just wondering if you can really be in a romantic relationship and fully live your emotions while you are trading for a living. Any thoughts on this?

If you are an day trader where you are focused for a long time in front of the screen monitoring your trades and taking multiple small dollar value profit/losses I think that you would be devoting more time or focus to trading rather than your romantic interest.

Being in good mood, optimistic and not under pressure: trade!
If not: PAUSE!

GFIs1

??? sounds like it is "either/or" but not "both" for you. I think there is a place for "both"

I think it really depends on the type of trading you do.

If you are an day trader where you are focused for a long time in front of the screen monitoring your trades and taking multiple small dollar value profit/losses I think that you would be devoting more time or focus to trading rather than your romantic interest.

If you are a long term trader, the pressures are different. If you choose wisely you can simply devote a set time of the week to review/updating your stock portfolio. It could be once or twice a week, a few hours on a Saturday afternoon even. The attention during the week would only be a result of that review. You are not focused on stocks 24/7, you can even leave your portfolio for a few weeks for a trip and not be worried of returning and finding you blew your account...in fact you might find the appreciation of your portfolio paid for the trip. A romantic relationship is definitely possible under these circumstances.

the price moves just to hit my stoploss.

@umang

you gained valuable experience on that trade

1) you used a very long term 15min candle (uh, perhaps rethink this in the future)
2) you believed what you probably read, regarding bull flag candles
3) you took a 3 second trade on a 15 min candle (what seems out of context there?)

hope you didn't loose that much, and hope you have some means of adjusting your taxes accordingly

I don't know what offshore accounts get to do regarding profits / losses on trading accounts....

Thanks for reply kronie ji Next day I brought seeing the breakout and positive divergence in MACD .Also I wanted to take revenge of past day(though heard it 1000s of times that we must not). But it hit my stoploss. Then I dint have guts to buy again when there was buy confirmation .

Thanks for your advice on regarding adding new charts and indicator kronie ji. I have a trading system that's working fine for me (not shown in above chart) only thing I wanted to show in my reply above is how my luck is not with me which brings in me feeling of giving up trading sometimes . The topic of this Thread is Time to Give Up. I just want to tell what things are bringing in me the feeling of giving up.
one more example:- below

Is there an immutable rule that successful traders must blow their first trading account? Is this a required lesson that I had to learn? I believe so.

I knew the rules - the two most important rules I had set for myself, and I broke them. When I woke up yesterday morning and saw that I had hit a margin call for the second time in two days, and practically all the money I had was simply gone, I was literally sick to my stomach.

The second trade was exactly like the first. After grabbing $300 to $500 gain - and zero losses - several days in a row, I got greedy. Way too greedy. The price reversed, but I didn't want to lose, so I doubled down, and doubled down again. Lost it all.

Rule 1 - only trade on a signal, not an expectation.
Rule 2 - limit risk to 2% of account.

I won't detail just how much financial damage I inflicted on myself, I don't want you to think I'm as foolish as I've been accusing myself of being. As foolish as I was. A VERY painful lesson.

I'm grateful that this lesson occurred, I now have some assurance, that having broken through the first step to trading successfully, I'm actually getting ahead.

I have had excellent support from my family, but I can't bring myself to show them what I've done. If the result is that I have to seek out employment (again) I'll just give a general picture that I made mistakes. I have to tell somebody though. I'm embarrassed and ashamed.

No, I will NOT quit. I've averaged 12 hours per day 7 days a week for the last 6 months working, studying, and learning my market and my trading software. Success is the only option.

I WILL take losses from now on, so I will NEVER lose money like that again!

Is there an immutable rule that successful traders must blow their first trading account? Is this a required lesson that I had to learn? I believe so.

I knew the rules - the two most important rules I had set for myself, and I broke them. When I woke up yesterday morning and saw that I had hit a margin call for the second time in two days, and practically all the money I had was simply gone, I was literally sick to my stomach.

The second trade was exactly like the first. After grabbing $300 to $500 gain - and zero losses - several days in a row, I got greedy. Way too greedy. The price reversed, but I didn't want to lose, so I doubled down, and doubled down again. Lost it all.

Rule 1 - only trade on a signal, not an expectation.
Rule 2 - limit risk to 2% of account.

I won't detail just how much financial damage I inflicted on myself, I don't want you to think I'm as foolish as I've been accusing myself of being. As foolish as I was. A VERY painful lesson.

I'm grateful that this lesson occurred, I now have some assurance, that having broken through the first step to trading successfully, I'm actually getting ahead.

I have had excellent support from my family, but I can't bring myself to show them what I've done. If the result is that I have to seek out employment (again) I'll just give a general picture that I made mistakes. I have to tell somebody though. I'm embarrassed and ashamed.

No, I will NOT quit. I've averaged 12 hours per day 7 days a week for the last 6 months working, studying, and learning my market and my trading software. Success is the only option.

I WILL take losses from now on, so I will NEVER lose money like that again!

