Time to Give Up - Psychology and Money Management | futures io social trading
futures io futures trading


Time to Give Up
Updated: Views / Replies:62,586 / 431
Created: by Big Mike Attachments:4

Welcome to futures io.

Welcome, Guest!

This forum was established to help traders (especially futures traders) by openly sharing indicators, strategies, methods, trading journals and discussing the psychology of trading.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading forums:
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive on our forums.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendor advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in openness and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, it is not something tangible you can download.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.


You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community. It's free and simple, and we will never resell your private information.

-- Big Mike

Reply
 4  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Time to Give Up

  #351 (permalink)
Membership Temporarily Revoked
Boston, MA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT7
Favorite Futures: CL, RB, LE
 
Posts: 264 since Apr 2014
Thanks: 102 given, 173 received

By the way mattz, the white-gloved slap thing was kind of a joke. Do you not know of the white-glove slap thingy? It's funny in a way. *slap slap*

Reply With Quote
 
  #352 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Kyoto, Japan
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: LiveVol
Broker/Data: TD, TW, IB, Saxo
Favorite Futures: UVXY, VXX, VIX, /VX
 
suko's Avatar
 
Posts: 878 since Oct 2013
Thanks: 641 given, 637 received

Trade small.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to suko for this post:
 
  #353 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Sarasota FL
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, Sierra Chart
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 3,604 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 26,371 given, 10,992 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary



HoopyTrading View Post
Hey, at least I am trying to play a hand, and am putting in effort. If you have real LIVE results to show, than please share them with the rest of us.

FYI, @Pariah Carey has been sharing his live results for well over a year, in good times and bad, in his journal https://futures.io/elite-trading-journals/31642-program.html. I realize that this journal is in the Elite section and is not available to casual readers of this forum, but one should not make assumptions about things you don't know about.


HoopyTrading View Post
By the way guys, I am not joking about my sheet. I am about to do this live. No fucking lie. (pardon my French Mr. Big Mike.) I am sick and tired of sim, and I need to get busy. I just need to get the hell out of this long-term GC short trade, do some analysis, and make it so next month. August, the month I lost my shit a year ago. Frak! I do not mean to be superstitious, but for frak's sake, I need to get over this hump.

I can FEEL it.

That is great. So go ahead and do it. Until you do, live is live, and SIM is SIM. There is nothing at all wrong with SIM, but it is practice. It is not trading.


mattz View Post
Don't be mad at those who who have skin in the game and being truthful and honest. Sim is sim...it's nothing to do with reality regadeless of the effort. We get the idea that you need to start somewhere.

Guys who are honest chllange you, and those who you "dislike" may be your role models one day.
Can you name the nice teachers in your high school? LOL i did not think so.

It is understandable that you don't like this message, but it is not reasonable to just reject it. It comes from real experience. The best advice is to pay it some attention.

A last point: this thread was started by @Big Mike to give a place for those who realize that they may need to give up the dream of trading to say so. This is a brave and honest statement, when it is the truth. There is no point for others to come in to say how great they are. It has a different purpose.

If you succeed, everyone will applaud and support you. If you have difficulty, you will still get the support, from all those who have been there and have struggled too. But tone down the boasting about how great you will be, once you go live. Even once you have become a great success, it would not ever be appropriate, and certainly not here.

Bob.


Last edited by bobwest; July 14th, 2016 at 11:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users say Thank You to bobwest for this post:
 
  #354 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Kyoto, Japan
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: LiveVol
Broker/Data: TD, TW, IB, Saxo
Favorite Futures: UVXY, VXX, VIX, /VX
 
suko's Avatar
 
Posts: 878 since Oct 2013
Thanks: 641 given, 637 received


bobwest View Post

A last point: this thread was started by @Big Mike to give a place for those who realize that they may need to give up the dream of trading to say so.

Bob.

Let's back this up to the Livermore story.

There are a lot of positive examples and negative examples from the book.

On the negative side, he traded too big from the very first day.

On the positive side, he faced a lot of obstacles from the beginning. He actually got banned from trading and had to go to another town. Then he blew up his account and had to take as step back and go out of town.

Obstinate refusal to be give up in the face of spectacular failure after failure all the way to the end of his career.

Grit.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to suko for this post:
 
  #355 (permalink)
 R.I.P. 1969-2016 
montreal quebec/canada
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG/NT7
Broker/Data: IB/AMP/CQG
Favorite Futures: CL
 
Okina's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,149 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 758 given, 5,389 received


suko View Post
Let's back this up to the Livermore story.

