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Time to Give Up
Started:March 27th, 2013 (04:47 PM) by Big Mike Views / Replies:55,903 / 414
Last Reply:October 21st, 2016 (12:21 AM) Attachments:3

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Time to Give Up

Old October 15th, 2016, 02:31 PM   #401 (permalink)
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Pariah Carey View Post
I agree. While trading is hard, after five years if you're not making forward progress (i.e. making money and building your account) then you just don't have what it takes and deep down maybe you just don't want to. Think of Seykota's famous remark "Everyone gets what they want out of the markets." Even the losers, for what they want is not to make money but they want the thrill or pity from others. Some people actually like to brag about how much they lost. Makes for a good story over drinks.

I disagree. People can change IF they want it bad enough.

I know this because I have achieved profitability (and got funded with TST) after nearly 10 years of struggle. If you want it badly enough, there is NEVER a time to give up but you must adapt to the circumstances around you to keep your dream/goal alive.

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Old October 15th, 2016, 08:07 PM   #402 (permalink)
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Thoughts

As traders we generally start this alone, seek out information/coaching as needed and spend most of our time alone. Basically you are in the pro league from day one, or for a boxing reference, in the ring with Mike Tyson or some other champ straight away. Failure comes often, and when new traders watch videos and gather information on how to improve, many of those 'solutions' wont fit our personal style or our own shortcomings won't allow us to profit from them. I can remember watching videos of ppl scalping 10-20 lots on ES and when you try that as a newb right out of the box, you will get spun and whipsawed and demoralised most often.

The key in this game is that there are many different ways to be a profitable trader, some are easier than others, and to recognise that we all have failings/shortcomings as a trader, and to find a method that suits you. If you are an anxious trader, have a hard time when positions go quickly against you, maybe futures are not the product for you. Or, maybe you need to trade something smaller, micros, or maybe something like the 10yr note that doesn't whiplash so often.

I know people that couldn't trade ES to save their lives but they are profitable day trading leveraged ETFs with the same underlying. Or swing trading options, or selling options premium, or trading volatility.

For me, my most profitable and consistent trading is trading VIX futures to the short side, I do this almost every day, and on a pullback on ES instead of going long ES often I will short VX, it's a large tick value contract but once you understand implied volatility thoroughly, it becomes quite predictable. I also scalp ES options instead of trading ES outright many days, when ES is whipsawing and stopping people out all the time, the calls(or puts) generally move very little, until a bigger move comes. You can scalp these on a DOM on many platforms, and its one of my go-to methods.

I guess my point is, with little exposure to other methods, and trading alone generally I worry that many traders just beat their head against the wall trying to trade the way they have seen on videos and in books, and those methods I have found, for me, don't necessarily work very well. Be brutally honest with yourself about who you are, your failings, your risk avoidance/tolerance, and what you really understand about markets, be your own trader and not someone else, and I think you are already halfway there.

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Old October 15th, 2016, 08:11 PM   #403 (permalink)
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^^^^

Very thoughtful post right there. True regarding finding your style and what suits your personality.


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Old October 15th, 2016, 09:11 PM   #404 (permalink)
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Market Monkey View Post
I disagree. People can change IF they want it bad enough.

I know this because I have achieved profitability (and got funded with TST) after nearly 10 years of struggle. If you want it badly enough, there is NEVER a time to give up but you must adapt to the circumstances around you to keep your dream/goal alive.

Anything worthwhile in your life is going to take five years. That's almost axiomatic.

A lot of times it can take ten years. Or longer. How long does it take to become a neurosurgeon?

Is it worth investing ten years of constant effort and struggle in?

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Old October 15th, 2016, 09:15 PM   #405 (permalink)
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suko View Post
Anything worthwhile in your life is going to take five years. That's almost axiomatic.



A lot of times it can take ten years. Or longer. How long does it take to become a neurosurgeon?



Is it worth investing ten years of constant effort and struggle in?


Many people do not have the skill to be a neurosurgeon. Same with trading


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Old October 15th, 2016, 09:18 PM   #406 (permalink)
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Japhro View Post
The key in this game is that there are many different ways to be a profitable trader, some are easier than others...

I know people that couldn't trade ES to save their lives but they are profitable day trading leveraged ETFs with the same underlying. Or swing trading options, or selling options premium, or trading volatility.

