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Time to Give Up


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Time to Give Up

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  #201 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


Yuri57 View Post
just wondering if you can really be in a romantic relationship and fully live your emotions while you are trading for a living. Any thoughts on this?

I think it really depends on the type of trading you do.

If you are an day trader where you are focused for a long time in front of the screen monitoring your trades and taking multiple small dollar value profit/losses I think that you would be devoting more time or focus to trading rather than your romantic interest.

If you are a long term trader, the pressures are different. If you choose wisely you can simply devote a set time of the week to review/updating your stock portfolio. It could be once or twice a week, a few hours on a Saturday afternoon even. The attention during the week would only be a result of that review. You are not focused on stocks 24/7, you can even leave your portfolio for a few weeks for a trip and not be worried of returning and finding you blew your account...in fact you might find the appreciation of your portfolio paid for the trip. A romantic relationship is definitely possible under these circumstances.

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  #202 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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Underexposed View Post
If you are an day trader where you are focused for a long time in front of the screen monitoring your trades and taking multiple small dollar value profit/losses I think that you would be devoting more time or focus to trading rather than your romantic interest.

Being in good mood, optimistic and not under pressure: trade!
If not: PAUSE!

GFIs1

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  #203 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
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GFIs1 View Post
Being in good mood, optimistic and not under pressure: trade!
If not: PAUSE!

GFIs1

??? sounds like it is "either/or" but not "both" for you. I think there is a place for "both"

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  #204 (permalink)
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Underexposed View Post
??? sounds like it is "either/or" but not "both" for you. I think there is a place for "both"

My answer was just meant result oriented. If you are not looking at results you may trade always...

Great weekend
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  #205 (permalink)
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Underexposed View Post
I think it really depends on the type of trading you do.

If you are an day trader where you are focused for a long time in front of the screen monitoring your trades and taking multiple small dollar value profit/losses I think that you would be devoting more time or focus to trading rather than your romantic interest.

If you are a long term trader, the pressures are different. If you choose wisely you can simply devote a set time of the week to review/updating your stock portfolio. It could be once or twice a week, a few hours on a Saturday afternoon even. The attention during the week would only be a result of that review. You are not focused on stocks 24/7, you can even leave your portfolio for a few weeks for a trip and not be worried of returning and finding you blew your account...in fact you might find the appreciation of your portfolio paid for the trip. A romantic relationship is definitely possible under these circumstances.

Absolutely.
IMO, you can be any style trader and flourish. There are many professions that require an amazing amount of focus while you're preforming your duties, and people do it every day while in, or out of relationships.

I would say it is just as dangerous, of not more so, to be distracted by a crap relationship, than a romantic relationship. An intelligent partner would send their significant other to work feeling invincible.

Head up and keep your stick on the ice!
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  #206 (permalink)
goa india
 
 
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the price moves just to hit my stoploss.

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  #207 (permalink)
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umang View Post
the price moves just to hit my stoploss.

@umang

you gained valuable experience on that trade

1) you used a very long term 15min candle (uh, perhaps rethink this in the future)
2) you believed what you probably read, regarding bull flag candles
3) you took a 3 second trade on a 15 min candle (what seems out of context there?)

hope you didn't loose that much, and hope you have some means of adjusting your taxes accordingly

I don't know what offshore accounts get to do regarding profits / losses on trading accounts....

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  #208 (permalink)
goa india
 
 
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kronie View Post
@umang

you gained valuable experience on that trade

1) you used a very long term 15min candle (uh, perhaps rethink this in the future)
2) you believed what you probably read, regarding bull flag candles
3) you took a 3 second trade on a 15 min candle (what seems out of context there?)

hope you didn't loose that much, and hope you have some means of adjusting your taxes accordingly

I don't know what offshore accounts get to do regarding profits / losses on trading accounts....

Thanks for reply kronie ji Next day I brought seeing the breakout and positive divergence in MACD .Also I wanted to take revenge of past day(though heard it 1000s of times that we must not). But it hit my stoploss. Then I dint have guts to buy again when there was buy confirmation .

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  #209 (permalink)
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umang View Post
Thanks for reply kronie ji Next day I brought seeing the breakout and positive divergence in MACD .Also I wanted to take revenge of past day(though heard it 1000s of times that we must not). But it hit my stoploss. Then I dint have guts to buy again when there was buy confirmation .

@umang

we have an expression in the US, "you can't fix stupid"

we have a notion in trading investments (stocks, bonds, options, futures, currencies): "you can go broke being proved right"

as Bruce Lee might have said: "be neutral, my friend"

who cares, whether you were right, left, wrong or correct?
who cares whether you caught the bottom, or momentum traded with the trend and came in late.

your family (who doesn't get to eat does), your banker (who loses your business), your real estate agent (who can't sell your house fast enough...)

got it?

those ought to motivate you enough to take all this seriously!

I gave you a big hint?

it was context

it takes roughly 3 seconds to enter and confirm an order
you showed us a 15min interval chart from which you were making trading decisions

what seems out of context to you?

start there!
trade simulated...
get some new indicators and charts, just like you see here, that will show you better entries and opportunities...

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  #210 (permalink)
goa india
 
 
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Thanks for your advice on regarding adding new charts and indicator kronie ji. I have a trading system that's working fine for me (not shown in above chart) only thing I wanted to show in my reply above is how my luck is not with me which brings in me feeling of giving up trading sometimes . The topic of this Thread is Time to Give Up. I just want to tell what things are bringing in me the feeling of giving up.
one more example:- below


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  #211 (permalink)
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umang View Post
Thanks for your advice on regarding adding new charts and indicator kronie ji. I have a trading system that's working fine for me (not shown in above chart) only thing I wanted to show in my reply above is how my luck is not with me which brings in me feeling of giving up trading sometimes . The topic of this Thread is Time to Give Up. I just want to tell what things are bringing in me the feeling of giving up.
one more example:- below


careful,

you might be very successful!

@umang

add some type of volume indicator to your 15min chart, in panel 2, so that you can analyze it alone and give it its proper due. that should give you confidence, as you said you did not have

use volume profile (altomp, gomi or some other method)
use market profile or some other longer term (15min, 30min, 60min, etc) indicator to help

consider using and analyzing a much shorter term interval (4 range, 3min, 2min, 5min, 233tick / 633tick, or whatever) other than 15min in which to decide to enter, alter, exit orders from

think of jumping from a building ledge. do you think you would survive if it were:
a) 15 stories tall (i.e. 15min chart)
b) 60 stories tall (i.e. 60min chart)
c) 5 stories tall (i.e. 5min chart)
d) 2 stories tall (i.e. 2min chart)
e) 1 story tall (i.e. 1min chart)
get the idea?

some of the guys use gartley harmonic patterns and with wings to indicate patterns that are "most likely" to happen going forward. consider those parachutes, and then ask yourself the same questions again....

get the idea?

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  #212 (permalink)
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I learned to trade from a successful day trader. He started with 10,000$ in 1981 and made millions. When I met him I connected with his methodology. It made sense to me. I turned profitable after two months. At that time I was working for a private equity firm. The fund I was in charge of eventually closed. When I lost my job, my performance tanked. I went from being very profitable to being close to breakeven minus.
I could not understand what was going on. I started to hesitate, exit too early, too late, etc. Yet I had money to cover my life spending for several years ahead, I had support from my family, and I had a methodology with an edge.
It took me 18 months to figure out what was wrong. I really considered quitting. The Sedona method is what really turned things around for me (I am not an affiliate and I have no financial interest). I realized my mind had taken over my consciousness. I WANTED to make a living day trading. When I was at my job, I did not give a hoot. I would take my trades; the markets were telling what to do. My intuition was at its peak.
I soon understood how my wanting to control and my wanting security generated emotions I was either trying to suppress or express. Eventually I learned to let go, not give a hoot, and my trading started improving again.
There are many books out there on trading psychology. But most of it is information, it does not tell you how to actually achieve transformation. This one did.


“Fear, and it will appear.” Lester Levenson

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  #213 (permalink)
desert CA
 
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I happened across this article which is a bit more negative about daytrading while trying to be humorous:

11 or 12 Things I Learned About Life While Daytrading Millions of Dollars Altucher Confidential


EDIT: I just wanted to say. I don't agree that daytrading can't absolutely not be done, just that the article
had many good points about the negatives. Maybe the author never figured it out.

For a more hopeful idea of daytrading, this is another article on daytrading on how making a living could be feasible with some numbers thrown in:

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  #214 (permalink)
New Orleans, LA United States
 
 
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Is there an immutable rule that successful traders must blow their first trading account? Is this a required lesson that I had to learn? I believe so.

I knew the rules - the two most important rules I had set for myself, and I broke them. When I woke up yesterday morning and saw that I had hit a margin call for the second time in two days, and practically all the money I had was simply gone, I was literally sick to my stomach.

The second trade was exactly like the first. After grabbing $300 to $500 gain - and zero losses - several days in a row, I got greedy. Way too greedy. The price reversed, but I didn't want to lose, so I doubled down, and doubled down again. Lost it all.

Rule 1 - only trade on a signal, not an expectation.
Rule 2 - limit risk to 2% of account.

I won't detail just how much financial damage I inflicted on myself, I don't want you to think I'm as foolish as I've been accusing myself of being. As foolish as I was. A VERY painful lesson.

I'm grateful that this lesson occurred, I now have some assurance, that having broken through the first step to trading successfully, I'm actually getting ahead.

I have had excellent support from my family, but I can't bring myself to show them what I've done. If the result is that I have to seek out employment (again) I'll just give a general picture that I made mistakes. I have to tell somebody though. I'm embarrassed and ashamed.

No, I will NOT quit. I've averaged 12 hours per day 7 days a week for the last 6 months working, studying, and learning my market and my trading software. Success is the only option.

I WILL take losses from now on, so I will NEVER lose money like that again!

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  #215 (permalink)
tampa florida/united states
 
 
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CryptoTrader View Post
Is there an immutable rule that successful traders must blow their first trading account? Is this a required lesson that I had to learn? I believe so.

I knew the rules - the two most important rules I had set for myself, and I broke them. When I woke up yesterday morning and saw that I had hit a margin call for the second time in two days, and practically all the money I had was simply gone, I was literally sick to my stomach.

The second trade was exactly like the first. After grabbing $300 to $500 gain - and zero losses - several days in a row, I got greedy. Way too greedy. The price reversed, but I didn't want to lose, so I doubled down, and doubled down again. Lost it all.

Rule 1 - only trade on a signal, not an expectation.
Rule 2 - limit risk to 2% of account.

I won't detail just how much financial damage I inflicted on myself, I don't want you to think I'm as foolish as I've been accusing myself of being. As foolish as I was. A VERY painful lesson.

I'm grateful that this lesson occurred, I now have some assurance, that having broken through the first step to trading successfully, I'm actually getting ahead.

I have had excellent support from my family, but I can't bring myself to show them what I've done. If the result is that I have to seek out employment (again) I'll just give a general picture that I made mistakes. I have to tell somebody though. I'm embarrassed and ashamed.

No, I will NOT quit. I've averaged 12 hours per day 7 days a week for the last 6 months working, studying, and learning my market and my trading software. Success is the only option.

I WILL take losses from now on, so I will NEVER lose money like that again!

word for word, i know exactly where you are coming from and the pain that losing all that money can bring as i recently lost a significant amount of my trading capital in one days effort. now i am convinced that was something i had to go through in order to succeed. i was trading with money that i could afford to lose, but ended up losing ALOT more than i was willing to lose before i told myself to stop trading all together, as i am currently unemployed also and will start looking for a job soon. After my big loss i requested a full withdrawal from my account, then changed my mind a few days later, i decided to give it one last shot and started trading again this week with the little remaining balance i have in my account.
will see what happens from here

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  #216 (permalink)
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I think with the right attitude, discipline and good understanding of the markets anything is achievable.

it's a tough road...but if the calling comes from within.... it's a choice one needs to make

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  #217 (permalink)
Legendary Capt. Johnny Jameson
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CryptoTrader View Post
Is there an immutable rule that successful traders must blow their first trading account? Is this a required lesson that I had to learn? I believe so.

I knew the rules - the two most important rules I had set for myself, and I broke them. When I woke up yesterday morning and saw that I had hit a margin call for the second time in two days, and practically all the money I had was simply gone, I was literally sick to my stomach.

