As I was writing that I remembered that I had many issues that were not suited for trading when I started.
So I guess that doesn't warrant a person giving up because they can change, or at least some can if they really want to. You're right about finding out who you are when it comes to trading. Trading has made me a better person in many aspects of my life. Discipline and patience are two qualities I didn't necessarily have a grasp on before my trading career.
The following 21 users say Thank You to Massive l for this post:
Site Administrator Swing Trader Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Broker: Collect them all
Trading: Equities, Futures & Crypto
Posts: 50,286 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,819 given,
100,134
received
Agree completely and I found similar traits in myself that needed significant improvement to be a good trader. The skills I learned to be a good trader have changed who I am as a person, for the better.
I turned a Sizable Account into a sizable Debt selling Naked Puts prior to Sept 11, 2001.
I was shell shocked at the -275K Margin Call week and a half later; it took the 4 previous years + to build that precious account....... and then nothing but a silent black hole.
That was pretty much rock bottom, with an obligation that I wanted to run from but I couldn't...All that "success"
and the professional relationships I built, the Trust, the Pride....Just turned vacant. But I wanted it back like that smeagol and his prrrecious.
I borrowed 325K, paid the call, and spent the next 4+ months scalping futures and currencies like a smeagol... then hit rock bottom again, emotionally, and physically strung out like guttered junkie. It was over...Out...Scratch
Still -75K net I slithered away, couldn't push the buttons no more, it had become an unreal reality.
The next day I went back to rebuilding my life; it took the next 4 years to clear the last 75K, the old fashioned way, every day making less than a scalp, and losing a hell of a lot more sweat.
What did I have to lose....Everything...Bottom Out and Upside Down
What did I gain? what I lacked the most........ PERSPECTIVE.... I had to "SEE thru" the Damn BS that I was either ignoring or worse deluding myself with.
The following 63 users say Thank You to peterg for this post:
I just want to share my view that your points all boil down to a simpler (and equivalent) fact: you aren't ready to accept or manage market risk when your principal sources of risk are going to be outside of it. This may be hard to understand, so I will explain in simpler words:
If you look at it the way I described, given an average person's risk appetite...
- The damages incurred if you cannot afford your kid's education is greater than the damages incurred if you lose 50% of your trading capital.
- The damages incurred if you lose a significant amount of trust with your wife and kids is greater than the damages incurred if you lose 50% of your trading capital.
So then, your main sources of risk already come outside of trading (although it might not be obvious to the naked eye). It makes no sense to manage and accept additional risk from the market when you have not dealt with your main sources of risk. This is bad enough. It is worse to keep risky positions in both (wife's trust and trading) and make them 100% correlated.
In fact, many retail traders are less prepared than they imagine. When some of my friends tell me that they are starting out with trading their own money, and come to me for advice, it's often not appropriate that I ask them what they think of their relationships with their wives and children. Instead, I ask them for their retirement plans. Most that I've encountered have a greater source of risk in their retirement plans than their trading activities.
The following 11 users say Thank You to artemiso for this post:
Mike, this forum's contribution to my development as a trader has been incalculable.
I did not mean to come across as harsh or negative in any way, I simply am trying to point out to struggling traders that trading is not a big kumbaya campfire, there are thousands of professional traders that are more prepared, better capitalized, and better suited to trading that are gunning to take your money each and every day. If a struggling trader isn't ready to accept the fact that they are struggling and need to seek help or training, they will get eaten alive.
Sim trading until PROVEN SUCCESS is such an invaluable tool to struggling traders. Why risk your money when learning how to trade? Granted, a sim trader will have no idea about the psychological issues related to real money being on the line with a trade, but sim trading can help a new or struggling trader to develop market and basic trading skills that are crucial to trader development.
The following 6 users say Thank You to r3algood for this post:
I have always, always been a firm believer in the following: one can achieve anything in life, IF they are willing to sacrifice anything for it.
Bold statement to be sure, and it does have to be grounded in reality to a certain degree. If I decide I want to fly, the chances of me figuring out how to flap my arms fast enough to get airborne are pretty much nil. But... I can certainly get a pilot's license, or go hang gliding, or any number of things to achieve my goal.
My initial answer to your question about that person above.... IF that trader is willing to burn his kids college fund, IF he is willing to hand over that 20K in courses, and IF he is willing to sacrifice his marriage and family for trading... then yes, he should be trading.
Sound ridiculous? Absolutely. But, right or wrong, in a sick sort of way you would have to appreciate someone's absolute dedication to their goal no matter what. Brings to mind the Samurai mentality - duty above all else.
