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Time to Give Up
Started:March 27th, 2013 (04:47 PM) by Big Mike Views / Replies:56,657 / 429
Last Reply:December 6th, 2016 (10:27 PM) Attachments:4

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Time to Give Up

Old July 15th, 2016, 02:57 PM   #361 (permalink)
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bobwest View Post
And grit certainly is good. ...

I also have to say that the serious and heavy betting on the market going his way sounds great when it was working, but it did not serve him well in the end.

In Livermore's case, was it true grit? Or just sheer stubbornness with the occasional bit of dumb luck thrown in?


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Old July 15th, 2016, 05:57 PM   #362 (permalink)
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Bladesmith View Post
In Livermore's case, was it true grit? Or just sheer stubbornness with the occasional bit of dumb luck thrown in?


Hey, I remember this metaphor from something an Indian guru wrote back in the God-knows-when past...

It goes like this...

Two frogs fell into a bucket of milk (or cream). They both kept paddling and paddling to try to escape the bucket. The first frog eventually said "It's no use", gave up paddling and sank into the milk and drowned. But the second frog had a very stern dedication, to not give up trying. Eventually, right at the end of his rope, his constant paddling of the milk had churned the milk into butter, where he was able to find solid purchase and hop his way to freedom, out of the bucket.

There have been times I have felt like that first frog, but I am holding onto the idea of being the second frog.

Is that stubbornness, or true grit? Not sure. Couldn't it be a bit of both?

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Old July 15th, 2016, 07:00 PM   #363 (permalink)
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bobwest View Post
It is understandable that you don't like this message, but it is not reasonable to just reject it. It comes from real experience. The best advice is to pay it some attention.

Bob, I really appreciate it. But, I find that both me and you are talking to the wall.
I have ZERO intention of justifying my position for being honest, and trying to help the right way. I earn my living from other's taking risks, and I never forget it. So I want to stir people in the right direction as much as I can.
If they choose to come back with motivational nonsense of "I will never give up" and base their trading on "intuition", they can go for it. We tried.

I wish you an awesome weekend and thank you for always trying to make peace in the house. I will hope you become a moderator one day. You deserve it!

Have a good weekend.

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Old July 15th, 2016, 07:58 PM   #364 (permalink)
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mattz View Post
I will hope you become a moderator one day. You deserve it!

Have a good weekend.

Thank you. However, I am not crazy.

Have a good weekend, too.

Bob.

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Old July 15th, 2016, 08:28 PM   #365 (permalink)
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bobwest View Post
Thank you. However, I am not crazy.

Have a good weekend, too.

Bob.

You are not. But you have a good spirit even if you put people in their place.

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Old July 16th, 2016, 12:02 AM   #366 (permalink)
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Bladesmith View Post
Thanks mattz. I'm just curious if there might be certain personality traits or good habits that allow some traders to more readily identify and adapt to change than others. I shared a story earlier (post #329) about a trader who, after years of success, somehow lost his edge and ultimately chose to retire. Floor traders transitioning to electronic trading provide another interesting case study: why were some successful, while others failed?

I'm not looking for answers, per se, as every trader is unique and must ultimately answer these questions for himself. That said, it might be instructive to learn from the experiences and observations of others.

Thanks again to all who have contributed to this discussion.

You are most welcome and thank you for your question. I would have to admit that this is one of the better questions I was asked, and also well challenging. I appreciate the fact that you recognize that there is no right answer, and everyone would answer according to their experience and opinion. Also, I do not want to pass judgement on those who have walked away from trading after trading for many years because there is a time and place for everything in our lives.

As far as traits, I would say traders who are open minded and have strong observational skills will most likely to exceed those who have a belief system about trading that is engraved in stone as far as risk and reward. Markets go through different volatility, ranges and structure that traders need be observant of. However, each period may be of a certain time period, some may be of weeks and some maybe of years. Therefore, the challenge that you face, is when to tweak and when to suffer through a drawdown. The drawdowns are the hardest part that any trader faces psychologically because at that point you do not know whether your system is broken or you just have to wait for the markets to come back to their natural state of your system. The key is to know your system well ahead of trading: its advantages, strengths and during what times it would suffer.

I do not think that good systems "break", but rather they may go through though periods that have not shown in historical testing. Good traders know how to tweak certain technicals based on some element, ATR for example.

I am going to tell you something that some may not believe but I have seen systems/methods that have bad elements, yet produce positive results for years. I have seen systems with "bad" risk/reward, systems that use way too much leverage, systems that are very complex with many components, yet produce results for many years. Eventually, these systems fail and capital blows out. So not everyone that walks away is someone who lost its edge, it could be someone who did not have it well from day one. Remember the NASDAQ bubble? everyone thought that they are a trader.

It is important to have the classical elements of leverage, risk/reward and simple method from day one. You can trade with fewer contracts and potentially be successful without over leveraging yourself. This may also give you time to pause and think through more challenging periods.

I hope this puts you in the right direction.

Thanks,
Matt Z
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Last edited by mattz; July 16th, 2016 at 11:53 AM.
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Old July 16th, 2016, 12:47 AM   #367 (permalink)
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Time to Give Up


paps View Post
Hey Bob..agree. SIM will be SIM unless someone trades of SIM exact the same way they do in live. Else SIM is a waste of time and has ZERO value.



Trading is a personal thing..... good traders will never boast that too on a public forum. The one's who do...congrats!!. A truly successful trader is actually devoid of emotion and may not find it necessary to express it on meaningless counter productive arguments. Anyways one's personal account balance will be worthy if one is good.... it makes zero sense to go announce one's bank balance to the world. Lol...with good friends or buddies one may share a thing here or there about markets & how they read markets...but i dont think it will ever be from a boasting standpoint. As the more cocky one gets the next slap can land on his face. Does not go to say that successful traders do not have ego...they do but it's to use it to their advantage.



anyways good that some share their good and bads of trading. Salute that. But there are many Amazing traders who are silent spectators and especially since they do not feel the need to justify or get into endless squabbles about proving their stuff..& why should they as it is not necessary ......i know for a certainty as i have one such individual as a mentor who taught me trading101. One of the most brilliant the world has seen imho. so good traders will not share & have no reason to do so. If they do it is only for pay back in some form.....nothing more...nothing less. And they will not do it for the sake of money for sure or expensive education.



i know for certain with hard work and application.... & like everything in life a lil bit of luck or the contact with the correct person.... anything is achievable......it's a limitless world



anyways cheers and gl to all. may all seek their objectives



Sorry my brother but I can't agree with the above highlighted. The market is nothing more than people interacting with each other. People have emotions, always will always have. It simply part of the human experience.



A more accurate take or statement would be IMHO being able to control and use ones emotions to their advantage in a trading business. This is very different from be devoid of emotions, which is completely 100% impossible. That being said one might have, shall I say an extreme case as an example to make a point clear, the "wrong" or inappropriate emotions, but there still emotions, like in the case of (remember extreme example) a sociopath.



My point is we all have emotions. I understand, it's the level of maturity and training we bring to our trading business in handling emotions that separates traders.



There are many excellent references available to the trading community regarding emotions and the intuitive process. Being clear, intuition is not some mumbo jumbo concept it's using your entire life's experiences with emotions as well as nonverbal insights to make decisions.



For example I think it was Denise Shull that said you aren't going to have intuition on something your not very familiar with. And goes on to tell of a firefighter's intuition she learned about where he could sense the building on fire was going to collapse because he could feel his feet getting very hot and ordered his subordinates to evacuate. Just before it caved in.



Similar intuition happens in a trading business.



Ron

Edit: grammar

Doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will. Perfect: the enemy of Done. per·fec·tion·ist: ultimately one lacking self-confidence

Quoting 
The steed of this Valley is patience; without patience the wayfarer on this journey will reach nowhere and attain no goal.

Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)

Last edited by Blash; July 16th, 2016 at 01:20 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old July 16th, 2016, 02:19 AM   #368 (permalink)
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Blash View Post
Sorry my brother but I can't agree with the above highlighted. The market is nothing more than people interacting with each other. People have emotions, always will always have. It simply part of the human experience.



A more accurate take or statement would be IMHO being able to control and use ones emotions to their advantage in a trading business. This is very different from be devoid of emotions, which is completely 100% impossible. That being said one might have, shall I say an extreme case as an example to make a point clear, the "wrong" or inappropriate emotions, but there still emotions, like in the case of (remember extreme example) a sociopath.



My point is we all have emotions. I understand, it's the level of maturity and training we bring to our trading business in handling emotions that separates traders.



There are many excellent references available to the trading community regarding emotions and the intuitive process. Being clear, intuition is not some mumbo jumbo concept it's using your entire life's experiences with emotions as well as nonverbal insights to make decisions.



For example I think it was Denise Shull that said you aren't going to have intuition on something your not very familiar with. And goes on to tell of a firefighter's intuition she learned about where he could sense the building on fire was going to collapse because he could feel his feet getting very hot and ordered his subordinates to evacuate. Just before it caved in.



Similar intuition happens in a trading business.



Ron

Edit: grammar

Yupp that's the beauty of the market. Everyone has their own style. For me what works well is am not under any influence of emotion and trade based on signals on my screen.

Chčers...

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Old July 16th, 2016, 04:59 AM   #369 (permalink)
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@Blash "A truly successful trader is actually devoid of emotion and may not find it necessary to express it on meaningless counter productive arguments"...what i also meant is this statement was in public forums.....there are at times too much noise lol like in the markets.

who has the freakin time to get into senseless arguments ...... hence many successful traders find it a complete waste of time to contribute to the threads as people do not listen. There is anyways quite a bit of good threads on Fio if someone really is interested in knowing how a market may function and they not looking for the grail indicator.

and its not like all newbies are posting from trying to get educated on markets ...as most come with pre-conceived ideas or thinking themselves as the next hot rod.

anyways thats all i meant....am keeping myself to a minimum here. Lol...u can take the horse to the water...cant make it drink

wish all make it....

cheers

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Old July 16th, 2016, 06:43 AM   #370 (permalink)
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Sheesh, thanks for the support there. As a "real" trader, I like to think that brokers would not think of motivation as "nonsense".

"We tried"? Who is the royal "we" you speak of?

Alas, I suppose you are not the type of person I initially thought you to be. As you said, in so many words... you make money on people, whether they win or lose. Win-win for you, regardless of the outcome of your clients' results. That seems so wrong when you say in the same breath, "So I want to stir people in the right direction as much as I can."

What IS the right direction? Please enlighten on this front.

Because it is a statement like "If they choose to come back with motivational nonsense" from an actual broker that dissuades us, the wee people, the lowly shits on the totem pole, that cause us to not want to trade. Thanks a bunch. GREAT way to gather new business for your company...Make people afraid of trading, so they never want to go live, to make you money.

Just so that you're aware, I have reported this post as 'Antagonizing, dismissive and patronizing'.

I decided to do so because this is not the first post from you that fits the description IMO. Several users have pointed this out to you in the past but you have not appeared to take stock of that.

I would also add: such style of posting is certainly common in other forums on the Internet, trading and non-trading alike, but it is a far cry from this environment where users genuinely are respectul of each other, even when they disagree with each other.

I for one do not want the culture of this forum to degrade. I would encourage others to do the same.

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