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Time to Give Up


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Time to Give Up

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  #101 (permalink)
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josh View Post
There is only one Tiger, and only one MJ. You mention the best golfer of all time (by the time he's done anyway), and the undisputed greatest basketball player the world has ever known. If you asked if someone had the willpower to be better than Paul Tudor Jones or run a better hedge fund than Ray Dalio, then that would be a more fair comparison (and most of us would say, that would be great, but only a few million a year will do, thanks).

But I don't think anyone here is talking about being at that level. I think that simply preparing for trading alone is something that most people are too lazy to do. I also think that most are too lazy and scared to become introspective enough to face themselves and their faults with a view to transforming themselves (transforming their response to risk, their fear, greed, and all those things that we have to work on). Many are also not confident enough to think for themselves and formulate ideas and so they wind up on the grail quest, following others. I think maybe a select few simply aren't intelligent enough to trade but I think the percentage is small enough to be negligible. Besides that small percentage, I think most people are just unwilling to do the work that is required to really give trading a fair chance, and whether that's lack of willpower, lack of work ethic, or lack of something else, I don't know, but it's definitely true that most will not do it.

Yes I couldn't think of any average golfers or ball players to name.

Absolutely most people are "too lazy", have "faults", "not confident enough", aren't "intelligent enough", "unwilling to do work". These are quotes from above. That person is who he is. It is neither good nor bad, it is who he is. If that person says he wants to be a trader, there is only so much that he can change about himself. Some people are simply not good traders. Why would they want to force it? Why would they put themselves thru such a thing? Surely there are other ways to enjoy their lives other than trading.

The point of this thread was for struggling traders to re-evaluate what they are doing, their actual actions (not just trades), and what that is doing to their life.

I made several real life examples in the beginning of the thread. I cannot imagine how someone would think those people should keep trading just because they control their own destiny and can do whatever they want. That may be true, but it is also a terrible idea.

Mike

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  #102 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
That person is who he is. It is neither good nor bad, it is who he is. If that person says he wants to be a trader, there is only so much that he can change about himself.

I would draw a distinction: "who he is" is not the same as "habits he has" or "what he does" -- I do think people can change their habits dramatically. I have the opportunity to work with people who I have helped over months and years to dramatically improve their self image, and their confidence. I also consider myself as quite "lazy" earlier in life, but I changed my work ethic. If we 'are who we are,' it's quite a depressing life we have ahead of us, if we are so incapable of change, don't you think?


Big Mike View Post
Some people are simply not good traders. Why would they want to force it? Why would they put themselves thru such a thing? Surely there are other ways to enjoy their lives other than trading.

I made several real life examples in the beginning of the thread. I cannot imagine how someone would think those people should keep trading just because they control their own destiny and can do whatever they want. That may be true, but it is also a terrible idea.

Just to be clear, I agree that someone with traits of gambling and other self-destructive behaviors should not be trading, as it could harm the person and family.

Interestingly, I was watching the Science Channel earlier and a program called "Secret Brain" was on. One part was about how people tend to be optimistic; they will take into account data that supports their overly optimistic belief, while ignoring hard factual data that contradicts their beliefs. It was fascinating. The thought is that this behavior is for a reason--it helps us survive and grow. Even if the chances of survival and discovery of new land was slim, Christopher Columbus still sailed; it expanded territory and pushed boundaries. We need this type of irrational behavior as a race because it enables us to push forward.

Without the expectation of success, why would we even get out of bed in the morning? Failure in a particular endeavor may be more likely, based on the past; but it's the expectation of success that motivates us to learn and grow and push, all of which are, as you mention, a prerequisite to gain knowledge, self-understanding, market understanding, and all of those other things we need in order to be successful.

The program on TV was also very enlightening as to conscious and subconscious activity. What we think we are doing, strategy-wise, is not usually what our subconscious is doing, which actually accomplishes a certain task. I think it's the same with trading--seasoned veterans of trading talk about what they do, but they are so tuned in to how things work that they likely do a whole other set of things altogether. From when I first started trading I was blasted for talking about how a trade "felt" -- and while I think that there should be a lot of conscious strategy involved in trading (i.e., know why you're taking a trade), my inner gut is still usually right when it comes to knowing whether a particular trade is going to work or not. The subconscious often knows the right thing to do--it's up to us very often to let go of attachment to outcomes/money/ego and to just trust ourselves enough to listen to our gut. Feeling is so much more important to trading than many people give it credit for, IMO.

Again, to be clear, I know this is not really what the thread is about--but I think the topic affects us all so that's why I relate the above.

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  #103 (permalink)
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To be clear, I also believe people can change. To a limited extent though. I am proof of this, I had to change a lot about myself to be a good trader.

But, I do believe there is a limit. And I also believe some people will suffer a lot of pain, which usually also spills over to their family, if they try to force it.

The point of the thread is not so black and white as what led us to this discussion.

Mike

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  #104 (permalink)
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josh View Post
I would draw a distinction: "who he is" is not the same as "habits he has" or "what he does" -- I do think people can change their habits dramatically. I have the opportunity to work with people who I have helped over months and years to dramatically improve their self image, and their confidence. I also consider myself as quite "lazy" earlier in life, but I changed my work ethic. If we 'are who we are,' it's quite a depressing life we have ahead of us, if we are so incapable of change, don't you think?



Just to be clear, I agree that someone with traits of gambling and other self-destructive behaviors should not be trading, as it could harm the person and family.

Interestingly, I was watching the Science Channel earlier and a program called "Secret Brain" was on. One part was about how people tend to be optimistic; they will take into account data that supports their overly optimistic belief, while ignoring hard factual data that contradicts their beliefs. It was fascinating. The thought is that this behavior is for a reason--it helps us survive and grow. Even if the chances of survival and discovery of new land was slim, Christopher Columbus still sailed; it expanded territory and pushed boundaries. We need this type of irrational behavior as a race because it enables us to push forward.

Without the expectation of success, why would we even get out of bed in the morning? Failure in a particular endeavor may be more likely, based on the past; but it's the expectation of success that motivates us to learn and grow and push, all of which are, as you mention, a prerequisite to gain knowledge, self-understanding, market understanding, and all of those other things we need in order to be successful.

The program on TV was also very enlightening as to conscious and subconscious activity. What we think we are doing, strategy-wise, is not usually what our subconscious is doing, which actually accomplishes a certain task. I think it's the same with trading--seasoned veterans of trading talk about what they do, but they are so tuned in to how things work that they likely do a whole other set of things altogether. From when I first started trading I was blasted for talking about how a trade "felt" -- and while I think that there should be a lot of conscious strategy involved in trading (i.e., know why you're taking a trade), my inner gut is still usually right when it comes to knowing whether a particular trade is going to work or not. The subconscious often knows the right thing to do--it's up to us very often to let go of attachment to outcomes/money/ego and to just trust ourselves enough to listen to our gut. Feeling is so much more important to trading than many people give it credit for, IMO.

Again, to be clear, I know this is not really what the thread is about--but I think the topic affects us all so that's why I relate the above.


Big Mike View Post
To be clear, I also believe people can change. To a limited extent though. I am proof of this, I had to change a lot about myself to be a good trader.

But, I do believe there is a limit. And I also believe some people will suffer a lot of pain, which usually also spills over to their family, if they try to force it.

The point of the thread is not so black and white as what led us to this discussion.

Mike

The whole point of this thread has been validated by these two posts. @josh, that is post whose value is far beyond the sum of its words. @jimjones26 made a very powerful point a few posts ago, you have made an even better one. So close to being a polemic he-said-she-said, and then you and @Big Mike showed the mature way to talk about the point. Kudos

We are nothing, without our dreams. Would I ask my child to curtail his/her dreams for fear that failure may crush them? No, Despite my every emotional tug that would seduce me to tell them to be safe and do something "reachable". I would stand by them for every hard decision taken if done with purity of heart, and that of purpose. In all honesty, I would encourage them fully.

Trading is fantastic and unique avenue that allows us to be masters of our own self. Done right, it will and does improve our lives, it is a quality multiplier. That path is, of course, harsh and life changing, as it should be. As Jack Palance said, find your one thing, and run with it. This is, and should be purpose of this forum.

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  #105 (permalink)
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I almost given up many times. Especially when i blew my first $12000 account. That was when i first started 5 years ago. I was very naive about trading back then.

I almost gave up last year when a propshop said no to me.

I almost gave up when i kept trading for 3 months after the prop shop said no to me. I was a rocking horse plenty of action just not going anywhere. Trading 7 hours a night and keeping my day job and working around 16 hours a day (including trading) and seeing no signs of success.

I almost gave up when the losses kept piling up.

I almost gave up when i spet 6 months developing a trading system and I turned $5000 into $13000 and it went down to $2500.

I almost gave up on countless times.

Only this year did i see the progress i was looking for. It was right in front of my face. I adapted the training propshops use to train there trainees. Then everything changed. Now im a pure price action order flow trader and now starting to see consistency. But more importantly CONSISTENT PROGRESS IN A POSITIVE DIRECTION.

To directly answer your question: I don't think you should ever give up if this is your dream. I didn't and that mentality is the only thing that brought me to this point. I now have 1 Prop Shop very interested in me and i feel there will be more. I literally failed my way to this point and i know i will fail my way to becoming a fully funded successful prop trader.

If this is not your dream, if you don't live and breathe trading. If you don't work your ass off. If you don't trade every day. If you don't want it as bad as you want to breathe then that is the time to give up. You could take what you learnt in trading and put it into something else. Talk to any prop shop and they will tell you the ones who make it are the ones who are over the top obsessed with being a trader. If that isn't you, maybe its time to give up and do something else.

I will tell you one more thing. That if you are seeing progress it motivates you even more. Keep a journal and find a successful prop trader trading what you trade and see how they do it. You will have to look hard but if you really want this you will find someone. Just a heads up they probably wont tell you shit all but you must try to get as much information about this person as possible. I did this and it changed everything. John Grady, The Flipper and some Traders at Propex helped me develop my trading style to mimic what real successful traders do. Follow the bread crums of real traders trading right now. Not in some book. Fk the book most of it is bull shit. Find a real trader trading real money right now! Thats where you will find some answers. Again i say "some answers" because most of them aint gona tell you shit but its enough to direct you in the right direction.

If you're thinking about giving up do this.

1) Find a successful trader or prop trader that trades your instrument. It will be dam hard. The better they are the hard they are to find. Go strait to the source. Find out what they look at. I mean for goodness sake. I live in Australia and i found them. They didn't talk much but i got enough info of them to direct me in the right direction. You guys who live in the USA, or UK have no excuse. If i can do it in Australia you can do it too.

2) Once you know what they look at. Work your ass off and trade every day looking at what they look at. You will fail 1000 times before you start to see any signs of success. You will literally fail your way to successful trading. Time line for junior prop traders before they become consistent is 9 months on average based on my knowledge. And they trade every day for the entire session. Most do this without pay! So ask yourself how bad do these guys want it?

What have i done to become consistent and see progress every day.

I'm letting you know what ive done so you have a baseline of what might be expected of yourself. I can say for me personally that all 5 points are critical to me being at this point in trading.

1) Focus on become 1% better. Every day.
2) Trade every day as much as you can. I work 9 hours a day then trade 6-7 hours a night. I live in Australia so i trade during the night. I work around 16 hours a day. Ever day.
3) Journal every day.
4) Visualize 15 min a day about making good trades. I generally visualise making good trades and focusing on my weaknesses. At this point i visualize making good fade trades. Why? Because i always miss them. What happened last night when i traded? I made one good fade trade that gave me 3 ticks.
5) Don't look at the big picture too much. Success in trading and anything is a whole pile of little steps put together to make one giant leap. Only focus on the next couple of things you should work on. If you look at the entire picture it gets overwhelming. For instance right now Im working on Fade Trading better. Before that I was focusing on not getting chopped up in shallow ranges. Before that it was over trading and not making One Good Trade at a time.

I will be completely honest. At the start of the year i sucked really bad, about April i started seeing positive progress I wasn't losing as much. For the last 3 months i've become consistent. I can make 4 ticks a night on average. Through fading better I could get this to 6-8 ticks. Judging by progress Im looking at 2 more months before 6-8 ticks happens on a consistent basis. Then i will go to Topstep Trader get funded. Then go to Propex next year.

Check out this video
Type into youtube The most motivating 8 min of your life! go to 3:20 min. That person is me. I'm not smart but i dont give up. If i can get to this point in trading you can too. But you must be this guy.

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  #106 (permalink)
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the only reason I know as much as I do about HVAC and Refrigeration is because of the many times I screwed up.

If you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always gotten.
Celebrate because you executed your edge. Not because you won.
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  #107 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on.

Mike


I don't think you (or I) can really decide when it's time for someone else to give up or move on. People came to trading from different backgrounds with different goals. So "when" it is time to give up for someone might not work for others.

Think about other questions in same way, when it is time to stop making money? When it is the time to retire? etc.

I think if you rephrase the question, you will get the right answer. So instead when it is the time to give up, it should be when it is the time for me to give up.