The second trade was exactly like the first. After grabbing $300 to $500 gain - and zero losses - several days in a row, I got greedy. Way too greedy. The price reversed, but I didn't want to lose, so I doubled down, and doubled down again. Lost it all.

Rule 1 - only trade on a signal, not an expectation.
Rule 2 - limit risk to 2% of account.

I won't detail just how much financial damage I inflicted on myself, I don't want you to think I'm as foolish as I've been accusing myself of being. As foolish as I was. A VERY painful lesson.

I'm grateful that this lesson occurred, I now have some assurance, that having broken through the first step to trading successfully, I'm actually getting ahead.

I have had excellent support from my family, but I can't bring myself to show them what I've done. If the result is that I have to seek out employment (again) I'll just give a general picture that I made mistakes. I have to tell somebody though. I'm embarrassed and ashamed.

No, I will NOT quit. I've averaged 12 hours per day 7 days a week for the last 6 months working, studying, and learning my market and my trading software. Success is the only option.

I WILL take losses from now on, so I will NEVER lose money like that again!


Yo Cryp,

You've certainly got the qualities to be a professional, profitable trader. Some of your bullet points should be requisite in the learning phase (although I do believe we should never stop learning.) In regards to your comment about blowing up your first account...I blew up many more than that...and I stuck with it because I knew I can do it...if I could just rap my head around the discipline and expand my horizons to what traders like @tigertrader and @tflanner have offered up.

~in rule 1 you trade the signal, not the expectation....I personally have found that not to be correct. Know the broader markets and trade the expectation...when you get "your" signal, be it price action and a significant level, market/volume profile or what you are using to...stalk and pounce!

You can do it, I know you can.

cheers

Johnny

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  #218 (permalink)
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Just thought of adding few points from my experience

If you trade to avoid loss and contain risk, you will be stuck at the max as a break-even trader. At the heart of successful trading is to embrace risk and accept loss as integral part of trading. Winning trade is not defined by profit and loss BUT whether you execute it fully as per the plan, setting proper stops and letting the profit target hit without taking few ticks profit just to reduce risk and feel comfortable.

In Japanese Risk is written as "Opportunity riding a dangerous wind".

As many have pointed out before, accepting loss and embracing risk is not an easy thing to do. You have to deal with a number of your limiting beliefs to achieve this.

Another aspect of psychology is having confidence in your trading system by having clear statistics on your systems performance and expectancy. How can you think in probabilities if you dont know the probability of your trading system?.

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  #219 (permalink)
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I got into trading options and then futures with the idea of transitioning away from my day job. I never planned on it being easy or quick. I did well initially with option trading but then had trouble with a sideways market when I wanted to be long and directional. I also got frustrated with shady practices in individual equities and then focused on index options which was painful.

Switching to futures too quickly was also a painful, painful lesson at first. Not managing risk correctly, trading too often, not having the ability to dedicate enough time (trading while working the day job)- things I didn't have to worry about as much with options became a huge issue with futures trading. It took me over a year to realize that I can't multitask trade- it simply is impossible. I now can dedicate a few hours during the day to trade and have stemmed the bleeding and manage risk better than before- I hope to recover the losses incurred and build a foundation for the future trading but as we all know, it takes patience and a lot of money.

Thank goodness I kept the day job...

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  #220 (permalink)
Minneapolis, MN
 
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feel bad for the people who "trade on a signal" because i can almost guarantee that you are a slightly green trader or not green at all. MACD, RSI all that BS tell you what you already know. this game is all about understanding context and anticipating (not reacting if you are a discretionary trader like most are)..not red light/green light. key is managing emotions and understanding how markets actually work (both quantitatively and qualitatively). GL in all your quests to become profitable. its a long journey.

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  #221 (permalink)
Homosassa, Fl USA
 
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Hi,
I think at least some of my problems with trading are from the emotions I deal with while trading. I actually thought I was alone in this before reading this thread, and it's been a welcome eyeopener. I've been working with a reiki practitioner on the stuff that comes up when I trade, causing me to eat like a bird and take a dump like an elephant. Here's what I've dealt with so far- fear of being powerless in an out of control situation. ( Trade going the wrong way.) Second big one- every time I've been successful at something I've had to deal with envy and nasty stuff from people who are jealous. I've going to deal with that by keeping my mouth shut about it if I do get to the point of being profitable in this long run.
I've been evaluating every trade, writing down what happens, and evaluating my trade by coming up with a ratio of how I rate myself in trade planning, trade entry, trade execution. Then I figure out what I did wrong, and how I can improve my results for my next trade.
I am trading nadex options, I want to trade futures but I want to get my trade issues dealt with before I take on the futures markets- which have a much higher degree of risk than options, where your risk is limited to the amount of the option.
For a long time, I was so paralyzed by fear that I could not record my trades, and I would overtrade out of frustration and anger. Nadex lets me trade live without risking a lot while I learn to deal with trades going sideways, even after you get up on time, evaluate the markets, put together your trade plan, and your buy and sell points. I screwed up today because I've had a series of losing trades, I planned carefully, got a good entry, and the trade hit my strike price and reversed. I had failed to set a stop loss on the trade, and was 'just hoping' it would go back up. My cat started to howl, my chest felt tight, I was looking at the atr, thinking, it's declining, that is not a good sign, but I didn't pull the trade where I should have, because I failed to set a stop loss. That's a big error. I got paralyzed again.
I think today is going to be range bound (ES) and I went long at the top of the range thinking it was an upside break out.
Hind sight is 20/20, isn't it? One issue with Nadex options that is specific to binaries is that you have a time limit on the option, and it is a yes no proposition, you are either in the money on the option or not, and you lose your premium if you are in the wrong direction. I want to make the shorter term options work for me, so that I don't sit in front of the computer all day protecting my position.
So more practice on exits for me. I get paralyzed when I don't have an exit plan, and I need to exit.
My next issue to deal with is being angry when I have a losing trade and wanting to get even.
Thanks all of you for posting to this thread it's been very helpful to me.
Jenne

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  #222 (permalink)
milpitas, ca, usa
 
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Jenne View Post
Hi,
I think at least some of my problems with trading are from the emotions I deal with while trading. I actually thought I was alone in this before reading this thread, and it's been a welcome eyeopener. I've been working with a reiki practitioner on the stuff that comes up when I trade, causing me to eat like a bird and take a dump like an elephant. Here's what I've dealt with so far- fear of being powerless in an out of control situation. ( Trade going the wrong way.) Second big one- every time I've been successful at something I've had to deal with envy and nasty stuff from people who are jealous. I've going to deal with that by keeping my mouth shut about it if I do get to the point of being profitable in this long run.
I've been evaluating every trade, writing down what happens, and evaluating my trade by coming up with a ratio of how I rate myself in trade planning, trade entry, trade execution. Then I figure out what I did wrong, and how I can improve my results for my next trade.
I am trading nadex options, I want to trade futures but I want to get my trade issues dealt with before I take on the futures markets- which have a much higher degree of risk than options, where your risk is limited to the amount of the option.
For a long time, I was so paralyzed by fear that I could not record my trades, and I would overtrade out of frustration and anger. Nadex lets me trade live without risking a lot while I learn to deal with trades going sideways, even after you get up on time, evaluate the markets, put together your trade plan, and your buy and sell points. I screwed up today because I've had a series of losing trades, I planned carefully, got a good entry, and the trade hit my strike price and reversed. I had failed to set a stop loss on the trade, and was 'just hoping' it would go back up. My cat started to howl, my chest felt tight, I was looking at the atr, thinking, it's declining, that is not a good sign, but I didn't pull the trade where I should have, because I failed to set a stop loss. That's a big error. I got paralyzed again.
I think today is going to be range bound (ES) and I went long at the top of the range thinking it was an upside break out.
Hind sight is 20/20, isn't it? One issue with Nadex options that is specific to binaries is that you have a time limit on the option, and it is a yes no proposition, you are either in the money on the option or not, and you lose your premium if you are in the wrong direction. I want to make the shorter term options work for me, so that I don't sit in front of the computer all day protecting my position.
So more practice on exits for me. I get paralyzed when I don't have an exit plan, and I need to exit.
My next issue to deal with is being angry when I have a losing trade and wanting to get even.
Thanks all of you for posting to this thread it's been very helpful to me.
Jenne

Jenne,
if you read only one trading psychology book, read "Trade Mindfully" by Gary Dayton. I read this after few others recommended it in this forum and it really is good book. Thinking (heuristics or mental shortcuts) is as important as emotions in trading. It will give you a reason to practice mindfulness.

Lot of people fail with mindfulness is when they try to control "quieting the mind" or thoughts and get upset when it is not that "quiet" as expected even after trying "hard". This by itself is causing stress and anxiety.

Managing discomfort is key to successful trading and looking at discomfort as a cue to be objective will greatly help you. Bottom-line is do not fight them but accept and use them.

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  #223 (permalink)
Philadelphia
 
Experience: None
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Never give up, never surrender, be all that you can be. Never half ass trading. If you plan to be a trader give it your all. Learn all you can learn. Make it your everything. If you fail try, try, and try again. figure out what you did wrong. If you don't know then ask someone whose a better trader. If you have obligations to your family then pick up a stable job and learn how to trade in your spare time but don't abandon your family. This is the only moral reason I could think that would be a good enough reason to quit temporarily because the children depend on their parents income. That and if you're under capitalized and need a job to live then by all means find a job to work but don't quit simply for that reason just keep learning when you have time.

R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
Please visit this thread for more information.
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  #224 (permalink)
Homosassa, Fl USA
 
Experience: Beginner
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Broker: Global futures, but may change to Midland
Trading: ES
 
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thanks for the replies, I will buy the book by dalton. I am hoping that I can get to the point of using my emotions, rather than being pushed around by them. My finances are OK, I work week ends, Friday Saturday and Sunday-it's enough to keep us floating. My husband is really supportive, so is my cat... I am noticing that I am no longer trading in a state of panic, and I can think about what I'm doing and record my actions and analyze them. My husband and I run a small business, I could explain to him that pulling an option trade short of the target is the equivalent of buying 500.00 worth of merchandise and selling for 300.00 to make the rent, and he got it.
If nothing else, I'm resolving my personal issues, who would have thought trading would be a vehicle to really looking at your own behavior. I'm older, already did the put the kid through college, people in my family literally die young at about 90, usually live to 100, I think this is my third real passion in life. and I agree, never, never sacrifice your family, there is no money that will salvage that one.
I think it has helped me to run the business week ends, while learning to trade, I really have to take a mental break and do something completely different for a while, when I get back to the screens on Monday, I may be tired, but my mental gears are no longer rusty. next step for me, get rid of the issues about having been ripped off in the past... and having that one pop up in trading.
thanks again,
Jenne

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  #225 (permalink)
NY NY USA
 
 
Posts: 7 since May 2015
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Itchymoku View Post
Never give up, never surrender, be all that you can be. Never half ass trading. If you plan to be a trader give it your all. Learn all you can learn. Make it your everything. If you fail try, try, and try again. figure out what you did wrong. If you don't know then ask someone whose a better trader. If you have obligations to your family then pick up a stable job and learn how to trade in your spare time but don't abandon your family. This is the only moral reason I could think that would be a good enough reason to quit temporarily because the children depend on their parents income. That and if you're under capitalized and need a job to live then by all means find a job to work but don't quit simply for that reason just keep learning when you have time.


very encouraging message to me right now. Thanks.

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  #226 (permalink)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada
 
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rahulgopi View Post
Jenne,
if you read only one trading psychology book, read "Trade Mindfully" by Gary Dayton. I read this after few others recommended it in this forum and it really is good book. Thinking (heuristics or mental shortcuts) is as important as emotions in trading. It will give you a reason to practice mindfulness.

Lot of people fail with mindfulness is when they try to control "quieting the mind" or thoughts and get upset when it is not that "quiet" as expected even after trying "hard". This by itself is causing stress and anxiety.

Managing discomfort is key to successful trading and looking at discomfort as a cue to be objective will greatly help you. Bottom-line is do not fight them but accept and use them.

I've read other books with similar themes, but not specific to trading. I bought this one yesterday and started reading last night .. great recommendation, thanks!

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  #227 (permalink)
Atlanta, GA
 
 
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Big Mike View Post
That may be true but was not the inspiration for the post. The inspiration was one too many emails or PM's from people who -- many of which have no business trading -- wanting to know what trading room they should follow, or what system is the most profitable. Then there are the PM's and emails from the guys who have lost their life savings, are on the outs with their wife, who have devoted the last two years of their life trying to make this work -- but cannot.

