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Time to Give Up
Started:March 27th, 2013 (04:47 PM) by Big Mike Views / Replies:56,526 / 429
Last Reply:December 6th, 2016 (10:27 PM) Attachments:4

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Time to Give Up

Old August 2nd, 2013, 11:16 AM   #131 (permalink)
Mate
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Patrick S View Post
We need to see 7 screen shots.
One for each month of the 6 and the 7th should be the grand finale

I will record every trade in the journal. For old ones there is no use to post, most of the cases it is comon understandable one way trades. If after the release there is a cross over on the 21sma than take... Etc...

But thx for care!!!

Máté
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 12:15 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Anyway, we are going forward from the original topic which gave me the idea to ask. I believe there are point and situation in your life when you have to stop work and start trading with full time and heart even if you are not ready fully. Yes it could hear out a stupid justification but as Mike mentioned in the begining the failure could be that you dont have time to soend on learning trading
In my scenario I am pretty sure about it. And yes we can debat that this is not the scenario which is the best pratice, thats why I raised that issue. Can you imagine that you have to stop working and start trading because your working obligitaion stoping you to become better trader?

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Old August 2nd, 2013, 12:46 PM   #133 (permalink)
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matevisky View Post
Anyway, we are going forward from the original topic which gave me the idea to ask. I believe there are point and situation in your life when you have to stop work and start trading with full time and heart even if you are not ready fully. Yes it could hear out a stupid justification but as Mike mentioned in the begining the failure could be that you dont have time to soend on learning trading
In my scenario I am pretty sure about it. And yes we can debat that this is not the scenario which is the best pratice, thats why I raised that issue. Can you imagine that you have to stop working and start trading because your working obligitaion stoping you to become better trader?

Now I understand what you wanted to say with your first post

Although, I think that @BigMike had something else in mind when he created this thread (trader already started and has no success yet), you are right regarding the beginning of the journey. At some point you have to take the risk and try it, just as every entrepreneur. I did it the same way.

I've once heard a motivational speaker say (I'm paraphrasing), "there are 2 types of decisions…" … I thought to myself "yes, right ones and wrong ones" … but he continued "… "those you take decisively and those you do not take decisively" … … he pointed to the fact that the decisiveness of your decisions makes the difference in the outcomes of your decisions. Obviously, just deciding and saying affirmative sentences is not enough, but the decisiveness is shown in succeeding actions (also, doing what is necessary to overcome hurdles, etc.).

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Old September 4th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Trading is like to head for a new travel route

Hi @FXwulf and @matevisky

Really interesting to see adventures in the zero sum game that one can ride through.
Not giving any advice here - as I am not mentoring here - but reflecting on some important
points. Full time trading or part time trading is NOT really important.
Instead - I would like to bring up some picture that came into my mind when reading the
touching stories here:
"If I am a adventurer to cross a desert with a special vehicule in the next 3 weeks I need
to find proper tools, getting good advice from other people that did the trip already, to
train to get into the right mindset to fulfill some hidden and unplanned exercices. Finally
we need to make the plan for getting through and a emergency plan if something fails!
So lets start and see how that trip - which starts with the first step - will develop."

Trading is not far from the above story.
One has to find the mindset on how to cross uncertain fields - with many obstacles.
Then every decision made can decide on how we can succeed or fail.
In other words - if one is well prepared, well equipped and with a good margin getting
on that trip - there is a chance for success.

Maybe the desert is not your destiny - or the time is not good to start the journey - then
we have to step back and wait for the best moment / plan to show up.

In my closer friends circle I am aware of one trader who was for his own company trading
gold and currencies - as a hedge for his daily business. As his business was running very
well - his trading was a total loss. He had quite a lot of trading experience - but the decisions
he made were all very counterproductive. At the very end of a 5 year trading time and money
investment he was putting all aside and concentrated on his original daily business - all
without any view on currencies or gold prices.
So he succeeded and today he has reached his goals.

To come to an end - there is only one thing to consider: find your instrument which might
become your second skin.
If it suits you - you will be prepared for any adventure turning up!
If not - concentrate on your old skills you were already successful with.

GFIs1

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Old September 5th, 2013, 08:09 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
But trying your hardest is a requirement.

All the floor trpostaders I've talked to have had a terrible time transitioning to screen trading. On the floor there was an edge by simply being there, you could buy the bid and sell the ask and pocket the spread from my understanding. That particular edge does not exist for screen trading, but perhaps there are other edges that do. For example as an individual trader, professional or not, you are more nimble than an institutional trader which can give you an advantage.

Mike


I have tried to explain in concise words that very same reality. Simply put the expensive floor trader's advantage and the barriers to entry provided an edge worth paying for and produced a very comfortable living that doesn't translate in this two dimensional world of ECN's and ECN trading. The preceptory inputs are no where near the same level, even when you add in a current squawk or TV news source to your trading hours.

Persistence yes but belief in yourself and edge even more so is required to continue in the face if less than desired trading results, whether or not you journal online, offline, notebook paper eith chary markups or other methods used.

Sharing is more than caring, however, post sharing if ones templates and approach is 3x more valuable. Whether that takes form of a temporary trading group over skype or webex or omnovia or some other method still remains essential not optional or view with such skeptism as mentioned in the prior posts by you and @wldman.

I've had both success and helped many others freely and we're still friends for the most part as long as they're still "in the game". I've made some of the best contacts as a result of such efforts with the likes of @Zondor, @ztr, @PandaWarrior , and others both still with us and some not.

I can only offer same going fwd by pm and and interview, to see if one's disposition and temperament are appropriate to these trading groups. Associative trumps self deception.

I have come to understand that there are intangibles that forums like futures.io (formerly BMT) threads have filled to the success of many traders. Thanks Mike, all jokes aside, and don't abandon the good 'ole USA anytime soon (I hope to visit Ecuador as a result of your posts).

I say to those honest with themselves, not to give up and work the angle they've paid so much time and resources to obtain. Stay at trading while remaining humble to accept the positive results you've obtained and focus heavily upon maximizing and scaling up on those gains. Simply put, believe in yourself and give yourself a chance. Attend those replay and live seminars; be open minded to learning and relearning. Accept that no matter how educated one becomes there is still more to learn, because these markets are traded by people evidently more intelligent than oneself (that lump takes a while to swallow)

ATB. (all the best)!


((sent from Android phone and small screen and keyboard --- iow, it was just that important to add my two cents to the discussion including typos; but you may want to cash that in and ask for change back)


Last edited by kronie; September 5th, 2013 at 10:59 AM.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:54 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Hi Kronie

@kronie

Hey man, it is very difficult to be all about sharing templates and trade specifics. It takes a tremendous amount of time. When I have seen it done it is usually by someone who wants a "following" for edification or for marketing purposes.

So if I was in a position to have a desire to share like that the motivation for me would be simply to help, if asked, to the best of my ability. Where that kind of thing goes wrong for me is that you invariably stir up a list of detractors that ruin things...or you get the attention of people who have not and will not do the necessary work to succeed. Sometimes people say that they really want to learn but their questions reveal that they do not listen.

Just last night there was an issue where a respected member had posted about a monthly result that was met with great month...how about last year.

So I am pretty sure that authentic "mentorship" gets thwarted pretty quick.

Past that good trading results come from something other than the secret indies with the magic settings. Good trading is born of discretion or what could be called experiential knowledge applied with specific discipline. That is NEVER what people seek. The fast track to easy riches in trading is of the same myth as the magic indie and secret setting.

So to a guy like me...when someone asks for help and won't listen it becomes a waste of time very quickly.

Happy to clarify any of that especially if I missed the point.

Dan


Last edited by wldman; September 5th, 2013 at 02:00 PM.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #137 (permalink)
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wldman View Post
@kronie

Hey man, it is very difficult to be all about sharing templates and trade specifics. It takes a tremendous amount of time. When I have seen it done it is usually by someone who wants a "following" for edification or for marketing purposes.

So if I was in a position to have a desire to share like that the motivation for me would be simply to help, if asked, to the best of my ability. Where that kind of thing goes wrong for me is that you invariably stir up a list of detractors that ruin things...or you get the attention of people who have not and will not do the necessary work to succeed. Sometimes people say that they really want to learn but their questions reveal that they do not listen.

Just last night there was an issue where a respected member had posted about a monthly result that was met with great month...how about last year.

So I am pretty sure that authentic "mentorship" gets thwarted pretty quick.

Past that good trading results come from something other than the secret indies with the magic settings. Good trading is born of discretion or what could be called experiential knowledge applied with specific discipline. That is NEVER what people seek. The fast track to easy riches in trading is of the same myth as the magic indie and secret setting.

So to a guy like me...when someone asks for help and won't listen it becomes a waste of time very quickly.

Happy to clarify any of that especially if I missed the point.

Dan

Dan,
I completely agree!


I mentioned the "interview" which is used as a screening tool. I can't and will never attempt to cover the variety or range of those who self select and present themselves on these threads, as paid Elite members. The range is as varied as the jelly bean bowl.

Then your comments about those who seek to become mentors, paid advertisers, poachers, "never show their results and proof" experts (I have a few names in mind with that category). They sure do turn up don't they.

Some of the things you hear are:
1) "stay off those threads and stop commenting and posting;
2) "why share and comment, just for someone to "thank" your comment or thread?"
3) "isolate yourself, only participate in their room, and stick to your plan", all irrespective of volitility. go figure

--- there are a whole host of other expressions used and said that further isolate and confuse instead of include and spur further trading acuity improvements. So on that critism, I agree too.