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  #108 (permalink)
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giving up is no big thing, just to our ego(s)

..one guy had his whole family implode. his wife and children had to seek protection from the state/city and leave him (the trader). I felt so bad, it haunted me to the point I couldn't even trade properly for the next two days....

..one guy lost his marbles, to be polite, and simply contributes in conversations, just to hold his place holder and his substantial previous contributions to these theads. Sad to say, the willies have contributed to him seeing his friends as foes and losing even those well wishers and their collective concerns for his well being.

..one gal not only lost her marbles and monies but her relative place (i.e. sanity) in having put so much effort and time towards trading. Fortunately, she was able to dust off the resume and pass multiple interviews and have a bidding war on her talents that she was able to return to corporate and with a cushion. Certainly not the norm, and especially in these rigged economic times, where the middle class are simply supposed to just disappear

so, giving up isn't all that bad after all,
at some point its forced upon your account by being under margined anyways....

the question remains,
once more into the breach dear friends,
or swan song?

savvy?

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  #109 (permalink)
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My answer the question when should I quit, is when I determine I won't succeed. I've tried and failed at many endeavors and I have succeeded in several as well. I have my own unique criteria for deciding when to fold and walk away. BUT I have many options for making money and satisfying my intrinsic needs. I also have a sufficient nest egg to take me comfortably to my end of life. I don't need to succeed at trading. I want to. I have a loss limit, if I hit it I will roll up the tent and move on much more wise in a fascinating area of the economy.

Sent from mobile phone

_____
John
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  #110 (permalink)
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Threads like this really get to the heart and soul of who we really are as people IMHO.

Thank you everyone for being vulnerable and expressing your stories, feelings, and journey on here. I apologize about the length of this but I hope it reaches some traders and perhaps opens some eyes.

In my very humble opinion making a career as a trader has much to do with sacrifice. I often sit out on my surfboard in the open ocean and reminisce about my journey to become a successful professional trader. Although I have "made it" , and achieved consistent financial independence over the past 6 years, the cost has proven extremely great.

I was 26 when i started trading, I was a professional bodybuilder and fitness trainer with no formal education in anything remotely close to finance. I had a young wife who was my lifes love and 2 children (6 and 10 years old at that time).

Clearly defining what i took as my "strengths' that gave me success in my life( Iron discipline and the ability to execute a plan unerringly), I took to the markets guns blazing.

Guys Im really not trying to discourage or encourage anyone. I am mearly attempting to inject a dose of realism into a trade where unrealistic expectations run paramount by sharing my experiences and the rewards/repercussions of it.
I hear stories all the time of people saying how they are the types "who never give up", or who " will always persevere no matter what because they KNOW they can do it!" And other such colloquialisms.

Such a pollyannic attitude of thinking that "if you just hang in there long enough eventually you will win out", or that "if you win some sort of war of attrition with the market ultimately you will become a great trader" is just suicidal. We are inundated in society with the "Rocky" movies and other such "against all odds" type scenarios. Fellas, there is a REASON that these are movies. They are the dream, and they are absolutely the exception to the norm. Primarily done by exceptional people with untapped exceptional qualities.

We ALL want to be like that. We all love to think we are able to separate from the masses. And possibly in some ways we can. In fact I happen to have been an extremely successful champion bodybuilder. It took a massive amount of dedication, work, discipline and fortitude to bring a 265lb shredded physique to a stage. THAT was my gift and I found that trading took that PLUS a WHOLE lot more.

I put in my 10,000 hours of trading forex. I went to the ends of the internet and back. I focused on money management, risk analysis, price action, fundamental analysis, etc etc...

ENDLESS hours with no sleep... studying studying... persevering in some blind hope that I could achieve the same successes as many we hear about...

But... Success escaped me.... The doors just kept closing, accounts just kept slowly dwindling down... and the dream was dying a very quiet death.... All the while i found my interpersonal relationships with my wife and kids starting to suffer... More on that later..

I think perhaps it boils down to more than just "Can i make it in trading?" It is more a question of " Do I want to LIVE the traders life?" Frankly I feel that the vast majority are not near adequately ready to answer that question nor are most in anyway prepared for what an undertaking it is.

Being a zero sum business it is truly a journey into a complete unknown hostile battlefield for most without the help of even a compass or a weapon. In alignment with that analogy the odds are overwhelmingly against most. As somber of a thought as that may be, it is the hard truth.

I personally went through a very in-depth study of the marketplace after my first 6 months of floundering about. I studied the infrastructure of what creates the markets(forex, futures, equities, options, bonds, warrants, etc..). I studied how liquidity works, how are orders are filled, the interbank system. I learned about all the players across all the major markets, how they place their orders, what their aims are(commercial, institutional, CB's and retailers, etc). I studied Price Action for endless hours, staring at charts, plotting lines at support/resistance/supply/demand levels on all time frames to trade to and from. I studied the intricacies of market timing, the Gold fixes, how swap works, how brokers work. I went into in depth studies and read books on fundamental analysis. I learned a tremendous amount about the bond markets, yield curves, gold/oil ratios, correlating markets. I read every central bank book I could find. I know about the Fed top to bottom, the ECB, the RBA, the BOE. From the major players in those banks to how they originated. I studied fractional reserve banking because i wanted to learn how to asses how any of the policy makers could move the prices of currencies in relationship to one another. I read endless books on orderflow and macroeconomics. I strived to try and understand how and why certain policies and catalysts around the world would move one currency agaisnt the others.

All this time endlessly looking at charts. Hours and hours spent putting in demo trade after demo trade testing and endlessly testing.

I never believed in any technical indicators. I still dont. I always just traded Naked charts. Maybe at the most I used a stochastic early on but id be hard pressed to explain what almost any of the other lagging indicators does. To me they have never made sense. Trust me, I studied ALL of them in massive detail.

I placed together my system using multiple time frames with S/R, S/D zones, fundamental drivers, watching for news catalysts, my endless charting knowledge of PA, my risk management in place, looking at market timing, pre-panning my trades, etc etc..... it met with failure time and time again. days turned to weeks and weeks turned to months as I tried tweaking and adjusting, studying harder, working more and more. I REFUSED to be undone! I changed my risk management, time frames, used only PA I thought had the BEST chances of working. I called on help from every trader more veteran than myself and they all gave me advice. Still, I failed.

I figured it must be my psychology. So I delved heavily into self exploration, meditation, read books. Sought out gurus, got my mind right. Tried to identify my fears of losing or attachement to money. I made Goals, endless goals. Every day. I planned my life 10 years into the future in every aspect i could to achieve the "trading mindset".

I felt as ready as ever and went back into the market. More months fell off the chart as my accounts kept slowly dwindling down and dying. If I was using a 3:1 reward to risk Id lose 4 out of 5 trades consistently. It was always a slow bleed.

I then went the path of trying to find a mentor. Someone who could help me to identify my flaws in my trading/self and guide me to correct them. At this point years had already been spent and frustration was starting to set in. I had sacrificed much. My family had fallen apart, my work was suffering, as was my health(which I had prided myself on for my whole life) from the many nights up late trading and focusing. Trying to self sustain on negative returns.

Relentlessly I pushed on.

The mentors all were dead ends. I was watching my close friends starting to achieve success. They tried to help me, going so far as to try and copy their systems. All met with more failure.

More years went by. My wife and love left me with the kids. I made sure the door didnt hit them in the ass on their way out....Such was my obsession to not be undone...

Success did not come with it.

I moved into studying the quantside of trading. Learning to program code. Momentum trading, mean-reversion trading, Sharpe ratio, etc etc. Trying to learn to achieve positive kurtosis through algo identification of price trends. I delved deeply into this thinking that maybe, just maybe it was my only way. I ran into a brick wall. My algos would get taken out, my hidden markov models did not have the proper risk management protocols built in to keep me safe from many of the hidden liquidity issues in the fx markets and again.... suffice to say, I again was met with more defeat

At this point, utterly defeated, not knowing where to turn. I withdrew deeply into myself and saw what my life had become. I had become a shell of who i once was. I took a long break and a long period of self reflection and came to the end of my rope.

I was busted, homeless, alone, living in my car and sustaining on $.29 taco Tuesdays at taco bell. I showered at the gym and studied trading on Starbucks Wifi. I had no idea where my wife or kids were until the divorce papers showed up at my parents house since i didnt have a physical address.

When doors open in life. It is wise to walk through them. I believe we all have a calling. Im not religious, but I believe in a higher "self. To listen to the signs of life makes life much easier and it goes more smoothly. It was only after this realization I finally made my decision that the doors were firmly closed on my decision to become a trader. I learned a great deal about finance, markets, ect... but Mostly about myself.


I am far from a fascinating case study. I committed to giving my all to learning these markets much like many other aspiring traders start out. I was never one to easily give up on anything in life.

Tenacity and discipline has given me many of the things in my life I am the most proud of as well as thankful for. There just came a point to where the cost benefit of working to master the markets and live the "lifestyle" became more than I was willing to pay.

I ended up one night sitting on the beach, utterly destroyed, with the barrel of a loaded .44 between my teeth. I sobbed and sobbed and cried out to whatever powers that be that if this was the end for me just give me the strength the pull the trigger.... I got my answer when i woke up in the morning, soaking wet and freezing cold, but alive. That was my bottom.

I was still certain it was possible to trade these markets successfully. There is far to much evidence to support it and I would never be so obtuse as to argue in opposition. I simply came to the simple realization that we are all NOT created equal, nor do we all have the same capacity for successes and failures in different ventures in this life.

I ultimately realized the fact that maybe I had overcomplicated a more simplistic business. That being said it is quite a feat "unlearning" everything. Armed with the knowledge I had nothing to lose I resolved to cut out as much as possible to create a trading system that was simplistic, profitable, and viable. With what i had been through the concepts of losing money being the worst thing that could happen simply disappeared and I started to see profit in my trading.

Then more profits, and MORE profits. To my astonishment in less than 12 months I reached a peak watermark in my finances for life. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about my health or my relationships. I have never met anyone else and feel as though I have truly sacrificed my true soulmate for my fiscal successes. My children dont want to see me as Im afraid I destroyed those relationships too in their formative years in my unrelenting pursuit of success in trading.

All this being said, I have accepted my life where it is. I am listening more than ever to my "inner-self" and going along with the type of life that I feel is more in alignment with who I want to show up as in life. I opened up a small training studio and have rekindled my passion for helping others through fitness.

The vast majority of traders are extremely introverted and highly analytical. While I am certainly the latter, I am by no means the former. Trading is a lonely business. Traders do not really give anything meaningful back to society in the way that doctors, engineers, teachers, and any other more humanitarian type career does. I personally always had a difficult time with that aspect. As a personal trainer by trade I have always loved the aspect of helping people look better, feel more youthful, and improve the quality of an individuals life . It is a different sort of gratification than watching the GBP/JPY go +50 pips in profit. I am sure we have all heard of and possibly lived(I know i have) through a personal relationship falling apart due to the demands of the financial markets. It, by the very nature, breeds isolation from the rest of society.

Knowing who we are from what we are not is an integral part of our lessons in this world. Once you do know who and what you are it is wise to act in accordance to it.

Make certain the cost of what you want to do with this business is what you are prepared to bear


Wulf

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  #111 (permalink)
NYC + NY / USA
 
Experience: Advanced
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Posts: 798 since Oct 2009

so the logical choice (forced upon one due to circumstances), would be the next logical step?

does one revive their prior profession and skill set or do they renew and gain new skills in the hopes of current employ?

lifeline... UIS, is this available to help ease the transition?, at least for US based traders (check carefully)

new skills...
can you shake a tin cup, whilest sitting like a bum on the street (check)
can you dance on a cardboard foldout for quarters during lunchtime (check)
can you drive a taxi, bus, truck or someone crazy (check

essentially, humor is essential in cushioning the fall and during transition.

FFF!
friends, family and fawns help also

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  #112 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Georgia, US
 
Experience: None
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FXwulf View Post
I ultimately realized the fact that maybe I had overcomplicated a more simplistic business. That being said it is quite a feat "unlearning" everything.

@FXwulf, first of all, WOW, what a moving story. Thank you so much for posting it; I'm sure it takes mucho guts to even recall those emotions, much less put them in words for others to read, so thank you sincerely.

As for the above quotation... the thing is this: you can never "unlearn" what you learned. It's there, even if not in your conscious thought, every time you trade the markets. Even though an overcomplicated approach may hinder, from now until you die, you will never be able to approach trading as a true "simplistic business." Your approach may consciously be simple, but there is knowledge and background about markets in your head, and prior experiences, that will always be there.

I saw a program on TV recently that demonstrated how generally speaking, what people do when performing a particular activity is not what they think and say they are doing. Mechanics of an activity can be learned and taught, but often the things which are actually taking place are different from what the person thinks he is doing. So, while you have a simple approach, you have a whole lot of complex background, and that background shapes your current view of markets; both your knowledge and your heard-earned experience makes you who you are today.

