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Time to Give Up


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Time to Give Up

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  #401 (permalink)
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Pariah Carey View Post
I agree. While trading is hard, after five years if you're not making forward progress (i.e. making money and building your account) then you just don't have what it takes and deep down maybe you just don't want to. Think of Seykota's famous remark "Everyone gets what they want out of the markets." Even the losers, for what they want is not to make money but they want the thrill or pity from others. Some people actually like to brag about how much they lost. Makes for a good story over drinks.

I disagree. People can change IF they want it bad enough.

I know this because I have achieved profitability (and got funded with TST) after nearly 10 years of struggle. If you want it badly enough, there is NEVER a time to give up but you must adapt to the circumstances around you to keep your dream/goal alive.

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  #402 (permalink)
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As traders we generally start this alone, seek out information/coaching as needed and spend most of our time alone. Basically you are in the pro league from day one, or for a boxing reference, in the ring with Mike Tyson or some other champ straight away. Failure comes often, and when new traders watch videos and gather information on how to improve, many of those 'solutions' wont fit our personal style or our own shortcomings won't allow us to profit from them. I can remember watching videos of ppl scalping 10-20 lots on ES and when you try that as a newb right out of the box, you will get spun and whipsawed and demoralised most often.

The key in this game is that there are many different ways to be a profitable trader, some are easier than others, and to recognise that we all have failings/shortcomings as a trader, and to find a method that suits you. If you are an anxious trader, have a hard time when positions go quickly against you, maybe futures are not the product for you. Or, maybe you need to trade something smaller, micros, or maybe something like the 10yr note that doesn't whiplash so often.

I know people that couldn't trade ES to save their lives but they are profitable day trading leveraged ETFs with the same underlying. Or swing trading options, or selling options premium, or trading volatility.

For me, my most profitable and consistent trading is trading VIX futures to the short side, I do this almost every day, and on a pullback on ES instead of going long ES often I will short VX, it's a large tick value contract but once you understand implied volatility thoroughly, it becomes quite predictable. I also scalp ES options instead of trading ES outright many days, when ES is whipsawing and stopping people out all the time, the calls(or puts) generally move very little, until a bigger move comes. You can scalp these on a DOM on many platforms, and its one of my go-to methods.

I guess my point is, with little exposure to other methods, and trading alone generally I worry that many traders just beat their head against the wall trying to trade the way they have seen on videos and in books, and those methods I have found, for me, don't necessarily work very well. Be brutally honest with yourself about who you are, your failings, your risk avoidance/tolerance, and what you really understand about markets, be your own trader and not someone else, and I think you are already halfway there.

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  #403 (permalink)
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^^^^

Very thoughtful post right there. True regarding finding your style and what suits your personality.


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  #404 (permalink)
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Market Monkey View Post
I disagree. People can change IF they want it bad enough.

I know this because I have achieved profitability (and got funded with TST) after nearly 10 years of struggle. If you want it badly enough, there is NEVER a time to give up but you must adapt to the circumstances around you to keep your dream/goal alive.

Anything worthwhile in your life is going to take five years. That's almost axiomatic.

A lot of times it can take ten years. Or longer. How long does it take to become a neurosurgeon?

Is it worth investing ten years of constant effort and struggle in?

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  #405 (permalink)
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suko View Post
Anything worthwhile in your life is going to take five years. That's almost axiomatic.



A lot of times it can take ten years. Or longer. How long does it take to become a neurosurgeon?



Is it worth investing ten years of constant effort and struggle in?


Many people do not have the skill to be a neurosurgeon. Same with trading


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  #406 (permalink)
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Japhro View Post
The key in this game is that there are many different ways to be a profitable trader, some are easier than others...

I know people that couldn't trade ES to save their lives but they are profitable day trading leveraged ETFs with the same underlying. Or swing trading options, or selling options premium, or trading volatility.

For me, my most profitable and consistent trading is trading VIX futures to the short side

Or selling long dated puts on SVXY, a year or more out.

This post is very right on.

Lots of different kinds of trading.

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  #407 (permalink)
 
 
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spideysteve View Post
Many people do not have the skill to be a neurosurgeon. Same with trading

I have to agree.

Its important to separate a hobby/retirement activity from a professional job that pays all the bills including re-payment of the time used to learn. Of course we seek profitable niches however some cannot or more likely will eventually find something nice and turn their noses up at it for reward vs effort or other reason.

If your have a modest salary of say $80k, seems ok does it not? How long does it take to recoup the time to learn and where does that money put you relative to your top echelon brained competition?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html?ref=your-money&_r=1&

Hobby and retired traders should not be lumped in with retail pro traders who are aiming to build serious trading capital in addition to paying the bills. Its a different ballgame.

As an alternative to bingo its great (really will keep your mind fresh) but as a sole income, its a job for performers.

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  #408 (permalink)
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Japhro View Post

I guess my point is, with little exposure to other methods, and trading alone generally I worry that many traders just beat their head against the wall trying to trade the way they have seen on videos and in books, and those methods I have found, for me, don't necessarily work very well. Be brutally honest with yourself about who you are, your failings, your risk avoidance/tolerance, and what you really understand about markets, be your own trader and not someone else, and I think you are already halfway there.

Such a great point- don't succumb to the sunk cost effect!!

I spent 8 + years trading a method taught to me by a "trader/educator" with not much success. I realised years ago that I probably should give a good shot at another method (and I did sporadically, but they were other people's methods that I could never get my head around). The few grand spent on mentorship, plus the time invested, made it seem impossible to abandon it...

....then I said, "F*** it!" came up with a simple, logical method in less than a day and haven't looked back since!!

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  #409 (permalink)
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Rory View Post
Just writing this to organise my thoughts mostly, really tired.

So I know this guy from the States, around 40 so as mature as he needs to be. He SUCKS at trading, has been trying to trade for over 5 years and just never learns. Spends $erious money on books, TST combines (done his MES for the year too) and actually the two schools were not scammers.
Well I've written down the problem.. thats step 1

You have to avoid the most heavily advertised junk out there.

For example there is a guy out there who REVIEWS 1100 rooms.

He stays in each one for 3 months. Everything from George Washington is covered (over 200 years of internet research).

They then "recommend for a fee" the very best traders.

Here is one at the top of his list:

CFTC Charges Jody Dupont of South Carolina and His Company, Open Range Trading LLC, with Commodity Trading Advisor Fraud

Stick with proven winners and take the time to LEARN THIS PROFESSION.

Only a very few people out there actually advise LEARNING TO TRADE BEFORE you plunk down your own risk capital.

You need months if not years of education and then practice.

Why is this Profession any different from Law, Medicine and Engineering?

TB

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  #410 (permalink)
 
 
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TheBenefactor View Post
You have to avoid the most heavily advertised junk out there.

For example there is a guy out there who REVIEWS 1100 rooms.

He stays in each one for 3 months. Everything from George Washington is covered (over 200 years of internet research).

They then "recommend for a fee" the very best traders.

Here is one at the top of his list:

CFTC Charges Jody Dupont of South Carolina and His Company, Open Range Trading LLC, with Commodity Trading Advisor Fraud

Stick with proven winners and take the time to LEARN THIS PROFESSION.

Only a very few people out there actually advise LEARNING TO TRADE BEFORE you plunk down your own risk capital.

You need months if not years of education and then practice.

Why is this Profession any different from Law, Medicine and Engineering?

TB

You must be talking about Hanley, he is so obviously a fake, registered with DomainsByProxy.com etc. I recall. Though it is difficult to imagine anyone falling for his nonsense there will always be a percentage who are not so sharp. Hopefully the CFTC will have a look at him (they are the Watchman but they need to have complaints raised to act). They seem to be getting aggressive lately.

You might consider Elite membership, you would be surprised at what goes on. The things you mention are discussed all the time with beginners.

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  #411 (permalink)
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In my view, the question of whether somebody can build a sustainable trading business is a matter of what they are willing to sacrifice.

Trading requires sacrifice, a great deal more sacrifice than you are led to believe when you embark on this path. For a lot of us this means changing your entire frikken life, radically.

For instance: getting up at four a.m. to prepare for the trading day.

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  #412 (permalink)
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suko View Post
In my view, the question of whether somebody can build a sustainable trading business is a matter of what they are willing to sacrifice.

Trading requires sacrifice, a great deal more sacrifice than you are led to believe when you embark on this path. For a lot of us this means changing your entire frikken life, radically.

For instance: getting up at four a.m. to prepare for the trading day.

When they say to preserve your trading capital? Yes yes, you change your diet to gummy bears, Charms Blow Pops and Kraft Mac-n-Cheese! Boy, what a great enjoyable life we have chosen! Wheee!

Pardon me while I go snack on some tree bark!

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  #413 (permalink)
 
 
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HoopyTrading View Post
When they say to preserve your trading capital? Yes yes, you change your diet to gummy bears, Charms Blow Pops and Kraft Mac-n-Cheese! Boy, what a great enjoyable life we have chosen! Wheee!

Pardon me while I go snack on some tree bark!

When @suko said "embark" ...oh well, perhaps consider white willow bark then? Its a natural analgesic and saves on buying Tylenol.

FWIW I usually get up at 4 - 4.30 am (I'm on Chicago time), US open is half way through my day. Pays the bills.

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  #414 (permalink)
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This is a generalisation, so take it for what it is worth.