Hi,
I think at least some of my problems with trading are from the emotions I deal with while trading. I actually thought I was alone in this before reading this thread, and it's been a welcome eyeopener. I've been working with a reiki practitioner on the stuff that comes up when I trade, causing me to eat like a bird and take a dump like an elephant. Here's what I've dealt with so far- fear of being powerless in an out of control situation. ( Trade going the wrong way.) Second big one- every time I've been successful at something I've had to deal with envy and nasty stuff from people who are jealous. I've going to deal with that by keeping my mouth shut about it if I do get to the point of being profitable in this long run.
I've been evaluating every trade, writing down what happens, and evaluating my trade by coming up with a ratio of how I rate myself in trade planning, trade entry, trade execution. Then I figure out what I did wrong, and how I can improve my results for my next trade.
I am trading nadex options, I want to trade futures but I want to get my trade issues dealt with before I take on the futures markets- which have a much higher degree of risk than options, where your risk is limited to the amount of the option.
For a long time, I was so paralyzed by fear that I could not record my trades, and I would overtrade out of frustration and anger. Nadex lets me trade live without risking a lot while I learn to deal with trades going sideways, even after you get up on time, evaluate the markets, put together your trade plan, and your buy and sell points. I screwed up today because I've had a series of losing trades, I planned carefully, got a good entry, and the trade hit my strike price and reversed. I had failed to set a stop loss on the trade, and was 'just hoping' it would go back up. My cat started to howl, my chest felt tight, I was looking at the atr, thinking, it's declining, that is not a good sign, but I didn't pull the trade where I should have, because I failed to set a stop loss. That's a big error. I got paralyzed again.
I think today is going to be range bound (ES) and I went long at the top of the range thinking it was an upside break out.
Hind sight is 20/20, isn't it? One issue with Nadex options that is specific to binaries is that you have a time limit on the option, and it is a yes no proposition, you are either in the money on the option or not, and you lose your premium if you are in the wrong direction. I want to make the shorter term options work for me, so that I don't sit in front of the computer all day protecting my position.
So more practice on exits for me. I get paralyzed when I don't have an exit plan, and I need to exit.
My next issue to deal with is being angry when I have a losing trade and wanting to get even.
Thanks all of you for posting to this thread it's been very helpful to me.
Jenne

Never give up, never surrender, be all that you can be. Never half ass trading. If you plan to be a trader give it your all. Learn all you can learn. Make it your everything. If you fail try, try, and try again. figure out what you did wrong. If you don't know then ask someone whose a better trader. If you have obligations to your family then pick up a stable job and learn how to trade in your spare time but don't abandon your family. This is the only moral reason I could think that would be a good enough reason to quit temporarily because the children depend on their parents income. That and if you're under capitalized and need a job to live then by all means find a job to work but don't quit simply for that reason just keep learning when you have time.

Jenne,
if you read only one trading psychology book, read "Trade Mindfully" by Gary Dayton. I read this after few others recommended it in this forum and it really is good book. Thinking (heuristics or mental shortcuts) is as important as emotions in trading. It will give you a reason to practice mindfulness.

Lot of people fail with mindfulness is when they try to control "quieting the mind" or thoughts and get upset when it is not that "quiet" as expected even after trying "hard". This by itself is causing stress and anxiety.

Managing discomfort is key to successful trading and looking at discomfort as a cue to be objective will greatly help you. Bottom-line is do not fight them but accept and use them.

That may be true but was not the inspiration for the post. The inspiration was one too many emails or PM's from people who -- many of which have no business trading -- wanting to know what trading room they should follow, or what system is the most profitable. Then there are the PM's and emails from the guys who have lost their life savings, are on the outs with their wife, who have devoted the last two years of their life trying to make this work -- but cannot.

Mike

Jenne,
if you read only one trading psychology book, read "Trade Mindfully" by Gary Dayton. I read this after few others recommended it in this forum and it really is good book. Thinking (heuristics or mental shortcuts) is as important as emotions in trading. It will give you a reason to practice mindfulness.

Lot of people fail with mindfulness is when they try to control "quieting the mind" or thoughts and get upset when it is not that "quiet" as expected even after trying "hard". This by itself is causing stress and anxiety.

Managing discomfort is key to successful trading and looking at discomfort as a cue to be objective will greatly help you. Bottom-line is do not fight them but accept and use them.

Threads like this really get to the heart and soul of who we really are as people IMHO.

Thank you everyone for being vulnerable and expressing your stories, feelings, and journey on here. I apologize about the length of this but I hope it reaches some traders and perhaps opens some eyes.

In my very humble opinion making a career as a trader has much to do with sacrifice. I often sit out on my surfboard in the open ocean and reminisce about my journey to become a successful professional trader. Although I have "made it" , and achieved consistent financial independence over the past 6 years, the cost has proven extremely great.

I was 26 when i started trading, I was a professional bodybuilder and fitness trainer with no formal education in anything remotely close to finance. I had a young wife who was my lifes love and 2 children (6 and 10 years old at that time).

Clearly defining what i took as my "strengths' that gave me success in my life( Iron discipline and the ability to execute a plan unerringly), I took to the markets guns blazing.

Guys Im really not trying to discourage or encourage anyone. I am mearly attempting to inject a dose of realism into a trade where unrealistic expectations run paramount by sharing my experiences and the rewards/repercussions of it.
I hear stories all the time of people saying how they are the types "who never give up", or who " will always persevere no matter what because they KNOW they can do it!" And other such colloquialisms.

Such a pollyannic attitude of thinking that "if you just hang in there long enough eventually you will win out", or that "if you win some sort of war of attrition with the market ultimately you will become a great trader" is just suicidal. We are inundated in society with the "Rocky" movies and other such "against all odds" type scenarios. Fellas, there is a REASON that these are movies. They are the dream, and they are absolutely the exception to the norm. Primarily done by exceptional people with untapped exceptional qualities.

We ALL want to be like that. We all love to think we are able to separate from the masses. And possibly in some ways we can. In fact I happen to have been an extremely successful champion bodybuilder. It took a massive amount of dedication, work, discipline and fortitude to bring a 265lb shredded physique to a stage. THAT was my gift and I found that trading took that PLUS a WHOLE lot more.

I put in my 10,000 hours of trading forex. I went to the ends of the internet and back. I focused on money management, risk analysis, price action, fundamental analysis, etc etc...

ENDLESS hours with no sleep... studying studying... persevering in some blind hope that I could achieve the same successes as many we hear about...

But... Success escaped me.... The doors just kept closing, accounts just kept slowly dwindling down... and the dream was dying a very quiet death.... All the while i found my interpersonal relationships with my wife and kids starting to suffer... More on that later..

I think perhaps it boils down to more than just "Can i make it in trading?" It is more a question of " Do I want to LIVE the traders life?" Frankly I feel that the vast majority are not near adequately ready to answer that question nor are most in anyway prepared for what an undertaking it is.

Being a zero sum business it is truly a journey into a complete unknown hostile battlefield for most without the help of even a compass or a weapon. In alignment with that analogy the odds are overwhelmingly against most. As somber of a thought as that may be, it is the hard truth.

I personally went through a very in-depth study of the marketplace after my first 6 months of floundering about. I studied the infrastructure of what creates the markets(forex, futures, equities, options, bonds, warrants, etc..). I studied how liquidity works, how are orders are filled, the interbank system. I learned about all the players across all the major markets, how they place their orders, what their aims are(commercial, institutional, CB's and retailers, etc). I studied Price Action for endless hours, staring at charts, plotting lines at support/resistance/supply/demand levels on all time frames to trade to and from. I studied the intricacies of market timing, the Gold fixes, how swap works, how brokers work. I went into in depth studies and read books on fundamental analysis. I learned a tremendous amount about the bond markets, yield curves, gold/oil ratios, correlating markets. I read every central bank book I could find. I know about the Fed top to bottom, the ECB, the RBA, the BOE. From the major players in those banks to how they originated. I studied fractional reserve banking because i wanted to learn how to asses how any of the policy makers could move the prices of currencies in relationship to one another. I read endless books on orderflow and macroeconomics. I strived to try and understand how and why certain policies and catalysts around the world would move one currency agaisnt the others.

All this time endlessly looking at charts. Hours and hours spent putting in demo trade after demo trade testing and endlessly testing.

I never believed in any technical indicators. I still dont. I always just traded Naked charts. Maybe at the most I used a stochastic early on but id be hard pressed to explain what almost any of the other lagging indicators does. To me they have never made sense. Trust me, I studied ALL of them in massive detail.

I placed together my system using multiple time frames with S/R, S/D zones, fundamental drivers, watching for news catalysts, my endless charting knowledge of PA, my risk management in place, looking at market timing, pre-panning my trades, etc etc..... it met with failure time and time again. days turned to weeks and weeks turned to months as I tried tweaking and adjusting, studying harder, working more and more. I REFUSED to be undone! I changed my risk management, time frames, used only PA I thought had the BEST chances of working. I called on help from every trader more veteran than myself and they all gave me advice. Still, I failed.

I figured it must be my psychology. So I delved heavily into self exploration, meditation, read books. Sought out gurus, got my mind right. Tried to identify my fears of losing or attachement to money. I made Goals, endless goals. Every day. I planned my life 10 years into the future in every aspect i could to achieve the "trading mindset".

I felt as ready as ever and went back into the market. More months fell off the chart as my accounts kept slowly dwindling down and dying. If I was using a 3:1 reward to risk Id lose 4 out of 5 trades consistently. It was always a slow bleed.

I then went the path of trying to find a mentor. Someone who could help me to identify my flaws in my trading/self and guide me to correct them. At this point years had already been spent and frustration was starting to set in. I had sacrificed much. My family had fallen apart, my work was suffering, as was my health(which I had prided myself on for my whole life) from the many nights up late trading and focusing. Trying to self sustain on negative returns.

