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Time to Give Up


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Time to Give Up

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  #461 (permalink)
Calgary + Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 3 since Sep 2018
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TheBenefactor View Post
If it were that simple everyone would be Tom Brady.

I can give trades out every day, world class trades, like buy the break out over yesterday's high in Dow.

I like to think I am Tom Brady of Trading. Certainly have a better win rate. Sadly when I was 25 I could throw a football longer -- 73 yards, so why didnt I stay with my college football team?

Fear of success!

1 - out of 11 traders will follow trades we suggest. Even those I have proven that win most days.

Human nature.

We are programmed from birth -- DONT TOUCH THAT. EAT YOUR SPINACH BEFORE ICE CREAM. COLLEGES TEACH US TO BE GOOD EMPLYEES NOT INNOVATORS. Maybe Harvard, Yale, MIT.

Even Trump took a while before he believed he could really become president.

I suggested it to him, STRONGLY, in 1996 when his limo broke down and I drove him to the Pottstown K-Mart to shop for school supplies for Don Jr. at the Hill school.

He said, "I make more money in a day than the president. Look what happened to Ross. No one will ever elect a Billionaire--too much jealousy."

Hmmmmmm.
TB



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  #462 (permalink)
Rochester, NY USA
 
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: GC
 
Posts: 65 since Dec 2018
Thanks: 11 given, 37 received

Just wanted to add my experience to this thread. I have been trading for nearly 3 years now and I am the epitome of the beginner trader. I have been all over the place: binary options, options, futures, options, selling premium, buying premium, futures, options and now futures again. I have thrown every indicator on my chart looking for the grail. Spoiler alert - none of that shit works.

I am naturally risk adverse - I have worked in risk management in my professional life and I calculate risks in my personal life daily. However, when I started trading that all went out the window. Just to clarify, I have yet to blow up an account but the lack of risk management for me comes from having no plan, no strategy, no journal, no tracking, not doing my homework, etc. I quit my job in Aug 2018 to trade FT and had immediate success. I was up a few $K before giving it all back in late 2018. Instead of reviewing my trades and what I had been doing I changed everything, then I changed it again, and again, and again. Before I knew it I couldn't even remember what I was doing originally. Fortunately, I stopped all together instead of throwing money at the market. In early 2019 I met a guy who changed everything for me. I had never even considered the psychological component of trading until I met him. We did some personal evaluations and based on my answers to money and the market in general, he concluded I was a scalp trader. I did that for the next 7 months and had some success but the hectic nature of scalping and the 18 wins in a row, followed by a 50% win rate over my next 54 trades was way too stressful for me. Plus, it was not consistent enough to live on. I went back to work in Sept 2019 and took 2 months off of trading.

I got back to work with that guy again in mid-Nov and have adapted the way I trade. I am an accountant by trade and am use to models and forecasts and thought that a little longer term trading was better suited my personality. While my consistency and success as a trader is still to be determined I have a much more relaxed approach to the markets. I have a written plan, rules, loss limits, a strategy to follow, I review my trades and some times, I just watch the markets move and take notes with the intention of taking 0 trades. I see a therapist once a month and talk about the why's and the what's of my being; focusing on the mental side of trading has helped me with the actual trading side of trading. I do not fear putting trades on, I do not "take profits too early", I just trade the plan and learn from my mistakes. I want to make this my profession as I am enamored with everything about the markets. However, my timeline now is no timeline. I am just taking it one trade at a time until the data tells me that I am where I need to be to consider doing this FT again. That answer also relates to my personal situation and not just so much of whether I have "had 2 consecutive months of profitability equal to or greater than my current gross income". I am by no means saying I have perfected it as there are still some things about me that I have to deal with (perfectionist being one of them) but I am more self aware than before. I think being self aware is a huge hurdle for most traders and once they attain that they can then begin the trading journey.

Ultimately I believe you have to be willing to meet your true self if you truly want to make it in this business. I have the support of my wife, a stable financial base, the willingness to learn and improve. Now I just need to continue putting in the requisite amount of work to be a better performer and (hopefully) in due time I will be lucky enough to call myself a day trader.

f1p

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  #463 (permalink)
Portland, ME
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Jigsaw, TOS, Firetip
Trading: YM, MYM, stocks, options
 
Posts: 51 since Feb 2020
Thanks: 17 given, 73 received


I'm "mentoring" a guy who I believe he should just QUIT and save his money!
He's somewhat financially stable, maybe not the best shape to be actively trading, but his major hurdle is that he's JUST NOT BUILT TO BE A TRADER! He's trying hard and can't do anything at all right, but he doesn't always take advice I've given which could help him (make a journey at least for himself).