The only thing that doesn't fit in all that is this - by getting married, having kids, etc, this "trader's" first duty is to his family, to the commitments he has made to them, expressed or implied, to take care of them as a husband and father. If he/she wants to be a trader first, at all costs, then she should not sacrifice anyone else's lives or futures for that.
This thread, and that post of yours Mike, struck a deep and painful cord in me. Been there, done that to a certain degree, a long time ago. Having had much success in my life in so many different areas, I knew, just KNEW, that I could succeed at trading also. After all, how hard could it be.... buy low, sell high, right? Make truckloads of money and everyone will be happy as can be.
I was humbled beyond belief, lost A LOT, and not just talking about money. And it took me a long time to admit defeat. I am infinitely regretful for my blind pride and arrogance, but, I am also thankful in a way. I fell, I got up, and I have persevered. I have learned, and although I wish I had done things differently, I can now look back and see that every little thing was a lesson, painful as it may have been.
Wow, looking over my post, certainly didn't think I was going to spill my guts about my dark trading addiction days, and hesitating to hit the submit button. But, who knows, maybe it will help someone. I know for a fact that one can be successful in this endeavor - I trade, I am profitable, and more importantly, I am comfortable with what I do.
After all that, my answer to your question is....no, this person should not be trading. BUT.... if they are that far into that type of situation, they will absolutely not listen to anyone - you, me, their family - no one. They will have to take the absolute ass kicking that they are in for, and either be better for it, or not. I sympathize with your situation and all those types of communications I know you get on a regular basis, but someone like that has an addiction, and just like any other habit, is going to have to hit rock bottom before they come back up.
I know from experience.
The following 36 users say Thank You to Maelstrom for this post:
No. Sometime people will hit rock bottom and change. Other times, they will hit rock bottom and keep on digging. This is one of the best threads I have seen in a long time on any forum, and I hope this does help others realize that they might need to change. Or quit.
Math. A gateway drug to reality.
The following 7 users say Thank You to traderwerks for this post:
The best example I can give is try playing in a poker tournament with 1000's of players where only top 10 or so really make money. Trading is very similar to poker and chess in many aspects. As Mike pointed out some people are just not suited for it. It's a career, for the long haul. Sure you can hit a home run but it's the singles that eventually count-the home runs help but its your overall risk appetite and account size and how you handle both that's going to matter in the end.
I read a 100 books and was well capitalized when I started trading. I never blew up an account but I wasn't profitable for a long time. The only reason I didnt blow up an account was cause one thing stuck with me from over the 100 books I read was that "always preserve capital and the market will always be there whether you are there the next day or not". Lots of times I swallowed the bitter pill with a loss bigger than what I wanted to account for rather than hope for it to turn in my favor. Over the years I can remember tons of trades that were big losses but nothing catastrophic and you know what - Not a single one of them would have worked anyways. The losses would have been bigger.
And the second thing I see a lot of people doing is writing naked options without realizing the potential landmine. I had a trading buddy of mine who wrote naked calls on Phelps Dodge a mining company. It opened 25% higher the next day and he was wiped out. As cut throat trading is I never relish in pain for someone I know. He spent next 2 years paying his broker. Imagine that?
Lots of people come with trading pipe dreams of trading ES with $3k accounts and making $500 a day. Maybe they dont like their current job or whatever. Its like showing up for the NFL scout camp and taking a hit from a linebacker. Unless you are prepared for it ER is the place for you. That's how brutal trading is.
Even after almost 10 years of trading I have an edge of about 60% and that too if I keep risk under control. The moment I let the monkey out I am hurting and as a trader you are always evolving.
Dont't let my post discourage the ones who are willing to put in the effort. It's very rewarding in its own rights. Unlimited freedom. You are always in the "know" of current events. Never blindsided-Told 2 of my closest folks to take their money out in 2007 and sell real estate in 2006. Both didnt listen saying it was for the long term. Guess what ? Now they have to stay with it for long term-if you know what I mean. Again, it didnt bring me any pleasure but just self awareness and abundant thankfulness to supreme power for letting me be who I am becoming. Trading is great for the financial freedom and while people are getting laid off and sending endless resumes, you are working hard honing your skills -looking for new opportunities and making $. Each and everyday. Welcome to my world. When I am not opinionated, I am the skilled archer you see at the Olympics-bulls eye every time. Yeah, that's me. But for now time to get back to scans, news, slogging endless hours, endless hours so that when I take the shot it's perfect-each time, every time.
The following 27 users say Thank You to garyboy275 for this post:
