into that type of situation, they will absolutely not listen to anyone - you, me, their family - no one. They will have to take the absolute ass kicking that they are in for, and either be better for it, or not. I sympathize with your situation and all those types of communications I know you get on a regular basis, but someone like that has an addiction, and just like any other habit, is going to have to hit rock bottom before they come back up.

I know from experience.

^You know what WILL help you? Start with very small goals regarding your profit targets. E.g. If you're an ES trader, try to get only one point a day and quit. Of course, manage your stops too, equally good. This way, you're risking less and gaining confidence.

Let me tell you this: A person I know stayed with making one and only one point a day on one contract (ES) for FIVE straight months (only a few stopouts throughout that stretch). Then, once he knew it was ok, he went to 2,3,5,10....50....100..... and THREE HUNDRED contracts! He opened his own LLC as retailers are capped at max one hundred contracts.

How did this happen? Well you start from one contract and then move on of course. Build confidence. Manage stops. This is a game of probabilities. Watch and learn from Mark Douglas' videos. That is it.

P.S. That trader is the only reason I am still in the game today, otherwise I would have quit a long time ago. He also reiterated and sculpted something in my mind: You can achieve anything you want in life - just try harder and look more carefully. Hope it helps. Good luck.

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What is the title of this thread?

Time to give up.

Why you think people give up? Because when you start losing, you start going down mentally as well - especially if you start losing what you cannot afford to.

I would rather make my goal for today, EVERYDAY, then quit happily knowing the market can do WHATEVER it wants to - I just hit my goal for the day. I am done for today. I will do EXACTLY the same thing tomorrow, with confidence, be done and shut off.

Regarding your monetary goals, they will start appearing by themselves once you know this secret of sustainability everyday - you just have to be consistent in what you're doing with confidence everyday. Yes, focus on your monetary goals because that's what they drag you everyday there too, but keep all these facts in mind too that all these are just random probabilities and you are just exploiting your edge for your gains everyday. Good luck.

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Thanks for the feedback, I must say that I thought a lot about this approach. In the past my best trading months were the ones in which I stopped trading after making a certain amount of money.
I tried this in the past but I had the following issues with this approach
1) after making a couple of good trades and reach the daily goal I didn't know what to do the rest of the day. (it seems so strange to stay disconnected from the market until the next day)
2) I feel that by being away from the market, I give up valuable learning opportunities (basically the good trades I take are based on experienced built in the past, if I stop trading only after 2/3 trades per day when will I be learning and improving?)
3) rationally it doesn't make sense to stop trading while you are in sync with the market and I would like to be able to trade throughout the day and don't feel fear of giving it all back.

I think your advice is really wise but in my mind I want to "build a style of trading" in which I can sit in front of my computer as much as I want without taking stupid trades. I know from monetary standpoint it would be wiser to walk away.
Do you think that I should focus more on "making money" rather than on trading?