His confidence is low, in general. He's older, so less testosterone, not that it's hugely important, but when I say low confidence? I mean like almost zero. He second guesses every trade all the time and isn't decisive (gets chopped up badly).

He's afraid to trade any key levels or the open and has consistantly gotten on the wrong side now for probably 2 straight weeks. I had to tell him to get back onto Demo due to his flaws. Constantly he wants to go short, no matter what. Bias always short. He tends to talk a lot and overthink sh*t, likes to try to "predict" or forcast. I keep telling him to stop that crap. He's read zero books.

His little $5,000 account is already down to $3,400. And this is trading 1-2 micro contracts on the dow... Like how the heck does someone consistently lose that well ?!?! Granted that's not a huge sum of money, but the losing is so consistently perfect I feel like banging my head on the wall LOL.

It's not his life savings, he's going to be fine, but it's sad to see someone who's got no job and struggling to trade.
His overal attitude and expressions are kinda lame, slow, and depressed looking. Like very defeated looking, which tells me that this is 80% psychological. To pull out of a losing period you have to have some balls and confidence and be mentally ready to keep taking risk the next day.

He could trade well if he would actually listen to me though. Even though he's mostly not built to trade.
His mentality comes from growing up on a FARM. Not sure where I heard this, but obviously the risk taking approach growing up on a farm and idea of money/time is going to be the worst perspective, built in from childhood.
I've gotta literally break him apart... When you live on a farm, you have a desire for security and never knowing how much your crop will yield makes them very risk averse. Also trying to find how he can leverage that strength of his, by swing trading ETF on the long side without leverage, since these are really great levels to buy and hold anyways LOL.

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  #464 (permalink)
Tel Aviv, Israel
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Ninjatrader
Trading: ES, CL
 
Posts: 63 since Mar 2014
Thanks: 57 given, 84 received

Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

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  #465 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Bangor, Maine, U.S.
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Trading: MNQ
 
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Posts: 534 since Sep 2018
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mzelixon View Post
Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

I'm in a similar position. I've been at it for 2 years, and I haven't made a dime yet! But what keeps me around is knowing that this will probably take much longer than 2 years, and it might cost a lot more than the money I've already lost or think I'll lose. There's a reason only a few make it. I've underestimated this game over and over again, thinking I've figured it out, to only lose all my gains the next week or month (in fact, I just lost all of last weeks gains this week and a little bit more ). I think that's just part of the process and I believe that having doubt is part of it too. I think the question is, how much are you really willing to give? At what point do you think you should stop trading? Some would say 2 years and 7 grand is nothing.

What helps is being well-capitalized, having very low expectations, and especially being detached from the idea of making money any time soon. The most important thing for me is to remember to keep my head up, accept the losses and losing streaks when they come and to actually learn from them.

Just know that you're not alone and there's realistically more struggle ahead. Attitude is really important, although it's hard to have a good one all the time.. Do the best you can, genuinely.

There's nothing to think about.

- Mark Douglas
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  #466 (permalink)
Bracknell/UK
 
Platform: PRT
Broker: IG
 
belekas's Avatar
 
Posts: 17 since Nov 2017
Thanks: 244 given, 17 received

Hello dear fellow traders.


Not much of a poster but I think for newer guys and everyone in the trading business it should ring bells. Those with a few or 5 years into the game working ass off full time exploring, researching, applying, backtesting etc etc can take a deep breath and just relax. This business takes 10-20+ years to get consistently profitable and improve going forward being able to adapt to changing market regimes and volatility. It's just my own opinion from what I have gathered in my 13yrs of learning to trade. Blew a few account when started clueless then just learned the method I thought was "the one" to trade on paper for some years. But the markets changed and that edge became useless even though I continued to practice it on the daily basis for years. Met a superb intraday/swing quant trader 4 years ago and he opened my eyes. So few years ago learned to write simple code and now am able to test simple ideas or systems on the fly. Thats a huge advantage on its own being able to do that. So being in the game full time for 13 years im still work in progress but with a lot smarter mindset, tools and abilities then before. Is that enough? Hell no. Heres another puzzle. To be really good at your craft and to be able to beat the odds we have to use custom built tools to suit our needs and hopefully provide an edge in whatever stuff we are doing. Have to think outside the box and be different from the crowd, go the other unexplored ways to look for edges. Easier said then done, right. Do I know someone making a killing doing what Ive described here? Yes I do. Are there really great traders that are able to trade in every market regime and still make a killing? Yes there are, just that they don't share much of what and how they do as its taken then many years and losses and whatever sacrifices that came along the way. And there are many along the way when you are really eating, living and breathing the markets.