So, while your simplistic approach is working for you now, who is to say that it would have worked years ago? Many traders use simplistic approaches and do poorly because they have only a superficial understanding of markets. You, however, have a simple approach based on a very extensive knowledge of markets, and based on having experienced a very wide range of emotions while trading, all of which makes you who you are today!

Thanks again for the post, I really enjoyed reading it!

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  #113 (permalink)
Calgary, Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
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FXwulf View Post
.......Threads like this really get to the heart and soul of who we really are as people IMHO.


......Make certain the cost of what you want to do with this business is what you are prepared to bear.....

Wulf

Sad, Profound, and the essence of life. You give up something, to achieve something.

@FXwulf this is a hard lesson to impart. Mike meant to warn people of how crushing it can be. Some of get it, some don't.

May I ask, would you do it over? And if you ever had the chance to tell your kids what would you say? You don't have to answer if you wish not to?

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  #114 (permalink)
NYC + NY / USA
 
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@FXwulf


thanks also, very touching.


also, check your private messages, I am sue others have peppered you with their sincere concerns and comments....


ATB!

(all the best) to you!

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  #115 (permalink)
Australia
 
 
Posts: 24 since Jul 2013
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@FXwulf

Man that's a story. Thanks for telling us.

There was 2 times I became almost suicidal when learning to trade. I hate hearing these stories because if you guys knew what i knew now a lot of people wouldn't go through that.

Now that i'm consistently profitable i know trading doesn't need to be that hard.

Guys hear me please. The point that changed everything for me was when i become in contact with real traders who actually trade every day for a living. A good source to find these are prop shops. SMB Capital is a good place to start for most of yous.

That was the turning point.

I learnt that a lot of what prop traders do wasn't taught in books and I had the wrong information the entire time!

We don't need to go through what FXwulf has gone through.

Its seriously sad and happens to too many wanabe traders.

I aint saying its easy but its simple. Find the real traders who trade your instrument and do what they do and then WORK YOUR ASS OFF! I put 8 hours into trading every day. Thats what's at least expected if your a day trader.

Do yourself a favour and talk to a real prop shop or full time trader trading your instrument

I become in contact with some bond traders in Australia. I trade bonds so i needed to find bond traders. Once i became in contact with them I was shown a few things such as order flow. After that everything changed. I became consistent in 6 months trading every day for 6-7 hours.

If you dont know any successful traders trading right now, you will think im talking shit about my time line but im not. Read One Good Trade a lot of the traders in their became consistent in 6-9 months. But they are day traders such as myself actually trading every day and not reading god damb books.

Its easier for a day trader such as myself to become consistent sooner because the amount of reps we do each day. I trade 5-15 trades a day so i learn faster then a long term trader. A lot of wanabe traders spend way to much time reading.

Seriously if i can find traders in Australia you guys in USA and UK have no excuse.

It was really hard and they dont tell you shit. But they will tell you enough to put you on the right track.

There is a huge difference between how retail traders are learning and prop traders

That a major difference between why its so hard for retail traders is retail traders learn of books and forums. Trainee prop traders who do this for a living learn from real traders who are actually trading today for a living.

F(@# the books and go straight to the source.

Stop god dam reading and start trading!

Trading is a skill. How you become good at a skill? By doing it

If i asked you how many hours you spent actually trading what would you say?

A lot of wanabe traders talk about being a trader but put no hours into actually doing it, instead put all that energy into reading books and education.

These wanabe traders are insane! They want to be a trader but actually put no hours into actually trading.

Making trades and working on the skill and becoming better every day is how you become consistent.

This is a game, its closely related to sport. You wouldnt think you can be a soccer player if you didnt play soccer and train every day would you? Well dont do it in trading.

Good luck to you all.

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  #116 (permalink)
Kailua-Kona, HI
 
 
Posts: 29 since Mar 2013
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josh View Post
@FXwulf, first of all, WOW, what a moving story. Thank you so much for posting it; I'm sure it takes mucho guts to even recall those emotions, much less put them in words for others to read, so thank you sincerely.

As for the above quotation... the thing is this: you can never "unlearn" what you learned. It's there, even if not in your conscious thought, every time you trade the markets. Even though an overcomplicated approach may hinder, from now until you die, you will never be able to approach trading as a true "simplistic business." Your approach may consciously be simple, but there is knowledge and background about markets in your head, and prior experiences, that will always be there.

I saw a program on TV recently that demonstrated how generally speaking, what people do when performing a particular activity is not what they think and say they are doing. Mechanics of an activity can be learned and taught, but often the things which are actually taking place are different from what the person thinks he is doing. So, while you have a simple approach, you have a whole lot of complex background, and that background shapes your current view of markets; both your knowledge and your heard-earned experience makes you who you are today.

So, while your simplistic approach is working for you now, who is to say that it would have worked years ago? Many traders use simplistic approaches and do poorly because they have only a superficial understanding of markets. You, however, have a simple approach based on a very extensive knowledge of markets, and based on having experienced a very wide range of emotions while trading, all of which makes you who you are today!

Thanks again for the post, I really enjoyed reading it!

Josh

Thanks for the kind words my friend and Im glad that the post meant something to you.

I probably should have been a little more succinct when discussing what I meant by "unlearning" everything. By no means was that literal and what you are saying is dead on accurate. My experiences and lessons in life and trading lead me to "trimming the fat" if you will off of what I needed to know in regards to being fiscally successful trading and what I did not.

I firmly believe that traders focus way too much on the minutiae of the business and less on what it entails being and living the trading lifestyle. It is about as far away from a 9-5 "job" as there is. Success, insofar as ive experienced it, has been more about cultivating a strong and positive mindset primarily. I have seen way too many traders with insanely different approaches to the market both fail and achieve to prove conclusively that it is the things most traders dont want to do( sacrifice, business plan, journal, SIM, invest $$ into proper tools, etc) that really make the difference.... As opposed to " Oh well Wulf uses the 12 Hour charts to swing FX so THAT must be what im not doing right! Voila! Problem solved!"

It seemed when Mike made this thread he was trying to get us to explore when is the best time to call it quits. It seems to me that the answer is when the cost(on many levels) is too great. In my case i went in so deep as to destroy every aspect of my life that my only way out was to go through.

Wulf

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  #117 (permalink)
Kailua-Kona, HI
 
 
Posts: 29 since Mar 2013
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Deucalion View Post
Sad, Profound, and the essence of life. You give up something, to achieve something.

@FXwulf this is a hard lesson to impart. Mike meant to warn people of how crushing it can be. Some of get it, some don't.

May I ask, would you do it over? And if you ever had the chance to tell your kids what would you say? You don't have to answer if you wish not to?

1. May I ask, would you do it over?
With all my heart, No. I suppose that was the whole point of my little tale. I ended up right back where I started( helping people with their fitness goals). And although I dont have to concern myself fiscally anymore Id offload every cent I made to get back my kids and wife.

2. And if you ever had the chance to tell your kids what would you say? Ill tell you my friend... I dont know.... But i think about it every day and i still hope one day I get the chance


Wulf

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  #118 (permalink)
Kailua-Kona, HI
 
 
Posts: 29 since Mar 2013
Thanks: 41 given, 204 received


joeyk View Post
@FXwulf

Man that's a story. Thanks for telling us.

There was 2 times I became almost suicidal when learning to trade. I hate hearing these stories because if you guys knew what i knew now a lot of people wouldn't go through that.

Now that i'm consistently profitable i know trading doesn't need to be that hard.

Guys hear me please. The point that changed everything for me was when i become in contact with real traders who actually trade every day for a living. A good source to find these are prop shops. SMB Capital is a good place to start for most of yous.

That was the turning point.

I learnt that a lot of what prop traders do wasn't taught in books and I had the wrong information the entire time!

We don't need to go through what FXwulf has gone through.

Its seriously sad and happens to too many wanabe traders.

I aint saying its easy but its simple. Find the real traders who trade your instrument and do what they do and then WORK YOUR ASS OFF! I put 8 hours into trading every day. Thats what's at least expected if your a day trader.

Do yourself a favour and talk to a real prop shop or full time trader trading your instrument

I become in contact with some bond traders in Australia. I trade bonds so i needed to find bond traders. Once i became in contact with them I was shown a few things such as order flow. After that everything changed. I became consistent in 6 months trading every day for 6-7 hours.

If you dont know any successful traders trading right now, you will think im talking shit about my time line but im not. Read One Good Trade a lot of the traders in their became consistent in 6-9 months. But they are day traders such as myself actually trading every day and not reading god damb books.

Its easier for a day trader such as myself to become consistent sooner because the amount of reps we do each day. I trade 5-15 trades a day so i learn faster then a long term trader. A lot of wanabe traders spend way to much time reading.

Seriously if i can find traders in Australia you guys in USA and UK have no excuse.

It was really hard and they dont tell you shit. But they will tell you enough to put you on the right track.

There is a huge difference between how retail traders are learning and prop traders

That a major difference between why its so hard for retail traders is retail traders learn of books and forums. Trainee prop traders who do this for a living learn from real traders who are actually trading today for a living.

F(@# the books and go straight to the source.

Stop god dam reading and start trading!

Trading is a skill. How you become good at a skill? By doing it

If i asked you how many hours you spent actually trading what would you say?

A lot of wanabe traders talk about being a trader but put no hours into actually doing it, instead put all that energy into reading books and education.

These wanabe traders are insane! They want to be a trader but actually put no hours into actually trading.

Making trades and working on the skill and becoming better every day is how you become consistent.

This is a game, its closely related to sport. You wouldnt think you can be a soccer player if you didnt play soccer and train every day would you? Well dont do it in trading.

Good luck to you all.

great advice Joey. I hope many of the new guys starting out heed this advice. I dont wish my experience on anyone.

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  #119 (permalink)
Kailua-Kona, HI
 
 
Posts: 29 since Mar 2013
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kronie View Post
@FXwulf


thanks also, very touching.


also, check your private messages, I am sue others have peppered you with their sincere concerns and comments....


ATB!

(all the best) to you!

Kronie

Im responding as best I can. I only get to send one every 60 minutes though but I am happy to respond to any and all who contact me

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  #120 (permalink)
Phoenix Arizona
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: MotiveWave
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Patrick S View Post
the only reason I know as much as I do about HVAC and Refrigeration is because of the many times I screwed up.

LOL, As as service tech, this cracked me up. We call it the smoke test....red 2 red, black 2 black, white 2 white, purple 2 purple....power on.....OH SHOOT!!!!!

Ddawg

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  #121 (permalink)
Detroit, Michigan
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja Trader
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 299 since Nov 2011
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I recommend watching this: The Captains (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Being a Star Trek enthusiast I thought that would be the focus of Shatner's documentary....but lo and behold it had a lot to do with the sacrifices all of these actors had to make to be a Star Trek Captain and how painful it was and is for many of them.



FXwulf View Post

In my very humble opinion making a career as a trader has much to do with sacrifice. I often sit out on my surfboard in the open ocean and reminisce about my journey to become a successful professional trader. Although I have "made it" , and achieved consistent financial independence over the past 6 years, the cost has proven extremely great.

Wulf


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  #122 (permalink)
NYC + NY / USA
 
Experience: Advanced
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kronie's Avatar
 
Posts: 798 since Oct 2009

traders, trading and surfing the web trading are all suffering from the gridlock and in-ability to agree and put the mass of millions of willing, able bodied work capable citizens to work, on infrastructure or other significant and substantive (national) projects...

this industry is suffering with artificial and gamed earnings reports with guidance numbers that keep lowering expectations...

there's a low level at which any economy still has life and performs transactions for services and goods but not one where it is robust, and it seems the mighty US is not the only economy in the western world on life support and easy monetary policy support...

its not surprising that things keep coming undone on these low tides,

so dear friends,
once more into breach...

cry havoc and let slip.....

oh, I'm not a poet?

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  #123 (permalink)
Budapest, Hungary
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker: TopstepTrader
Trading: NQ, TF, YM
 
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Posts: 469 since May 2013
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My situation is a little bit tricky. I have been tagged with trading 1 years ago. I have been started ofc with forex/webinars/bots/signals etc... Long story, if you would like to read my trading journal, you can get the shorter version. Anyway. Right now I have a clear vision about I want to trade. I am pretty confident in my self, but what I have been realized some weeks back my professional life=my work is discracting me from my purpose of trading. Really. I was stressed, I was not able to sleep, I was bad with my family etc...
So yesterday I've said enough, so I resign. Still have some issues, but I hope that I can start trading in a few weeks. I know that this is the biggest mistake in futures.io (formerly BMT) reading, and I dont have unlimited saving, but:
- I have family who support me
- I have good connections in my work, so I have some safty net scenario, if trading is not for me
- I have vision, and trading plan to follow
- I have other plans like: start sporting, loose weight etc...
- I have confident
- And I have a good mentor to learn from

And I dont have to worry about the money for the next 3-4 months, which is not too much I know I KNOW, but still doable

- And last and not for least. I dont want to make 100K in 1 year. I would like to make 30K in 1 year, which could be reasonable, and more than enough for my family. So I believe me expectation management is fine as well

So, we will see. I know that this is not the best start, but speaking frankly, if you are working in a business/management consulting business 10/12 hours a day, and you have a family to take care of, it is almost impossible to make a smooth fading period between trading and professional life.

Comments are welcome:P

Máté
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  #124 (permalink)
Raleigh NC
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja
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matevisky View Post
My situation is a little bit tricky. I have been tagged with trading 1 years ago. I have been started ofc with forex/webinars/bots/signals etc... Long story, if you would like to read my trading journal, you can get the shorter version. Anyway. Right now I have a clear vision about I want to trade. I am pretty confident in my self, but what I have been realized some weeks back my professional life=my work is discracting me from my purpose of trading. Really. I was stressed, I was not able to sleep, I was bad with my family etc...
So yesterday I've said enough, so I resign. Still have some issues, but I hope that I can start trading in a few weeks. I know that this is the biggest mistake in futures.io (formerly BMT) reading, and I dont have unlimited saving, but:
- I have family who support me
- I have good connections in my work, so I have some safty net scenario, if trading is not for me
- I have vision, and trading plan to follow
- I have other plans like: start sporting, loose weight etc...
- I have confident
- And I have a good mentor to learn from

And I dont have to worry about the money for the next 3-4 months, which is not too much I know I KNOW, but still doable

- And last and not for least. I dont want to make 100K in 1 year. I would like to make 30K in 1 year, which could be reasonable, and more than enough for my family. So I believe me expectation management is fine as well

So, we will see. I know that this is not the best start, but speaking frankly, if you are working in a business/management consulting business 10/12 hours a day, and you have a family to take care of, it is almost impossible to make a smooth fading period between trading and professional life.

Comments are welcome:P

I read your post this morning and you popped into my head on my way home for dinner.
I don't think that as a coincidence so please consider what I am about to tell you.

I want you to post your trading results for the past 6 months.

If you can show that you consistently profited $2500 or more NET PROFIT every single month, for the past 6 months, than you have proven you can support your loving family with that $30,000/yr.

If you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always gotten.
Celebrate because you executed your edge. Not because you won.
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  #125 (permalink)
Budapest, Hungary
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Patrick S View Post
I read your post this morning and you popped into my head on my way home for dinner.
I don't think that as a coincidence so please consider what I am about to tell you.

I want you to post your trading results for the past 6 months.

If you can show that you consistently profited $2500 or more NET PROFIT every single month, for the past 6 months, than you have proven you can support your loving family with that $30,000/yr.

Thank you and I agree with you fully! In the ideal world you can collect as many safty check point as you can before you start trading. I am not saying that i will be successful. I hope I will and my original plan was to start trading in december. But it is not an ideal situation, and i know that I could fail and I also know that if I fail that will be because of lack of pratice and proven record history on papertrade.
Thus my plan is still the same. The trades what i will take morr like will be around news releases and post news trading methodes. I used to do it in the past but I didnt like it cause it was like cheating I have proven record for this for the last 6 months and my calculation was based on this history. But still it is risky i know and my family also knows that!

Máté
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  #126 (permalink)
Munich, Germany
 
 
Posts: 285 since Apr 2012
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matevisky View Post
Thank you and I agree with you fully! In the ideal world you can collect as many safty check point as you can before you start trading. I am not saying that i will be successful. I hope I will and my original plan was to start trading in december. But it is not an ideal situation, and i know that I could fail and I also know that if I fail that will be because of lack of pratice and proven record history on papertrade.
Thus my plan is still the same. The trades what i will take morr like will be around news releases and post news trading methodes. I used to do it in the past but I didnt like it cause it was like cheating I have proven record for this for the last 6 months and my calculation was based on this history. But still it is risky i know and my family also knows that!

6 months of results might not be enough in order to draw any conclusions. Or at least, you should provide for some leeway in your estimates regarding trading income. Maybe you just had a good run in those 6 months.

I do not know how many trades you have done in those 6 months. If it was several hundred trades, then you can feel safer regarding your results as compared to it being, for instance, only 20 trades.

Also, how much percent of your initial trading capital is $30,000? I mean what percentage increase in your account equity do you expect to have per year? That can provide also some guideline about how realistic your expectations are. If you only have $10,000 it's something totally different than having $200,000 as starting capital.

You mention also a news event based strategy and paper trading. If your 6 months results were on paper and you traded news events, you should consider slippage in your calculation. In live trading you might not get the fills you had in paper trading.

All the best!

k

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  #127 (permalink)
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karoshiman View Post
6 months of results might not be enough in order to draw any conclusions. Or at least, you should provide for some leeway in your estimates regarding trading income. Maybe you just had a good run in those 6 months.

I do not know how many trades you have done in those 6 months. If it was several hundred trades, then you can feel safer regarding your results as compared to it being, for instance, only 20 trades.

Also, how much percent of your initial trading capital is $30,000? I mean what percentage increase in your account equity do you expect to have per year? That can provide also some guideline about how realistic your expectations are. If you only have $10,000 it's something totally different than having $200,000 as starting capital.

You mention also a news event based strategy and paper trading. If your 6 months results were on paper and you traded news events, you should consider slippage in your calculation. In live trading you might not get the fills you had in paper trading.

All the best!

k

I do agree every point of your saying.
The initial capital is doesnt matter. The question is that what I am ready to loose, and it is different. Also very important the statistic, about the trades. If it is over 70-80% than you can risk more.
Slipage can also play, but it is not really happening postnews trade. That is the issue around spike trading. I am not spiketrading. I take 2-3 trades per a week, based on analysis, and based on fundamental overview as well. So it is different.
I am mesuring the gain in tick/pips, which is between 100-200 consinstansly in the last 6 month.

But once again this is not a justification, and every challanging comments are welcome, because I would like to analyse every trap before and not after. So thank you for your comment(s)

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  #128 (permalink)
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Thank you and I agree with you fully! In the ideal world you can collect as many safty check point as you can before you start trading. I am not saying that i will be successful. I hope I will and my original plan was to start trading in december. But it is not an ideal situation, and i know that I could fail and I also know that if I fail that will be because of lack of pratice and proven record history on papertrade.
Thus my plan is still the same. The trades what i will take morr like will be around news releases and post news trading methodes. I used to do it in the past but I didnt like it cause it was like cheating I have proven record for this for the last 6 months and my calculation was based on this history. But still it is risky i know and my family also knows that!

We need to see 7 screen shots.
One for each month of the 6 and the 7th should be the grand finale

If you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always gotten.
Celebrate because you executed your edge. Not because you won.
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  #129 (permalink)
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Patrick S View Post
We need to see 7 screen shots.
One for each month of the 6 and the 7th should be the grand finale

LoL, you sound like his mother Patrick. You've given him some pretty substantive counterpoints to what he is attempting, but no need to push.... he is an adult and responsible for his own decisions.

Cheers!

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lifeguardsteve88 View Post
LoL, you sound like his mother Patrick. You've given him some pretty substantive counterpoints to what he is attempting, but no need to push.... he is an adult and responsible for his own decisions.

Cheers!

I know I know!!
but Hey, He Asked

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Patrick S View Post
We need to see 7 screen shots.
One for each month of the 6 and the 7th should be the grand finale

I will record every trade in the journal. For old ones there is no use to post, most of the cases it is comon understandable one way trades. If after the release there is a cross over on the 21sma than take... Etc...

But thx for care!!!

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Anyway, we are going forward from the original topic which gave me the idea to ask. I believe there are point and situation in your life when you have to stop work and start trading with full time and heart even if you are not ready fully. Yes it could hear out a stupid justification but as Mike mentioned in the begining the failure could be that you dont have time to soend on learning trading
In my scenario I am pretty sure about it. And yes we can debat that this is not the scenario which is the best pratice, thats why I raised that issue. Can you imagine that you have to stop working and start trading because your working obligitaion stoping you to become better trader?

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matevisky View Post
Anyway, we are going forward from the original topic which gave me the idea to ask. I believe there are point and situation in your life when you have to stop work and start trading with full time and heart even if you are not ready fully. Yes it could hear out a stupid justification but as Mike mentioned in the begining the failure could be that you dont have time to soend on learning trading
In my scenario I am pretty sure about it. And yes we can debat that this is not the scenario which is the best pratice, thats why I raised that issue. Can you imagine that you have to stop working and start trading because your working obligitaion stoping you to become better trader?

Now I understand what you wanted to say with your first post

Although, I think that @BigMike had something else in mind when he created this thread (trader already started and has no success yet), you are right regarding the beginning of the journey. At some point you have to take the risk and try it, just as every entrepreneur. I did it the same way.

I've once heard a motivational speaker say (I'm paraphrasing), "there are 2 types of decisions…" … I thought to myself "yes, right ones and wrong ones" … but he continued "… "those you take decisively and those you do not take decisively" … … he pointed to the fact that the decisiveness of your decisions makes the difference in the outcomes of your decisions. Obviously, just deciding and saying affirmative sentences is not enough, but the decisiveness is shown in succeeding actions (also, doing what is necessary to overcome hurdles, etc.).

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Hi @FXwulf and @matevisky

Really interesting to see adventures in the zero sum game that one can ride through.
Not giving any advice here - as I am not mentoring here - but reflecting on some important
points. Full time trading or part time trading is NOT really important.
Instead - I would like to bring up some picture that came into my mind when reading the
touching stories here:
"If I am a adventurer to cross a desert with a special vehicule in the next 3 weeks I need
to find proper tools, getting good advice from other people that did the trip already, to
train to get into the right mindset to fulfill some hidden and unplanned exercices. Finally
we need to make the plan for getting through and a emergency plan if something fails!
So lets start and see how that trip - which starts with the first step - will develop."

Trading is not far from the above story.
One has to find the mindset on how to cross uncertain fields - with many obstacles.
Then every decision made can decide on how we can succeed or fail.
In other words - if one is well prepared, well equipped and with a good margin getting
on that trip - there is a chance for success.

Maybe the desert is not your destiny - or the time is not good to start the journey - then
we have to step back and wait for the best moment / plan to show up.

In my closer friends circle I am aware of one trader who was for his own company trading
gold and currencies - as a hedge for his daily business. As his business was running very
well - his trading was a total loss. He had quite a lot of trading experience - but the decisions
he made were all very counterproductive. At the very end of a 5 year trading time and money
investment he was putting all aside and concentrated on his original daily business - all
without any view on currencies or gold prices.
So he succeeded and today he has reached his goals.

To come to an end - there is only one thing to consider: find your instrument which might
become your second skin.
If it suits you - you will be prepared for any adventure turning up!
If not - concentrate on your old skills you were already successful with.

GFIs1

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  #135 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
But trying your hardest is a requirement.

All the floor trpostaders I've talked to have had a terrible time transitioning to screen trading. On the floor there was an edge by simply being there, you could buy the bid and sell the ask and pocket the spread from my understanding. That particular edge does not exist for screen trading, but perhaps there are other edges that do. For example as an individual trader, professional or not, you are more nimble than an institutional trader which can give you an advantage.

Mike


I have tried to explain in concise words that very same reality. Simply put the expensive floor trader's advantage and the barriers to entry provided an edge worth paying for and produced a very comfortable living that doesn't translate in this two dimensional world of ECN's and ECN trading. The preceptory inputs are no where near the same level, even when you add in a current squawk or TV news source to your trading hours.

Persistence yes but belief in yourself and edge even more so is required to continue in the face if less than desired trading results, whether or not you journal online, offline, notebook paper eith chary markups or other methods used.

Sharing is more than caring, however, post sharing if ones templates and approach is 3x more valuable. Whether that takes form of a temporary trading group over skype or webex or omnovia or some other method still remains essential not optional or view with such skeptism as mentioned in the prior posts by you and @wldman.

I've had both success and helped many others freely and we're still friends for the most part as long as they're still "in the game". I've made some of the best contacts as a result of such efforts with the likes of @Zondor, @ztr, @PandaWarrior , and others both still with us and some not.

I can only offer same going fwd by pm and and interview, to see if one's disposition and temperament are appropriate to these trading groups. Associative trumps self deception.

I have come to understand that there are intangibles that forums like futures.io (formerly BMT) threads have filled to the success of many traders. Thanks Mike, all jokes aside, and don't abandon the good 'ole USA anytime soon (I hope to visit Ecuador as a result of your posts).

I say to those honest with themselves, not to give up and work the angle they've paid so much time and resources to obtain. Stay at trading while remaining humble to accept the positive results you've obtained and focus heavily upon maximizing and scaling up on those gains. Simply put, believe in yourself and give yourself a chance. Attend those replay and live seminars; be open minded to learning and relearning. Accept that no matter how educated one becomes there is still more to learn, because these markets are traded by people evidently more intelligent than oneself (that lump takes a while to swallow)

ATB. (all the best)!


((sent from Android phone and small screen and keyboard --- iow, it was just that important to add my two cents to the discussion including typos; but you may want to cash that in and ask for change back)

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  #136 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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@kronie

Hey man, it is very difficult to be all about sharing templates and trade specifics. It takes a tremendous amount of time. When I have seen it done it is usually by someone who wants a "following" for edification or for marketing purposes.

So if I was in a position to have a desire to share like that the motivation for me would be simply to help, if asked, to the best of my ability. Where that kind of thing goes wrong for me is that you invariably stir up a list of detractors that ruin things...or you get the attention of people who have not and will not do the necessary work to succeed. Sometimes people say that they really want to learn but their questions reveal that they do not listen.

Just last night there was an issue where a respected member had posted about a monthly result that was met with great month...how about last year.

So I am pretty sure that authentic "mentorship" gets thwarted pretty quick.

Past that good trading results come from something other than the secret indies with the magic settings. Good trading is born of discretion or what could be called experiential knowledge applied with specific discipline. That is NEVER what people seek. The fast track to easy riches in trading is of the same myth as the magic indie and secret setting.

So to a guy like me...when someone asks for help and won't listen it becomes a waste of time very quickly.

Happy to clarify any of that especially if I missed the point.

Dan

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  #137 (permalink)
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wldman View Post
@kronie

Hey man, it is very difficult to be all about sharing templates and trade specifics. It takes a tremendous amount of time. When I have seen it done it is usually by someone who wants a "following" for edification or for marketing purposes.

So if I was in a position to have a desire to share like that the motivation for me would be simply to help, if asked, to the best of my ability. Where that kind of thing goes wrong for me is that you invariably stir up a list of detractors that ruin things...or you get the attention of people who have not and will not do the necessary work to succeed. Sometimes people say that they really want to learn but their questions reveal that they do not listen.

Just last night there was an issue where a respected member had posted about a monthly result that was met with great month...how about last year.

So I am pretty sure that authentic "mentorship" gets thwarted pretty quick.

Past that good trading results come from something other than the secret indies with the magic settings. Good trading is born of discretion or what could be called experiential knowledge applied with specific discipline. That is NEVER what people seek. The fast track to easy riches in trading is of the same myth as the magic indie and secret setting.

So to a guy like me...when someone asks for help and won't listen it becomes a waste of time very quickly.

Happy to clarify any of that especially if I missed the point.

Dan

Dan,
I completely agree!


I mentioned the "interview" which is used as a screening tool. I can't and will never attempt to cover the variety or range of those who self select and present themselves on these threads, as paid Elite members. The range is as varied as the jelly bean bowl.

Then your comments about those who seek to become mentors, paid advertisers, poachers, "never show their results and proof" experts (I have a few names in mind with that category). They sure do turn up don't they.

Some of the things you hear are:
1) "stay off those threads and stop commenting and posting;
2) "why share and comment, just for someone to "thank" your comment or thread?"
3) "isolate yourself, only participate in their room, and stick to your plan", all irrespective of volitility. go figure

--- there are a whole host of other expressions used and said that further isolate and confuse instead of include and spur further trading acuity improvements. So on that critism, I agree too.

I too, as you, Dan, have had same protractors and inquisitors. Over time, and we have so little of that, they prove themselves not of the sort that trading and sucess suits their temperment (personality, commitment and abilities)

I reflect back to Charles Booth. I really appreciated and respected him, although his brash nature suited his approach and he has successful adherents to prove his approach.

I reflect back on Trader.X (name withheld by his request) who was forced into vendor status. A wonderful personality and very likeable soul, but when results and details were pressed, well to be fair, there were gaps.

So then what does one attribute success to? When does one quit (the focus of this thread)? When does one seek help when one has quantified their faults and areas where they need help?

Hopefully others who elicit traits they lack and seek help from them, which is what has made futures.io (formerly BMT) so popular.

Hopefully with other minnows and together they form a large mass of Sardines in size as to frighten even their predators and other large fishes. They used to call them "Birds of a Feather" in tech circles.

Hopefully with other traders of like ilk, until they outgrow them or care to help others, there by improving themselves. In fact, VanTharpe said in his trading psychology books, keeping and forcing oneself into a journal is the next logical step of progression. A variant of those journals are the trading groups, as I mentioned before. Its not surprising that those who have shared their journey and experiences of growth, have received so many contacts from known and unknown friends on these threads. Perhaps because when reading those journals, they recognized that guys has more light than me, and perhaps he can shed some light on what is stumping my progress. I am guessing most of those types were genuine. Then there were those who realized it (trading success) would take more than they were willing to commit. That was the interview process, and those journals did not (for the most part) result in trading rooms or take their efforts further. In some cases they did.

I for my part, participate and read / absorb / learn from these threads and discussions as they keep coming up and repeating overtime. Yes, repeating. The same topics and conversations. Only because we ride the tides of volitility and we're up, and we're down and those taking the journey sometimes reach out across and join hands and become a larger floating vessel that weathers the storms better than just going it alone.

ATB!

that's my motto.

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  #138 (permalink)
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Getting back to the topic of this thread:

What to do when its time to quit:

1) identify what failed....

if it all comes down to a lack of profits or a loss of trading capital. Then seek a means to replenish and start again, as long as you also repair other unsuccessful habits and approaches.

2) decide to repair, replace or refer...

I have suggested often times, that others should take their capital, while they still have it, and the door is still open (as one commentator said earlier, from the floor). Take their capital and seek a trading advisor and money manager, if they're still committed to being in the markets. One can always return to basics and simply buy and hold stocks for long term appreciation and dividend payments. One can return to more advanced topics and trade long term options (Equity options, Index options, Futures options). One can return to safer havens and purchase and hold ETF's or Mutual Funds and let professionals manage their monies. One can take on infinetly more risk and seek a Futures Trading Merchant and allow them to blow their stack (loose their investment capital).

3) realize that trading at this level is NOT FOR THEM, and take appropriate actions

4) step up to the plate and stop fooling themselves and GET SERIOUS.
-- even Big Mike's comments along those lines were he wished people would not give up but show their resolve.



One thing is certian, futures.io (formerly BMT) and these threads have really helped many and for so little investment cost too.

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  #139 (permalink)
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This comment is made by Mike in the How much capital is enough to get started with automated Trading? and I thought responding to this was better suited in this thread:


Big Mike View Post
My answer to the question is: Start with the lowest amount of money needed to carry you for 1-2 years, having defined ahead of time (business plan) set "installments" of money on something like a quarterly basis, that you will pay yourself as part of your tuition or learning expense (ie: re-funding your brokerage account).

Some people can figure it out faster than 1 year, some people can't figure it out after 10 years. It all depends on how good you are at measuring yourself and making sure you don't keep repeating the same mistakes.

If I understand you correctly, you think that if someone after two years full-time hasn't developed a profitable strategy, it's time to give up?

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  #140 (permalink)
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Jura View Post
This comment is made by Mike in the How much capital is enough to get started with automated Trading? and I thought responding to this was better suited in this thread:


If I understand you correctly, you think that if someone after two years full-time hasn't developed a profitable strategy, it's time to give up?

There is no easy answer to that. It will depend on too many variables.

But at the least, if you are at it for two years without success, you had better be taking note of what you are doing (repeating mistakes).

What I find unfortunately does not match that. Plenty of users on futures.io (formerly BMT) I recognize for four years, and they are on Sim still or they are still chasing indicators, vendors trade rooms, or automation as the solution -- but they aren't focusing on actually learning how to trade.

Just my opinion of course..


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  #141 (permalink)
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olobay View Post



the key?

money, and a huge account from which to earn from...

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  #143 (permalink)
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dimas View Post
I think that giving up is not gentle way of business way..
It's shameful, trading without success for 2 years. I'm sure there are something errors with your trading strategy..
The best way is sorting and evauating your own strategy, you can find your errors and mistakes when you enter position...
If you able to find and correct them, im sure you can use it as your weapons in forex trade..

Al Brooks said he took 10 years to become CP. But yes after 2 or 3 years, maybe better to focus on trade and money management rather than multiple variations of the same entry system. It's the other half and no less important side of entering a trade.

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  #144 (permalink)
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when you just hang on, for the association...


or for the chatbox posts of no relevance to trading... a specific contract or position or approach (such as fibs or profile or momentum or whatever)

or when the bitterness (of a failed trading career) over shadows rationale thought, all the time...


mowing lawns at least pays cash on the barrel and during the summer always has a sweet aroma through the neighborhood....

hey....

its time!

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  #145 (permalink)
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Fear in trading is inversely proportional to account size...success is directy proportional to account size...
In other words, the larger the account size, the less "fear" of losing and the greater the chance of success.
Over decades of trading, I've found that money management (and account size), is far more important than any individual entry or exit point.

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  #146 (permalink)
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Perhaps a way to view when to give up or exit trading could be viewed in a similar way in managing/exiting a single trade. There are many outcomes to one's trading career just as in a single trade e.g:

1. Initial Stop Loss - When a objective drawdown has been hit.
2. Breakeven Stop - If over a measured amount of time there has been no improvement to equity, exit.
3. Trailing Stop - Quit while you're ahead and don't give back everything!
4. Profit Target - Quit trading career after X amount of $
5. Profit Target and Let Winners Run - Bank a large portion of money after $X and continue trading to see what happens
6. Keep on Pressing until EOD

As there are many possible outcomes in one's trade, same could be in one's trading career and I think it would help to set objectives in place first just like a trade. It helps in a way to keep perspective and let the trading process flow.

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  #147 (permalink)
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FXWulf, what an incredible tale. I hope that now that you solved (?) the 'trading' side of your life, you will find the balance in the 'personal' side of your life. Thanks for sharing the experience.

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dimas View Post
I think that giving up is not gentle way of business way..
It's shameful, trading without success for 2 years. I'm sure there are something errors with your trading strategy..
The best way is sorting and evauating your own strategy, you can find your errors and mistakes when you enter position...
If you able to find and correct them, im sure you can use it as your weapons in forex trade..

You are right, giving up is sign of weakness. Weakness must be throw away from our mind and keep go a head...
I never giving up in forex trade, Yeah i always got loses there but do not make my account wiped..
I will never to give up..
Forever..!!!

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  #149 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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As a newbie I stumbled into this forum a few weeks ago just looking for a journalling spreadsheet.

Since that time I have awakened to the fact that I want to become a trader.

I did not even dare to allow myself to dream of being a trader in the past. What, me?

My starting assumption: it's all about the psychology. And.

It's hard money

My fundamental nature is that of an addict. But I managed to put the drink and drugs down 31 years ago.

This proves to me that I am capable of making and sustaining the changes inside that have to be made.

Meanwhile I embrace that part of me that is an addict, because that is a source of a lot of intense energy, drive, and desire. You might say that I have got the addictive psychology under control.

Now I am going to do it with the trading psychology.

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  #150 (permalink)
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olobay View Post



I saw that video kind of recently. Just nitpicking although I'm sure it's the same idea possibly to many others, but I could never relate to the word "grit" like from that movie and remake "true grit". Preserverance and Willpower are two other words of a similar vein but they imply having to sustain their meanings. And how long can one sustain something difficult to do and call it "grit", "preserverance" or "willpower"?

One time I was watching basketball with a friend who was an avid basketball fan. And we were watching the usual big scorers of each team (could have been Charles Barkley at the time) racking up the points. Then I curiously asked him , "what makes the difference between <this big scorer> and the other players?" where the other players were gifted and strong and skilled athletes as well. And my friend who wasn't well educated , a typical "joe sixpack" type who had only worked in manufacturing said "shEEr detErmination".

That word "determination" spoke to me better. Because it implies some personal goal to be reminded of everyday, something more than just slaving away at something (sometimes for someone else's success (the bosses' profits?) ) and eventually getting exhausted without a personal interest or goal in mind. It also cuts "better" through naysayers (and their effects of discouragement) sometimes people close to oneself, friends , family even coaches and teachers. One has to want it, desire it, and have some fuel for the sustained ("grit")/"determination" from the desire to reach one's goals.

So becoming a profitable trader I kind of compare to a tennis(or golf or whatever highly competitive sport, and individual trading is more like an individual sport) association. There are many pros in the ATP who make a living and a salary year to year as long as they can but never make it into the top 50 ranked players. And who rarely if never get seen in prime-time of the quarterfinals of any tennis tournament. Yet , like trading they are determined to make their living based on their field. And it's a very small percentage of overall players in the world who can get to that level and then like trading, varying profit levels reaching up to the top "earners". Anyways , just my rambling thoughts about it. And what do I know. I am still struggling with my own trading, and have not given up , but have realized trading is extremely competitive like a coliseum with ways to get hurt more than a sporting event or class exam. But my friend's observation of a competitive sport kind of spoke to me more than the TED lady's idea of motivating students.

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  #151 (permalink)
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Cloudy View Post
I saw that video kind of recently. Just nitpicking although I'm sure it's the same idea possibly to many others, but I could never relate to the word "grit" like from that movie and remake "true grit". Preserverance and Willpower are two other words of a similar vein but they imply having to sustain their meanings. And how long can one sustain something difficult to do and call it "grit", "preserverance" or "willpower"?

just off the title alone,


this / these are the things that are taught in the better colleges, and B schools, where you have to scratch together a pile of (sand), plant your flag, and then sell it like it were 105% pure gold...


now that's grit!