For me, my most profitable and consistent trading is trading VIX futures to the short side

Or selling long dated puts on SVXY, a year or more out.

This post is very right on.

Lots of different kinds of trading.

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Old October 15th, 2016, 10:25 PM   #407 (permalink)
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spideysteve View Post
Many people do not have the skill to be a neurosurgeon. Same with trading

I have to agree.

Its important to separate a hobby/retirement activity from a professional job that pays all the bills including re-payment of the time used to learn. Of course we seek profitable niches however some cannot or more likely will eventually find something nice and turn their noses up at it for reward vs effort or other reason.

If your have a modest salary of say $80k, seems ok does it not? How long does it take to recoup the time to learn and where does that money put you relative to your top echelon brained competition?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html?ref=your-money&_r=1&

Hobby and retired traders should not be lumped in with retail pro traders who are aiming to build serious trading capital in addition to paying the bills. Its a different ballgame.

As an alternative to bingo its great (really will keep your mind fresh) but as a sole income, its a job for performers.

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Old October 16th, 2016, 12:42 PM   #408 (permalink)
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Japhro View Post

I guess my point is, with little exposure to other methods, and trading alone generally I worry that many traders just beat their head against the wall trying to trade the way they have seen on videos and in books, and those methods I have found, for me, don't necessarily work very well. Be brutally honest with yourself about who you are, your failings, your risk avoidance/tolerance, and what you really understand about markets, be your own trader and not someone else, and I think you are already halfway there.

Such a great point- don't succumb to the sunk cost effect!!

I spent 8 + years trading a method taught to me by a "trader/educator" with not much success. I realised years ago that I probably should give a good shot at another method (and I did sporadically, but they were other people's methods that I could never get my head around). The few grand spent on mentorship, plus the time invested, made it seem impossible to abandon it...

....then I said, "F*** it!" came up with a simple, logical method in less than a day and haven't looked back since!!

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Old October 16th, 2016, 08:39 PM   #409 (permalink)
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Rory View Post
Just writing this to organise my thoughts mostly, really tired.

So I know this guy from the States, around 40 so as mature as he needs to be. He SUCKS at trading, has been trying to trade for over 5 years and just never learns. Spends $erious money on books, TST combines (done his MES for the year too) and actually the two schools were not scammers.
Well I've written down the problem.. thats step 1

You have to avoid the most heavily advertised junk out there.

For example there is a guy out there who REVIEWS 1100 rooms.

He stays in each one for 3 months. Everything from George Washington is covered (over 200 years of internet research).

They then "recommend for a fee" the very best traders.

Here is one at the top of his list:

CFTC Charges Jody Dupont of South Carolina and His Company, Open Range Trading LLC, with Commodity Trading Advisor Fraud

Stick with proven winners and take the time to LEARN THIS PROFESSION.

Only a very few people out there actually advise LEARNING TO TRADE BEFORE you plunk down your own risk capital.

You need months if not years of education and then practice.

Why is this Profession any different from Law, Medicine and Engineering?

TB

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Old October 16th, 2016, 10:36 PM   #410 (permalink)
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TheBenefactor View Post
You have to avoid the most heavily advertised junk out there.

For example there is a guy out there who REVIEWS 1100 rooms.

He stays in each one for 3 months. Everything from George Washington is covered (over 200 years of internet research).

They then "recommend for a fee" the very best traders.

Here is one at the top of his list:

CFTC Charges Jody Dupont of South Carolina and His Company, Open Range Trading LLC, with Commodity Trading Advisor Fraud

Stick with proven winners and take the time to LEARN THIS PROFESSION.

Only a very few people out there actually advise LEARNING TO TRADE BEFORE you plunk down your own risk capital.

You need months if not years of education and then practice.

Why is this Profession any different from Law, Medicine and Engineering?

TB

You must be talking about Hanley, he is so obviously a fake, registered with DomainsByProxy.com etc. I recall. Though it is difficult to imagine anyone falling for his nonsense there will always be a percentage who are not so sharp. Hopefully the CFTC will have a look at him (they are the Watchman but they need to have complaints raised to act). They seem to be getting aggressive lately.

You might consider Elite membership, you would be surprised at what goes on. The things you mention are discussed all the time with beginners.


Last edited by Rory; October 16th, 2016 at 11:03 PM.
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