Mike

I can't image losing your life savings. Feel bad for those people.

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  #228 (permalink)
sydney australia
 
 
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Really appreciate the post - I might have to re-evaluate my situation.

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  #229 (permalink)
Yuma, AZ, USA
 
 
Posts: 9 since Jan 2015
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"I only become stronger because I identified my own weakness and worked for decades to improve"

"Know Thy Self"


1) Observe and Record

2) Postulate theory of your findings (Trading Results: What went right and wrong? How could one improve their results)

3) Review original findings (Trading results) and gather more findings (Data Analysis), re-observe to confirm your findings.

4) Try to disprove theory (More Analysis, I complete this through Wolfram and IBM software, it is exhausting but the ROI is worth your time and effort, given the fact, you and only you are responsible for your gains and losses)

5) If you can NOT disprove theory, the findings are substantiated. (Technical Analysis, Gann, Elliot, Fibonacci and hopefully the people beginning and intermediate level traders are working their way to Advance levels in their analysis.)

More importantly, my trading plan is in-depth and has 23 pages. It not simple just simply complicated, I rely solely on my trading plan to direct my decision making, it is my basis for the above 5 steps.

I spent more time analysing the markets than trading.

Gregory Alexandr (2nd generation trader)

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  #230 (permalink)
Vancouver Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
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today's traderbites - listen to it, several times maybe, to make it sink in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWnpqYfEksc


first 9 minutes are the daily news/VolPro analysis/prep. For the motivational
part only, start at Min 9 - Really good stuff

Cer

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NGP MS India
 
 
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rahulgopi View Post
Jenne,
if you read only one trading psychology book, read "Trade Mindfully" by Gary Dayton. I read this after few others recommended it in this forum and it really is good book. Thinking (heuristics or mental shortcuts) is as important as emotions in trading. It will give you a reason to practice mindfulness.

Lot of people fail with mindfulness is when they try to control "quieting the mind" or thoughts and get upset when it is not that "quiet" as expected even after trying "hard". This by itself is causing stress and anxiety.

Managing discomfort is key to successful trading and looking at discomfort as a cue to be objective will greatly help you. Bottom-line is do not fight them but accept and use them.

high rahul hope u r doing good in trading....

any tricks u know to come out of stress(suffered thru huge continuous dd)?

thanks
happy trading

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  #232 (permalink)
sydney australia
 
 
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FXwulf View Post
Threads like this really get to the heart and soul of who we really are as people IMHO.

Thank you everyone for being vulnerable and expressing your stories, feelings, and journey on here. I apologize about the length of this but I hope it reaches some traders and perhaps opens some eyes.

In my very humble opinion making a career as a trader has much to do with sacrifice. I often sit out on my surfboard in the open ocean and reminisce about my journey to become a successful professional trader. Although I have "made it" , and achieved consistent financial independence over the past 6 years, the cost has proven extremely great.

I was 26 when i started trading, I was a professional bodybuilder and fitness trainer with no formal education in anything remotely close to finance. I had a young wife who was my lifes love and 2 children (6 and 10 years old at that time).

Clearly defining what i took as my "strengths' that gave me success in my life( Iron discipline and the ability to execute a plan unerringly), I took to the markets guns blazing.

Guys Im really not trying to discourage or encourage anyone. I am mearly attempting to inject a dose of realism into a trade where unrealistic expectations run paramount by sharing my experiences and the rewards/repercussions of it.
I hear stories all the time of people saying how they are the types "who never give up", or who " will always persevere no matter what because they KNOW they can do it!" And other such colloquialisms.

Such a pollyannic attitude of thinking that "if you just hang in there long enough eventually you will win out", or that "if you win some sort of war of attrition with the market ultimately you will become a great trader" is just suicidal. We are inundated in society with the "Rocky" movies and other such "against all odds" type scenarios. Fellas, there is a REASON that these are movies. They are the dream, and they are absolutely the exception to the norm. Primarily done by exceptional people with untapped exceptional qualities.

We ALL want to be like that. We all love to think we are able to separate from the masses. And possibly in some ways we can. In fact I happen to have been an extremely successful champion bodybuilder. It took a massive amount of dedication, work, discipline and fortitude to bring a 265lb shredded physique to a stage. THAT was my gift and I found that trading took that PLUS a WHOLE lot more.

I put in my 10,000 hours of trading forex. I went to the ends of the internet and back. I focused on money management, risk analysis, price action, fundamental analysis, etc etc...

ENDLESS hours with no sleep... studying studying... persevering in some blind hope that I could achieve the same successes as many we hear about...

But... Success escaped me.... The doors just kept closing, accounts just kept slowly dwindling down... and the dream was dying a very quiet death.... All the while i found my interpersonal relationships with my wife and kids starting to suffer... More on that later..

I think perhaps it boils down to more than just "Can i make it in trading?" It is more a question of " Do I want to LIVE the traders life?" Frankly I feel that the vast majority are not near adequately ready to answer that question nor are most in anyway prepared for what an undertaking it is.

Being a zero sum business it is truly a journey into a complete unknown hostile battlefield for most without the help of even a compass or a weapon. In alignment with that analogy the odds are overwhelmingly against most. As somber of a thought as that may be, it is the hard truth.

I personally went through a very in-depth study of the marketplace after my first 6 months of floundering about. I studied the infrastructure of what creates the markets(forex, futures, equities, options, bonds, warrants, etc..). I studied how liquidity works, how are orders are filled, the interbank system. I learned about all the players across all the major markets, how they place their orders, what their aims are(commercial, institutional, CB's and retailers, etc). I studied Price Action for endless hours, staring at charts, plotting lines at support/resistance/supply/demand levels on all time frames to trade to and from. I studied the intricacies of market timing, the Gold fixes, how swap works, how brokers work. I went into in depth studies and read books on fundamental analysis. I learned a tremendous amount about the bond markets, yield curves, gold/oil ratios, correlating markets. I read every central bank book I could find. I know about the Fed top to bottom, the ECB, the RBA, the BOE. From the major players in those banks to how they originated. I studied fractional reserve banking because i wanted to learn how to asses how any of the policy makers could move the prices of currencies in relationship to one another. I read endless books on orderflow and macroeconomics. I strived to try and understand how and why certain policies and catalysts around the world would move one currency agaisnt the others.

All this time endlessly looking at charts. Hours and hours spent putting in demo trade after demo trade testing and endlessly testing.

I never believed in any technical indicators. I still dont. I always just traded Naked charts. Maybe at the most I used a stochastic early on but id be hard pressed to explain what almost any of the other lagging indicators does. To me they have never made sense. Trust me, I studied ALL of them in massive detail.

I placed together my system using multiple time frames with S/R, S/D zones, fundamental drivers, watching for news catalysts, my endless charting knowledge of PA, my risk management in place, looking at market timing, pre-panning my trades, etc etc..... it met with failure time and time again. days turned to weeks and weeks turned to months as I tried tweaking and adjusting, studying harder, working more and more. I REFUSED to be undone! I changed my risk management, time frames, used only PA I thought had the BEST chances of working. I called on help from every trader more veteran than myself and they all gave me advice. Still, I failed.

I figured it must be my psychology. So I delved heavily into self exploration, meditation, read books. Sought out gurus, got my mind right. Tried to identify my fears of losing or attachement to money. I made Goals, endless goals. Every day. I planned my life 10 years into the future in every aspect i could to achieve the "trading mindset".

I felt as ready as ever and went back into the market. More months fell off the chart as my accounts kept slowly dwindling down and dying. If I was using a 3:1 reward to risk Id lose 4 out of 5 trades consistently. It was always a slow bleed.

I then went the path of trying to find a mentor. Someone who could help me to identify my flaws in my trading/self and guide me to correct them. At this point years had already been spent and frustration was starting to set in. I had sacrificed much. My family had fallen apart, my work was suffering, as was my health(which I had prided myself on for my whole life) from the many nights up late trading and focusing. Trying to self sustain on negative returns.

Relentlessly I pushed on.

The mentors all were dead ends. I was watching my close friends starting to achieve success. They tried to help me, going so far as to try and copy their systems. All met with more failure.

More years went by. My wife and love left me with the kids. I made sure the door didnt hit them in the ass on their way out....Such was my obsession to not be undone...

Success did not come with it.

I moved into studying the quantside of trading. Learning to program code. Momentum trading, mean-reversion trading, Sharpe ratio, etc etc. Trying to learn to achieve positive kurtosis through algo identification of price trends. I delved deeply into this thinking that maybe, just maybe it was my only way. I ran into a brick wall. My algos would get taken out, my hidden markov models did not have the proper risk management protocols built in to keep me safe from many of the hidden liquidity issues in the fx markets and again.... suffice to say, I again was met with more defeat

At this point, utterly defeated, not knowing where to turn. I withdrew deeply into myself and saw what my life had become. I had become a shell of who i once was. I took a long break and a long period of self reflection and came to the end of my rope.

I was busted, homeless, alone, living in my car and sustaining on $.29 taco Tuesdays at taco bell. I showered at the gym and studied trading on Starbucks Wifi. I had no idea where my wife or kids were until the divorce papers showed up at my parents house since i didnt have a physical address.

When doors open in life. It is wise to walk through them. I believe we all have a calling. Im not religious, but I believe in a higher "self. To listen to the signs of life makes life much easier and it goes more smoothly. It was only after this realization I finally made my decision that the doors were firmly closed on my decision to become a trader. I learned a great deal about finance, markets, ect... but Mostly about myself.


I am far from a fascinating case study. I committed to giving my all to learning these markets much like many other aspiring traders start out. I was never one to easily give up on anything in life.

Tenacity and discipline has given me many of the things in my life I am the most proud of as well as thankful for. There just came a point to where the cost benefit of working to master the markets and live the "lifestyle" became more than I was willing to pay.

I ended up one night sitting on the beach, utterly destroyed, with the barrel of a loaded .44 between my teeth. I sobbed and sobbed and cried out to whatever powers that be that if this was the end for me just give me the strength the pull the trigger.... I got my answer when i woke up in the morning, soaking wet and freezing cold, but alive. That was my bottom.

I was still certain it was possible to trade these markets successfully. There is far to much evidence to support it and I would never be so obtuse as to argue in opposition. I simply came to the simple realization that we are all NOT created equal, nor do we all have the same capacity for successes and failures in different ventures in this life.

I ultimately realized the fact that maybe I had overcomplicated a more simplistic business. That being said it is quite a feat "unlearning" everything. Armed with the knowledge I had nothing to lose I resolved to cut out as much as possible to create a trading system that was simplistic, profitable, and viable. With what i had been through the concepts of losing money being the worst thing that could happen simply disappeared and I started to see profit in my trading.

Then more profits, and MORE profits. To my astonishment in less than 12 months I reached a peak watermark in my finances for life. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about my health or my relationships. I have never met anyone else and feel as though I have truly sacrificed my true soulmate for my fiscal successes. My children dont want to see me as Im afraid I destroyed those relationships too in their formative years in my unrelenting pursuit of success in trading.

All this being said, I have accepted my life where it is. I am listening more than ever to my "inner-self" and going along with the type of life that I feel is more in alignment with who I want to show up as in life. I opened up a small training studio and have rekindled my passion for helping others through fitness.

The vast majority of traders are extremely introverted and highly analytical. While I am certainly the latter, I am by no means the former. Trading is a lonely business. Traders do not really give anything meaningful back to society in the way that doctors, engineers, teachers, and any other more humanitarian type career does. I personally always had a difficult time with that aspect. As a personal trainer by trade I have always loved the aspect of helping people look better, feel more youthful, and improve the quality of an individuals life . It is a different sort of gratification than watching the GBP/JPY go +50 pips in profit. I am sure we have all heard of and possibly lived(I know i have) through a personal relationship falling apart due to the demands of the financial markets. It, by the very nature, breeds isolation from the rest of society.

Knowing who we are from what we are not is an integral part of our lessons in this world. Once you do know who and what you are it is wise to act in accordance to it.

Make certain the cost of what you want to do with this business is what you are prepared to bear


Wulf

Epic story; huge thanks for sharing.