I too, as you, Dan, have had same protractors and inquisitors. Over time, and we have so little of that, they prove themselves not of the sort that trading and sucess suits their temperment (personality, commitment and abilities)

I reflect back to Charles Booth. I really appreciated and respected him, although his brash nature suited his approach and he has successful adherents to prove his approach.

I reflect back on Trader.X (name withheld by his request) who was forced into vendor status. A wonderful personality and very likeable soul, but when results and details were pressed, well to be fair, there were gaps.

So then what does one attribute success to? When does one quit (the focus of this thread)? When does one seek help when one has quantified their faults and areas where they need help?

Hopefully others who elicit traits they lack and seek help from them, which is what has made futures.io (formerly BMT) so popular.

Hopefully with other minnows and together they form a large mass of Sardines in size as to frighten even their predators and other large fishes. They used to call them "Birds of a Feather" in tech circles.

Hopefully with other traders of like ilk, until they outgrow them or care to help others, there by improving themselves. In fact, VanTharpe said in his trading psychology books, keeping and forcing oneself into a journal is the next logical step of progression. A variant of those journals are the trading groups, as I mentioned before. Its not surprising that those who have shared their journey and experiences of growth, have received so many contacts from known and unknown friends on these threads. Perhaps because when reading those journals, they recognized that guys has more light than me, and perhaps he can shed some light on what is stumping my progress. I am guessing most of those types were genuine. Then there were those who realized it (trading success) would take more than they were willing to commit. That was the interview process, and those journals did not (for the most part) result in trading rooms or take their efforts further. In some cases they did.

I for my part, participate and read / absorb / learn from these threads and discussions as they keep coming up and repeating overtime. Yes, repeating. The same topics and conversations. Only because we ride the tides of volitility and we're up, and we're down and those taking the journey sometimes reach out across and join hands and become a larger floating vessel that weathers the storms better than just going it alone.

ATB!

that's my motto.


Last edited by kronie; September 5th, 2013 at 04:42 PM.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Getting back to the topic of this thread:

What to do when its time to quit:

1) identify what failed....

if it all comes down to a lack of profits or a loss of trading capital. Then seek a means to replenish and start again, as long as you also repair other unsuccessful habits and approaches.

2) decide to repair, replace or refer...

I have suggested often times, that others should take their capital, while they still have it, and the door is still open (as one commentator said earlier, from the floor). Take their capital and seek a trading advisor and money manager, if they're still committed to being in the markets. One can always return to basics and simply buy and hold stocks for long term appreciation and dividend payments. One can return to more advanced topics and trade long term options (Equity options, Index options, Futures options). One can return to safer havens and purchase and hold ETF's or Mutual Funds and let professionals manage their monies. One can take on infinetly more risk and seek a Futures Trading Merchant and allow them to blow their stack (loose their investment capital).

3) realize that trading at this level is NOT FOR THEM, and take appropriate actions

4) step up to the plate and stop fooling themselves and GET SERIOUS.
-- even Big Mike's comments along those lines were he wished people would not give up but show their resolve.



One thing is certian, futures.io (formerly BMT) and these threads have really helped many and for so little investment cost too.


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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:15 AM   #139 (permalink)
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This comment is made by Mike in the How much capital is enough to get started with automated Trading? and I thought responding to this was better suited in this thread:


Big Mike View Post
My answer to the question is: Start with the lowest amount of money needed to carry you for 1-2 years, having defined ahead of time (business plan) set "installments" of money on something like a quarterly basis, that you will pay yourself as part of your tuition or learning expense (ie: re-funding your brokerage account).

Some people can figure it out faster than 1 year, some people can't figure it out after 10 years. It all depends on how good you are at measuring yourself and making sure you don't keep repeating the same mistakes.

If I understand you correctly, you think that if someone after two years full-time hasn't developed a profitable strategy, it's time to give up?

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Old September 9th, 2013, 03:25 AM   #140 (permalink)
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Jura View Post
This comment is made by Mike in the How much capital is enough to get started with automated Trading? and I thought responding to this was better suited in this thread:


If I understand you correctly, you think that if someone after two years full-time hasn't developed a profitable strategy, it's time to give up?

There is no easy answer to that. It will depend on too many variables.

But at the least, if you are at it for two years without success, you had better be taking note of what you are doing (repeating mistakes).

What I find unfortunately does not match that. Plenty of users on futures.io (formerly BMT) I recognize for four years, and they are on Sim still or they are still chasing indicators, vendors trade rooms, or automation as the solution -- but they aren't focusing on actually learning how to trade.

Just my opinion of course..


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