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  #152 (permalink)
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The Most Important Question You Can Ask Yourself Today | Mark Manson


Quoting 
Everybody wants what feels good. Everyone wants to live a care-free, happy and easy life, to fall in love and have amazing sex and relationships, to look perfect and make money and be popular and well-respected and admired and a total baller to the point that people part like the Red Sea when you walk into the room.

Everybody wants that -- it's easy to want that.

If I ask you, "What do you want out of life?" and you say something like, "I want to be happy and have a great family and a job I like," it's so ubiquitous that it doesn't even mean anything.

Everyone wants that. So what's the point?

What's more interesting to me is what pain do you want? What are you willing to struggle for? Because that seems to be a greater determinant of how our lives end up.

Everybody wants to have an amazing job and financial independence -- but not everyone is willing to suffer through 60-hour work weeks, long commutes, obnoxious paperwork, to navigate arbitrary corporate hierarchies and the blasé confines of an infinite cubicle hell. People want to be rich without the risk, with the delayed gratification necessary to accumulate wealth.

Everybody wants to have great sex and an awesome relationship -- but not everyone is willing to go through the tough communication, the awkward silences, the hurt feelings and the emotional psychodrama to get there. And so they settle. They settle and wonder "What if?" for years and years and until the question morphs from "What if?" into "What for?" And when the lawyers go home and the alimony check is in the mail they say, "What was it all for?" If not for their lowered standards and expectations for themselves 20 years prior, then what for?

Because happiness requires struggle. You can only avoid pain for so long before it comes roaring back to life.

At the core of all human behavior, the good feelings we all want are more or less the same. Therefore what we get out of life is not determined by the good feelings we desire but by what bad feelings we're willing to sustain.

"Nothing good in life comes easy," we've been told that a hundred times before. The good things in life we accomplish are defined by where we enjoy the suffering, where we enjoy the struggle.

People want an amazing physique. But you don't end up with one unless you legitimately love the pain and physical stress that comes with living inside a gym for hour upon hour, unless you love calculating and calibrating the food you eat, planning your life out in tiny plate-sized portions.

People want to start their own business or become financially independent. But you don't end up a successful entrepreneur unless you find a way to love the risk, the uncertainty, the repeated failures, and working insane hours on something you have no idea whether will be successful or not. Some people are wired for that sort of pain, and those are the ones who succeed.

People want a boyfriend or girlfriend. But you don't end up attracting amazing people without loving the emotional turbulence that comes with weathering rejections, building the sexual tension that never gets released, and staring blankly at a phone that never rings. It's part of the game of love. You can't win if you don't play.

What determines your success is "What pain do you want to sustain?"

I wrote in an article last week that I've always loved the idea of being a surfer, yet I've never made consistent effort to surf regularly. Truth is: I don't enjoy the pain that comes with paddling until my arms go numb and having water shot up my nose repeatedly. It's not for me. The cost outweighs the benefit. And that's fine.

On the other hand, I am willing to live out of a suitcase for months on end, to stammer around in a foreign language for hours with people who speak no English to try and buy a cell phone, to get lost in new cities over and over and over again. Because that's the sort of pain and stress I enjoy sustaining. That's where my passion lies, not just in the pleasures, but in the stress and pain.

There's a lot of self development advice out there that says, "You've just got to want it enough!"

That's only partly true. Everybody wants something. And everybody wants something badly enough. They just aren't being honest with themselves about what they actually want that bad.

If you want the benefits of something in life, you have to also want the costs. If you want the six pack, you have to want the sweat, the soreness, the early mornings, and the hunger pangs. If you want the yacht, you have to also want the late nights, the risky business moves, and the possibility of pissing off a person or ten.

If you find yourself wanting something month after month, year after year, yet nothing happens and you never come any closer to it, then maybe what you actually want is a fantasy, an idealization, an image and a false promise. Maybe you don't actually want it at all.

So I ask you, "How are you willing to suffer?"

Because you have to choose something. You can't have a pain-free life. It can't all be roses and unicorns.

Choose how you are willing to suffer.

Because that's the hard question that matters. Pleasure is an easy question. And pretty much all of us have the same answer.

The more interesting question is the pain. What is the pain that you want to sustain?

Because that answer will actually get you somewhere. It's the question that can change your life. It's what makes me me and you you. It's what defines us and separates us and ultimately brings us together.

So what's it going to be?


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  #153 (permalink)
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From BigMike: "willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable."

No truer words have been said.......

Trading is like poker, the cards read. It's pretty easy to keep score.

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  #154 (permalink)
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pain and suffering to achieve a goal is a lot easier when you're too young to realize that you are in pain and suffering. And the brain plasticity helps as well as the fact that there is less pressure to be an adult and pay bills. Approaching the goals and the learning as play also takes off the edge of suffering for a new goal. How hard must it be for an adult to learn to read and write. I'm assuming just as hard as it was for me as an adult to try to read music, takes years, and I still barely can.

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  #155 (permalink)
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I was ready to give up at one point (about six month ago), but than I got the tutorial "why traders lose" by market geeks, it really helped me to put my reaction to trading losses in perspective.
So many things that I was doing wrong were exactly as he (market geeks guy) said in his tutorial, its like he was talking about me!
I took a while to digest it but afterwards I tried to change some of my negative feelings about my losses and had the guts to try again.
It is working, at least for now!

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  #156 (permalink)
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I've struggled for many years and have considered quitting. I have now decided to stick with the simulator until I can at least be consistent for a few months.

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  #157 (permalink)
Michigan, Jackson
 
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If one makes the same mistake(s) and simply redoubles their effort, they will only dig themselves deeper into the pit of despair. Hard work is useless if your game plan is hardly working.

The first time I wrote a set of rules for my trading plan was 12 years ago when I traded FX. I wrote and wrote and wrote. Endless were the plans but never satisfied I continued to write. When I thought I found a plan that would work, it would only last for a couple of days when I realized I had misjudged my rule-based trading plan.

Having spent good money on having my junk coded over the years, I actually began to learn what worked and what did not work FOR ME. Systems abound and probably would work given time and discipline. But I could not and would not be satisfied until I understood myself as a trader - my style of trading, defined risk, preferred market, chart-style(s) and time frames, platform and IB. Indicators, no indicators. Blackbox, greybox or discretionary trading.

Time spent writing all those apparently useless trading plans were not useless after all. I wrote my own book, produced my own lab reports and learned why I now trade the way I do.

I am always interested in a checking out a "new" indicator but alas, I only trade with one. After all those years, a lot of of "educational expense" I discovered what finally works FOR ME.

Numerous, too many to count, were those times I felt like quitting and not writing another trade scenario then endless hours attempting to perfect it only to be disappointed, again. Yet, I did not quit because I love trading. However, getting away from the game for a day or two helps balance my thinking and presents new trade ideas as the mind cogitates.

Is this an addiction? I suppose anything you really enjoy can become that. Gambling can become an addiction or anything for that matter if you allow yourself to fantasize to the point of always needing it as an escape from reality. Trading is that for some. A sober mind does not allow a trader to fantasize about what has not yet happened. On the other hand, the thought of being financially independent can reignite one out of despondency and doubt.

I can report that my trading plan to date has been in development over the last 3 years as I have stuck with it. It is profitable and increasing with profitability as I have stuck with it. In fact, I am continually amazed at how much trading information I can get from one indicator. No, I can not share that indicator because it has taken 3 years to develop it.

In those early years, thoughts of giving up were common, especially when I lost money and accounts. During those times, I would just re-determine and recommit to the task at hand. It truly was do or die, at least it felt that way at times. Strange to hear someone talk that way but not if you have walked the way of most traders.

Begrudge quitting if you must!

Ken

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  #158 (permalink)
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Ken,

Question for you: did the shoes Micheal Jordan wore truly make him jump higher? Did Tiger win all his majors because of the equipment he played with? talk about how indicators hold some type of "secret" is laughable.

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  #159 (permalink)
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mabr0408 View Post
Ken,

Question for you: did the shoes Micheal Jordan wore truly make him jump higher? Did Tiger win all his majors because of the equipment he played with? talk about how indicators hold some type of "secret" is laughable.

I do not agree with the example. MJ shoes helps him to make better performance, with shity equipment Tiger would not won major games, that is for sure. Ofc you have to be responsible for selecting indicators, putting trades on the table, and you have to agree on this, and believing some "secret" about that the indicators going to win your trades without your supervisoring is make no sense...

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  #160 (permalink)
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matevisky View Post
I do not agree with the example. MJ shoes helps him to make better performance, with shity equipment Tiger would not won major games, that is for sure. Ofc you have to be responsible for selecting indicators, putting trades on the table, and you have to agree on this, and believing some "secret" about that the indicators going to win your trades without your supervisoring is make no sense...

what differentiates MJ's shoes vs his defenders shoes? little to nothing. same thing with indicators. you should be able to trade without them. understanding of context *knowing which participants control the market* is everything.

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  #161 (permalink)
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what made jordan so good was his versatility as a player...he could post you up (depending upon the size of the defender), he could beat you off the dribble (depending upon the quickness of his defender), he could use his perimeter game to shoot over you (depending upon the size of his defender)....notice the theme? same thing applies with trading.....

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  #162 (permalink)
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Yip people first second equicment agree!

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  #163 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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mabr0408 View Post
what made jordan so good was his versatility as a player...he could post you up (depending upon the size of the defender), he could beat you off the dribble (depending upon the quickness of his defender), he could use his perimeter game to shoot over you (depending upon the size of his defender)....notice the theme? same thing applies with trading.....

In trading, all you really need is one edge.
I understand lots of different strategies and patterns but I basically only trade one of them.
I trade oil, gold, natural gas, some currencies, some sugar, but mostly indices.
The pattern I trade is the same in every one of those instruments.

I'm going to bet Jordan's dunking percentage was much higher than his 3-point percentage.
i.e. he didn't miss very many dunks but he missed threes, although not that often. I'm also
going to bet his free throw % was higher than his jump shot % but his dunking % was still higher
than all of them. So if Michael could place himself in a position without defenders every shot, he would
pick the dunk.

Trading is not like basketball where you are actively participating and throwing up shots, dunks,
3-pointers without rest. In trading, you get to sit back and pick and choose the shot that is right for you.
We don't know the outcome of the shot beforehand, but our past performance says that when we do take
this shot, we make it most of the time. So we pick that shot (pattern) to roll the dice.

Everyone's strategy is different. I'm a high winning % (70) average profit factor (3) kind of trader.
I'm not the 3 ball kind of trader. I'm the consistent, make most of my shots kind of trader. I sit back
and throw the chips on the table. I don't have to dribble past any defenders. I don't have to shoot 3's.
Why shoot a jump shot that is worth 2, when a lay in or dunk is also worth 2 (and much easier to make)?
I'm not a scalper either as my average winning trade is around 100 ticks. My average losing trade is about
the same but my consistency more than makes up for those equivalents.

P/L shown in ticks for the month of January./
This month is actually a little better than my average with 81% winning and 3.3 Profit Factor

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  #164 (permalink)
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Massive l View Post
In trading, all you really need is one edge.
I understand lots of different strategies and patterns but I basically only trade one of them.
I trade oil, gold, natural gas, some currencies, some sugar, but mostly indices.
The pattern I trade is the same in every one of those instruments.

I'm going to bet Jordan's dunking percentage was much higher than his 3-point percentage.
i.e. he didn't miss very many dunks but he missed threes, although not that often. I'm also
going to bet his free throw % was higher than his jump shot % but his dunking % was still higher
than all of them. So if Michael could place himself in a position without defenders every shot, he would
pick the dunk.

Trading is not like basketball where you are actively participating and throwing up shots, dunks,
3-pointers without rest. In trading, you get to sit back and pick and choose the shot that is right for you.
We don't know the outcome of the shot beforehand, but our past performance says that when we do take
this shot, we make it most of the time. So we pick that shot (pattern) to roll the dice.

Everyone's strategy is different. I'm a high winning % (70) average profit factor (3) kind of trader.
I'm not the 3 ball kind of trader. I'm the consistent, make most of my shots kind of trader. I sit back
and throw the chips on the table. I don't have to dribble past any defenders. I don't have to shoot 3's.
Why shoot a jump shot that is worth 2, when a lay in or dunk is also worth 2 (and much easier to make)?
I'm not a scalper either as my average winning trade is around 100 ticks. My average losing trade is about
the same but my consistency more than makes up for those equivalents.

P/L shown in ticks for the month of January./
This month is actually a little better than my average with 81% winning and 3.3 Profit Factor

great post and alot of value added here. You dont have to be a superstar to make $$$...role players do just fine

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  #165 (permalink)
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mabr0408 View Post
great post and alot of value added here. You dont have to be a superstar to make $$$...role players do just fine

The market is counting on the fact that you will try to trade like a superstar. It's same concept people experience when they walk into a casino.