Relentlessly I pushed on.

The mentors all were dead ends. I was watching my close friends starting to achieve success. They tried to help me, going so far as to try and copy their systems. All met with more failure.

More years went by. My wife and love left me with the kids. I made sure the door didnt hit them in the ass on their way out....Such was my obsession to not be undone...

Success did not come with it.

I moved into studying the quantside of trading. Learning to program code. Momentum trading, mean-reversion trading, Sharpe ratio, etc etc. Trying to learn to achieve positive kurtosis through algo identification of price trends. I delved deeply into this thinking that maybe, just maybe it was my only way. I ran into a brick wall. My algos would get taken out, my hidden markov models did not have the proper risk management protocols built in to keep me safe from many of the hidden liquidity issues in the fx markets and again.... suffice to say, I again was met with more defeat

At this point, utterly defeated, not knowing where to turn. I withdrew deeply into myself and saw what my life had become. I had become a shell of who i once was. I took a long break and a long period of self reflection and came to the end of my rope.

I was busted, homeless, alone, living in my car and sustaining on $.29 taco Tuesdays at taco bell. I showered at the gym and studied trading on Starbucks Wifi. I had no idea where my wife or kids were until the divorce papers showed up at my parents house since i didnt have a physical address.

When doors open in life. It is wise to walk through them. I believe we all have a calling. Im not religious, but I believe in a higher "self. To listen to the signs of life makes life much easier and it goes more smoothly. It was only after this realization I finally made my decision that the doors were firmly closed on my decision to become a trader. I learned a great deal about finance, markets, ect... but Mostly about myself.


I am far from a fascinating case study. I committed to giving my all to learning these markets much like many other aspiring traders start out. I was never one to easily give up on anything in life.

Tenacity and discipline has given me many of the things in my life I am the most proud of as well as thankful for. There just came a point to where the cost benefit of working to master the markets and live the "lifestyle" became more than I was willing to pay.

I ended up one night sitting on the beach, utterly destroyed, with the barrel of a loaded .44 between my teeth. I sobbed and sobbed and cried out to whatever powers that be that if this was the end for me just give me the strength the pull the trigger.... I got my answer when i woke up in the morning, soaking wet and freezing cold, but alive. That was my bottom.

I was still certain it was possible to trade these markets successfully. There is far to much evidence to support it and I would never be so obtuse as to argue in opposition. I simply came to the simple realization that we are all NOT created equal, nor do we all have the same capacity for successes and failures in different ventures in this life.

I ultimately realized the fact that maybe I had overcomplicated a more simplistic business. That being said it is quite a feat "unlearning" everything. Armed with the knowledge I had nothing to lose I resolved to cut out as much as possible to create a trading system that was simplistic, profitable, and viable. With what i had been through the concepts of losing money being the worst thing that could happen simply disappeared and I started to see profit in my trading.

Then more profits, and MORE profits. To my astonishment in less than 12 months I reached a peak watermark in my finances for life. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about my health or my relationships. I have never met anyone else and feel as though I have truly sacrificed my true soulmate for my fiscal successes. My children dont want to see me as Im afraid I destroyed those relationships too in their formative years in my unrelenting pursuit of success in trading.

All this being said, I have accepted my life where it is. I am listening more than ever to my "inner-self" and going along with the type of life that I feel is more in alignment with who I want to show up as in life. I opened up a small training studio and have rekindled my passion for helping others through fitness.

The vast majority of traders are extremely introverted and highly analytical. While I am certainly the latter, I am by no means the former. Trading is a lonely business. Traders do not really give anything meaningful back to society in the way that doctors, engineers, teachers, and any other more humanitarian type career does. I personally always had a difficult time with that aspect. As a personal trainer by trade I have always loved the aspect of helping people look better, feel more youthful, and improve the quality of an individuals life . It is a different sort of gratification than watching the GBP/JPY go +50 pips in profit. I am sure we have all heard of and possibly lived(I know i have) through a personal relationship falling apart due to the demands of the financial markets. It, by the very nature, breeds isolation from the rest of society.

Knowing who we are from what we are not is an integral part of our lessons in this world. Once you do know who and what you are it is wise to act in accordance to it.

Make certain the cost of what you want to do with this business is what you are prepared to bear


Wulf

high rahul hope u r doing good in trading....

any tricks u know to come out of stress(suffered thru huge continuous dd)?

thanks
happy trading

I'm glad I came back.

I started out, while in the middle of my education program, and couldn't focus on both. I quit trading because I fit the description of someone who should have quit.

I've finished my program, I work a stable job that supports me and my family, and am seeking the greater challenge.

I don't need the money, as I could retire five times over. Something I read in this thread defined my desires for me: risk management, human psychology, and strategy implementation.

They aren't different, but rather they are limbs of what constitutes trading.

Anyways, I'm an amateur, and look forward to losing all my money

So David let me ask a blunt question... hope you don't mind or take offense... why do you believe trading is right for you?