I think successful traders need to have a mindset where they are more greedy than fearful. Fearful traders avoid winners as much as losers, when the greed (or opportunistic) side is dominant, you will get right back in after getting stopped out for example, brush yourself off and keep going. The fearful trader will take the loss and move on. There is a lot of subtlety in this of course, many shades of gray so to speak but I think that asking yourself if you are failing, are you more greedy or more fearful, is a step many of us have to overcome.

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  #415 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

For every good trader out there, there are 100 more who think they can just copy someone else's method and start making money or join some trading room or download some expensive set of indicators, and be profitable.

Most of these guys have completely unrealistic expectations. They expect to take $10,000 and turn it into $100,000 at the end of the year, for example, even though they have no track record of performance or gains.

These people have no plan. They constantly blame their computer, their trading platform, their broker, their wife, their kids for missing trades or mistakes during a trade. They have no idea what to focus on or where to start.

And worse, most of them are unwilling to do the work. Yes, there are people for which that does not apply who are truly trying their best. But they are few and far between. Most people that are struggling aren't even willing to maintain a journal. Most people aren't willing to set realistic expectations. Most people aren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

On top of that, most of these guys aren't in a position in their life to even give trading a chance. Examples would be that they just lost their job. That is the worse time to start trading. Other examples would be that they have a job but no real savings, no money to burn in trading education expenses (and I don't mean from a trading room or buying a product). Worse still, many of these guys have no support from their wife or girlfriend because as you can imagine, they are losing money and also spending a lot of "free time" with trading instead of with their loved ones or kids. This is an impossible situation to put yourself in and expect good results.

So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on.

In fact, a lot of times my advice to these guys is to move on. Stop trading. Let's be real, if you are undercapitalized, unwilling to do the real work, and have no support from your family -- you aren't in a position to be a good trader.

But I also have to be honest, some times when I tell someone to stop trading, what I am really wanting them to do is come back and tell me NO, they will not stop, they are going to make it work. I mean if you really want this, then fight for it. But as I've said countless times before -- willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable.

We know that most people "give up" once they blow all or a significant portion of their initial deposit at a broker. This usually happens in less than 90 days according to brokers I've talked to. Most of these people aren't a part of any trading forum, and those that are, most of them are not participating, do not have a journal, have not taken time to ask questions or formulate a plan, etc. Again let's be honest: if anyone had taken the time to formulate a plan and prepare, they would not have allowed themselves to blow an account in 90 days.

For the rest, the ones that are members of futures.io (formerly BMT), I find that the overwhelming (close to 100%) of people that are struggling are the ones that have zero posts. I've come to look at this as an important metric. The ones that are uninvolved in the forum, for whatever reason, are going to be at a big disadvantage in my opinion. They lack a support network but also lack the benefit of accountability which is so critically important.

I've also found that these struggling traders are ones that haven't participated in any webinars. So that means they are unwilling to put in the time. They spend all their time, instead, on downloading indicators or searching for a new trading room to call trades.

OK so let me end by putting this out there... when is it the appropriate time to give up? Let's be honest, not everyone is cut out for trading. In fact, if we are honest, very few are. So it's cruel to string some of these guys along, it would be better for them to help them identify early on they don't have what it takes and they should move on.

Mike

Hey Mike, what exactly do you mean by the work required? Would you be able to pinpoint me to the required work for someone who wants to be a successful CONSISTENT trader.
Thank you.

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  #416 (permalink)
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Hey Mike, what exactly do you mean by the work required? Would you be able to pinpoint me to the required work for someone who wants to be a successful CONSISTENT trader.
Thank you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can't answer for Mike, but my answer would be--- All the time and energy and money that you will go through trying to find out the answer to two questions.

#1 What do the guys doing this for a living know that you don't know?
#2 Is there a way to make them tell?

95 to 97 people out of every 100 people doing this, think they know enough of the answer to question #1 that they will ruin marriages, loose sleep, and loose all their money because they think they know how to trade when in fact if they were honest the answer would be--- they really haven't a clue.

Answer to #2 is-- Will any one ever give you the directions to their buried treasure?

How to know when you know the answer to question #1--- you no longer even think about trading any more. It's just some thing you do.

Example-- today 12-05-16, turned on computer, entered a trade with in a few minutes, a few minutes later entered another trade and was done. 33 minutes total. There was a total of 12 trades today, but I only took 2. All 12 would of hit target. It's like this every day. This is what you are looking for.

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  #417 (permalink)
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farmer55 View Post

Answer to #2 is-- Will any one ever give you the directions to their buried treasure?

Most traders guard their "secret" or "edge" or whatever they want to call it. They feel like it's all their hard work and they don't want to give it away. "I've worked so hard on this I'm keeping it to myself" is the basic thought process. There may be more to it, but that is the general premise.

But .. I ask .. why not?

Let's say you give 100 people your "secret" and they understand and enter/exit exactly like you. Lets say all 100 of them trade 5 contracts. That's 500 contracts more that get traded at the same (or very close to the same) price as you. Which way does the market go? In your direction, even more quickly and likely with more force than when you kept it to yourself, and likely for larger wins than what it originally was before those extra 500 contracts started trading. Almost like giving yourself free $$.

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  #418 (permalink)
 
 
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spideysteve View Post
Most traders guard their "secret" or "edge" or whatever they want to call it. They feel like it's all their hard work and they don't want to give it away. "I've worked so hard on this I'm keeping it to myself" is the basic thought process. There may be more to it, but that is the general premise.

But .. I ask .. why not?

Let's say you give 100 people your "secret" and they understand and enter/exit exactly like you. Lets say all 100 of them trade 5 contracts. That's 500 contracts more that get traded at the same (or very close to the same) price as you. Which way does the market go? In your direction, even more quickly and likely with more force than when you kept it to yourself, and likely for larger wins than what it originally was before those extra 500 contracts started trading. Almost like giving yourself free $$.

Front running, aka tailgating. It works but unless your the broker you need to make sure everyone is on the same chart and your stop if you have one is safely away from theirs.

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  #419 (permalink)
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There is no secret, it's like watching porn; watch enough and you know when they are going to cum. Watch more, and you know when its real, enough of the time. But don't watch it, it's terrible for the mind.


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@Redhouse that is a way to put it alright.

(Edit: People could) study the Dunning-Kruger effect and self-reflect. Everyone at some level is affected by this however trading is different as running out of money and time is quite clearly delineated.

If you have worked in a job where personal charisma does not matter (it does not to the right edge) and always got fast promotions, been objectively judged by others as a consistent asset then you have a chance. The only problem is your probably not reading this as you are happy in your career and trading is gambling to you etc. etc.

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  #421 (permalink)
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Rory View Post
@Redhouse that is a way to put it alright.

Study the Dunning-Kruger effect and self-reflect. Everyone at some level is affected by this however trading is different as running out of money and time is quite clearly delineated.

If you have worked in a job where personal charisma does not matter (it does not to the right edge) and always got fast promotions, been objectively judged by others as a consistent asset then you have a chance. The only problem is your probably not reading this as you are happy in your career and trading is gambling to you etc. etc.


You are right, I'm in a funny mood today and there are clearly issues that I have been cheeky about. I shouldn't be jumping into threads I haven't fully read.

Truth is, I have played many roles and can relate to most on some level. I have experienced real struggles with things others around me *seemed* to get, trading included. I have a foot out of my career as I love this; however, I am fairly well networked.

It's not gambling to me, it's math. It's an equation with changing variables.


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Ok I should have separated the first line re @Redhouse from the general point I was making.

DK-5/10 for Rory. haha.

However, if other people really value your insight (and are not just buttering you up to do their work for them) then I recon thats a good part of the right stuff. Mike put it very well, after the brains, most fail as they have never worked hard. If other people have told you to stop working and go home as your doing too much, especially if they are the one paying you, that is a good sign.

Self confidence is nice however other people having regularly shown a willingness to put trust in you is the important bit.

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  #423 (permalink)
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Rory View Post
Ok I should have separated the first line re @Redhouse from the general point I was making.

DK-5/10 for Rory. haha.

However, if other people really value your insight (and are not just buttering you up to to their work for them) then I recon thats a good part of the right stuff. Mike put it very well, after the brains, most fail as they have never worked hard. If other people have told you to stop working and go home as your doing too much, especially if they are the one paying you, that is a good sign.

Self confidence is nice however other people having regularly shown a willingness to put trust in you is the important bit.


It's important to live in the real wold if not, as you say, charismatic. Economics are important even if economists are idiots. I am highly specialized (low supply) in an area with demand. That's why I am presented with opportunities.

This is why the charismatic and really good looking are crazy. Still not sure why I'm crazy.

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  #424 (permalink)
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emptymind View Post
Hey Mike, what exactly do you mean by the work required? Would you be able to pinpoint me to the required work for someone who wants to be a successful CONSISTENT trader.
Thank you.


Your not going to like my answer, but it is....A great deal of time.....thats it.
It's how you spend your time or what you spend it doing while trying to "learn" that is the deciding factor.

How to get consistent? go through a years worth of market replay and then do it over and over again and yes that is going to take ALOT of time. If you where to do this you will on ur own know what to do next without any of us having to tell you.
This is pretty much what was told to me, i felt it was unfair but its the truth and im better off from finding most of my answers on my own terms, there was still help from kind people and even some offered answers but i was either not ready or didn't understand what they ment which was the majority of the time.

Son a Bit*h now ive gone and deviated away from my journal and the train of thought i was in durning "market replay" :P gonna take a bit to get back into that mindset.....mite aswell go for a slurpee run, -30c check....truck wont even be warm by the time i hit the slurpee store check......frozen tasty treat on a frozen day, check.....to be canadian

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  #425 (permalink)
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Unless you love this, probably should do something else.


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  #426 (permalink)
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Rory View Post
Front running, aka tailgating. It works but unless your the broker you need to make sure everyone is on the same chart and your stop if you have one is safely away from theirs.

I was not thinking at all about front running. And yes, obviously everyone has to see the same thing/set up.

Would work better if it was automated and therefore a computer puts in the trades. You can debate/argue all day long about slippage/fills/one person has a faster data feed etc etc etc but that isn't the point here.

I wasn't being specific at all or trying to get in to a conversation about why such a thing couldn't (or doesn't) work .. just pointing out that there are things to think about within that entire "my treasure map and you're not fucking having it" thought process.

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  #427 (permalink)
 
 
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spideysteve View Post
I was not thinking at all about front running. And yes, obviously everyone has to see the same thing/set up.

Would work better if it was automated and therefore a computer puts in the trades. You can debate/argue all day long about slippage/fills/one person has a faster data feed etc etc etc but that isn't the point here.

I wasn't being specific at all or trying to get in to a conversation about why such a thing couldn't (or doesn't) work .. just pointing out that there are things to think about within that entire "my treasure map and you're not fucking having it" thought process.

There is no "treasure map" is the problem many often need to understand. I am not saying you don't understand this of course, I don't know you.

Many in the training industry over simplify and dissemble to sell books and courses. If anyone saw a book that read "play professional violin in the philharmonic! just three easy chords!" they would laugh. The same thing happens in trading and experienced traders (feeding themselves anyway) are asked to be serenely patient with it. The stock "you can do it if you try hard" comes out to deflect from being confronted with an angry and bitter man. My guitar teacher was pretty scary some days but I accepted that as a cultural norm. One day and surprisingly quickly he said my homework was to interpret music my own way and told me to come back in three months. I trusted him and did what he asked.

I've tried to teach several assistants, I was a professional trainer at one stage so I'm not awful. Out of maybe 20 (12 I put effort into), a couple sort of did basic study without being nagged every two days. The one who is now a rich trader? I gave her some notes, taught her how to use replay etc. and half forgot she existed as she did not contact me. Over six months later I get a call , "I have what you told me to do mastered, what next?".

My closest thing to a map for me personally is the attached diagram. I picked up enough from others to understand the rules of trading, I've figured it out myself since then.

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  #428 (permalink)
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@Rory when I was referring to the treasure map I was talking about the post by @farmer55

Very cool pic. I've gone through it in other stages of life, as have most people when learning a new skill or profession. Most people just don't actually think of it in that way.

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spideysteve View Post
[MENTION=56063]
Very cool pic. I've gone through it in other stages of life, as have most people when learning a new skill or profession. Most people just don't actually think of it in that way.

I sent it to one guy and he got in a massive huff over the word "incompetent" being used. Some people are just totally useless, with 7.4 billion and rising fast, more and more never once experience being outside the first standard deviation at anything even with some raw talent. "You can do it if you try hard enough" is the new opiate of the masses maybe

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  #430 (permalink)
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Rory View Post
I sent it to one guy and he got in a massive huff over the word "incompetent" being used. Some people are just totally useless, with 7.4 billion and rising fast, more and more never once experience being outside the first standard deviation at anything even with some raw talent. "You can do it if you try hard enough" is the new opiate of the masses maybe

Indeed. I can relate to that in a big way.

I saw a similar pic (exact wording tho) years ago. I've shown it to apprentices of mine (I'm an electrician) and most don't get it. They have an entitlement mentality and just don't seem to understand that they have to work and practice to be good. Eventually most figure it out, but I've met journeymen who still haven't gotten there.

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  #431 (permalink)
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my mantra was always i have to be able to come back and do this again tomorrow no matter what with a family to provide for that lasted me 20 yrs in the pits

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  #432 (permalink)
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What an awesome thread. I decided not to trade live today, take a breather, refine my strategy and trade sim after a bad last couple weeks. Basically clear my head and try to reset myself. These replies have been very helpful to read and I realize my psychology has gotten away from me lately. I recently quit my job due to a really bad work situation so I've been job searching and spending almost all of my free time trading. I started thinking that I was ready to make this work full time, but have realized I still have a long way to go with this journey

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  #433 (permalink)
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"Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' it will happen.

All the time the universe has for people to understand this

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tomas262 View Post
"Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' it will happen.

All the time the universe has for people to understand this

I think Jesus must have been one of the earliest motivational speakers

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  #435 (permalink)
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Let me ask anyone, as far as educational aspect. What classes, would help in trading. I am new, and love this. I do have a journal, and keep track of everything.information is vast, who is real and fake.

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  #436 (permalink)
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Troybuddy81 View Post
Let me ask anyone, as far as educational aspect. What classes, would help in trading. I am new, and love this. I do have a journal, and keep track of everything.information is vast, who is real and fake.

Big Mike had previously asked that we not turn this into a vendor thread, so I won't make any recommendations here. Rather, I would refer you to this thread - - where you can pick up several books that may or may not be useful. Not trying to be flippant, but I have not reviewed every book in that thread and there are only very few trading books I regarded as good. Secondly, unless you have experienced a lot of the items the good books discuss, you may not appreciate them as much as you should.

The below quote is one I find rather relevant.


Big Mike View Post
The good thing is, there are at minimum two very distinct groups on futures.io (formerly BMT). Those that spend all their time searching for the holy grail -- they are always in the vendor threads, always looking for a new mentor, a new educator, a new indicator, a new system, a new trading room to show them how to be a better trader.

Then there are those who are journaling about their trading every day, have laid out their trading plan, are posting their trades, and are reviewing themselves for strengths and weaknesses on an ongoing basis, and therefore improving themselves on an ongoing basis without "searching" externally for the answer.

So there is hope

Mike

Certain books did help me in my trading journey and the way I trade now is quite different from the way I expected to trade. However, I first needed to try a lot of things that weren't working in order to appreciate the things that do work.

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  #437 (permalink)
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I have already learned alot about myself as a person. My most recent lesson was switching trades, into a trade I didn't have any research on. Results. Lost 2 weeks of good trading to break even. After a weekend of psychological research. I'm lucky that the trade was unsuccessful.

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  #438 (permalink)
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Troybuddy81 View Post
Let me ask anyone, as far as educational aspect. What classes, would help in trading. I am new, and love this. I do have a journal, and keep track of everything.information is vast, who is real and fake.

Hi Troybuddy81

Wrong thread. For general advice I suggest you post in the "Traders hideout" section.

Link here https://futures.io/traders-hideout/


EDIT: did not see @grausch already replied

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  #439 (permalink)
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Yeah, totally agree with you. Great post. In my view attitude to something is very important and self confidence is another thing everyone should have. One can fall but need the power to rise again.

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FXwulf View Post
Threads like this really get to the heart and soul of who we really are as people IMHO.

Thank you everyone for being vulnerable and expressing your stories, feelings, and journey on here. I apologize about the length of this but I hope it reaches some traders and perhaps opens some eyes.

In my very humble opinion making a career as a trader has much to do with sacrifice. I often sit out on my surfboard in the open ocean and reminisce about my journey to become a successful professional trader. Although I have "made it" , and achieved consistent financial independence over the past 6 years, the cost has proven extremely great.

I was 26 when i started trading, I was a professional bodybuilder and fitness trainer with no formal education in anything remotely close to finance. I had a young wife who was my lifes love and 2 children (6 and 10 years old at that time).

Clearly defining what i took as my "strengths' that gave me success in my life( Iron discipline and the ability to execute a plan unerringly), I took to the markets guns blazing.

Guys Im really not trying to discourage or encourage anyone. I am mearly attempting to inject a dose of realism into a trade where unrealistic expectations run paramount by sharing my experiences and the rewards/repercussions of it.
I hear stories all the time of people saying how they are the types "who never give up", or who " will always persevere no matter what because they KNOW they can do it!" And other such colloquialisms.

Such a pollyannic attitude of thinking that "if you just hang in there long enough eventually you will win out", or that "if you win some sort of war of attrition with the market ultimately you will become a great trader" is just suicidal. We are inundated in society with the "Rocky" movies and other such "against all odds" type scenarios. Fellas, there is a REASON that these are movies. They are the dream, and they are absolutely the exception to the norm. Primarily done by exceptional people with untapped exceptional qualities.

We ALL want to be like that. We all love to think we are able to separate from the masses. And possibly in some ways we can. In fact I happen to have been an extremely successful champion bodybuilder. It took a massive amount of dedication, work, discipline and fortitude to bring a 265lb shredded physique to a stage. THAT was my gift and I found that trading took that PLUS a WHOLE lot more.

I put in my 10,000 hours of trading forex. I went to the ends of the internet and back. I focused on money management, risk analysis, price action, fundamental analysis, etc etc...

ENDLESS hours with no sleep... studying studying... persevering in some blind hope that I could achieve the same successes as many we hear about...

But... Success escaped me.... The doors just kept closing, accounts just kept slowly dwindling down... and the dream was dying a very quiet death.... All the while i found my interpersonal relationships with my wife and kids starting to suffer... More on that later..

I think perhaps it boils down to more than just "Can i make it in trading?" It is more a question of " Do I want to LIVE the traders life?" Frankly I feel that the vast majority are not near adequately ready to answer that question nor are most in anyway prepared for what an undertaking it is.