There are a lot of positive examples and negative examples from the book.

On the negative side, he traded too big from the very first day.

On the positive side, he faced a lot of obstacles from the beginning. He actually got banned from trading and had to go to another town. Then he blew up his account and had to take as step back and go out of town.

Obstinate refusal to be give up in the face of spectacular failure after failure all the way to the end of his career.

Grit.

The big lesson is IMO how he ended....suicide.

He was making and losing and making and losing millions and 1930"s millions could be translated in hundreds of millions of today.

He was not a trader but a gambler and his addiction was not winning but losing. I partially read the book but it made me sad for him and I stopped reading it.

Nothing positive in this story except a good lesson maybe.

R.I.P. Olivier Terrier (aka "Okina"), 1969-2016.
Please visit this thread for more information.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to Okina for this post:
 
  #356 (permalink)
Elite Member
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: Tradestation, Ninja
Favorite Futures: ES & Equities
 
paps's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,371 since Oct 2011
Thanks: 1,801 given, 1,071 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


bobwest View Post
FYI, @Pariah Carey has been sharing his live results for well over a year, in good times and bad, in his journal https://futures.io/elite-trading-journals/31642-program.html. I realize that this journal is in the Elite section and is not available to casual readers of this forum, but one should not make assumptions about things you don't know about.



That is great. So go ahead and do it. Until you do, live is live, and SIM is SIM. There is nothing at all wrong with SIM, but it is practice. It is not trading.



It is understandable that you don't like this message, but it is not reasonable to just reject it. It comes from real experience. The best advice is to pay it some attention.

A last point: this thread was started by @Big Mike to give a place for those who realize that they may need to give up the dream of trading to say so. This is a brave and honest statement, when it is the truth. There is no point for others to come in to say how great they are. It has a different purpose.

If you succeed, everyone will applaud and support you. If you have difficulty, you will still get the support, from all those who have been there and have struggled too. But tone down the boasting about how great you will be, once you go live. Even once you have become a great success, it would not ever be appropriate, and certainly not here.

Bob.

Hey Bob..agree. SIM will be SIM unless someone trades of SIM exact the same way they do in live. Else SIM is a waste of time and has ZERO value.

Trading is a personal thing..... good traders will never boast that too on a public forum. The one's who do...congrats!!. A truly successful trader is actually devoid of emotion and may not find it necessary to express it on meaningless counter productive arguments. Anyways one's personal account balance will be worthy if one is good.... it makes zero sense to go announce one's bank balance to the world. Lol...with good friends or buddies one may share a thing here or there about markets & how they read markets...but i dont think it will ever be from a boasting standpoint. As the more cocky one gets the next slap can land on his face. Does not go to say that successful traders do not have ego...they do but it's to use it to their advantage.

anyways good that some share their good and bads of trading. Salute that. But there are many Amazing traders who are silent spectators and especially since they do not feel the need to justify or get into endless squabbles about proving their stuff..& why should they as it is not necessary ......i know for a certainty as i have one such individual as a mentor who taught me trading101. One of the most brilliant the world has seen imho. so good traders will not share & have no reason to do so. If they do it is only for pay back in some form.....nothing more...nothing less. And they will not do it for the sake of money for sure or expensive education.

i know for certain with hard work and application.... & like everything in life a lil bit of luck or the contact with the correct person.... anything is achievable......it's a limitless world

anyways cheers and gl to all. may all seek their objectives

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to paps for this post:
 
  #357 (permalink)
Swings a big hammer
in the Bavarian Alps
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker/Data: Interactive Brokers
Favorite Futures: YM, GC, GBL, CL
 
Bladesmith's Avatar
 
Posts: 310 since Jul 2016
Thanks: 606 given, 1,085 received


mattz View Post
interesting how you all have these romantic ideas of trading because of Jesse Livermore...no stops, no charts, develop the the sixth sense for the markers....

The book ain't gospel, but it sure is an interesting read

@mattz - would love to hear your take on my question earlier about once successful traders who lose their edge. Given where you sit, I'd guess you've seen it happen

Reply With Quote
 
  #358 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,907 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,813 given, 2,573 received


Bladesmith View Post
The book ain't gospel, but it sure is an interesting read

@mattz - would love to hear your take on my question earlier about once successful traders who lose their edge. Given where you sit, I'd guess you've seen it happen

Could you please be very specific about what you need to know about traders losing their edge(?)
Would be more than happy to answer.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to mattz for this post:
 
  #359 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Sarasota FL
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, Sierra Chart
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 3,604 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 26,371 given, 10,992 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


suko View Post
Let's back this up to the Livermore story.