OK let me back up to be fair. Do you believe that anyone can be profitable at trading? Or do you believe that some people are not cut out for it? Some believe any skill can be learned, others believe that there are some things they should accept are not their strong suits and move on.

Mike

Does this person have any business trading?

- Has been trading for 2 years, and has lost 50K out of his kids college fund
- Has paid over 20K in "courses" and "trading rooms" for "mentorships" and "systems"
- Hasn't told his wife or kids the extent of his losses

Mike

He's only been doing it for 2 years. The fact that even with a 50K loss that he is still willing to spend 20k more to pursue some kind of trading knowledge may show that he has strong intent but unless he discovers that it's not so much his trading system but his trading psychology and examining himself and understanding that many of the things he does (such as lying to his wife and kids) that are the cause of his losses, he will lose but he won't know that he needs to quit until he's lost all of his kids' college fund.

If someone made $30.00 per day, is this considered a successful trader?

$30.00 per day multiplied by 240 trading days = $7,200.00 extra revenue per year.

Plan the Trade, Trade the Plan...

LOL.

You need to spend more time reading what has already been written on futures.io (formerly BMT), watching the webinars, reading the threads where traders make money every day (real money, 5 figures, not $30 dollars) and less time telling me I am wrong , less time defending your position out of ignorance, and less time following axioms from wanna be vendor-traders like "plan the trade, trade the plan" or reading books written a decade ago or more that have absolute no bearing on reality of this market.

My reply to you is only to help you, to get you to wake up and snap out of the dream world. If you don't take the time to appreciate the reply, or take the time to read what was already written, then there is no helping you.

Mike

No. At absolute best, that person simply has a hobby, a hobby that with 100% certainty costs him a lot of money and time every year.

Mike

This thread has been amazing.

There are so many good posts. I'm just starting out as a trader and only have 2-3 years of experience and no profitable track record.

The perspectives on here are really valuable.

Thanks everyone.

I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

....

From my experience, people who have become very successful have always thought of taking their hobby and making it their full time career. Who wouldn't want to do that? Making their hobby into a stream of income....Something like BMT into Futures.io, a hobby, can we call it that?

BTW, I should complete that by saying that while willpower alone is not enough to be profitable, it is a prerequisite. You cannot succeed without it.

Some people think that their willpower to succeed is their edge, because they will make this work no matter what. I view that as more of a prerequisite than an advantage over the other professional traders.

It is always helpful to know who you are trading against and see how you compare.

Mike

I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

For every good trader out there, there are 100 more who think they can just copy someone else's method and start making money or join some trading room or download some expensive set of indicators, and be profitable.

Most of these guys have completely unrealistic expectations. They expect to take $10,000 and turn it into $100,000 at the end of the year, for example, even though they have no track record of performance or gains.

These people have no plan. They constantly blame their computer, their trading platform, their broker, their wife, their kids for missing trades or mistakes during a trade. They have no idea what to focus on or where to start.

And worse, most of them are unwilling to do the work. Yes, there are people for which that does not apply who are truly trying their best. But they are few and far between. Most people that are struggling aren't even willing to maintain a journal. Most people aren't willing to set realistic expectations. Most people aren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

On top of that, most of these guys aren't in a position in their life to even give trading a chance. Examples would be that they just lost their job. That is the worse time to start trading. Other examples would be that they have a job but no real savings, no money to burn in trading education expenses (and I don't mean from a trading room or buying a product). Worse still, many of these guys have no support from their wife or girlfriend because as you can imagine, they are losing money and also spending a lot of "free time" with trading instead of with their loved ones or kids. This is an impossible situation to put yourself in and expect good results.

So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on.

In fact, a lot of times my advice to these guys is to move on. Stop trading. Let's be real, if you are undercapitalized, unwilling to do the real work, and have no support from your family -- you aren't in a position to be a good trader.

But I also have to be honest, some times when I tell someone to stop trading, what I am really wanting them to do is come back and tell me NO, they will not stop, they are going to make it work. I mean if you really want this, then fight for it. But as I've said countless times before -- willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable.

We know that most people "give up" once they blow all or a significant portion of their initial deposit at a broker. This usually happens in less than 90 days according to brokers I've talked to. Most of these people aren't a part of any trading forum, and those that are, most of them are not participating, do not have a journal, have not taken time to ask questions or formulate a plan, etc. Again let's be honest: if anyone had taken the time to formulate a plan and prepare, they would not have allowed themselves to blow an account in 90 days.

For the rest, the ones that are members of futures.io (formerly BMT), I find that the overwhelming (close to 100%) of people that are struggling are the ones that have zero posts. I've come to look at this as an important metric. The ones that are uninvolved in the forum, for whatever reason, are going to be at a big disadvantage in my opinion. They lack a support network but also lack the benefit of accountability which is so critically important.

I've also found that these struggling traders are ones that haven't participated in any webinars. So that means they are unwilling to put in the time. They spend all their time, instead, on downloading indicators or searching for a new trading room to call trades.