Being a zero sum business it is truly a journey into a complete unknown hostile battlefield for most without the help of even a compass or a weapon. In alignment with that analogy the odds are overwhelmingly against most. As somber of a thought as that may be, it is the hard truth.

I personally went through a very in-depth study of the marketplace after my first 6 months of floundering about. I studied the infrastructure of what creates the markets(forex, futures, equities, options, bonds, warrants, etc..). I studied how liquidity works, how are orders are filled, the interbank system. I learned about all the players across all the major markets, how they place their orders, what their aims are(commercial, institutional, CB's and retailers, etc). I studied Price Action for endless hours, staring at charts, plotting lines at support/resistance/supply/demand levels on all time frames to trade to and from. I studied the intricacies of market timing, the Gold fixes, how swap works, how brokers work. I went into in depth studies and read books on fundamental analysis. I learned a tremendous amount about the bond markets, yield curves, gold/oil ratios, correlating markets. I read every central bank book I could find. I know about the Fed top to bottom, the ECB, the RBA, the BOE. From the major players in those banks to how they originated. I studied fractional reserve banking because i wanted to learn how to asses how any of the policy makers could move the prices of currencies in relationship to one another. I read endless books on orderflow and macroeconomics. I strived to try and understand how and why certain policies and catalysts around the world would move one currency agaisnt the others.

All this time endlessly looking at charts. Hours and hours spent putting in demo trade after demo trade testing and endlessly testing.

I never believed in any technical indicators. I still dont. I always just traded Naked charts. Maybe at the most I used a stochastic early on but id be hard pressed to explain what almost any of the other lagging indicators does. To me they have never made sense. Trust me, I studied ALL of them in massive detail.

I placed together my system using multiple time frames with S/R, S/D zones, fundamental drivers, watching for news catalysts, my endless charting knowledge of PA, my risk management in place, looking at market timing, pre-panning my trades, etc etc..... it met with failure time and time again. days turned to weeks and weeks turned to months as I tried tweaking and adjusting, studying harder, working more and more. I REFUSED to be undone! I changed my risk management, time frames, used only PA I thought had the BEST chances of working. I called on help from every trader more veteran than myself and they all gave me advice. Still, I failed.

I figured it must be my psychology. So I delved heavily into self exploration, meditation, read books. Sought out gurus, got my mind right. Tried to identify my fears of losing or attachement to money. I made Goals, endless goals. Every day. I planned my life 10 years into the future in every aspect i could to achieve the "trading mindset".

I felt as ready as ever and went back into the market. More months fell off the chart as my accounts kept slowly dwindling down and dying. If I was using a 3:1 reward to risk Id lose 4 out of 5 trades consistently. It was always a slow bleed.

I then went the path of trying to find a mentor. Someone who could help me to identify my flaws in my trading/self and guide me to correct them. At this point years had already been spent and frustration was starting to set in. I had sacrificed much. My family had fallen apart, my work was suffering, as was my health(which I had prided myself on for my whole life) from the many nights up late trading and focusing. Trying to self sustain on negative returns.

Relentlessly I pushed on.

The mentors all were dead ends. I was watching my close friends starting to achieve success. They tried to help me, going so far as to try and copy their systems. All met with more failure.

More years went by. My wife and love left me with the kids. I made sure the door didnt hit them in the ass on their way out....Such was my obsession to not be undone...

Success did not come with it.

I moved into studying the quantside of trading. Learning to program code. Momentum trading, mean-reversion trading, Sharpe ratio, etc etc. Trying to learn to achieve positive kurtosis through algo identification of price trends. I delved deeply into this thinking that maybe, just maybe it was my only way. I ran into a brick wall. My algos would get taken out, my hidden markov models did not have the proper risk management protocols built in to keep me safe from many of the hidden liquidity issues in the fx markets and again.... suffice to say, I again was met with more defeat

At this point, utterly defeated, not knowing where to turn. I withdrew deeply into myself and saw what my life had become. I had become a shell of who i once was. I took a long break and a long period of self reflection and came to the end of my rope.

I was busted, homeless, alone, living in my car and sustaining on $.29 taco Tuesdays at taco bell. I showered at the gym and studied trading on Starbucks Wifi. I had no idea where my wife or kids were until the divorce papers showed up at my parents house since i didnt have a physical address.

When doors open in life. It is wise to walk through them. I believe we all have a calling. Im not religious, but I believe in a higher "self. To listen to the signs of life makes life much easier and it goes more smoothly. It was only after this realization I finally made my decision that the doors were firmly closed on my decision to become a trader. I learned a great deal about finance, markets, ect... but Mostly about myself.


I am far from a fascinating case study. I committed to giving my all to learning these markets much like many other aspiring traders start out. I was never one to easily give up on anything in life.

Tenacity and discipline has given me many of the things in my life I am the most proud of as well as thankful for. There just came a point to where the cost benefit of working to master the markets and live the "lifestyle" became more than I was willing to pay.

I ended up one night sitting on the beach, utterly destroyed, with the barrel of a loaded .44 between my teeth. I sobbed and sobbed and cried out to whatever powers that be that if this was the end for me just give me the strength the pull the trigger.... I got my answer when i woke up in the morning, soaking wet and freezing cold, but alive. That was my bottom.

I was still certain it was possible to trade these markets successfully. There is far to much evidence to support it and I would never be so obtuse as to argue in opposition. I simply came to the simple realization that we are all NOT created equal, nor do we all have the same capacity for successes and failures in different ventures in this life.

I ultimately realized the fact that maybe I had overcomplicated a more simplistic business. That being said it is quite a feat "unlearning" everything. Armed with the knowledge I had nothing to lose I resolved to cut out as much as possible to create a trading system that was simplistic, profitable, and viable. With what i had been through the concepts of losing money being the worst thing that could happen simply disappeared and I started to see profit in my trading.

Then more profits, and MORE profits. To my astonishment in less than 12 months I reached a peak watermark in my finances for life. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about my health or my relationships. I have never met anyone else and feel as though I have truly sacrificed my true soulmate for my fiscal successes. My children dont want to see me as Im afraid I destroyed those relationships too in their formative years in my unrelenting pursuit of success in trading.

All this being said, I have accepted my life where it is. I am listening more than ever to my "inner-self" and going along with the type of life that I feel is more in alignment with who I want to show up as in life. I opened up a small training studio and have rekindled my passion for helping others through fitness.

The vast majority of traders are extremely introverted and highly analytical. While I am certainly the latter, I am by no means the former. Trading is a lonely business. Traders do not really give anything meaningful back to society in the way that doctors, engineers, teachers, and any other more humanitarian type career does. I personally always had a difficult time with that aspect. As a personal trainer by trade I have always loved the aspect of helping people look better, feel more youthful, and improve the quality of an individuals life . It is a different sort of gratification than watching the GBP/JPY go +50 pips in profit. I am sure we have all heard of and possibly lived(I know i have) through a personal relationship falling apart due to the demands of the financial markets. It, by the very nature, breeds isolation from the rest of society.

Knowing who we are from what we are not is an integral part of our lessons in this world. Once you do know who and what you are it is wise to act in accordance to it.

Make certain the cost of what you want to do with this business is what you are prepared to bear


Wulf

Incredible story @FXwulf. Unfortunately I only have one thanks to give.

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  #441 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
What about the guys who are doing things right?

- Only trading with money they can afford to lose
- Open and honest with their spouse, kids
- Steady income outside of trading that is more than sufficient to cover all life expenses while learning to trade
- Realistic expectations, knows that is likely to lose for a long time before starting to win, part of education
- Spends all of his time on research, homework, statistics, and review -- and not on indicators or trading rooms
- Creates accountability with a journal and his support network of trading friends, and his spouse

List continues.

For these guys, this thread does not apply. In fact, for these guys, they should be applauded for their conservative approach instead of thrill seeking holy grail fixation.

Mike

I don't know if it's possible but I think the advice in this post should be the front screen to futures.io
If you haven't got all that is mentioned in those bullet points then statistically speaking you're pretty much certain to fail.

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  #442 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
So is trading unique in this area, or does this apply to everything in life?

For example, if someone simply has the willpower to be better than Tiger Woods or Michael Jordon, or if someone had the willpower to land on the moon instead of Neil Armstrong, does this mean that they have a chance in hell?

No, it does not.

Willpower alone is not nearly enough. Willpower is a prerequisite. It is not an advantage or edge.

Not everyone is cut out to be a trader.

Mike

But many don't see this. It's a mirrors game. Here is the trick: many pursue this avenue as they see it as the "easy" way/answer to all their problems. I believe many of us felt this in day 1 of this journey. There are some persisting in this state for years and years (is this what you see @BigMike here on the forum?)
So, for those experiencing a set-back in they pre-trading life, the journey is twice as hard, as they have the wrong motivation & mind-set all-together: trading is seen as a short-cut to all their problems and a way to avoid facing life's reality. There is however a small procentage that wake up to reality and can steer direction through the rough lessons market teaches them.

Nonetheless, to be successfull in this avenue, the very skills that would make anyone successful in their day to day non-trading life, are a must - I believe.
1) Do you have a happy life now outside of trading? Yes : then more likely than not, you're more fit to succeed in this.
2) Do you have a miserable life (such as jobless, etc) - then likely you're not best fit for this.

3) But if you're in situation 1, why would you pursue this - unless you have a real passion for it ... no reason whatsoever.