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  #166 (permalink)
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mabr0408 View Post
what made jordan so good was his versatility as a player...he could post you up (depending upon the size of the defender), he could beat you off the dribble (depending upon the quickness of his defender), he could use his perimeter game to shoot over you (depending upon the size of his defender)....notice the theme? same thing applies with trading.....

Except learning/mastering various trading methods/patterns to the point where you have an established edge for each is 20 times more difficult. Most people aren't even good at one.

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  #167 (permalink)
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I am new here Massive I.
Can you elaborate on your strategy or please point out on the forum where its at, if at all?

Searched did not see anything...

Kudos on your work,very good. Always open to new ideas.

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  #168 (permalink)
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What a great thread this spun off to. I love soaking up all the different perspectives, thoughts and journeys people have gone through.

Firstly, @FXwulf - what a gut wrenching story. Thank you sincerely for sharing. It's almost like a true story version of Breaking Bad. I'm honestly happy you never pulled that trigger, and that you cracked the code in the end. I also really hope you manage to patch things up with your lost soulmate now that you're back in control of your lifestyle. Even just being friends would at least let you be a part of your kids life.

To answer BM's original post, my belief is that not everyone is cut out to trade, far from it. We are all different, made up of thousands if not millions of variables. I view the human psyche like a fine chemical cocktail made with thousands of ingredients, some inherent in your genes while some evolved based on your experiences growing up. Depending on your unique chemical composition, and your ability to adapt, trading might be right- and it might not.

The more i explore trading, the more i uncover that this truly is a very difficult profession to master, and I'm convinced it takes a certain personality/attributes to succeed. Stamina/Grit/Willpower is no doubt one prerequisite, but i believe there are many others, equally important, that factor into it. An example: Being "stubborn" can be great, if it makes you re-evaluate your approach and if you are a creative enough problem-solver to come up with new angles and viable ideas. Being stubborn is terrible if it only keeps you banging your head into the solid concrete wall and repeating the same mistakes.

The harsh truth is that not everyone can become Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan. That doesnt mean people shouldnt try, and give it their best! Because even if you only end up as Phil Mickelson or Shaquille O'Neal, life can still be all you ever dreamed of.

Then again, some people will simply never be good at golf, or basketball, or whichever endevour that requires a certain skill-development. The learning curve is long, some will be lucky enough to progress at a good rate. Some however will never. So wether its golf or trading, do yourself the favour of regularly looking into the mirror and honestly evaluate your situation, outlooks and likelyhood of reaching a level of success which you can be content with. Never sacrifice anything except time, and perhaps a few dollars. However dont invest money in "mentors" or indicators(that more often than not are stolen off futures.io (formerly BMT) elite section and rebranded)- thats just the lazy mans attempt at taking shortcuts. It wont do you much good, unless the mentor is truly exceptional. In fact, i'd be willing to say if thats your approach, then you are on the wrong path.

Get an Elite membership and read every opinion and view you can find, then pick your own truths after hours and hours of trial and error. Explore all the charts you can find on all timeframes, from 2 range to monthly's. Watch the webinars- every one of them will have some valid information that will make you grow as a trader. Try all the indicators you can, and notice how subjective they are in reality, and how you end up telling yourself "oh snap! i should have listened to this indy and not that one" or "this timeframe and not that one"- every time you eat a loss. Read a few good books, but be careful not to spend more time on theory rather than practice. After all, where would Tiger be today if he had spent more time on books than out on the golf course? Go absolutely crazy on SIM. Try any strategy or theory you come across that seems interesting. Watch the webinars, again - they will make more sense this time and you'll pick up even more pointers and ideas. Overtrade as much as you can until you could place trades in your sleep. Make as many mistakes as you can!! It's a fact that the strongest way for your brain to learn is by making and reviewing mistakes. Want to accelerate your learning rate? Keep a detailed journal, and revisit it regularly to review your mistakes and identify good decisions. Start developing your intuition- and start focusing on what that gut feeling is telling you. Do that until your gut is more right than any indicator ever made. Why? Because the market is a living breathing creature. In other words: it is dynamic. Very dynamic. That's why an indy may nail 10 / 10 trades one hour, then 0 / 10 the next. I firmly believe your intuition can become your best edge. Indicators are just frameworks to wrap around it, to paint a picture that "makes sense" to you and tells your gut what it needs to know.

At least, thats my theory, for now. And i should put a big fat disclaimer somewhere stating that i'm by no accounts a successful veteran trader. So these are only my current opinions based on my one year of researching.

Regardless, always make sure you have your "real life stop losses" in check. The journey should be almost as rewarding as arriving at the actual destination. Protect your sanity and quality of life at all costs. Never let the pursuit of success cost you happiness. Never let it go so far as some of the situations described here. Never let it get to where you fear telling yourself or loved ones the truth. Nothing is more important than the happiness and health of who you love and yourself.


Best of luck in life and finding happiness, regardless of your approaches.
Daniel

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  #169 (permalink)
London + UK
 
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Time to give up when you start to erode on your capital, never do this job if you can make money in your real account. If you want to train use a demo account. Its important I think to know when to stop when you're ahead as well as behind.

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  #170 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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phyrb View Post
Hi,

Yeh the guy who lost 50K over two years does not seem like he is cut out for trading. However I know alot of traders who did exactly that 10-15 years ago and are now super successful in the markets. It has made me wonder if it is almost a prerequisite to lose alot before you can be truly profitable. As long as you learn from it and change !

Russell

For me, I made the same mistakes over and over and over again. Everyone does.
The only way to avoid is if you have a professional standing next to you
with a meter stick in hand, whacking you in the head every time
you were about to do something stupid.

Even then...that might not work. Human nature can't help itself.

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  #171 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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Massive l View Post
For me, I made the same mistakes over and over and over again. Everyone does.
The only way to avoid is if you have a professional standing next to you
with a meter stick in hand

is called one's OWN journal here on futures.io (formerly BMT)

GFIs1

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  #172 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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GFIs1 View Post
is called one's OWN journal here on futures.io (formerly BMT)

GFIs1

I have a journal here and several others on another site. Didn't matter. Still screwed up

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  #173 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
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GFIs1 View Post
is called one's OWN journal here on futures.io (formerly BMT)

GFIs1

If only it worked that way.

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  #174 (permalink)
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  #175 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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phyrb View Post
Hi, I agree to a point for sure! However, if you take each mistake that you make and make a 100% solid rule that is not flexible EVER that part of your trading is to NEVER repeat that mistake again. Perhaps you can slowly learn from your mistakes.
One example I have is if I am playing a short term trade on momentum - if the stock breaks the 4 ema then i sell. Without fail!!! From experience I found that more times than not, if it breaks the 4 day ema then its best to sell.

I couldn't do it. I think it was part of the learning process.
Now, I don't have much problem following my rules.
There I two I broke in particular. One was waiting for the setup that produces the best results.
For some reason, I just wanted to see what would happen so I would deviate from
that often and trade what I felt like would be a winner.
The second rule I broke, although not often, was cut the loser.
You don't need to break this rule too many times before you go broke. (and I did).

I know it's been said a million times, but I'll say it again; trading is a journey.
New traders need to understand that it took me about 4 years of trading/watching
the markets constantly to finally be able to nail my rules and follow them without
a second thought. It takes a lot of time, to say the least. Others may have a different experience,
but that is mine.

I've gone from making a good deal of money and thinking I can do this for the rest of my life
to losing a great deal and second guessing myself. I didn't think about giving up but it made
me feel as if I might not have what it takes. But somehow, each those times that I felt I
might not make it, I overcame.

Mark Douglas may have described me as a boom and bust trader. I would agree with him.
After decent winning streaks and big profits, I would become overly confident and feel I
could turn any trade into a winner. So I had the mindset of expecting a winner. When it
wasn't, I would hold because I couldn't believe it was not going my way. It would drain
me all the way back to breakeven or even worse.

I now understand that and am able to monitor myself when I start making big profits.
I'm able to use self control and wait for the desired setup(s) and not forcing
my thoughts/desires onto the market. As mentioned, it's taken an incredible amount of dedication
and a ton of self reflection to get to this point and I'm still not where I want to be as a trader.

So when you think about giving up, remember that this is a journey and the true test of
a trader happens over 5 years, 10 years, and longer.

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  #176 (permalink)
Toronto, Canada
 
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I was searching for risk management courses on the forum and somehow ended up here, and I’m glad I did. I read all 18 pages, thank you everyone for posting.

I am very new to trading, got interested in this about three years ago. Like most, I have done some very stupid things. When I first started everything seemed so easy. I thought I could make millions. Found a few companies mentioned on Wallstreet Journal report and without much thinking bought some shares. Made a few hundred bucks within a week and was blown away that this could be so easy. Then eventually I bought some penny stocks, made a few thousand dollars within hours and got really greedy. When it dipped I bought more, and eventually lost a lot. I was speechless and didn’t know what to do.
Eventually revenge kicked in and I was trying to make it up but lost even more. I guess many could relate to this… Then I read something about stock options, and it got me really interested. I learned everything about options on CBOT website (they have great online courses). I did make back a few thousands but eventually lost it again. It went on for about year and a half. At a certain point I said to myself that I will stop and will not trade until I learn enough and feel confident enough in my decisions. I was disappointed and embarrassed in myself to the point that I didn’t want to do my taxes and the end of the year and report losses, looking like an idiot. Even my tax guy said I should stop doing it…

I transferred all my money back to my bank account and did not touch trading for a year now. Been doing lots of reading, trying to find something that made sense to me. Luckily I realized early enough that no indicators work and that there is no holy grail. I did watch lots of webinars on this forum and what really make sense to me is Market / Volume Profile. Particularly what FT71 does. I read CME market profile guidebook, and now halfway through Mind Over Markets book which FT71 recommended. And finally I feel like it makes sense to me, I am slowly starting to understand how the market actually works.

What I’m trying to say is that I did loose a large sum of money, but I do not give up. Trading and everything about financial market truly inspires me. It is my dream to become a professional trader and because I am still young (24), no family and enough time, I hope to be able to achieve this.

The biggest fear I have is that I am not sure whether I am on the right track or not. There is so much information available online that it simply overwhelms you. I noticed some said in this thread that you need to have a mentor, someone to guide you in the right direction. Some said that you need to talk to professional traders that do it for a living. How do you find people like that? Is it necessary? Is it true that only books are not enough?

Unfortunately my current career is nowhere near related to trading and I don’t have any friends in finance. The internet and futures.io (formerly BMT) are the only two places I can seek for answers, but as you all know some of the information on the web can be very misleading.

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  #177 (permalink)
Los Angeles, CA
 
 
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Great thread and given me a lot of "food for thought".

I appreciate all of you taking the time to share your very personal stories/experiences. Quite moving.

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  #178 (permalink)
Birmingham UK
 
 
Posts: 336 since May 2014
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8 years in, okay not traded at all for some of those years others barely at all and although profitable at the moment ( could slip back, have done before ) and although my setups work really well most of the time, my entry and exit always feel like educated guesses which to be honest makes it really hard to pull the trigger so I'm leaving 100's of trades on the table each week.


So over the years, have I wanted to give up ? Have I sat there for hours looking at charts thinking this is all random there is no way to profit from this, OHHHH YES!!! but I haven't, cause I like the challenge and the reward if cracked should be worth it ( If my sanity holds out LOL )


So don't give up, but treat it as a hobby and don't risk more than hobby money, at my lowest I was only down 1/5th approx that I spent on Mountain Bikes over the same time!


Profitable for me, is at that time, account is going up, don't buy into the 2 or 20years of evidence, lifes just to short for that.

I don't believe in a single method, that you follow the rules and trade for ever ( unless the rules handle varying markets I guess ), Markets change you need to have the experience to adapt and over come, tweaking the method and using the best market ( DAX currently, GBPAUD before ) which is available at the time.



I hope 1 day it'll become easy, but I fear it never will and if it did I'd get bored and find a new hobby anyway LOL

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  #179 (permalink)
New York, USA
 
 
Posts: 80 since Jun 2011
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I gave up after the first 1 1/2 years of massive losses. I only bought options once every week or 2. It was good because it was like trading in slow motion. When I was going to trade them, i felt all the crazy emotions build up in me leading up to the trade, but the price wasn't changing much over the course of time that I was experiencing all these crazy emotions. So it was showing me how screwed up I was since there was nearly no action but I was overreacting.

I did that for around 6 months. Worked out some of it, then got back into daytrading. The break helped but only partly. There were a few hundred other things I had to go thru....

It's been 3.5 years after the 6 mo options break

Another part of this is that it was totally new to me and anything totally new that isn't super simple takes a lot of time, effort, expense, and experience.

Even now, I'm at minimum risk since I still make an error that is preventable, but my account is slowly increasing to where I can afford more risk, but until i feel it's time I remain at minimum.

GL

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  #180 (permalink)
Hanover, Germany
 
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along the line of why it really isn't all that bad to just quit after x years.

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  #181 (permalink)
Warsaw Poland
 
 
Posts: 13 since Jul 2014

Don't you get a feeling that there is now way to assume you will get constant profits from publicly open market?