Learning never stops even after 13 years the fire is burning even more. It's a solo game. Don't know anyone else in the same boat around me and hope that nobody has to go through the path I went through falling in every shit hole you possible can. But then again on the flipside thats exactly how we learn as we learn from failures and not successes so before climbing to the top of the mountain be sure to blow a minimum a few accounts and get ready for a roller coaster ride of your life trying to solve worlds hardest puzzle


Best regards,
Bel.

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  #467 (permalink)
Manila, PH
 
 
Posts: 6 since Aug 2016
Thanks: 1 given, 12 received


mzelixon View Post
Gusy, let me be real with you.
While my profile says intermediate my profits DO NOT.
Or should I say, lack of profits.
So the thing is...
I've been trading for about 2 years now.
I blew $7000 over 3 accounts day trading oil (bad idea in the first place!!!) and now my latest $1k account is gone day trading the micro ES (notice how I say micro, nothing more than 1 lot)

And I don't know.
I feel like I just can't seem to get it right.
Either I don't have a profitable strategy... or I'm lacking in everything else (psychology, risk management, self discipline, emotional discipline etc.)

I've thought of giving up many times. I'm (only?) 28 will be 29 at the end of this month.

And I love trading, I really do. I want to make it my career. But I just feel like a broken record.
Everytime I tell myself "today I will behave, today I won't make stupid trades, today I won't widen my stops)
And it's like, is my mind weak?
Can it even be disciplined?

I know that my biggest issues HAVE to come from inside of my head and it's like a kink I can't seem to fix.

I don't consider myself a dumb guy. I won't brag but I would say I have a head for numbers and that my technical analysis is usually spot on.

But is day trading something that can be learned over time? I mean... maybe some people have intelligence but can't trade. Can't stomach the losses. Can't be patient.

That last one... something I need to work on.

So I just wanna know has anyone here become successful after a few first failures?
Because in my opinion, I DID NOT waste money, sweat, tears, hours of looking at charts, all for nothing.

I refuse to give up. Because I KNOW I have it in my me to make this work I just need to get into the proper mindset once and for all.

Any replies would be appreciated

Been there.

I've got a little over ten years on you age wise, and started later than you. I also watched some money disappear a few times. Each time I would get frustrated, consider quitting, go through the pain cycle, then re-focus on my development. After a few times of this I thought of quitting again... but refused.

I have found trading to be one giant puzzle with many different pieces. The method or style one uses, focused on "entries and exits" is just one piece of the whole puzzle. Personal habits & beliefes (aka - psychology) is a piece. Appetite for risk, and a balanced lifestyle is a piece. A true understanding of position sizing is a piece. Expectations, timelines, goals - another piece. The willingness to be mentored, tutored, trained by others - another piece.

The more I started to spend time on the other pieces that I avoided, or didn't truly appreciate early on, the more the puzzle started to come together. Once the puzzle starts to come together, you start to see what it looks like - and then it becomes easier and faster to locate the missing pieces and put them where they need to go.

Things that made the biggest difference for me:
-Find someone that is an expert in your field and become a student. I spent 2.5 years on my own, and the growth from a mentor made a huge difference.
-Discipline. Practice as much as you can. Find ways to make practice easier or more convenient so that you do more of it (tablets, phones, printouts, quizlet - whatever it takes)
-Read voraciously. Van Tharp, Denise Shull, Mark Douglas, Ari Kiev all helped me. Mike Bellafiore's books "One Good Trade" and "The Playbook" helped me realize the system and work ethic I needed to build.
-Balance your life and don't be in a hurry. Exercise, eat well, sleep well, be grateful for all you already have. I wanted to be financially free, a full-time trader... and I wanted it in two years, then two more years. At the end of the day - just keep working, and working hard. It will come. The quote below resonated with me:

"If the pursuit of excellence was easy, everyone would do it. In fact, this impatience in dealing with frustration is the primary reason that most people fail to achieve their goals. Unreasonable expectations timewise, resulting in unnecessary frustration, due to a perceived feeling of failure. Achieving the extraordinary is not a linear process.

The secret is to show up, do the work, and go home. A blue-collar work ethic married to indomitable will. It is literally that simple. Nothing interferes. Nothing can sway you from your purpose. Once the decision is made, simply refuse to budge. Refuse to compromise.

And accept that quality long-term results require quality long-term focus. No emotion. No drama. No beating yourself up over small bumps in the road. Learn to enjoy and appreciate the process. This is especially important because you are going to spend far more time on the actual journey than with those all too brief moments of triumph at the end.

Certainly celebrate the moments of triumph when they occur. More importantly, learn from defeats when they happen. In fact, if you are not encountering defeat on a fairly regular basis, you are not trying hard enough.

Throw out a timeline. It will take what it takes." ~ Sommer, Tools of Titans

Best of luck.

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