OK so let me end by putting this out there... when is it the appropriate time to give up? Let's be honest, not everyone is cut out for trading. In fact, if we are honest, very few are. So it's cruel to string some of these guys along, it would be better for them to help them identify early on they don't have what it takes and they should move on.

Mike

I don't want to have any vendor-related discussion here in this thread about the vendor who produced this video, but this is from last year and is an interesting watch for those who haven't seen it.



Does this video speak to you about why you are a trader?

Mike

I am a full time independent trader and it is the hardest most miserable job there is. There are weeks where im up, and weeks where i am down. looking back i make more than i lose and the weeks where i am up are great. last week i traded all week and ended up at a loss of over $400. i literally would've been better off financially if i sat in front of the sofa watching tv then trying to trade the markets from 8 - 5 every day. How many of you are willing to work for free some weeks or at a loss? Because unless you are lucky to get a job in a bank thats what you'll end up doing.

To be a trader you need 2 things

1. A very high threshold to pain
2. the willingness to work for free while you learn this business. (Which will take most up to 2 years. if you're really good you can do it in 1.)

you really believe you can do it in under a year? congrats to being the 95%.

today's traderbites - listen to it, several times maybe, to make it sink in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWnpqYfEksc


first 9 minutes are the daily news/VolPro analysis/prep. For the motivational
part only, start at Min 9 - Really good stuff

Cer

am a full time independent trader and it is the hardest most miserable job there is. There are weeks where im up, and weeks where i am down. looking back i make more than i lose and the weeks where i am up are great. last week i traded all week and ended up at a loss of over $400. i literally would've been better off financially if i sat in front of the sofa watching tv then trying to trade the markets from 8 - 5 every day. How many of you are willing to work for free some weeks or at a loss? Because unless you are lucky to get a job in a bank thats what you'll end up doing.

To be a trader you need 2 things

1. A very high threshold to pain
2. the willingness to work for free while you learn this business. (Which will take most up to 2 years. if you're really good you can do it in 1.)

you really believe you can do it in under a year? congrats to being the 95%.

What a terrible, sad and pathetic way to live. And if this is what you hold in your mind, neither you nor this trader will make it long term. Guaranteed.

My experience is the exact opposite. I love what I do, it is deeply fulfilling and I wouldn't 'trade' it for anything.

I have a very low joy threshold, and I am willing to enjoy all experiences.

From my personal experience i can say that most of the problems and stress comes from how you evaluate success.
When you measure success in trading on successful trades that hit your target, you end up as a playball of the market.

The best you can do as a trader is to execute according to your plan and stick to your rules.
You will never know with certainty if a setup you trade will first hit your stop or your target.
The profitabilty of your trading is based on the method you are trading and how well you stick to your plan and your rules.

There will be days on a regular basis where the market will not be in tune with your trading method. The best you can do is to realize this and to halt your trading for that day or at least for a few hours before your daily loss limit is reached.
There is nothing else you can do! If you get in financial or personal trouble on such days you dont have a plan.

Measure the day on how well you executed your trades and sticked to your plan and rules.
This is the only thing you have an influence on and what should make the difference between a good and a bad trading day for you.

If your daily loss limit or win target is reached, stop trading and be ready for another day.
Dont trade 24 hours a day, define one or two time window(s) and go for quality (focus) instead of quantity.

Optimize everything you can. The place you trade from, your charts, everything you have an influence on and what does have an influence on you. Make yourself aware of the things you can change to optimize and the things you cant.

Traders without a solid plan, rules and properly defined daily win targets and loss limits are prone to exhaust them self and end up depressed and frustrated.

If you experience hurdles or problems while executing your plan, (and you will) stay positive and try to overcome them in small steps. Dont be to hard to yourself, successful trading is hard to learn and will take time, energy and effort.
Trading for a living is a marathon and not a sprint! Be happy and proud for every small step you take.

If you are executing according to your plan and dont make money over a big enough sample of trades you are maybe trading a method which has no edge in the market. Evaluate, test and learn.

Trading is the most honest and pure thing i can think of. You make a mistake, you pay. nobody other to blame than yourself. Trading can teach you a lot of valuable skills and will show your weakness without mercy. Learn to see this as a value and enjoy it!

i hope this helps anybody

cheers,
mike

Thanks Anagami, although that is your opinion and you're entitled to it.

That statement rings true about the nature of learning to trade and the difficulties along the way - better hear sobering statements about that than to hear tough, macho-style slogans on how good is to be a trader. To many successful traders - in my opinion - the former sentiment would also ring truer.

I've been trading for 10 years, and [...]

Thank you mike, what you wrote resonates with me. As I said having a bad day for me translates into not sticking to my own rules, i.e. falling into the mental trap of 'what if'. A loss is usually not a problem provided it was part of the accepted risk.

thank you, i deleted my post after i realized the thread itself is about when to stop trading.
but i am happy now it lives on at least as a quote because it took quite some time to write

as for your initial post, yes, not sticking to the rules is what happens absolutely every trader from time to time.
making a mistake and recognise it as such is important. but i think more important is to turn such things into something positive like a chance to learn and a chance to think about a way to prevent unwanted behaviour for the future.

for me personally it helps to write down those situations in a separate column in my trading log. i then see it when i write it down and each of the following days it reminds me to not break my rules.
during my trading session i often use that quote from mike bellafiore: "One good trade" to remind myself to only take valid setups.

another thing that from time to time comes to my mind is that after the trading session i will enable the "Plot executions" in ninjatrader to show the trades i have made and what i want to see there are good trades.

but this is a progress and we are human. think positive and let some room for mistakes. we learn from failure, not from success or like Salvador Dali once said: “Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it.”

cheers,
mike

After perusing some of the posts in here, I'm not even sure I have any business being here at all. I'm brand new, lost, and only working on a demo with a friend right now trading futures only. Been doing okay so far, but I'm sure things will change when real money is involved.

I need to find some really elementary stuff in this forum to just get myself rolling along. I'm a quick study, but I need the information fed from a straw rather than a firehose at first. Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

... Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

After perusing some of the posts in here, I'm not even sure I have any business being here at all. I'm brand new, lost, and only working on a demo with a friend right now trading futures only. Been doing okay so far, but I'm sure things will change when real money is involved.

I need to find some really elementary stuff in this forum to just get myself rolling along. I'm a quick study, but I need the information fed from a straw rather than a firehose at first. Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

After perusing some of the posts in here, I'm not even sure I have any business being here at all. I'm brand new, lost, and only working on a demo with a friend right now trading futures only. Been doing okay so far, but I'm sure things will change when real money is involved.

I need to find some really elementary stuff in this forum to just get myself rolling along. I'm a quick study, but I need the information fed from a straw rather than a firehose at first. Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

Let this sink in--- 95% of all traders do not make any money. It all goes to the 5%. What on earth would lead you to believe that you are going to be in that 5%?? The odds are stacked. My advice-- do not start, run, do everything you can to put trading out of your mind. You will not make money doing this. How do I know this? Because you like 99.9% of the people here are not honest enough to ask the 2 questions that you really seek answers for. Namely, What is it that the 5% know that you do not? And, is there a way to make them tell? The answers are: They'll never tell, and there is no way to make them. But I'm sure you, like others will continue to buy books, newsletters, webinars, systems, ect... no matter what the facts are. And be sure to keep a journal and have a lot of posts because that is a sure ingredient for success. Since when did keeping track of bad trading suddenly turn any one into a good trader? It only reinforces bad trading period. Your brokerage statement is the only journal you need.

This thread is about when to stop, I guess my post is really about -- not even starting.

I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital. One of the best traders I know now blew his account up 3 times and almost a 4th before he became SUPER disciplined. I blew up one account and almost another before I took that side of things seriously enough. If I had to do it all over again, I would have paper traded at least 3-6 months before placing any live trades.

Also, I started to become a lot more profitable and more consistent when I started trading smaller, so that emotions weren't part of my mindset. Stay small and use stops and be very patient to enter and your win % goes way up in my view

Let this sink in--- 95% of all traders do not make any money. It all goes to the 5%. What on earth would lead you to believe that you are going to be in that 5%?? The odds are stacked. My advice-- do not start, run, do everything you can to put trading out of your mind. You will not make money doing this. How do I know this? Because you like 99.9% of the people here are not honest enough to ask the 2 questions that you really seek answers for. Namely, What is it that the 5% know that you do not? And, is there a way to make them tell? The answers are: They'll never tell, and there is no way to make them. But I'm sure you, like others will continue to buy books, newsletters, webinars, systems, ect... no matter what the facts are. And be sure to keep a journal and have a lot of posts because that is a sure ingredient for success. Since when did keeping track of bad trading suddenly turn any one into a good trader? It only reinforces bad trading period. Your brokerage statement is the only journal you need.

This thread is about when to stop, I guess my post is really about -- not even starting.

There is a risk that you will stay at your small sizes for years

I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital
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You're close, yet ever so far away. The one and only lesson that must be learned from blowing up your account is this-- You have to face the cold hard truth that you have no idea what you are doing. And until you admit it to yourself and then figure out a winning edge, you must never ever place a trade until you do. Only 5% have figured it out. Which probably translates to 99.9% of people on this site should never ever even start thinking about trading. Only when and if you wake up one morning and can truthfully say--- I without a shred of doubt have a winning edge, then and only then can you place a trade.

I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital
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You're close, yet ever so far away. The one and only lesson that must be learned from blowing up your account is this-- You have to face the cold hard truth that you have no idea what you are doing. And until you admit it to yourself and then figure out a winning edge, you must never ever place a trade until you do. Only 5% have figured it out. Which probably translates to 99.9% of people on this site should never ever even start thinking about trading. Only when and if you wake up one morning and can truthfully say--- I without a shred of doubt have a winning edge, then and only then can you place a trade.