I mean that we have open market that anyone can trade. We can find ineffective behaviors that we can use and profit. However there is no warranty that no one else will find this ineffectiveness and use it to it's own profits. If that will happen - this ineffectiveness will diminish. Due to the fact that millions of people are looking at this market and ability to profit makes it hard to achieve long term profits. If you even find one way to profit, you can't be sure it will disappear tomorrow, next year.


That's kind of a downer.

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  #182 (permalink)
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AgileQuant View Post
Don't you get a feeling that there is now way to assume you will get constant profits from publicly open market?

I mean that we have open market that anyone can trade. We can find ineffective behaviors that we can use and profit. However there is no warranty that no one else will find this ineffectiveness and use it to it's own profits. If that will happen - this ineffectiveness will diminish. Due to the fact that millions of people are looking at this market and ability to profit makes it hard to achieve long term profits. If you even find one way to profit, you can't be sure it will disappear tomorrow, next year.


That's kind of a downer.

There is no way to know that I won't die before I finish writing this post. But, so long as I remain healthy enough - I will live.

The same is true in trading. So long as I am a better trader than others, I can make money.

Mike

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  #183 (permalink)
Dallas, Texas
 
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AgileQuant View Post
Don't you get a feeling that there is now way to assume you will get constant profits from publicly open market?

I mean that we have open market that anyone can trade. We can find ineffective behaviors that we can use and profit. However there is no warranty that no one else will find this ineffectiveness and use it to it's own profits. If that will happen - this ineffectiveness will diminish. Due to the fact that millions of people are looking at this market and ability to profit makes it hard to achieve long term profits. If you even find one way to profit, you can't be sure it will disappear tomorrow, next year.


That's kind of a downer.

My mentor taught me this a few years ago, long term it doesn't matter what others returns are or if they are better trader than you. Who really knows the behaviors of others? Why someone bought or shorted a stock. It causes someone to question legitimate reasons (ie good earnings) for a trade. Only thing that matters is what you're investing your hard earned money in, and there are companies still making money selling their products and services.

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  #184 (permalink)
Budapest, Hungary
 
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I would say don't put yourself in a difficult situation when you have to decide if you MUST quit trading or not.

There is no point (at all) to risk live capital until you can make money papertrading.

You can argue that it's different than live trading but do you think pilot trainees argue when they are put on a sim and crash it?! Is any of those trainees given a chance to fly a REAL airplane?

If you don't have the discipline to trade without real risk what are the chances you will have it when there is real responsibility?

-----

Just to make your time worthwhile: answer this simple question: HOW EXACTLY are you going to pull out money from the market on a day-to-day / week-to-week basis? You won't make money until you have the answer.

-----

Overcoming the problem of real-risk anxiety: first of all you don't necessarly have to risk your own money. There are plenty of prop firms. And there are many jobs with much higher responibility (money wise).

If you are not fortunate enought to be selected a prop trader you can trade your own money without putting too much risk on the table. After you have proven yourself in sim, that you are not going to blow up, put 5k in an account and some extra for margin. If you are going to make money and not lose it, you don't need more. And if you don't get the same results as in sim; ask yourself very soon: WHY.

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  #185 (permalink)
Budapest, Hungary
 
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On the other hand if you are a broke-ass gambler; quitting won't be an option but the only way.

You qualify as a gambler if you don't have a trading plan or not follow it in every point (most importantly defined edge and defined risk tolerance)

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  #186 (permalink)
Budapest, Hungary
 
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However it is better to quit if:

- you have reached your financial goal (there are too many horror stories of losing a 10M+ account; there is just no point in risking at this point - also if you have the freedom, just live your life outside of virtual reality; I know it is hard to quite if you are successful but you can find meaning for your life for example in raising your kids aswell...)

- you have more to lose than just money (family depending on you)

- health issues (mental or physical)

- time (or emotions) are more important to you than money (hey isn't the same apply to wh0res?!) - just wondering if you can really be in a romantic relationship and fully live your emotions while you are trading for a living. Any thoughts on this?

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  #187 (permalink)
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Yuri57 View Post
Just wondering if you can really be in a romantic relationship and fully live your emotions while you are trading for a living. Any thoughts on this?

Good question! I would be interested to read comments on this as well

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  #188 (permalink)
Belo Horizonte, Brazil
 
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Thanks to all of you for sharing those stories here on the Thread. I'm starting my journey in trading and all of what was said here is a big learning experience for sure. I'm glad I found the forum and that it has been able to provide me with quality information. On the past weeks I've been reading stuff and watching webinars on psychology of trading (haven't started studying strategies yet) and it just confirms what I've observed in other things in life: your mental state plays a big role on how your career will develop and all the external factors surrounding you are of big importance as well.

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  #189 (permalink)
Philadelphia
 
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R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
Please visit this thread for more information.
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  #190 (permalink)
Vizag+india
 
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Initial few years Few account wipe outs ( holy grail search, change system, indicators).
Was a breakeven trader after that for 8 months.
Turned to be a profitable trader, with little profits. At this time left my day job and started trading full time.
Had been trading full time for past 1 year. Many loop holes seen , many short coming corrected.
Was not a profitable trader, This was more to do with
1> Increase trading lot size. (Psychology)
2> Unable to focus for longer duration.
3> Improper data ( I am not blaming others here, it was my fault took me few months to figure out my data vendor was not accurate.)
4> Market understanding. Each person is different, for me to be very comfortable a big level picture of markets how they function is very much essential. All I cared was how the trading instrument was trading.

What turned out to be good during this tenure as Trader:

1> Understood more about myself.
2> No big losses. Lost 8% of the capital allocated for trading.
3> Many ah-haa moments seen during full time trading.
4> Best days of my life. Enjoyed trading though was not successful .
5> Practice meditation, this has become habit , which I will continue.
6> Physical fitness has improved.

Current Plan:
1>Joined day job back
2> Keep working on Trading.

Plan for future:
Will be continuing day job for next 1 year.
Build some more corpus amount.
Loved experience of being trader.Back to Full time Trading in next 10-11 months.

Big learning so far as saying goes "When student is ready TEACHER will appear"
Many of the ah-ah moments experienced where being screamed out loud in this forum, I guess I was not ready.
We cannot rush in this profession, it has to be nurtured with time.
Big secret is survival. You have to survive long enough to understand and play this game.

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  #191 (permalink)
Birmingham UK
 
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Itchymoku View Post

Like it, and I guess the other moral is you never know how thin the floor is underneath you.

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  #192 (permalink)
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ratfink View Post
Like it, and I guess the other moral is you never know how thin the floor is underneath you.

Always looking at the bright side....

Bob.

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  #193 (permalink)
NYC + NY / USA
 
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Perhaps its not time to give up yet....you may say,

but then again, how do you keep from wearing out your trading buddies, due to the "alone time" in each one's offices?


ok, I suffer from that, and I am man enough to admit it!

are you grown enough to recognize, and admit that too?

what are some solutions?

two that I have found are:

1) very low volume TV exclusively on either BloombergTV, CNBC, or (the regrettably overly political) Fox Business News channels

2) subscription to the Squawk Box services

3) participation (infrequently, and especially not while trade stalking or in a trade) a trading session / room / Skype room


what solutions have you found work?

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  #194 (permalink)
Birmingham UK
 
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bobwest View Post
Always looking at the bright side....

Bob.

Ha! And I didn't even mention anything about the roof falling in...

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  #195 (permalink)
Warsaw Poland
 
 
Posts: 13 since Jul 2014


Big Mike View Post
There is no way to know that I won't die before I finish writing this post. But, so long as I remain healthy enough - I will live.

The same is true in trading. So long as I am a better trader than others, I can make money.

That's true.
I would argue with statement that you have to be better than others.
You can't be only better than 50% of other traders. You have to be better then 50% of money flowing the market.
So what if you are better then 100 of traders with 1 million USD trading power, if one prop trader from Goldman can have 500 millions under his management and can wipe profits from those 100 traders.
So one trader with a lot of assets can clear effectiveness that your looking for, when 100 traders with less money can't do it.

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  #196 (permalink)
Sydney, NSW Australia
 
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THanks for the post BM! I wanted trading success so bad I quit my flourishing military career and dumped by unsupportive girlfriend. I told myself I was not going to get a job and that I must succeed no matter what. These days I'm reaping the rewards and I have a better girlfriend heehhe.

Putting yourself in a corner where you have no choice to succeed is one way to do it.

As Tony Robins said, you must have narrow focus to be really good at what you do. Impossible to master everything.

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  #197 (permalink)
San Tan Valley, AZ/USA
 
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I'm glad I came back.

I started out, while in the middle of my education program, and couldn't focus on both. I quit trading because I fit the description of someone who should have quit.

I've finished my program, I work a stable job that supports me and my family, and am seeking the greater challenge.

I don't need the money, as I could retire five times over. Something I read in this thread defined my desires for me: risk management, human psychology, and strategy implementation.

They aren't different, but rather they are limbs of what constitutes trading.

Anyways, I'm an amateur, and look forward to losing all my money

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  #198 (permalink)
hong kong
 
 
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Most of my trading profits goes to paying commissions and fees, it seems whatever I do, my profitability before fees is 50/50

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  #199 (permalink)
Russia,Khabarovsk
 
Experience: Beginner
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Big Mike View Post
I get a lot of emails and PM's from people seeking advice. Usually they've been losing money and don't really know what to do next. But I received a particular letter recently that made me want to write this post.

What are some of the characteristics of people who are losing money:

- No plan
- No way to measure themselves (they just focus on net profit)
- No consistent method, jumping from one trading room or indicator to the other
- Unrealistic expectations
- Unwilling to do the work required
- Not in a position in their life to make trading a priority

There are many more.

For every good trader out there, there are 100 more who think they can just copy someone else's method and start making money or join some trading room or download some expensive set of indicators, and be profitable.

Most of these guys have completely unrealistic expectations. They expect to take $10,000 and turn it into $100,000 at the end of the year, for example, even though they have no track record of performance or gains.

These people have no plan. They constantly blame their computer, their trading platform, their broker, their wife, their kids for missing trades or mistakes during a trade. They have no idea what to focus on or where to start.

And worse, most of them are unwilling to do the work. Yes, there are people for which that does not apply who are truly trying their best. But they are few and far between. Most people that are struggling aren't even willing to maintain a journal. Most people aren't willing to set realistic expectations. Most people aren't willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

On top of that, most of these guys aren't in a position in their life to even give trading a chance. Examples would be that they just lost their job. That is the worse time to start trading. Other examples would be that they have a job but no real savings, no money to burn in trading education expenses (and I don't mean from a trading room or buying a product). Worse still, many of these guys have no support from their wife or girlfriend because as you can imagine, they are losing money and also spending a lot of "free time" with trading instead of with their loved ones or kids. This is an impossible situation to put yourself in and expect good results.

So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on.

In fact, a lot of times my advice to these guys is to move on. Stop trading. Let's be real, if you are undercapitalized, unwilling to do the real work, and have no support from your family -- you aren't in a position to be a good trader.

But I also have to be honest, some times when I tell someone to stop trading, what I am really wanting them to do is come back and tell me NO, they will not stop, they are going to make it work. I mean if you really want this, then fight for it. But as I've said countless times before -- willpower alone is not enough to make you profitable.

We know that most people "give up" once they blow all or a significant portion of their initial deposit at a broker. This usually happens in less than 90 days according to brokers I've talked to. Most of these people aren't a part of any trading forum, and those that are, most of them are not participating, do not have a journal, have not taken time to ask questions or formulate a plan, etc. Again let's be honest: if anyone had taken the time to formulate a plan and prepare, they would not have allowed themselves to blow an account in 90 days.

For the rest, the ones that are members of futures.io (formerly BMT), I find that the overwhelming (close to 100%) of people that are struggling are the ones that have zero posts. I've come to look at this as an important metric. The ones that are uninvolved in the forum, for whatever reason, are going to be at a big disadvantage in my opinion. They lack a support network but also lack the benefit of accountability which is so critically important.

I've also found that these struggling traders are ones that haven't participated in any webinars. So that means they are unwilling to put in the time. They spend all their time, instead, on downloading indicators or searching for a new trading room to call trades.

OK so let me end by putting this out there... when is it the appropriate time to give up? Let's be honest, not everyone is cut out for trading. In fact, if we are honest, very few are. So it's cruel to string some of these guys along, it would be better for them to help them identify early on they don't have what it takes and they should move on.

Mike

So true,one should crush all the stumbling blocks emphasised in this post,one after another.And then some.

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  #200 (permalink)
Drogheda/Ireland
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: ProSpreads, CQG
Trading: FGBL, Stocks
 
jawakow's Avatar
 
Posts: 15 since Mar 2013
Thanks: 1 given, 7 received

In my opinion traders starting their carrier from M5 and lower timeframe, but why they won't start from Daily/Weekly first to build some record and confidence? It's harder to blown account on higher timeframe, also there is more time to make a decision. There is dozen of thousands markets available.

Just my 2 cents.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

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