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  #233 (permalink)
milpitas, ca, usa
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradestation
Broker: Tradestation, Ameritrade
Trading: ES, Gold, 10 Yr
 
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haraj View Post
high rahul hope u r doing good in trading....

any tricks u know to come out of stress(suffered thru huge continuous dd)?

thanks
happy trading

There are few things you may want to figure out to address the stress and learn from the experience

Does these draw downs resulted from trades that where taken as per your trading plan ?. IF yes , then you may want to revisit the trading plan and calculate the expectancy, (win / loss ratio and risk reward ratio ).

If the trades where taken outside the plan, then you have some real work to do with managing discomforts ( greed, fear etc ), improving discipline , preparation and focus. Knowing the probability of your trading system and having confidence in it is an integral part of trading psychology. IF you tend to look for new methods, systems, trading rooms , news letters and indicators often is a clear sign of lack of having a trading system or the lack of confidence in the one you have.

As for stress from draw down , use it as an opportunity to learn your weakness and improve your trading system and plan as required. There are no mistakes unless you fail to learn and improve from it.

Stress is mind created. One simple technique I use is to separate thought from content / story behind the thought. For e.g imagine you have 1 million $ in your account, really see the amount in your minds eye. You may notice other thoughts associated with this one, like buying a car you always wanted or house or what ever. This is the story / content of that thought. IF you observe the thought of huge dd, you may observe the content / story associated with it, in the form of disappointment from your family or other stuff. Story or content of the thought is the part that cause you stress or discomfort. Developing this awareness and separate the thought from content / story is a form of mindfulness practice as this will awaken the observer. This is a simple technique I learned during mindfulness practice.

Important thing is not to get stressed about the stress itself. From what you wrote, I can see that you are worried about the stress itself. This is another way to manufacture stress. Stress is nothing but your body's way of letting you know that there is some sort of imbalance. IF you learn to use it properly, stress gives you an opportunity to be aware of the discomfort and release any negative energy associated with the emotion itself. If you react unconsciously using an automatic pattern, stress will do more harm. Awareness is the key ,learn not to fight stress but to use it to release the energy form the emotion itself. Few techniques are mentioned in this forum itself ( Sedona Method, Emotion Code, Techniques by Dr David Hawkins etc ). Most will suggest to refrain from suppressing or expressing the emotion but to accept and welcome it, be with it until you feel the feeling is gone. Try it, it works.

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  #234 (permalink)
Portland Oregon
 
 
Posts: 2 since Jan 2015
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This thread has been amazing.

There are so many good posts. I'm just starting out as a trader and only have 2-3 years of experience and no profitable track record.

The perspectives on here are really valuable.

Thanks everyone.

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  #235 (permalink)
San Tan Valley, AZ/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
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Broker: IB, Tallinex, & 10 others.
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FABRICATORX View Post
I'm glad I came back.

I started out, while in the middle of my education program, and couldn't focus on both. I quit trading because I fit the description of someone who should have quit.

I've finished my program, I work a stable job that supports me and my family, and am seeking the greater challenge.

I don't need the money, as I could retire five times over. Something I read in this thread defined my desires for me: risk management, human psychology, and strategy implementation.

They aren't different, but rather they are limbs of what constitutes trading.

Anyways, I'm an amateur, and look forward to losing all my money

So I guess I'm on my third cycle; I joined in June of 2013, that post quote was from November 2014. It's now July of 2015.

What's changed for me this time, is I'm not doing it for money, and I'm not doing it for myself. I feel healthier this way.

Also, I now have the support of my bride. This means a lot.

I spent my time studying human nature, and general psychology. I didn't know this would lead me back into trading, but it did.

Anyways, to quote Simon Sinek, “People don't buy what you do; they buy why you do it. And what you do simply proves what you believe”.

I was trying to use trading as my "what" I want to do...without a clear reason why I should do it. I didn't want money (well, above a comfortable yet humble lifestyle) and I didn't want prestige. I found that my reason is philanthropy. I want to serve people.

As soon as I figured that out, everything started locking into place. I began focusing on the trading itself, and less on the byproduct of trading, which is $$$.

-Jimmy
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  #236 (permalink)
Los Angeles, CA/USA
 
Experience: Beginner
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Big Mike View Post
So David let me ask a blunt question... hope you don't mind or take offense... why do you believe trading is right for you?

OK let me back up to be fair. Do you believe that anyone can be profitable at trading? Or do you believe that some people are not cut out for it? Some believe any skill can be learned, others believe that there are some things they should accept are not their strong suits and move on.

Mike

I saw this question and it is thought provoking so I will answer it.

I believe anybody can be profitable at trading granted they are willing to examine themselves and figure out what it is about their mindset and current skillset that is helping and hindering them. We promote those things that help us such as a good mind for having many strategies on-hand at once or the ability to deal with fear and act in uncertain situations and we either find ways around or change those skills that hinder us such as ease to anger and make "revenge" trades or being stubborn thinking 'this time is different' and not following our rules. Granted, few people are willing to spend the time to look at themselves so introspectively but those that are able I believe already have an edge... because if they understand what makes them act and react, then they can be more mindful of what they are feeling as they look at the market and can try to gauge the "why's" of market movement beyond the "what".

I also do believe any skilled can be learned but only if one has the passion and will to want to learn them. Learning anything, whether it be a sport, instrument, or game not only takes a flexible mind but more importantly, the will and passion and reason to push through all the pain and agony it takes to learn that skill. If we are also constantly focusing on the reasons motivating us, then we can have the emotional and psychological fortitude to push through the many challenges that will cripple us and make us want to quit.

I do believe that a person who's 6 foot 5 inches is going to play better basketball than a person who's 5 foot 11 inches but only given that both of them have equal amounts of skill.

Given a trading environment where 90% are losing proving to us that many who are trading are not doing well, if we can somehow elevate ourselves above the conventional playing field, we will be successful. And I believe the way to elevate ourselves is not a holy grail system or any one method or skill but doing all the little things like limiting those mistakes that we are lucky enough to discover that are taking from us time and time again that we've seen if we just don't do those things, we will be okay like... following our rules to the tee.

If we are not able to look at ourselves in the mirror at the end of the trading day, understand our actions and make strides to correct those things that we do that causes us consternation, we will fail.

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  #237 (permalink)
Los Angeles, CA/USA
 
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Big Mike View Post
Does this person have any business trading?

- Has been trading for 2 years, and has lost 50K out of his kids college fund
- Has paid over 20K in "courses" and "trading rooms" for "mentorships" and "systems"
- Hasn't told his wife or kids the extent of his losses

Mike

He's only been doing it for 2 years. The fact that even with a 50K loss that he is still willing to spend 20k more to pursue some kind of trading knowledge may show that he has strong intent but unless he discovers that it's not so much his trading system but his trading psychology and examining himself and understanding that many of the things he does (such as lying to his wife and kids) that are the cause of his losses, he will lose but he won't know that he needs to quit until he's lost all of his kids' college fund.

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  #238 (permalink)
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
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guys just my 2c's for what it's worth...as have not been very successful at ES due to past habits, but i know what is wrong in my patterns. overall trading has been fine...but ES is the passion.

in all successful ventures in life & so with trading somewhere along the way comes integrity, honesty and tremendous skill which needs up-dation at regular intervals . w/o that any and all success is meaningless or maybe fleeting as may not be repeatable weather a system or otherwise.

anyways... trading is just another avenue...what we discussing here is e-trading...but trading at it's heart comes in many forms...scrap steel/sugar/etc...etc which can be in physical trades or e-trades. One needs to be good at the art else there are sharks waiting in the waters. One of the sharks maybe one's own self when we talking about trading as discussed here.

whatever one pursues....weather it's trading or something else....when one gets proficient at it...and when it becomes one's second nature there is a sudden twist which cannot be explained but experienced. If one reflect back at all things we are good in ...you will see its 2nd nature. many good quotes or mentors will talk on 2nd nature and i strongly believe one can be successful with a system/without a system if trading is 2nd nature.

anyways here's a small snippet into the mind by the Dr and is applicable to any vocation not just trading TraderFeed: Self-Coaching and The Sound Training of Traders

anyways...only the best to all...and may yr drmz play out

cheers
s

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  #239 (permalink)
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TraderEnlight View Post
He's only been doing it for 2 years. The fact that even with a 50K loss that he is still willing to spend 20k more to pursue some kind of trading knowledge may show that he has strong intent but unless he discovers that it's not so much his trading system but his trading psychology and examining himself and understanding that many of the things he does (such as lying to his wife and kids) that are the cause of his losses, he will lose but he won't know that he needs to quit until he's lost all of his kids' college fund.



If someone made $30.00 per day, is this considered a successful trader?

$30.00 per day multiplied by 240 trading days = $7,200.00 extra revenue per year.

In the US, I know people who pay less for their mortgage, pay less to feed a four (4) member family, or covers car payments, insurance, cell phone etc...

My point being is the focus should always be in small trades to extract small amounts from the market, once this is accomplished then move methodically into a space which is still small and returning small amounts.....You do not need to be a PRO GUNSLINGER coming off the bench....One must gain insight and knowledge from your experience trading very small amounts....become a great analyst by understanding what losing positions can tell you about your methods and logical process.

I started out trading an account funded with $50.00 dollars, the account grew, and I learned a lot about how to analyze data and apply that information into a reasonable trading plan.

"Trade the Plan and Plan the Trade" By the way, that is my quote of the day.

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  #240 (permalink)
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gregoryalexandr View Post
If someone made $30.00 per day, is this considered a successful trader?

$30.00 per day multiplied by 240 trading days = $7,200.00 extra revenue per year.

No. At absolute best, that person simply has a hobby, a hobby that with 100% certainty costs him a lot of money and time every year.

Mike

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  #241 (permalink)
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I disagree, the interpretation is based upon your experiences and environment. People, in general would take 7200.00 per year as a hobby, this can translate as a jump off point for people as they gain confidence, focus and start understanding the market, micro/macro relationships, analysis, risk management etc.

I understand the question quite well and its rigged but given the fact a person is 70K in the whole, 7 times of 10, this person will make the wrong decision. So, you can tell them to quite but 8 out of 10 will ignore taking advice which limits their loses. The psychology regarding lose is GRANDER and tells them, you are no good and failed, so instead of reflecting on their pass behaviour, they become motivated by another emotion.

Don't get back up and try this again. Human Psychology....Honestly, this sounds like TV character who is a crazy guy and tells people about stocks and their company, he lose all his trading capital, mortgage his home, lose money and then look at what happened....He is making a few bucks and still does not trade.

Human Psychology....amazing....knock me down and Ill get back up and find money which is not mine to spend.

He only took your advice after he realized his trading, his character was to chaotic to trade.

Essentially, I agree with your hard core stance but taken into account the other person psychology. After all, this is psychology forum so lets get deep into the character and make a chump a champ.....Plan the Trade, Trade the Plan...

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  #242 (permalink)
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gregoryalexandr View Post
Plan the Trade, Trade the Plan...

LOL.

You need to spend more time reading what has already been written on futures.io (formerly BMT), watching the webinars, reading the threads where traders make money every day (real money, 5 figures, not $30 dollars) and less time telling me I am wrong , less time defending your position out of ignorance, and less time following axioms from wanna be vendor-traders like "plan the trade, trade the plan" or reading books written a decade ago or more that have absolute no bearing on reality of this market.

My reply to you is only to help you, to get you to wake up and snap out of the dream world. If you don't take the time to appreciate the reply, or take the time to read what was already written, then there is no helping you.

Mike

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  #243 (permalink)
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If you and your family are suffering and you are not earning money then give up. it doesn't matter how much time you have put into it.

trading is one of the most difficult things to become profitable.
If you studied for a law degree you would expect to have no income for many years until you became successful.
Think of Trading as more difficult and get out before you lose your house.

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  #244 (permalink)
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I am a second generation trader whose only source of income is trading, well, besides other firms we allocate our funds at end of year.

Is the person who panhandles have greater fortune or less then corporate executive? (This is about perception)

A story from my experiences in Minnesota. I use to shop at a grocery store (LUNDS) which was technological advance for the time (1995) and the selection of sea food was outstanding. The residential real estate in the surrounding area started at $300,000 and usually one would see BMW's, and other imports in the drive ways...

Coming from the airport one day, I decided to pick up some groceries at LUNDS, as I drove into the parking lot I realized the store was not open any longer, CLOSED was written across the doors.

After some months I ran into the owner Rick Lund and asked him why that location closed. He replied, their initial analysis did not take into consideration people extending their finances for houses, cars etc...and no budget to eat well. What a lesson to be learned, I can eat hot dogs and pay my mortgage but at least I will look good driving down the highway....Who is really fooling who? A sad story but true. (This is about people who want to live better, but in reality, would give up anything for their perception and the image they project)

Am I in the psychology and money management section of futures.io (formerly BMT) Forum....I really do appreciate your interviews...this is what brought me....Oh, yes and the extensive coverage of Sierra Charts. Thank you for your reply, Mr. Mike and taking time from your busy schedule to do so.

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  #245 (permalink)
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Hi,
I would like to share my thoughts too. I'm trying to be a trader since more tan two years, so far no success. I've gone back and forth and I still have hundreds of new things and concepts and ideas to try. All of them look like the real good one but all of them become unprofitable again and again. I have'nt lost a lot of money because after the first rush of my first months I decided just papertrade, if I can't win papermoney there's nothing to do. But I certainly invest a big deal of my efforts, time and energy.

To me trading looks much more difficult tan being a doctor, or an architect. Why? Simply because you have to find your way, learn by yourself (in my humble opinión). If you want to run a new business there are business schools. You can learn how to be a doctor on University. Most of the medecin books are worth to read (I guess), but regarding trading, could we say the same? Where will you learn the rules of trading? Well, I'm just geting pieces of new concepts here and there, once I really understand them I see them overlap in some cases, which is good because they confirm to each other. But you have to find your way because I'm afraid there isn't any angel willing to show you the holy grail not even the straight path to success. But that's Ok for me, I guess this is the game and doesn't look that bad.

Coming back to the original question. When is it time to give up? I see there are no conclusions and that's something I wonder. After how many years of trying and/or losing money should you just give up? Again no rules here either...

Well, I recently discovered this forum and it's really interesting to follow you guys. A lot to learn from most of you and that's a path to follow.

Bye
Enric

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  #246 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
LOL.

You need to spend more time reading what has already been written on futures.io (formerly BMT), watching the webinars, reading the threads where traders make money every day (real money, 5 figures, not $30 dollars) and less time telling me I am wrong , less time defending your position out of ignorance, and less time following axioms from wanna be vendor-traders like "plan the trade, trade the plan" or reading books written a decade ago or more that have absolute no bearing on reality of this market.

My reply to you is only to help you, to get you to wake up and snap out of the dream world. If you don't take the time to appreciate the reply, or take the time to read what was already written, then there is no helping you.

Mike

Interesting and more-so is your ironic sense of self....I am not here seeking your help of any other persons help....I have traded a long time and have been through many more experiences than most people.....I can say this....I have not lose money to the markets for the last 15 years, I think that pre-date your website and in terms of what you may think is REAL MONEY may be a simple sum my company makes daily....Mike, you need to be a little more humble in your approach....you need to do your homework when your use to speaking to people who think your here to help them instead of being condescending in tone.

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  #247 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
No. At absolute best, that person simply has a hobby, a hobby that with 100% certainty costs him a lot of money and time every year.

Mike

From my experience, people who have become very successful have always thought of taking their hobby and making it their full time career. Who wouldn't want to do that? Making their hobby into a stream of income....Something like BMT into Futures.io, a hobby, can we call it that?

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  #248 (permalink)
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john3318 View Post
This thread has been amazing.

There are so many good posts. I'm just starting out as a trader and only have 2-3 years of experience and no profitable track record.

The perspectives on here are really valuable.

Thanks everyone.

Here is another excellent thread that you should read and I would recommend for everyone.


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  #249 (permalink)
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Here is the Paul Tudor Jones failure speech:

Paul Tudor Jones Failure Speech – June 2009

Everyone fails in trading in the beginning. I was a dismal failure for two years as I went through the beginning and chartist trading cycles. Made every mistake in the book. Over trading, over leveraging, system hopping, poor money management, poor discipline, unseriousness. Suffered from information overload. I was clueless as to the best trading questions to ask. I was searching for the holy grail tweaking moving averages and stochastic combinations. The holy grail does exist, it just isn’t found with technical indicators.

You shouldn’t have any fear of failure. You shouldn’t wish it to happen. You always prepare for success. But if failure does happen, whether big or small, then you live and learn.

It makes you stronger.

For once you fail and hit rock bottom, then you survive and the inevitable recovery starts, you start to eventually think that it wasn’t that bad after all.


A GREAT VIDEO to describe the process of mental toughness and performance based activity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCPgvTRftZg

Do you feed a fragile ego and quit- Or do you believe effort and delayed gratification will
get you to your goal??
Be aware of your emotions Work with them- (They are the fuel to propel your action in the NOW)
Fail going 100%
Get Tough

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Big Mike View Post
I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

....

Great stuff. I would add:
  • Not understanding the auction (what participants are motivated to do)
  • Not having a clear trade management scheme (what do I do once the trade is on?)
  • Not letting trades work themselves out (micro-managing yourself out of trades only to see them go as planned once you are out)
  • Not setting goals for what it is you will focus on this week
  • Not measuring how you did versus your goal and adjusting
  • Not understanding the voice in your head when you are stressed

Those are just a few I have dealt with at my prop shop and during my exposure to online traders.

So much to say on this subject, because it is really a big one and I have seen so many who want to be traders come and go. I will get caught up and contribute where I can.

Cheers!
FT71

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gregoryalexandr View Post
From my experience, people who have become very successful have always thought of taking their hobby and making it their full time career. Who wouldn't want to do that? Making their hobby into a stream of income....Something like BMT into Futures.io, a hobby, can we call it that?

I'm not sure about the context with which you are using the word "hobby". I can assure you that trading cannot be seen as a hobby. It may be something that you are passionate about, but it is definitely a hobby. Trading is a high performance career. It is a business in a highly competitive and fast-paced industry.

Now, don't get me wrong. Passion and hobby are not the same thing. I don't pursue my passions as a way to support my lifestyle. There are many aspiring and passionate actors, singers, artists, interior designers, architects and others out there. But if your passion is not something that is in demand and that society is willing to pay you for, then find another career.

On the other hand, pursuing a career WITH a passion is a great way to go. You have to be passionate about trading. It is demanding of our time, energy, emotions and funds. However, things that we are passionate about are not necessarily a hobby. We choose what we want to be passionate about. Just don't make trading into a hobby.

Cheers,
FT71

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  #252 (permalink)
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Hello everybody,

Very important his previous post.

I believe the big problem too is the people want to make money very faster. It´s a big mistake. The psychology is very important, many people fail at this point. Bye...





Big Mike View Post
BTW, I should complete that by saying that while willpower alone is not enough to be profitable, it is a prerequisite. You cannot succeed without it.

Some people think that their willpower to succeed is their edge, because they will make this work no matter what. I view that as more of a prerequisite than an advantage over the other professional traders.

It is always helpful to know who you are trading against and see how you compare.

Mike


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  #253 (permalink)
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There is also one very important point - choose RIGHT market for YOU.Not the most liquid,not the most popular - but that RIGHT one.The one who is not too big,the one who has strong trend's and which let you FEEL it.Most of people start with ES/YM/NQ or some Forex one's - and that it's like a financial suicide even if you are not undercapitalized.Beginers with no knowledge who try to go into the most competitive market in the world...


When is time to give up and be sure that this is not for you ? Stricle just when you feel bad after logging to trading account...

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  #254 (permalink)
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I’ve been thinking about the thread since I saw it a few months ago. Looking back at my 6+ years’ experience and realising I haven’t yet been able to succeed, I thought whether it was time for me to give up too, but …

I have come a very long way from perceiving that success in trading is down to putting a few indicators with fancy names on a chart and becoming a billionaire in a year, taking large loans and almost losing everything with one click of the mouse, to studying the internals of markets, the volume profile, what market participants are doing, where the value is, why and how effectively the market participants defend a certain price level, where the sellers or buyers are trapped, where spoofing occurs and why, etc. etc.
I.e through trial and error I have slowly realised that trading requires you to understand the market and I don’t even mention getting your head in the right state. At a very primitive level you have to be able to understand why at a local farmers’ market tomatoes can cost 3 pounds per kilo in the morning, 2.30 at the peak time and 1.50 before close. You have to understand why all vendors sell at around the same price, and why one re-seller may want to park at the market in a huge empty truck, but announce to all sellers the truck is full with tomatoes.

Now, if I continued with my previous approach of looking for a holy grail indicator, then yes, I should go do something else. As an example, my friend’s brother has been trying to trade FTSE100 for a few years. According to him, he was very close to success, he had his “secret” strategy of trading during market open. Then I found out he lost around 150000 British pounds so far (and that’s what he said he lost, the amount is probably even higher than that). The guy’s wife doesn’t know it, the guy’s parents don’t know it, the guy is b**ls deep in debt and he still thinks he is close to success. Clearly he should stop trading immediately, check into his nearest hospital and get his head removed from his anus.

I do strongly believe that it is possible to learn anything and our brain is like a muscle that requires stimulation in order to learn a skill. Coupled with our desire to learn and to put in the hours needed to acquire one skill or the other, it is possible to become very proficient in many fields. Trading is similar, but requires an approach that is radically different to studying exact science, because contrary to what many trading courses are teaching, it is anything but the exact science. Although it is based on the same foundations – theory and practice – I think the ratio of practice required in trading is much higher than theory. With this ratio it is much closer to art - you can spend a week learning the technique, then spend 10 years developing your vision and being able to gain from it.
And that’s where I think the problem lies for many people who start trading (including myself a few years back), they buy a book with a few carefully chosen charts, leading them to believe that memorising a bunch of candlestick patterns or putting a line on the chart is going to bring them success in a year. They then backtest for a month, put their life savings together, setup a highly leveraged account and…go bust. And unfortunately the vast majority of books and courses out there are fuelling that, putting new traders in this perpetual cycle of searching for an indicator, switching systems, then losing money. Unless some traders re-think their approach to trading, they will be better off to do something else.

So, again, it depends on how you approach trading. As someone said on this forum, if you want to gamble, go to a casino, at least you will get some nice drinks and have some nice time playing.

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  #255 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

For every good trader out there, there are 100 more who think they can just copy someone else's method and start making money or join some trading room or download some expensive set of indicators, and be profitable.

Most of these guys have completely unrealistic expectations. They expect to take $10,000 and turn it into $100,000 at the end of the year, for example, even though they have no track record of performance or gains.

These people have no plan. They constantly blame their computer, their trading platform, their broker, their wife, their kids for missing trades or mistakes during a trade. They have no idea what to focus on or where to start.

And worse, most of them are unwilling to do the work. Yes, there are people for which that does not apply who are truly trying their best. But they are few and far between. Most people that are struggling aren't even willing to maintain a journal. Most people aren't willing to set realistic expectations. Most people aren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

On top of that, most of these guys aren't in a position in their life to even give trading a chance. Examples would be that they just lost their job. That is the worse time to start trading. Other examples would be that they have a job but no real savings, no money to burn in trading education expenses (and I don't mean from a trading room or buying a product). Worse still, many of these guys have no support from their wife or girlfriend because as you can imagine, they are losing money and also spending a lot of "free time" with trading instead of with their loved ones or kids. This is an impossible situation to put yourself in and expect good results.

So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on.

In fact, a lot of times my advice to these guys is to move on. Stop trading. Let's be real, if you are undercapitalized, unwilling to do the real work, and have no support from your family -- you aren't in a position to be a good trader.

But I also have to be honest, some times when I tell someone to stop trading, what I am really wanting them to do is come back and tell me NO, they will not stop, they are going to make it work. I mean if you really want this, then fight for it. But as I've said countless times before -- willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable.

We know that most people "give up" once they blow all or a significant portion of their initial deposit at a broker. This usually happens in less than 90 days according to brokers I've talked to. Most of these people aren't a part of any trading forum, and those that are, most of them are not participating, do not have a journal, have not taken time to ask questions or formulate a plan, etc. Again let's be honest: if anyone had taken the time to formulate a plan and prepare, they would not have allowed themselves to blow an account in 90 days.

For the rest, the ones that are members of futures.io (formerly BMT), I find that the overwhelming (close to 100%) of people that are struggling are the ones that have zero posts. I've come to look at this as an important metric. The ones that are uninvolved in the forum, for whatever reason, are going to be at a big disadvantage in my opinion. They lack a support network but also lack the benefit of accountability which is so critically important.