There are a lot of positive examples and negative examples from the book.

On the negative side, he traded too big from the very first day.

On the positive side, he faced a lot of obstacles from the beginning. He actually got banned from trading and had to go to another town. Then he blew up his account and had to take as step back and go out of town.

Obstinate refusal to be give up in the face of spectacular failure after failure all the way to the end of his career.

Grit.


Okina View Post
The big lesson is IMO how he ended....suicide.

He was making and losing and making and losing millions and 1930"s millions could be translated in hundreds of millions of today.

He was not a trader but a gambler and his addiction was not winning but losing. I partially read the book but it made me sad for him and I stopped reading it.

Nothing positive in this story except a good lesson maybe.

For whatever it's worth, I did like the book. And grit certainly is good.

We have to realize that it was a fictionalized account, written by Lefevre, a journalist at the time (it is sometimes said to be an autobiography under a pen name, but it was not ), originally as a series of 12 articles in The Saturday Evening Post. This was a time when Livermore was a celebrity, and it does paint him in a very good light. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Lef%C3%A8vre )

Can we say whether he was a good or a bad trader? Who knows, really. He went up and down, and the market changed on him, as it does. It appears he did not adapt to that, which does not detract from his accomplishments, but it is also part of the real story.

He did not actually die broke; he was no longer successful in the market, and had lost the huge sums he once had, and gone into bankruptcy. But he had stashed away a significant amount of money in trusts. He also may have had clinical depression, which may have been a factor in his suicide. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Lauriston_Livermore#Suicide )

In the end, I agree more with @mattz about the romanticizing of Livermore. The book is inspiring, which is fine, but it is not a blueprint for success, nor was his career, overall. I also have to say that the serious and heavy betting on the market going his way sounds great when it was working, but it did not serve him well in the end. So think @Okina has said it well overall.

Just my thoughts; I don't want to detract from anyone's hero, but this is all part of the real picture, in its good and bad parts.

Bob.

Reply With Quote
The following 7 users say Thank You to bobwest for this post:
 
  #360 (permalink)
Swings a big hammer
in the Bavarian Alps
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker/Data: Interactive Brokers
Favorite Futures: YM, GC, GBL, CL
 
Bladesmith's Avatar
 
Posts: 310 since Jul 2016
Thanks: 606 given, 1,085 received



mattz View Post
Could you please be very specific about what you need to know about traders losing their edge(?)
Would be more than happy to answer.

Thanks mattz. I'm just curious if there might be certain personality traits or good habits that allow some traders to more readily identify and adapt to change than others. I shared a story earlier (post #329) about a trader who, after years of success, somehow lost his edge and ultimately chose to retire. Floor traders transitioning to electronic trading provide another interesting case study: why were some successful, while others failed?

I'm not looking for answers, per se, as every trader is unique and must ultimately answer these questions for himself. That said, it might be instructive to learn from the experiences and observations of others.

Thanks again to all who have contributed to this discussion.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Bladesmith for this post:

Reply



futures io > > > Time to Give Up

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

FIO Journal Challenge featuring NinjaTrader ($2,000+ of prizes)

May

An overview of volumetric analytical tools w/Sergey Sokolov @ PTMC

Elite only

John Hoagland (TBA)

Elite only

FuturesTrader71 Extended Ask Me Anything (AMA)

Elite only

Pete @ Jigsaw Trading (TBA)

Elite only

John @ No BS Day Trading (TBA)

Elite only

An Afternoon with FIO member Softsoap (being rescheduled)

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Give this a listen RJay Psychology and Money Management 3 March 12th, 2016 10:54 AM
Will Bernanke Give the Market What It Wants? Quick Summary News and Current Events 3 January 23rd, 2014 11:37 PM
Will the Election Give the Market What It Wants? Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 November 3rd, 2012 12:50 AM
I give MC yet another chance... but nothing's different this time around. josh MultiCharts 8 September 4th, 2012 03:51 AM
Morgan Stanley CEO: Give Facebook a 'Little Bit of Time' Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 May 31st, 2012 06:20 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:35 PM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-05-29 in 0.17 seconds with 20 queries on phoenix via your IP 23.20.157.174