I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

For every good trader out there, there are 100 more who think they can just copy someone else's method and start making money or join some trading room or download some expensive set of indicators, and be profitable.

Most of these guys have completely unrealistic expectations. They expect to take $10,000 and turn it into $100,000 at the end of the year, for example, even though they have no track record of performance or gains.

These people have no plan. They constantly blame their computer, their trading platform, their broker, their wife, their kids for missing trades or mistakes during a trade. They have no idea what to focus on or where to start.

And worse, most of them are unwilling to do the work. Yes, there are people for which that does not apply who are truly trying their best. But they are few and far between. Most people that are struggling aren't even willing to maintain a journal. Most people aren't willing to set realistic expectations. Most people aren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

On top of that, most of these guys aren't in a position in their life to even give trading a chance. Examples would be that they just lost their job. That is the worse time to start trading. Other examples would be that they have a job but no real savings, no money to burn in trading education expenses (and I don't mean from a trading room or buying a product). Worse still, many of these guys have no support from their wife or girlfriend because as you can imagine, they are losing money and also spending a lot of "free time" with trading instead of with their loved ones or kids. This is an impossible situation to put yourself in and expect good results.

So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on.

In fact, a lot of times my advice to these guys is to move on. Stop trading. Let's be real, if you are undercapitalized, unwilling to do the real work, and have no support from your family -- you aren't in a position to be a good trader.

But I also have to be honest, some times when I tell someone to stop trading, what I am really wanting them to do is come back and tell me NO, they will not stop, they are going to make it work. I mean if you really want this, then fight for it. But as I've said countless times before -- willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable.

We know that most people "give up" once they blow all or a significant portion of their initial deposit at a broker. This usually happens in less than 90 days according to brokers I've talked to. Most of these people aren't a part of any trading forum, and those that are, most of them are not participating, do not have a journal, have not taken time to ask questions or formulate a plan, etc. Again let's be honest: if anyone had taken the time to formulate a plan and prepare, they would not have allowed themselves to blow an account in 90 days.

For the rest, the ones that are members of futures.io (formerly BMT), I find that the overwhelming (close to 100%) of people that are struggling are the ones that have zero posts. I've come to look at this as an important metric. The ones that are uninvolved in the forum, for whatever reason, are going to be at a big disadvantage in my opinion. They lack a support network but also lack the benefit of accountability which is so critically important.

I've also found that these struggling traders are ones that haven't participated in any webinars. So that means they are unwilling to put in the time. They spend all their time, instead, on downloading indicators or searching for a new trading room to call trades.

OK so let me end by putting this out there... when is it the appropriate time to give up? Let's be honest, not everyone is cut out for trading. In fact, if we are honest, very few are. So it's cruel to string some of these guys along, it would be better for them to help them identify early on they don't have what it takes and they should move on.

Mike

If you really truthfully have an edge, you know that you will make money every day.

Depends on your mindset, I treat trading like a job and am happy to make money every day, and peace of mind goes a long way.When I start adding size outside of my comfort zone, I don't trade as well and I don't hold as long. I also don't enjoy it as much. So, sweating a lot more for a few extra bucks, maybe, doesn't seem worth the hassle, to me at least

I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital
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You're close, yet ever so far away. The one and only lesson that must be learned from blowing up your account is this-- You have to face the cold hard truth that you have no idea what you are doing. And until you admit it to yourself and then figure out a winning edge, you must never ever place a trade until you do. Only 5% have figured it out. Which probably translates to 99.9% of people on this site should never ever even start thinking about trading. Only when and if you wake up one morning and can truthfully say--- I without a shred of doubt have a winning edge, then and only then can you place a trade.

Great post! $400-$500/day is all you need. Same reason for never holding a trade over night, is the same reason for taking money out of your account. Any thing can happen. MF Global any one?

I have spent quite a lot of time reviewing longer term track records of some of the best traders out there and notice that some of them even have losing months. Some of them even have successive losing months. Yet some of these traders who have had losing months are regarded as the best in the world. Heck, some of them even feature in Market Wizards. If these traders who are obviously some of the best in the world can't make money every day, does it mean they have no edge???

Totally agree with this post.....

It's completely impossible to know the sequence of wins and losses ahead of time for ANY edge, period. That is why these traders sometimes have these losing months. But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen.

Anybody know what happen on Monday August 18, 1913? And the corresponding behavior of the masses (lacking probability training)?





Monday August 18, 1913





Ron

"But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen."

Riddle me this: If someone keeps abandoning their method and looks for another, shouldn't they eventually stumble on something that works? Eventually stumble into success?

Totally agree with this post.....

It's completely impossible to know the sequence of wins and losses ahead of time for ANY edge, period. That is why these traders sometimes have these losing months. But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen.

Anybody know what happen on Monday August 18, 1913? And the corresponding behavior of the masses (lacking probability training)?

Monday August 18, 1913

Ron

"But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen."

Riddle me this: If someone keeps abandoning their method and looks for another, shouldn't they eventually stumble on something that works? Eventually stumble into success?