I've also found that these struggling traders are ones that haven't participated in any webinars. So that means they are unwilling to put in the time. They spend all their time, instead, on downloading indicators or searching for a new trading room to call trades.

OK so let me end by putting this out there... when is it the appropriate time to give up? Let's be honest, not everyone is cut out for trading. In fact, if we are honest, very few are. So it's cruel to string some of these guys along, it would be better for them to help them identify early on they don't have what it takes and they should move on.

Mike

I'm not a newbie... but I print this post and attacked on the wall near my monitor .

Not only trading rules, life's course rules...

Thanks BM

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  #256 (permalink)
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Today I had a bad day.

I guess, for most people who trade, having a bad day means losing a significant amount of money. For me it means going against what I had set myself to do, i.e. breaking my own rules.

The loss was laughable (120 Euros), but what did it for me was the broken principle of getting back into a trade for a 3rd time when I had said 'enough' less than 5 mins earlier.

Sure, I had seen all the signals I wanted to see before entering again, and sure, this latest trade had got me back to break-even (even slightly profitable), but there was that uneasy feeling of having broken the rules that really turned a relatively okay day into a bad one.

It's days like these that lead me to confess about my sins into a thread called 'time to give up'. Freudian slip? Whoops.

Tomorrow is another day...

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  #257 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I don't want to have any vendor-related discussion here in this thread about the vendor who produced this video, but this is from last year and is an interesting watch for those who haven't seen it.



Does this video speak to you about why you are a trader?

Mike

Not at all. The video sounds as cheesy as the videos of the American corporation I used to work for (sorry).

What resonated with me about trading was a comment by a guy in another forum. This is an excerpt


Quoting 
I am a full time independent trader and it is the hardest most miserable job there is. There are weeks where im up, and weeks where i am down. looking back i make more than i lose and the weeks where i am up are great. last week i traded all week and ended up at a loss of over $400. i literally would've been better off financially if i sat in front of the sofa watching tv then trying to trade the markets from 8 - 5 every day. How many of you are willing to work for free some weeks or at a loss? Because unless you are lucky to get a job in a bank thats what you'll end up doing.

To be a trader you need 2 things

1. A very high threshold to pain
2. the willingness to work for free while you learn this business. (Which will take most up to 2 years. if you're really good you can do it in 1.)

you really believe you can do it in under a year? congrats to being the 95%.


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Cerberus View Post
today's traderbites - listen to it, several times maybe, to make it sink in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWnpqYfEksc


first 9 minutes are the daily news/VolPro analysis/prep. For the motivational
part only, start at Min 9 - Really good stuff

Cer

Thanks @Cerberus for posting the link, and thanks @FuturesTrader71 for what you said in the video and I already knew but had forgotten today.

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  #259 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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xplorer;549029I
am a full time independent trader and it is the hardest most miserable job there is. There are weeks where im up, and weeks where i am down. looking back i make more than i lose and the weeks where i am up are great. last week i traded all week and ended up at a loss of over $400. i literally would've been better off financially if i sat in front of the sofa watching tv then trying to trade the markets from 8 - 5 every day. How many of you are willing to work for free some weeks or at a loss? Because unless you are lucky to get a job in a bank thats what you'll end up doing.

To be a trader you need 2 things

1. A very high threshold to pain
2. the willingness to work for free while you learn this business. (Which will take most up to 2 years. if you're really good you can do it in 1.)

you really believe you can do it in under a year? congrats to being the 95%.

What a terrible, sad and pathetic way to live. And if this is what you hold in your mind, neither you nor this trader will make it long term. Guaranteed.

My experience is the exact opposite. I love what I do, it is deeply fulfilling and I wouldn't 'trade' it for anything.

I have a very low joy threshold, and I am willing to enjoy all experiences.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." - Milton
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Anagami View Post
What a terrible, sad and pathetic way to live. And if this is what you hold in your mind, neither you nor this trader will make it long term. Guaranteed.

My experience is the exact opposite. I love what I do, it is deeply fulfilling and I wouldn't 'trade' it for anything.

I have a very low joy threshold, and I am willing to enjoy all experiences.

Thanks Anagami, although that is your opinion and you're entitled to it.

That statement rings true about the nature of learning to trade and the difficulties along the way - better hear sobering statements about that than to hear tough, macho-style slogans on how good is to be a trader. To many successful traders - in my opinion - the former sentiment would also ring truer.

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mk77ch View Post
From my personal experience i can say that most of the problems and stress comes from how you evaluate success.
When you measure success in trading on successful trades that hit your target, you end up as a playball of the market.

The best you can do as a trader is to execute according to your plan and stick to your rules.
You will never know with certainty if a setup you trade will first hit your stop or your target.
The profitabilty of your trading is based on the method you are trading and how well you stick to your plan and your rules.

There will be days on a regular basis where the market will not be in tune with your trading method. The best you can do is to realize this and to halt your trading for that day or at least for a few hours before your daily loss limit is reached.
There is nothing else you can do! If you get in financial or personal trouble on such days you dont have a plan.

Measure the day on how well you executed your trades and sticked to your plan and rules.
This is the only thing you have an influence on and what should make the difference between a good and a bad trading day for you.

If your daily loss limit or win target is reached, stop trading and be ready for another day.
Dont trade 24 hours a day, define one or two time window(s) and go for quality (focus) instead of quantity.

Optimize everything you can. The place you trade from, your charts, everything you have an influence on and what does have an influence on you. Make yourself aware of the things you can change to optimize and the things you cant.

Traders without a solid plan, rules and properly defined daily win targets and loss limits are prone to exhaust them self and end up depressed and frustrated.

If you experience hurdles or problems while executing your plan, (and you will) stay positive and try to overcome them in small steps. Dont be to hard to yourself, successful trading is hard to learn and will take time, energy and effort.
Trading for a living is a marathon and not a sprint! Be happy and proud for every small step you take.

If you are executing according to your plan and dont make money over a big enough sample of trades you are maybe trading a method which has no edge in the market. Evaluate, test and learn.

Trading is the most honest and pure thing i can think of. You make a mistake, you pay. nobody other to blame than yourself. Trading can teach you a lot of valuable skills and will show your weakness without mercy. Learn to see this as a value and enjoy it!

i hope this helps anybody

cheers,
mike

Thank you mike, what you wrote resonates with me. As I said having a bad day for me translates into not sticking to my own rules, i.e. falling into the mental trap of 'what if'. A loss is usually not a problem provided it was part of the accepted risk.

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xplorer View Post
Thanks Anagami, although that is your opinion and you're entitled to it.

That statement rings true about the nature of learning to trade and the difficulties along the way - better hear sobering statements about that than to hear tough, macho-style slogans on how good is to be a trader. To many successful traders - in my opinion - the former sentiment would also ring truer.

I've been trading for 10 years, and can tell you that you cannot get to success from suffering, pessimism, powerlessness, and pain. I never would have become a millionaire thinking and feeling that way, for that is a loser vibe. But you are welcome to beat your head against the wall if you prefer. Up to you.

And for the record, I am not advocating the view that trading is 'easy'. It certainly isn't. But it does not have to be filled with negative emotions as you showcase.

The fact that you speak of pain as a necessary component shows that you have not come to terms with the most basic task that a trader faces: accepting the risk and the uncertainty of each individual trade.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." - Milton
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Anagami View Post
I've been trading for 10 years, and [...]

Here it comes...

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  #264 (permalink)
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xplorer View Post
Thank you mike, what you wrote resonates with me. As I said having a bad day for me translates into not sticking to my own rules, i.e. falling into the mental trap of 'what if'. A loss is usually not a problem provided it was part of the accepted risk.

thank you, i deleted my post after i realized the thread itself is about when to stop trading.
but i am happy now it lives on at least as a quote because it took quite some time to write

as for your initial post, yes, not sticking to the rules is what happens absolutely every trader from time to time.
making a mistake and recognise it as such is important. but i think more important is to turn such things into something positive like a chance to learn and a chance to think about a way to prevent unwanted behaviour for the future.

for me personally it helps to write down those situations in a separate column in my trading log. i then see it when i write it down and each of the following days it reminds me to not break my rules.
during my trading session i often use that quote from mike bellafiore: "One good trade" to remind myself to only take valid setups.

another thing that from time to time comes to my mind is that after the trading session i will enable the "Plot executions" in ninjatrader to show the trades i have made and what i want to see there are good trades.

but this is a progress and we are human. think positive and let some room for mistakes. we learn from failure, not from success or like Salvador Dali once said: “Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it.”

cheers,
mike

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mk77ch View Post
thank you, i deleted my post after i realized the thread itself is about when to stop trading.
but i am happy now it lives on at least as a quote because it took quite some time to write

as for your initial post, yes, not sticking to the rules is what happens absolutely every trader from time to time.
making a mistake and recognise it as such is important. but i think more important is to turn such things into something positive like a chance to learn and a chance to think about a way to prevent unwanted behaviour for the future.

for me personally it helps to write down those situations in a separate column in my trading log. i then see it when i write it down and each of the following days it reminds me to not break my rules.
during my trading session i often use that quote from mike bellafiore: "One good trade" to remind myself to only take valid setups.

another thing that from time to time comes to my mind is that after the trading session i will enable the "Plot executions" in ninjatrader to show the trades i have made and what i want to see there are good trades.

but this is a progress and we are human. think positive and let some room for mistakes. we learn from failure, not from success or like Salvador Dali once said: “Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it.”

cheers,
mike


agreed - thanks mike

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  #266 (permalink)
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I got through all 27 pages. When trading/speculation is discussed here and everywhere else, it always ends up being a touchy feeling thing. Discipline, know yourself, patience, honesty, managing your feelings, reasonable expectations, adequate capitalization, to to rank success, we are our worst enemy .....

I think that psycho-babble is just used to detract us from the fact that nothing works worth a damn. And I'm the responsible because I send the shysters $$$.

On the other hand, NOW is the best time ever because us mass of unwashed retail traders can practice in SIM.

Also so far I after 28 years I'm down about 35K. Sound bad huh? Before I got into trading, a denny's waitress (she still had on her waitress uniform) ran a red light because her husband was late for his VA hospital appointment. She totalled out my porsche for $5000 well it was a 914. And I had a collapsed lung, internal bleeding, and a whole shit load of broken ribs, cost was $25K.

So disaster can come out of nowhere.

I gotta joke: In 1994 I made a live hog trade. It was based on the fact that live hogs never went up 4 days in a row or down 3 days in a row, $100 each day unless the there was a crop report or cold storage report. The trade was supposed to be enter MOC, and exit tomorrow's MOC. The market went limit down on me!! I held and added to the account to meet margin for 3 months. I sold in January right at the bottom. Lost $2000 on a trade that never made more than $300. So no more trading for tyler durden!!!

Then I got on with this semiconductor company, participated in their stock purchase program. How could I lose? Well before the earnings release the shit bag CEO announced they were writing off inventory. The stock dropped like a turd. I lost $20,000 in less than a day. The CFO CEO and founder got busted for insider trading.

Punch line is now I don't feel so bad about losing $2000 on the live hog trade. (they were called live hogs back then)

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After perusing some of the posts in here, I'm not even sure I have any business being here at all. I'm brand new, lost, and only working on a demo with a friend right now trading futures only. Been doing okay so far, but I'm sure things will change when real money is involved.

I need to find some really elementary stuff in this forum to just get myself rolling along. I'm a quick study, but I need the information fed from a straw rather than a firehose at first. Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

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  #268 (permalink)
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amttrader View Post
After perusing some of the posts in here, I'm not even sure I have any business being here at all. I'm brand new, lost, and only working on a demo with a friend right now trading futures only. Been doing okay so far, but I'm sure things will change when real money is involved.

I need to find some really elementary stuff in this forum to just get myself rolling along. I'm a quick study, but I need the information fed from a straw rather than a firehose at first. Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

If you are doing good with paper money you are in the good track. You won't find here the manual of the perfect trader (since this manual do not exist, and never believe those who want to sell you one) but if you ask the good questions you will have some answers that will help you make some progress.

Good trading.

R.I.P. Olivier Terrier (aka "Okina"), 1969-2016.
Please visit this thread for more information.
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the coin hunter
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amttrader View Post
... Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

BigMike said watch all webinars first.

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  #270 (permalink)
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maybe with some work and perseverance its possible

the road might not be easy..... . But if its something one wants...its possible.

cheers and wish only the best

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"Optimize everything you can. The place you trade from, your charts, everything you have an influence on and what does have an influence on you. Make yourself aware of the things you can change to optimize and the things you cant."

Larry Williams in "Long term secrets to short term trading" says to beware of over optimization. Over optimization is like having a pure breed pedigree dog. Generally they are snippy and short.

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amttrader View Post
Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

Some good advice is given already eg. by @cory and @paps.
But paper trading is not real money trading. Pulling the trigger is much different.
Read the psychology threads here in detail and start with a low budget investment
on your preferred instrument. See the results of your trades on the real money side
and compare it with the paper results you had in the past.

Good trades
GFIs1

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Market Chamois
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amttrader View Post
After perusing some of the posts in here, I'm not even sure I have any business being here at all. I'm brand new, lost, and only working on a demo with a friend right now trading futures only. Been doing okay so far, but I'm sure things will change when real money is involved.

I need to find some really elementary stuff in this forum to just get myself rolling along. I'm a quick study, but I need the information fed from a straw rather than a firehose at first. Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

Start with these guys please.....

Mark Douglas (may he R.I.P)

Beliefs Management Institute inc. - with Paula T. Webb & Mark Douglas his website now run by his wife/widow.

His Amazon page

Also Van Tharp

and also his Amazon page

his website...

These two Mark and Van if you study them will put you well on the way to developing a probability trader mind set. This is counter intuitive to the way we human, by in large, think with very few exceptions. A trading system should be close to the last thing a new trader worries about works on and spends their valuable time on. Wish I would of asked the questions you are asking here when I was starting out. Maybe I would of not blow thru/lost the $50k+ I did...lol.

Train one's self to take your edge (please don't right now worry/work on just what that market edge is at this stage in your evolution as a trader) with your emotions under control and use your emotions as data points to better understand your trading and the trading environment. An edge any edge can produce a string of losers but you must so train your mind to take the very next edge that develops and not let the 6 losses you just had in a row deter you. This is the same type of thing emergency first responders train themselves to do (think building on fire and needing to save people inside etc) that would make the average Joe on the street have an accident in their pants. Or elite arm forces trained to go head first into a life or death gun battle that would make most frozen with panic.

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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  #274 (permalink)
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I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital. One of the best traders I know now blew his account up 3 times and almost a 4th before he became SUPER disciplined. I blew up one account and almost another before I took that side of things seriously enough. If I had to do it all over again, I would have paper traded at least 3-6 months before placing any live trades.

Also, I started to become a lot more profitable and more consistent when I started trading smaller, so that emotions weren't part of my mindset. Stay small and use stops and be very patient to enter and your win % goes way up in my view

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amttrader View Post
After perusing some of the posts in here, I'm not even sure I have any business being here at all. I'm brand new, lost, and only working on a demo with a friend right now trading futures only. Been doing okay so far, but I'm sure things will change when real money is involved.

I need to find some really elementary stuff in this forum to just get myself rolling along. I'm a quick study, but I need the information fed from a straw rather than a firehose at first. Any suggestions as to where I need to get started?

Let this sink in--- 95% of all traders do not make any money. It all goes to the 5%. What on earth would lead you to believe that you are going to be in that 5%?? The odds are stacked. My advice-- do not start, run, do everything you can to put trading out of your mind. You will not make money doing this. How do I know this? Because you like 99.9% of the people here are not honest enough to ask the 2 questions that you really seek answers for. Namely, What is it that the 5% know that you do not? And, is there a way to make them tell? The answers are: They'll never tell, and there is no way to make them. But I'm sure you, like others will continue to buy books, newsletters, webinars, systems, ect... no matter what the facts are. And be sure to keep a journal and have a lot of posts because that is a sure ingredient for success. Since when did keeping track of bad trading suddenly turn any one into a good trader? It only reinforces bad trading period. Your brokerage statement is the only journal you need.

This thread is about when to stop, I guess my post is really about -- not even starting.

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  #276 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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farmer55 View Post
Let this sink in--- 95% of all traders do not make any money. It all goes to the 5%. What on earth would lead you to believe that you are going to be in that 5%?? The odds are stacked. My advice-- do not start, run, do everything you can to put trading out of your mind. You will not make money doing this. How do I know this? Because you like 99.9% of the people here are not honest enough to ask the 2 questions that you really seek answers for. Namely, What is it that the 5% know that you do not? And, is there a way to make them tell? The answers are: They'll never tell, and there is no way to make them. But I'm sure you, like others will continue to buy books, newsletters, webinars, systems, ect... no matter what the facts are. And be sure to keep a journal and have a lot of posts because that is a sure ingredient for success. Since when did keeping track of bad trading suddenly turn any one into a good trader? It only reinforces bad trading period. Your brokerage statement is the only journal you need.

This thread is about when to stop, I guess my post is really about -- not even starting.

Harsh..but very true. But then one can always trade SIM forever..go on Forums and act like you are trading real money and exchange "System" ideas. That's no worse than playing video games and can be almost as fun.
Maybe if I read your message 7 years ago, I would have another 100 k in savings.
I am doing pretty good now..though..but it's been a very costly process. If someone doesn't have years to spend at this and the ability to withstand a few account blowouts, I doubt they have a chance...and even then.. a slim one.

Failure is not an option
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Japhro View Post
I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital. One of the best traders I know now blew his account up 3 times and almost a 4th before he became SUPER disciplined. I blew up one account and almost another before I took that side of things seriously enough. If I had to do it all over again, I would have paper traded at least 3-6 months before placing any live trades.

Also, I started to become a lot more profitable and more consistent when I started trading smaller, so that emotions weren't part of my mindset. Stay small and use stops and be very patient to enter and your win % goes way up in my view

There is a risk that you will stay at your small sizes for years

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  #278 (permalink)
desert CA
 
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farmer55 View Post
Let this sink in--- 95% of all traders do not make any money. It all goes to the 5%. What on earth would lead you to believe that you are going to be in that 5%?? The odds are stacked. My advice-- do not start, run, do everything you can to put trading out of your mind. You will not make money doing this. How do I know this? Because you like 99.9% of the people here are not honest enough to ask the 2 questions that you really seek answers for. Namely, What is it that the 5% know that you do not? And, is there a way to make them tell? The answers are: They'll never tell, and there is no way to make them. But I'm sure you, like others will continue to buy books, newsletters, webinars, systems, ect... no matter what the facts are. And be sure to keep a journal and have a lot of posts because that is a sure ingredient for success. Since when did keeping track of bad trading suddenly turn any one into a good trader? It only reinforces bad trading period. Your brokerage statement is the only journal you need.

This thread is about when to stop, I guess my post is really about -- not even starting.

I think the odds are even worse against retailers. Maybe a fraction of 0.25% of all retailers ever make it to trading consistently year in and out enough to make a living. The 5% winning of all trading are not retailers imo, and instead usually the big players with much bigger pockets which are hedge funds, hft firms, investment banks, etc. and they may not be positive year in and out.

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  #279 (permalink)
Canada
 
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tradeforall View Post
There is a risk that you will stay at your small sizes for years

Depends on your mindset, I treat trading like a job and am happy to make money every day, and peace of mind goes a long way.When I start adding size outside of my comfort zone, I don't trade as well and I don't hold as long. I also don't enjoy it as much. So, sweating a lot more for a few extra bucks, maybe, doesn't seem worth the hassle, to me at least

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  #280 (permalink)
portland me usa
 
 
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regarding the 5% who make the money, I believe it is a misconception to assume they make it all. Most of the money from losing traders goes to the middle-men, not the winning traders.

Take a hypothetical $1000 that a trader loses in the market. Since most traders lose, the person who "wins" that money will most likely trade it away to someone else, and so on. Each time that money changes hands the various middle men take their cut.

The broker takes commish, exchanges take transaction fees, market-maker takes the spread, the HFT's take a couple of pennies, etc. On top of that there are the monthly data, charting, and software fees of which a portion is taken from our $1000 as it sits in traders accounts.

As that $1000 continues to get passed around it gets whittled down bit by bit, eventually being reduced to nothing unless a successful trader happens to get hold of it. That's how this business works.

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  #281 (permalink)
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I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're close, yet ever so far away. The one and only lesson that must be learned from blowing up your account is this-- You have to face the cold hard truth that you have no idea what you are doing. And until you admit it to yourself and then figure out a winning edge, you must never ever place a trade until you do. Only 5% have figured it out. Which probably translates to 99.9% of people on this site should never ever even start thinking about trading. Only when and if you wake up one morning and can truthfully say--- I without a shred of doubt have a winning edge, then and only then can you place a trade.

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  #282 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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farmer55 View Post
I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're close, yet ever so far away. The one and only lesson that must be learned from blowing up your account is this-- You have to face the cold hard truth that you have no idea what you are doing. And until you admit it to yourself and then figure out a winning edge, you must never ever place a trade until you do. Only 5% have figured it out. Which probably translates to 99.9% of people on this site should never ever even start thinking about trading. Only when and if you wake up one morning and can truthfully say--- I without a shred of doubt have a winning edge, then and only then can you place a trade.

....And then, once you have that edge, you need to have the discipline to wait for that edge to show up and reject all setups that aren't the edge. I found an edge a couple of years ago, but had trouble resisting the temptation to jump in at other moves. Only until I learned to ignore everything but my designated setups and the particular market conditions they occurred in, did I start seeing consistency.

Failure is not an option
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  #283 (permalink)
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farmer55 View Post
I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're close, yet ever so far away. The one and only lesson that must be learned from blowing up your account is this-- You have to face the cold hard truth that you have no idea what you are doing. And until you admit it to yourself and then figure out a winning edge, you must never ever place a trade until you do. Only 5% have figured it out. Which probably translates to 99.9% of people on this site should never ever even start thinking about trading. Only when and if you wake up one morning and can truthfully say--- I without a shred of doubt have a winning edge, then and only then can you place a trade.

Respectfully, I disagree.

One could learn everything there is to learn about juggling balls, windsurfing, or driving a car, by reading the techniques in books. Nothing ever gets even close to doing it for real.

Same goes for trading.

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  #284 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

For every good trader out there, there are 100 more who think they can just copy someone else's method and start making money or join some trading room or download some expensive set of indicators, and be profitable.

Most of these guys have completely unrealistic expectations. They expect to take $10,000 and turn it into $100,000 at the end of the year, for example, even though they have no track record of performance or gains.

These people have no plan. They constantly blame their computer, their trading platform, their broker, their wife, their kids for missing trades or mistakes during a trade. They have no idea what to focus on or where to start.

And worse, most of them are unwilling to do the work. Yes, there are people for which that does not apply who are truly trying their best. But they are few and far between. Most people that are struggling aren't even willing to maintain a journal. Most people aren't willing to set realistic expectations. Most people aren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

On top of that, most of these guys aren't in a position in their life to even give trading a chance. Examples would be that they just lost their job. That is the worse time to start trading. Other examples would be that they have a job but no real savings, no money to burn in trading education expenses (and I don't mean from a trading room or buying a product). Worse still, many of these guys have no support from their wife or girlfriend because as you can imagine, they are losing money and also spending a lot of "free time" with trading instead of with their loved ones or kids. This is an impossible situation to put yourself in and expect good results.

So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on.

In fact, a lot of times my advice to these guys is to move on. Stop trading. Let's be real, if you are undercapitalized, unwilling to do the real work, and have no support from your family -- you aren't in a position to be a good trader.

But I also have to be honest, some times when I tell someone to stop trading, what I am really wanting them to do is come back and tell me NO, they will not stop, they are going to make it work. I mean if you really want this, then fight for it. But as I've said countless times before -- willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable.

We know that most people "give up" once they blow all or a significant portion of their initial deposit at a broker. This usually happens in less than 90 days according to brokers I've talked to. Most of these people aren't a part of any trading forum, and those that are, most of them are not participating, do not have a journal, have not taken time to ask questions or formulate a plan, etc. Again let's be honest: if anyone had taken the time to formulate a plan and prepare, they would not have allowed themselves to blow an account in 90 days.

For the rest, the ones that are members of futures.io (formerly BMT), I find that the overwhelming (close to 100%) of people that are struggling are the ones that have zero posts. I've come to look at this as an important metric. The ones that are uninvolved in the forum, for whatever reason, are going to be at a big disadvantage in my opinion. They lack a support network but also lack the benefit of accountability which is so critically important.