People giving up their job to pursue this are a different kind of animal: they're aware of their abilities, they could have been full time employees to their pension, but they want to change something. They want more. This % is small. 2 & 3 probably account for the 95% of the turnover in this business.

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  #443 (permalink)
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I used to blow up! I would add to a loser, miss my stops, and be like a deer in the headlights. I am finally over that but now am b/e since I kill winners too soon. Advice?

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  #444 (permalink)
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reallypo View Post
I used to blow up! I would add to a loser, miss my stops, and be like a deer in the headlights. I am finally over that but now am b/e since I kill winners too soon. Advice?

@reallypo,
What made you b/e?

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  #445 (permalink)
Colorado Springs Colo/USA
 
 
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What made you b/e?



I quit adding to losers. I honor my stops. Now I have the fear of losing so I take profit way too quick

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  #446 (permalink)
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reallypo View Post
What made you b/e?



I quit adding to losers. I honor my stops. Now I have the fear of losing so I take profit way too quick

Does it mean your winners now are +/- equal to losers?

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  #447 (permalink)
Colorado Springs Colo/USA
 
 
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Does it mean your winners now are +/- equal to losers?

I cut my winners very short but on the flip side I am not tolerant of losses. If the trade starts to go against me I am out!

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  #448 (permalink)
Dubai UAE
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 59 since Jul 2017
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What timeframe do you trade? And what is the main technique (reasoning) behind cutting your winners? Or just blindly "it went too far..."

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  #449 (permalink)
Colorado Springs Colo/USA
 
 
Posts: 8 since Dec 2017
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What timeframe do you trade? And what is the main technique (reasoning) behind cutting your winners? Or just blindly "it went too far..."

5 min chart-- No reason other then fear, dont want to be wrong, dont want to take a loss. No technical reason to exit when I do

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  #450 (permalink)
Dubai UAE
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 59 since Jul 2017
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You may try this thread:

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  #451 (permalink)
Colorado Springs Colo/USA
 
 
Posts: 8 since Dec 2017
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THANK YOU

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  #452 (permalink)
Dubai UAE
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 59 since Jul 2017
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That's just to start with. While solving your mental issues, suggest you carefully think over technical aspects of your trading. When you do anything, you should clearly understand WHY exactly you are doing that. And I really mean that. While suggesting this to you, I'm talking same to myself)
Just my .25

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  #453 (permalink)
Charlotte, North Carolina
 
 
Posts: 29 since Feb 2018
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I totally agree. I was once broke like all young men lol, and at that time I learn how to trade and it was a basic system I copied from someone else. My trades would produce but at the same time I would get excited and loose money because I was too desperate to make money.

As time went on I stopped trading because I realized my need for money was making me take bad trades. I kept following the market, jumping to other systems and trying to reinvent the wheel.

THINGS I LEARNED.
I wont say back testing is useless but, like everything it has its place in testing a theory.

Being in "NEED" of money will make you a terrible trader.

Keep things simple, start with a naked chart and really keep it naked for a while

Trading is like going to school or getting a degree. It takes time and everyone develops differently.

Like a book I once read said "THE MARKETS CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS TO DO" - Mark Douglas, Trading in the Zone.

Overnight success is not going to happen unless you put in the time and work.

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  #454 (permalink)
stuttgart+germany
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NT8/ TWS
Broker: IB / SIERRA
Trading: ES/YM/NQ/FDAX/CL
 
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i read the thread and i will not quit. i am a newbie, i lost almost 25K...making almost everything wrong.
i work as a engineer in germany...so i can trade the american market in the european evening.
now i joined this forum and i am willing to work hard and to learn and to master myself.
i will start a journal here, for mirroring myself.
i have until now no exact trading plan...no good money/risk management and no system.
i know that my lotsize and my risk is far to big. i have to start at zero and learn from the beginning on.

this is a great froum and my goal is to grow as human and as a trader.

critics, help and other views are allways welcomeamd excuse my english i am no native speaker.

Gianmarco

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  #455 (permalink)
Australia
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: PRT
Trading: CL ES DAX
 
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danny6787 View Post

Being in "NEED" of money will make you a terrible trader.

Yes it's a strange law of life that if you need something, you don't get it. Works in reverse too - the less need, the greater the abundance and opportunity. It's entirely determined by your early life programming, and the probability that you will succeed any more than your parents is near zero.

To the extent that technical backtesting can find a real edge in the markets, it's importance will be completely eclipsed by the emotional makeup of the man trading it.

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  #456 (permalink)
Ocala, Florida
 
 
Posts: 104 since Jan 2019
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n3xtl3v3l View Post
i read the thread and i will not quit. i am a newbie, i lost almost 25K...making almost everything wrong.
i work as a engineer in germany...so i can trade the american market in the european evening.
now i joined this forum and i am willing to work hard and to learn and to master myself.
i will start a journal here, for mirroring myself.
i have until now no exact trading plan...no good money/risk management and no system.
i know that my lotsize and my risk is far to big. i have to start at zero and learn from the beginning on.

this is a great froum and my goal is to grow as human and as a trader.

critics, help and other views are allways welcomeamd excuse my english i am no native speaker.

Gianmarco

I have made similar mistakes.
I WILL SUCCEED!
What I need is a community and a mentor; I do understand that the psychological component is key to success.
However; for me it is psychologically difficult to learn this skill in a "vacuum".
The good thing about all this is that I will have witnesses to my success.
Time will tell!

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  #457 (permalink)
Legendary Pratik_4Clover
Mumbai, India
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Own Customized
Trading: Crude, NIFTY, BANKNIFTY
 
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Posts: 752 since Jan 2019
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This thread is one of those gems on internet that talks about your internal and external trouble on path of being trader.

Thank you for making it and keeping it active guys.

My 2c here are two simple thoughts, I always tell them to new comers but its kind of sad that no one takes it seriously.
1. You can not fool markets, you may fool others but can never do that to markets. Its always in no gray area, you are either successful or not, either you can make it or not. Many start call services and trainings after realizing this.
2. Trading is a discipline, I kid you not, ppl with very good systems sometimes do not make money, it can be frustrating thing when that happens and it has happened to me. But that is when you start to look inwards, maybe you find your answers there. You will be only as successful as disciplined you are.

If you are not honest to yourself and market, if you are not disciplined, you shouldn't be in this business. Its a very very harsh life to be a trader if you lack those two.

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  #458 (permalink)
Pensacola FL
 
 
Posts: 57 since Jun 2016


reallypo View Post
What made you b/e?



I quit adding to losers. I honor my stops. Now I have the fear of losing so I take profit way too quick

Hire a professional coach. Like Tiger Woods. Everyone asks how they can improve themselves.
This is the only profession where amateurs think they can buy a stupid book like that clown is selling on CNBC for $29.00 about the secret of dark pools. And teach themselves.

You dont see questions like this coming from candidates who want to be doctors, lawyers, engineers, special ed teachers etc etc.

Only in the world of trading is education debunked.

To wit: "If you are so good why are you teaching people to trade?"

Why dont they say that about Harvard Business School? "If they are so good shouldnt they all start their own businesses and stop teaching MBA'S?"

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  #459 (permalink)
New York + New York / USA
 
 
Posts: 76 since Jan 2020
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Some of us are autodidactic..
went to bronx science... made my living in application engineering without degrees.
so... some of us CAN learn from the words of others... but most dont or cant (i admit)

its not so simple a world..

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  #460 (permalink)
Pensacola FL
 
 
Posts: 57 since Jun 2016

If it were that simple everyone would be Tom Brady.

I can give trades out every day, world class trades, like buy the break out over yesterday's high in Dow.

I like to think I am Tom Brady of Trading. Certainly have a better win rate. Sadly when I was 25 I could throw a football longer -- 73 yards, so why didnt I stay with my college football team?

Fear of success!

1 - out of 11 traders will follow trades we suggest. Even those I have proven that win most days.

Human nature.

We are programmed from birth -- DONT TOUCH THAT. EAT YOUR SPINACH BEFORE ICE CREAM. COLLEGES TEACH US TO BE GOOD EMPLYEES NOT INNOVATORS. Maybe Harvard, Yale, MIT.

Even Trump took a while before he believed he could really become president.

I suggested it to him, STRONGLY, in 1996 when his limo broke down and I drove him to the Pottstown K-Mart to shop for school supplies for Don Jr. at the Hill school.

He said, "I make more money in a day than the president. Look what happened to Ross. No one will ever elect a Billionaire--too much jealousy."

Hmmmmmm.
TB

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  #461 (permalink)
Calgary + Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 3 since Sep 2018
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TheBenefactor View Post
If it were that simple everyone would be Tom Brady.

I can give trades out every day, world class trades, like buy the break out over yesterday's high in Dow.

I like to think I am Tom Brady of Trading. Certainly have a better win rate. Sadly when I was 25 I could throw a football longer -- 73 yards, so why didnt I stay with my college football team?

Fear of success!

1 - out of 11 traders will follow trades we suggest. Even those I have proven that win most days.

Human nature.

We are programmed from birth -- DONT TOUCH THAT. EAT YOUR SPINACH BEFORE ICE CREAM. COLLEGES TEACH US TO BE GOOD EMPLYEES NOT INNOVATORS. Maybe Harvard, Yale, MIT.

Even Trump took a while before he believed he could really become president.

I suggested it to him, STRONGLY, in 1996 when his limo broke down and I drove him to the Pottstown K-Mart to shop for school supplies for Don Jr. at the Hill school.

He said, "I make more money in a day than the president. Look what happened to Ross. No one will ever elect a Billionaire--too much jealousy."

Hmmmmmm.
TB



just copying pictures straight from google now days eh?

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  #462 (permalink)
Rochester, NY USA
 
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: GC
 
Posts: 66 since Dec 2018
Thanks: 11 given, 37 received

Just wanted to add my experience to this thread. I have been trading for nearly 3 years now and I am the epitome of the beginner trader. I have been all over the place: binary options, options, futures, options, selling premium, buying premium, futures, options and now futures again. I have thrown every indicator on my chart looking for the grail. Spoiler alert - none of that shit works.

I am naturally risk adverse - I have worked in risk management in my professional life and I calculate risks in my personal life daily. However, when I started trading that all went out the window. Just to clarify, I have yet to blow up an account but the lack of risk management for me comes from having no plan, no strategy, no journal, no tracking, not doing my homework, etc. I quit my job in Aug 2018 to trade FT and had immediate success. I was up a few $K before giving it all back in late 2018. Instead of reviewing my trades and what I had been doing I changed everything, then I changed it again, and again, and again. Before I knew it I couldn't even remember what I was doing originally. Fortunately, I stopped all together instead of throwing money at the market. In early 2019 I met a guy who changed everything for me. I had never even considered the psychological component of trading until I met him. We did some personal evaluations and based on my answers to money and the market in general, he concluded I was a scalp trader. I did that for the next 7 months and had some success but the hectic nature of scalping and the 18 wins in a row, followed by a 50% win rate over my next 54 trades was way too stressful for me. Plus, it was not consistent enough to live on. I went back to work in Sept 2019 and took 2 months off of trading.

I got back to work with that guy again in mid-Nov and have adapted the way I trade. I am an accountant by trade and am use to models and forecasts and thought that a little longer term trading was better suited my personality. While my consistency and success as a trader is still to be determined I have a much more relaxed approach to the markets. I have a written plan, rules, loss limits, a strategy to follow, I review my trades and some times, I just watch the markets move and take notes with the intention of taking 0 trades. I see a therapist once a month and talk about the why's and the what's of my being; focusing on the mental side of trading has helped me with the actual trading side of trading. I do not fear putting trades on, I do not "take profits too early", I just trade the plan and learn from my mistakes. I want to make this my profession as I am enamored with everything about the markets. However, my timeline now is no timeline. I am just taking it one trade at a time until the data tells me that I am where I need to be to consider doing this FT again. That answer also relates to my personal situation and not just so much of whether I have "had 2 consecutive months of profitability equal to or greater than my current gross income". I am by no means saying I have perfected it as there are still some things about me that I have to deal with (perfectionist being one of them) but I am more self aware than before. I think being self aware is a huge hurdle for most traders and once they attain that they can then begin the trading journey.

Ultimately I believe you have to be willing to meet your true self if you truly want to make it in this business. I have the support of my wife, a stable financial base, the willingness to learn and improve. Now I just need to continue putting in the requisite amount of work to be a better performer and (hopefully) in due time I will be lucky enough to call myself a day trader.

f1p

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  #463 (permalink)
Portland, ME
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Jigsaw, TOS, Firetip
Trading: YM, MYM, stocks, options
 
Posts: 51 since Feb 2020
Thanks: 17 given, 79 received

I'm "mentoring" a guy who I believe he should just QUIT and save his money!
He's somewhat financially stable, maybe not the best shape to be actively trading, but his major hurdle is that he's JUST NOT BUILT TO BE A TRADER! He's trying hard and can't do anything at all right, but he doesn't always take advice I've given which could help him (make a journey at least for himself).

His confidence is low, in general. He's older, so less testosterone, not that it's hugely important, but when I say low confidence? I mean like almost zero. He second guesses every trade all the time and isn't decisive (gets chopped up badly).

He's afraid to trade any key levels or the open and has consistantly gotten on the wrong side now for probably 2 straight weeks. I had to tell him to get back onto Demo due to his flaws. Constantly he wants to go short, no matter what. Bias always short. He tends to talk a lot and overthink sh*t, likes to try to "predict" or forcast. I keep telling him to stop that crap. He's read zero books.

His little $5,000 account is already down to $3,400. And this is trading 1-2 micro contracts on the dow... Like how the heck does someone consistently lose that well ?!?! Granted that's not a huge sum of money, but the losing is so consistently perfect I feel like banging my head on the wall LOL.

It's not his life savings, he's going to be fine, but it's sad to see someone who's got no job and struggling to trade.
His overal attitude and expressions are kinda lame, slow, and depressed looking. Like very defeated looking, which tells me that this is 80% psychological. To pull out of a losing period you have to have some balls and confidence and be mentally ready to keep taking risk the next day.

He could trade well if he would actually listen to me though. Even though he's mostly not built to trade.
His mentality comes from growing up on a FARM. Not sure where I heard this, but obviously the risk taking approach growing up on a farm and idea of money/time is going to be the worst perspective, built in from childhood.
I've gotta literally break him apart... When you live on a farm, you have a desire for security and never knowing how much your crop will yield makes them very risk averse. Also trying to find how he can leverage that strength of his, by swing trading ETF on the long side without leverage, since these are really great levels to buy and hold anyways LOL.

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  #464 (permalink)
Tel Aviv, Israel
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Ninjatrader
Trading: ES, CL
 
Posts: 66 since Mar 2014
Thanks: 61 given, 86 received

Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

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  #465 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Bangor, Maine, U.S.
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Trading: MNQ
 
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Posts: 540 since Sep 2018
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mzelixon View Post
Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

I'm in a similar position. I've been at it for 2 years, and I haven't made a dime yet! But what keeps me around is knowing that this will probably take much longer than 2 years, and it might cost a lot more than the money I've already lost or think I'll lose. There's a reason only a few make it. I've underestimated this game over and over again, thinking I've figured it out, to only lose all my gains the next week or month (in fact, I just lost all of last weeks gains this week and a little bit more ). I think that's just part of the process and I believe that having doubt is part of it too. I think the question is, how much are you really willing to give? At what point do you think you should stop trading? Some would say 2 years and 7 grand is nothing.

What helps is being well-capitalized, having very low expectations, and especially being detached from the idea of making money any time soon. The most important thing for me is to remember to keep my head up, accept the losses and losing streaks when they come and to actually learn from them.

Just know that you're not alone and there's realistically more struggle ahead. Attitude is really important, although it's hard to have a good one all the time.. Do the best you can, genuinely.

There's nothing to think about.

- Mark Douglas
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  #466 (permalink)
Bracknell/UK
 
Platform: PRT
Broker: IG
 
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Posts: 17 since Nov 2017
Thanks: 244 given, 19 received

Hello dear fellow traders.


Not much of a poster but I think for newer guys and everyone in the trading business it should ring bells. Those with a few or 5 years into the game working ass off full time exploring, researching, applying, backtesting etc etc can take a deep breath and just relax. This business takes 10-20+ years to get consistently profitable and improve going forward being able to adapt to changing market regimes and volatility. It's just my own opinion from what I have gathered in my 13yrs of learning to trade. Blew a few account when started clueless then just learned the method I thought was "the one" to trade on paper for some years. But the markets changed and that edge became useless even though I continued to practice it on the daily basis for years. Met a superb intraday/swing quant trader 4 years ago and he opened my eyes. So few years ago learned to write simple code and now am able to test simple ideas or systems on the fly. Thats a huge advantage on its own being able to do that. So being in the game full time for 13 years im still work in progress but with a lot smarter mindset, tools and abilities then before. Is that enough? Hell no. Heres another puzzle. To be really good at your craft and to be able to beat the odds we have to use custom built tools to suit our needs and hopefully provide an edge in whatever stuff we are doing. Have to think outside the box and be different from the crowd, go the other unexplored ways to look for edges. Easier said then done, right. Do I know someone making a killing doing what Ive described here? Yes I do. Are there really great traders that are able to trade in every market regime and still make a killing? Yes there are, just that they don't share much of what and how they do as its taken then many years and losses and whatever sacrifices that came along the way. And there are many along the way when you are really eating, living and breathing the markets.


Learning never stops even after 13 years the fire is burning even more. It's a solo game. Don't know anyone else in the same boat around me and hope that nobody has to go through the path I went through falling in every shit hole you possible can. But then again on the flipside thats exactly how we learn as we learn from failures and not successes so before climbing to the top of the mountain be sure to blow a minimum a few accounts and get ready for a roller coaster ride of your life trying to solve worlds hardest puzzle


Best regards,
Bel.

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  #467 (permalink)
Manila, PH
 
 
Posts: 6 since Aug 2016
Thanks: 1 given, 15 received


mzelixon View Post
Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

Been there.

I've got a little over ten years on you age wise, and started later than you. I also watched some money disappear a few times. Each time I would get frustrated, consider quitting, go through the pain cycle, then re-focus on my development. After a few times of this I thought of quitting again... but refused.

I have found trading to be one giant puzzle with many different pieces. The method or style one uses, focused on "entries and exits" is just one piece of the whole puzzle. Personal habits & beliefes (aka - psychology) is a piece. Appetite for risk, and a balanced lifestyle is a piece. A true understanding of position sizing is a piece. Expectations, timelines, goals - another piece. The willingness to be mentored, tutored, trained by others - another piece.

The more I started to spend time on the other pieces that I avoided, or didn't truly appreciate early on, the more the puzzle started to come together. Once the puzzle starts to come together, you start to see what it looks like - and then it becomes easier and faster to locate the missing pieces and put them where they need to go.

Things that made the biggest difference for me:
-Find someone that is an expert in your field and become a student. I spent 2.5 years on my own, and the growth from a mentor made a huge difference.
-Discipline. Practice as much as you can. Find ways to make practice easier or more convenient so that you do more of it (tablets, phones, printouts, quizlet - whatever it takes)
-Read voraciously. Van Tharp, Denise Shull, Mark Douglas, Ari Kiev all helped me. Mike Bellafiore's books "One Good Trade" and "The Playbook" helped me realize the system and work ethic I needed to build.
-Balance your life and don't be in a hurry. Exercise, eat well, sleep well, be grateful for all you already have. I wanted to be financially free, a full-time trader... and I wanted it in two years, then two more years. At the end of the day - just keep working, and working hard. It will come. The quote below resonated with me:

"If the pursuit of excellence was easy, everyone would do it. In fact, this impatience in dealing with frustration is the primary reason that most people fail to achieve their goals. Unreasonable expectations timewise, resulting in unnecessary frustration, due to a perceived feeling of failure. Achieving the extraordinary is not a linear process.

The secret is to show up, do the work, and go home. A blue-collar work ethic married to indomitable will. It is literally that simple. Nothing interferes. Nothing can sway you from your purpose. Once the decision is made, simply refuse to budge. Refuse to compromise.

And accept that quality long-term results require quality long-term focus. No emotion. No drama. No beating yourself up over small bumps in the road. Learn to enjoy and appreciate the process. This is especially important because you are going to spend far more time on the actual journey than with those all too brief moments of triumph at the end.

Certainly celebrate the moments of triumph when they occur. More importantly, learn from defeats when they happen. In fact, if you are not encountering defeat on a fairly regular basis, you are not trying hard enough.

Throw out a timeline. It will take what it takes." ~ Sommer, Tools of Titans

Best of luck.

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mzelixon View Post
Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

You need a plan. And this is where the challenge of self discipline comes in at. Having a plan reduces the stress of trading significantly. I'm a new trader as well and I had similar issues. Here's what I did...

(Note you don't need to replicate this but just get an idea. I trade the MES but use order flow of the ES)

1. I try to get a feel of the market by understanding where positions are being held and what type of traders are holding them. This is where I use Market profile. I review prior day price action and overnight price action.

2. Then I note reference areas (prior/current day's high, low, vpoc, open, close, VAH, VAL etc) I use those as my entry and exit targets. Unless it is a trend day or news driven, those levels are respected almost to the tick. It's like magic. I also use any other obvious support/resistance zones and trendlines.

3. When price visits those areas I read the tape, price ladder, and market depth map (I use Sierra chart). This tells me how traders/algos are reacting to these levels.

4. Last but not least (it's actually most lol) Market Internals. Market Internals will help me know when to exit or stay in a trade. I use TICK, advance decline line, and market breadth. This was a game changer for me and took most of the stress out of trading. I was always afraid of exiting trades too early and I would often end up holding onto losers. Market internals helped me in this area.

Bottom line is JUST REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE TRADING FOR GOOD PROBABILITIES NOT TO BE RIGHT ON EVERY TRADE. Listen to the late Mark Douglas lectures on YouTube.

If I told you to flip a coin 100 times and you will only win 40 out of 100, it may seem unfavorable. But If I told you each win will be 2-3x greater than each loss, then you are in a net positive situation. The hard part is finding a strategy that gives you those odds and THEN convincing your mind that you are trading for the next 100 trades not for the very next one. "Trade like you are the casino."

To sum it up (and yes I know it's easier said than done but at least you know what you're striving for)

1. Create a plan by getting a feel for what the market is doing and may want to do.
2. Have multiple strategies in your arsenal and pick the ones that fit your plan and risk tolerance.
3. Stick to the plan and remember you are trading for the long haul. This requires patience which you will need to work on.


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  #469 (permalink)
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Cornbeefsoup View Post
You need a plan. And this is where the challenge of self discipline comes in at. Having a plan reduces the stress of trading significantly. I'm a new trader as well and I had similar issues. Here's what I did...

(Note you don't need to replicate this but just get an idea. I trade the MES but use order flow of the ES)

1. I try to get a feel of the market by understanding where positions are being held and what type of traders are holding them. This is where I use Market profile. I review prior day price action and overnight price action.

2. Then I note reference areas (prior/current day's high, low, vpoc, open, close, VAH, VAL etc) I use those as my entry and exit targets. Unless it is a trend day or news driven, those levels are respected almost to the tick. It's like magic. I also use any other obvious support/resistance zones and trendlines.

3. When price visits those areas I read the tape, price ladder, and market depth map (I use Sierra chart). This tells me how traders/algos are reacting to these levels.

4. Last but not least (it's actually most lol) Market Internals. Market Internals will help me know when to exit or stay in a trade. I use TICK, advance decline line, and market breadth. This was a game changer for me and took most of the stress out of trading. I was always afraid of exiting trades too early and I would often end up holding onto losers. Market internals helped me in this area.

Bottom line is JUST REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE TRADING FOR GOOD PROBABILITIES NOT TO BE RIGHT ON EVERY TRADE. Listen to the late Mark Douglas lectures on YouTube.

If I told you to flip a coin 100 times and you will only win 40 out of 100, it may seem unfavorable. But If I told you each win will be 2-3x greater than each loss, then you are in a net positive situation. The hard part is finding a strategy that gives you those odds and THEN convincing your mind that you are trading for the next 100 trades not for the very next one. "Trade like you are the casino."

To sum it up (and yes I know it's easier said than done but at least you know what you're striving for)

1. Create a plan by getting a feel for what the market is doing and may want to do.
2. Have multiple strategies in your arsenal and pick the ones that fit your plan and risk tolerance.
3. Stick to the plan and remember you are trading for the long haul. This requires patience which you will need to work on.


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I appreciate the (very comprehensive) reply.
Everything you said was on point.
I've sort of taken a break from trading for the past few weeks... I think it's given me a chance to really clear my head.

"Bottom line is JUST REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE TRADING FOR GOOD PROBABILITIES NOT TO BE RIGHT ON EVERY TRADE. Listen to the late Mark Douglas lectures on YouTube"
Bingo ^

This is the mindset I have yet to fully master but Mark Douglas is certainly a good mentor when it comes to that, among others (Alexander Elder is also a favorite of mine)
So yeah. Trading is indeed a mind-maze! And I think that taking a break and being honest with my mistakes was exactly what I needed.

1. Create a plan by getting a feel for what the market is doing and may want to do.
2. Have multiple strategies in your arsenal and pick the ones that fit your plan and risk tolerance.
3. Stick to the plan and remember you are trading for the long haul. This requires patience which you will need to work on.


This is exactly what I need.
And what I will strive for the next time I'm ready to jump back in the market.
Thanks again for the reply!

- Mike

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mzelixon View Post
I appreciate the (very comprehensive) reply.
Everything you said was on point.
I've sort of taken a break from trading for the past few weeks... I think it's given me a chance to really clear my head.

"Bottom line is JUST REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE TRADING FOR GOOD PROBABILITIES NOT TO BE RIGHT ON EVERY TRADE. Listen to the late Mark Douglas lectures on YouTube"
Bingo ^

This is the mindset I have yet to fully master but Mark Douglas is certainly a good mentor when it comes to that, among others (Alexander Elder is also a favorite of mine)
So yeah. Trading is indeed a mind-maze! And I think that taking a break and being honest with my mistakes was exactly what I needed.

1. Create a plan by getting a feel for what the market is doing and may want to do.
2. Have multiple strategies in your arsenal and pick the ones that fit your plan and risk tolerance.
3. Stick to the plan and remember you are trading for the long haul. This requires patience which you will need to work on.


This is exactly what I need.
And what I will strive for the next time I'm ready to jump back in the market.
Thanks again for the reply!

- Mike

This ties in with your point 2 above:

Build a playbook. Have chart pics of the set ups which make sense to you. Internalize and remember them. Study your playbook daily. This way, you will see those trade set ups and automatically take them every time without hesitation. As long as they are consistently profitable trade set ups and you only take your playbook trades, you will see your mental aspect improve, and likely your PnL as well.

Recommended reading:
The Playbook by Mike Bellafiore
The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin
Make it Stick by Peter C Brown et al
Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
Mindset by Dr Carol Dweck
Talent is Overrated by Geoff Colvin
The Chimp Paradox by Dr Steve Peters
Atomic Habits by James Clear
There are a few others I also have read, but this is a good start.

Recommended YT channels (check their playlists for psychology related videos):
SMB Capital
Axia Futures

Recommended Twitter:
Alex Haywood
Richard Bailey
Mike Bellafiore
Brannigan Barret
Eric Thomas
James Clear

Just my 2 cents into this conversation. These are some things that have helped me.

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  #471 (permalink)
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Great Thread... Psychology in trading and life in general is so important and not discussed enough I think. Understanding it or the lack of understanding can be the difference in the success of a trader. We, our selves, are our own worst enemy! But, the beauty is, once we realize and admit that to ourselves, we can flip the switch. Though it's not easy, you can be on the right path in life, making right decisions and being on the right side of the market building discipline through small goals and execution plans...

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  #472 (permalink)
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Maelstrom View Post
,

And my two cents....