I've also found that these struggling traders are ones that haven't participated in any webinars. So that means they are unwilling to put in the time. They spend all their time, instead, on downloading indicators or searching for a new trading room to call trades.

OK so let me end by putting this out there... when is it the appropriate time to give up? Let's be honest, not everyone is cut out for trading. In fact, if we are honest, very few are. So it's cruel to string some of these guys along, it would be better for them to help them identify early on they don't have what it takes and they should move on.

Mike

As a beginner I learned that I have to make a plan before I start trading, I know that it is tempting to start big and invest a lot of money, but it's a mistake. The best way is to start small and make a slow progress SO THAT THE LOSE WILL NOT BE THAT BIG...

PEACE

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  #285 (permalink)
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SO THAT THE LOSE WILL NOT BE THAT BIG..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have already lost, but just don't know it yet. If you really truthfully have an edge, you know that you will make money every day.

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  #286 (permalink)
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farmer55 View Post
If you really truthfully have an edge, you know that you will make money every day.

I have spent quite a lot of time reviewing longer term track records of some of the best traders out there and notice that some of them even have losing months. Some of them even have successive losing months. Yet some of these traders who have had losing months are regarded as the best in the world. Heck, some of them even feature in Market Wizards. If these traders who are obviously some of the best in the world can't make money every day, does it mean they have no edge???

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  #287 (permalink)
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Japhro View Post
Depends on your mindset, I treat trading like a job and am happy to make money every day, and peace of mind goes a long way.When I start adding size outside of my comfort zone, I don't trade as well and I don't hold as long. I also don't enjoy it as much. So, sweating a lot more for a few extra bucks, maybe, doesn't seem worth the hassle, to me at least

I prefer to be loke Rocky =) Hard work and hard trainings.

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  #288 (permalink)
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farmer55 View Post
I think an integral part of trading is nearly blowing up, most ppl don't acquire the right money management headset/mindframe until they have lost significant capital
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're close, yet ever so far away. The one and only lesson that must be learned from blowing up your account is this-- You have to face the cold hard truth that you have no idea what you are doing. And until you admit it to yourself and then figure out a winning edge, you must never ever place a trade until you do. Only 5% have figured it out. Which probably translates to 99.9% of people on this site should never ever even start thinking about trading. Only when and if you wake up one morning and can truthfully say--- I without a shred of doubt have a winning edge, then and only then can you place a trade.

Respectfully, I make a living at this. I will not brag or lie that I make millions, I don't, but I make an average of $400-500/day which suits my risk/reward ratio and capital without risking too much ever. I take all profits out and use the same account size, because any of these brokers can collapse at any time for multiple reasons. I have an edge, a small one and thats what I rely upon

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  #289 (permalink)
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Great post! $400-$500/day is all you need. Same reason for never holding a trade over night, is the same reason for taking money out of your account. Any thing can happen. MF Global any one?

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  #290 (permalink)
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farmer55 View Post
Great post! $400-$500/day is all you need. Same reason for never holding a trade over night, is the same reason for taking money out of your account. Any thing can happen. MF Global any one?

For me, as a trader you need to find your own method and your own risk profile and just keep making the same kinds of setups like a bricklayer. It's the only way I have made money at this, that's for sure. The only trades I will hold overnight are ES options trades, I will often fade the day's move overnight with some and the risk is limited to the cost of the option

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  #291 (permalink)
Market Chamois
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grausch View Post
I have spent quite a lot of time reviewing longer term track records of some of the best traders out there and notice that some of them even have losing months. Some of them even have successive losing months. Yet some of these traders who have had losing months are regarded as the best in the world. Heck, some of them even feature in Market Wizards. If these traders who are obviously some of the best in the world can't make money every day, does it mean they have no edge???

Totally agree with this post.....

It's completely impossible to know the sequence of wins and losses ahead of time for ANY edge, period. That is why these traders sometimes have these losing months. But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen.

Anybody know what happen on Monday August 18, 1913? And the corresponding behavior of the masses (lacking probability training)?





Monday August 18, 1913





Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
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  #292 (permalink)
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Blash View Post
Totally agree with this post.....

It's completely impossible to know the sequence of wins and losses ahead of time for ANY edge, period. That is why these traders sometimes have these losing months. But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen.

Anybody know what happen on Monday August 18, 1913? And the corresponding behavior of the masses (lacking probability training)?





Monday August 18, 1913





Ron

Unfortunately I have spent way too much time researching Mark Minervini so the information below is drawn from several sources and I can not provide a specific link.

During 1997 he was taking part in the US Investing Championship and won it with a return of 155% p.a. Now, I am sure most would assume that those returns were achieved on a fairly consistent basis. However, after the third quarter he was only up 8% and was languishing pretty low in the standings. It was only in the final quarter of the year that he finally managed to gain some traction in his account.

I know he tracks several metrics, but he also tracks the typical expectancy numbers, i.e. average win, average loss and win%. The metrics have stayed pretty constant for him over the years, i.e. average win 10%, average loss 5% and win% of about 50%. Once you factor this into the account, even with a great win %, you can still have long periods of "sub-par" performance, i.e. slogging it out for 9 months to show a paltry 8% gain.

The point I am making here and perhaps @Blash and others will agree is that anyone hoping to achieve consistent returns may be in for a rude awakening. Most people enter this game thinking that they will be earning a "salary", i.e. nice consistent monthly returns. However, even if you consistently apply your method your profits will most likely come sporadically. It may seem like a small thing, but this probably is one of the main reasons most traders can't stick to their methods / systems. If you need to live off your account then low-return or losing periods could mean that the withdrawals just deplete capital to such a point that the account will never recover.

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  #293 (permalink)
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"But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen."

Riddle me this: If someone keeps abandoning their method and looks for another, shouldn't they eventually stumble on something that works? Eventually stumble into success?

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  #294 (permalink)
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thailerdurden View Post
"But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen."

Riddle me this: If someone keeps abandoning their method and looks for another, shouldn't they eventually stumble on something that works? Eventually stumble into success?

Markets always change. Sometimes following the trend works well, other times market are range-bound, sometimes that are extremely volatile other times they are as calm as can be. What it means is that everything will work at some time, but nothing will work all of the time.

If you constantly change your method to adapt to the current environment the cycle usually looks as follows:
  1. Suffer larger than expected losses due to trading a method that is not suited to the current environment.
  2. After a while change the method to be more in line with the current environment.
  3. Trade well until the market environment changes at which point you start can start again at point 1 above.

If you can minimize the losses when you are trading a method that is not suited to the current environment then changing up your style as needed could potentially work. I am not sure how well the traders on the scalping thread adapt - - however, when looking at the traders I know / have studied, most of them stick to one style and know that style extremely well. Whenever markets are favourable to their approach they trade large and whenever markets are not favourable to their approach they trade tiny. While their methods are all very good, it seems that the aforementioned skill (know when to hold / know when to not play) is what really makes them great.

Edit: Should also add that as per the post of @Blash all of these traders have a researched edge / system and the proper amount of confidence in it. It is very unlikely that someone who "stumbles" on a winning system will have the required confidence / perseverance to stick with it.

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  #295 (permalink)
Market Chamois
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Blash View Post
Totally agree with this post.....

It's completely impossible to know the sequence of wins and losses ahead of time for ANY edge, period. That is why these traders sometimes have these losing months. But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen.

Anybody know what happen on Monday August 18, 1913? And the corresponding behavior of the masses (lacking probability training)?

Monday August 18, 1913

Ron


thailerdurden View Post
"But they don't stop and abandon their method and start looking for another, as most do. Or change it dramatically. They have done the research hard work and believe in their work that produced the edge and understand probabilities regarding the winning and losing streaks that can happen."

Riddle me this: If someone keeps abandoning their method and looks for another, shouldn't they eventually stumble on something that works? Eventually stumble into success?


Great question @thailerdurden. I like it. And I will attempt some sort of an answer in my next post.

But first, kindly, perhaps it would be best to quote another using the quote button, please. Feel free to remove text from said quote not needed or wanted in the point your making leaving the authors info so it makes clear who wrote what.

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
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  #296 (permalink)
Market Chamois
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thailerdurden View Post

Riddle me this: If someone keeps abandoning their method and looks for another, shouldn't they eventually stumble on something that works? Eventually stumble into success?

Abandoning one's method seems to me to be the trap most fall into. I have done it in the past but no longer (same approach since last half of 2012). The key thing to understand, the knowledge that one must obtain IMHO, is that the method is not so important. It's not the "thing" that produces consistent profit. To put it bluntly .....You are! You want to search for something, some way to remove millions from the market? Search for yourself! Keep changing yourself! Understanding that you ARE NOT what you see in the mirror. You are not a brain, liver, heart, quadriceps, kidneys, bones, feet, spleen, blood, hormones, cells etc etc etc..... Or the sum total of these and more. This is all but dust! In one's use as a tool for a relatively short, maybe 100 years, max 121? For most shorter. Do what increases your power but obsessive or overemphasizing with regard to this physical shell is a waste of time, energy, resources etc. Back in my 20's I used steroids. Trained eat and slept. Worked as a personal trainer, waiter and student. For what, in the big picture? Body will still be a pile of dust like everyone's, in the end. IMHO spend time creating the best you from a spiritual, emotional, mental and rational point of view. The rational self is the greatest of gifts who's other name is the "soul". Knowledge is true wealth.

Below are a few of my favorite quotes........


Quoting 
“We must be like the fountain or spring that is continually emptying itself of all that it has and is continually being refilled from an invisible source. To be continually giving out for the good of our fellows undeterred by fear of poverty and reliant on the unfailing bounty of the Source of all wealth and all good—this is the secret of right living.”


Quoting 
"...When the swords flash, go forward! When the shafts fly, press onward! O Thou Sacrifice of the worlds. Dost Thou wail, or shall I wail? Rather shall I weep at the fewness of Thy champions..."


Quoting 
Man is the supreme Talisman. Lack of a proper education hath, however, deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess.


We must find what works for us, just understanding that the way we approach the market, i.e. the technical system, method or whatever the latest term is, is not the key. It's you. Don't keep looking in the wrong place you won't find what you are looking for.

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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  #297 (permalink)
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NEVER give up !!!
Except if you lost money trading and now are in debt and that you are putting your family or yourself in a dangerous position.
Because you are just stupid.
It's like borrowing money from banks and got to casino.
You did it once and most likely will repeat it.
Blowing your account with money you can lose is something different.
The logical process for my point of view and thanks to this forum is first get on simulator than if profitable
Get funded than if you want to add your own money a bit by a bit.
If you can't get funded than it's way too early for you to get trading with your own money.
It's less difficult psychologically to trade with somebody else money than your own but still bring an income.

On the brighter side,I think the 95/5 or 90/10 ratio is a old myth.
Everybody talks about it but I never seen any real data to prove it.
And even if there are data to back it up
What is considered as a trader?
A guy that trade once is a trader? Twice?
Somebody trusting a signal service or a hot tips or listening to CNBC?
Also somebody following some gurus that never trade ? And just ripping people off with their course?
I think anybody can trade but do you have the willingness and the patience to learn the skill of trading and money management and the psychology?
It's like any skills anybody can become what he desires but do you have the courage to do the work?
Stop procrastinate and do your homework and I believe any skills can be learned
Good trading

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  #298 (permalink)
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I had given up then came back after a few years but finally one thing did it which was learning to change my mindset about fear. The way I did it was to write being grateful and journal about it every morning and remember it throughout the day. This act changed my emotions of being fearful of my trades and made me emotionless. Absolutely agree that psychology is the most important thing in trading.

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  #299 (permalink)
Market Chamois
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rserrao View Post
I had given up then came back after a few years but finally one thing did it which was learning to change my mindset about fear. The way I did it was to write being grateful and journal about it every morning and remember it throughout the day. This act changed my emotions of being fearful of my trades and made me emotionless. Absolutely agree that psychology is the most important thing in trading.



Great discipline and patience. Wonderful example. Thank you.

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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  #300 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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rserrao View Post
I had given up then came back after a few years but finally one thing did it which was learning to change my mindset about fear. The way I did it was to write being grateful and journal about it every morning and remember it throughout the day. This act changed my emotions of being fearful of my trades and made me emotionless. Absolutely agree that psychology is the most important thing in trading.

The single most powerful tool in my trading has been to keep a journal. I can't stress this enough!

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- Trade what you see. Invest in what you believe -
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