I have always, always been a firm believer in the following: one can achieve anything in life, IF they are willing to sacrifice anything for it.

Bold statement to be sure, and it does have to be grounded in reality to a certain degree. If I decide I want to fly, the chances of me figuring out how to flap my arms fast enough to get airborne are pretty much nil. But... I can certainly get a pilot's license, or go hang gliding, or any number of things to achieve my goal.

My initial answer to your question about that person above.... IF that trader is willing to burn his kids college fund, IF he is willing to hand over that 20K in courses, and IF he is willing to sacrifice his marriage and family for trading... then yes, he should be trading.

Sound ridiculous? Absolutely. But, right or wrong, in a sick sort of way you would have to appreciate someone's absolute dedication to their goal no matter what. Brings to mind the Samurai mentality - duty above all else.

The only thing that doesn't fit in all that is this - by getting married, having kids, etc, this "trader's" first duty is to his family, to the commitments he has made to them, expressed or implied, to take care of them as a husband and father. If he/she wants to be a trader first, at all costs, then she should not sacrifice anyone else's lives or futures for that.

This thread, and that post of yours Mike, struck a deep and painful cord in me. Been there, done that to a certain degree, a long time ago. Having had much success in my life in so many different areas, I knew, just KNEW, that I could succeed at trading also. After all, how hard could it be.... buy low, sell high, right? Make truckloads of money and everyone will be happy as can be.

I was humbled beyond belief, lost A LOT, and not just talking about money. And it took me a long time to admit defeat. I am infinitely regretful for my blind pride and arrogance, but, I am also thankful in a way. I fell, I got up, and I have persevered. I have learned, and although I wish I had done things differently, I can now look back and see that every little thing was a lesson, painful as it may have been.

Wow, looking over my post, certainly didn't think I was going to spill my guts about my dark trading addiction days, and hesitating to hit the submit button. But, who knows, maybe it will help someone. I know for a fact that one can be successful in this endeavor - I trade, I am profitable, and more importantly, I am comfortable with what I do.

After all that, my answer to your question is....no, this person should not be trading. BUT.... if they are that far into that type of situation, they will absolutely not listen to anyone - you, me, their family - no one. They will have to take the absolute ass kicking that they are in for, and either be better for it, or not. I sympathize with your situation and all those types of communications I know you get on a regular basis, but someone like that has an addiction, and just like any other habit, is going to have to hit rock bottom before they come back up.

I know from experience.

@Maelstrom I just read your post now (1st January 2021). I want to say that your answer is helping me to stay positive.
I understand Mike's point of view that is very rational, but it helped me to hear that someone was disagreeing with his vision.

I risked half of my lifesaving in trading and I put in jeopardy my family (though my family was just me and my wife). I feel sorry and regretful for that but I think you only have one life and you have to chase your dreams.
If I hadn't chased my dreams years ago, I wouldn't have created my company and I wouldn't have even had the money to start trading.

I believe I can make it in trading because I had several successes in my life. I know I can make it, of course rationally I cannot justify it but how many of the worthy things in life can be rationally explained?
Can you explain music, passion or love?

I will just fight and work on my project. If it doesn't work at least I tried.


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^You know what WILL help you? Start with very small goals regarding your profit targets. E.g. If you're an ES trader, try to get only one point a day and quit. Of course, manage your stops too, equally good. This way, you're risking less and gaining confidence.

Let me tell you this: A person I know stayed with making one and only one point a day on one contract (ES) for FIVE straight months (only a few stopouts throughout that stretch). Then, once he knew it was ok, he went to 2,3,5,10....50....100..... and THREE HUNDRED contracts! He opened his own LLC as retailers are capped at max one hundred contracts.

How did this happen? Well you start from one contract and then move on of course. Build confidence. Manage stops. This is a game of probabilities. Watch and learn from Mark Douglas' videos. That is it.

P.S. That trader is the only reason I am still in the game today, otherwise I would have quit a long time ago. He also reiterated and sculpted something in my mind: You can achieve anything you want in life - just try harder and look more carefully. Hope it helps. Good luck.

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lightsun47 View Post
^You know what WILL help you? Start with very small goals regarding your profit targets. E.g. If you're an ES trader, try to get only one point a day and quit. Of course, manage your stops too, equally good. This way, you're risking less and gaining confidence.

Let me tell you this: A person I know stayed with making one and only one point a day on one contract (ES) for FIVE straight months (only a few stopouts throughout that stretch). Then, once he knew it was ok, he went to 2,3,5,10....50....100..... and THREE HUNDRED contracts! He opened his own LLC as retailers are capped at max one hundred contracts.

How did this happen? Well you start from one contract and then move on of course. Build confidence. Manage stops. This is a game of probabilities. Watch and learn from Mark Douglas' videos. That is it.

P.S. That trader is the only reason I am still in the game today, otherwise I would have quit a long time ago. He also reiterated and sculpted something in my mind: You can achieve anything you want in life - just try harder and look more carefully. Hope it helps. Good luck.

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Thanks for the feedback, I must say that I thought a lot about this approach. In the past my best trading months were the ones in which I stopped trading after making a certain amount of money.
I tried this in the past but I had the following issues with this approach
1) after making a couple of good trades and reach the daily goal I didn't know what to do the rest of the day. (it seems so strange to stay disconnected from the market until the next day)
2) I feel that by being away from the market, I give up valuable learning opportunities (basically the good trades I take are based on experienced built in the past, if I stop trading only after 2/3 trades per day when will I be learning and improving?)
3) rationally it doesn't make sense to stop trading while you are in sync with the market and I would like to be able to trade throughout the day and don't feel fear of giving it all back.

I think your advice is really wise but in my mind I want to "build a style of trading" in which I can sit in front of my computer as much as I want without taking stupid trades. I know from monetary standpoint it would be wiser to walk away.
Do you think that I should focus more on "making money" rather than on trading?

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  #475 (permalink)
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What is the title of this thread?

Time to give up.

Why you think people give up? Because when you start losing, you start going down mentally as well - especially if you start losing what you cannot afford to.

I would rather make my goal for today, EVERYDAY, then quit happily knowing the market can do WHATEVER it wants to - I just hit my goal for the day. I am done for today. I will do EXACTLY the same thing tomorrow, with confidence, be done and shut off.

Regarding your monetary goals, they will start appearing by themselves once you know this secret of sustainability everyday - you just have to be consistent in what you're doing with confidence everyday. Yes, focus on your monetary goals because that's what they drag you everyday there too, but keep all these facts in mind too that all these are just random probabilities and you are just exploiting your edge for your gains everyday. Good luck.

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  #476 (permalink)
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lightsun47 View Post
What is the title of this thread?

Time to give up.

Why you think people give up? Because when you start losing, you start going down mentally as well - especially if you start losing what you cannot afford to.

I would rather make my goal for today, EVERYDAY, then quit happily knowing the market can do WHATEVER it wants to - I just hit my goal for the day. I am done for today. I will do EXACTLY the same thing tomorrow, with confidence, be done and shut off.

Regarding your monetary goals, they will start appearing by themselves once you know this secret of sustainability everyday - you just have to be consistent in what you're doing with confidence everyday. Yes, focus on your monetary goals because that's what they drag you everyday there too, but keep all these facts in mind too that all these are just random probabilities and you are just exploiting your edge for your gains everyday. Good luck.

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Thanks a lot for your feedback, I never thought about it that way but I think you are completely right: when you start losing you go down mentally and this has a big impact on the P&L.
I will try to fix some daily goal and stop once I reach them.

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SBtrader82 View Post
Thanks for the feedback, I must say that I thought a lot about this approach. In the past my best trading months were the ones in which I stopped trading after making a certain amount of money.
I tried this in the past but I had the following issues with this approach
1) after making a couple of good trades and reach the daily goal I didn't know what to do the rest of the day. (it seems so strange to stay disconnected from the market until the next day)
2) I feel that by being away from the market, I give up valuable learning opportunities (basically the good trades I take are based on experienced built in the past, if I stop trading only after 2/3 trades per day when will I be learning and improving?)
3) rationally it doesn't make sense to stop trading while you are in sync with the market and I would like to be able to trade throughout the day and don't feel fear of giving it all back.

I think your advice is really wise but in my mind I want to "build a style of trading" in which I can sit in front of my computer as much as I want without taking stupid trades. I know from monetary standpoint it would be wiser to walk away.
Do you think that I should focus more on "making money" rather than on trading?

Yes, your goal should definitely be to be able to "sit as much as you want without stupid trades".
Moving from the screen is a tool to help tackle unsolved mind issues which mess up the trading. It's a short term solution that, while very important, shouln't distract us from the real goal which is to get ourselves focused mentally while trading.

Reading your comment, and being with background in subconscious work, some subconscious limiting beliefs just scream from your text, which I hope may be beneficial for you or others with similar thoughs to be aware of.
I could of coures be mistaken as I am only basing this on your comment, not on any personal aquaintance or conversation.
But if any of this rings a bell for you, you may want to consider exploring these issues.

They are in the following areas:
- First and foremost: Need for activity. Is it possible you are seeing trading as relief from boredom, and feel discomfort/difficulty when facing boredom/"vacuum"? (very common in our activity-addicted society).
- Fear of missing out on opportunities.
- Equating "activity" with learning or progress.
- Giving much weight - to a near mystical degree - to being "in/out of synch with market" rather than to just following your rules. It's really more about being out of synch with yourself.

I Wish you good trading success.

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