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10,000 hours, really?
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10,000 hours, really?

  #191 (permalink)
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  #192 (permalink)
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DionysusToast View Post
My experience is a little different.

Prop shops that I know of do not look for retail trading experience. In fact, many see it as a negative thing because of all the things they will need to unlearn. I did recently meet a bunch of traders at a prop shop for coffee - only one of them had prior trading experience, the other 3 were completely new to it when they started.

Prop shops whose traders I know personally will all take graduates based on their education, extra-curricular activities (in particular competitive sports) and the way they come across in the interviews. There is absolutely no requirement for prior trading knowledge.

Let's face it - what does the average retail trader bring to the table in the prop world? Very little in 99% of cases.

I did see props that did apply this approach, but I also spoke to a recruiters who do look for track records.
The focus was on "how did you get there?" so the empahsis is on approach and risk, as oppose to just looking at bottom line numbers. The approval/deniel is also based on method, for example one recruiter told me that they never take traders who are short vol, like short option traders, etc. No doubt that regardless of approach, they all have guidelines developed over years for positive expectany from their members.

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  #193 (permalink)
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DionysusToast View Post
Is it not possible you are overestimating?

My opinion is that the 10,000 hours comes from what people feel like they put in.

10,000 hours in 3 years is 3,333 hours per year or 9 hours per day if working every day.

Looking back, do you really think you put in 9 hours a day, every day for 3 years? Did you have a job too at that time?



Yes, I stand behind my previous estimate.


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  #194 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
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Outliers

I think I have read something similar from the book Outliers of Malcolm Gladwell. I am wondering if the 10,000 hours is just the average number in every subject for everyone, no matter if the person can adapt/learn things fast. (Well obviously I am making the over-confidence mistake myself. ) Albeit I think hard working can never go wrong, and there is always a new horizon to chase.

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  #195 (permalink)
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A good article about the 10,000 hours and deliberate practice:
Lessons on Success and Deliberate Practice from Mozart, Picasso, etc.

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  #196 (permalink)
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Bookworm View Post
A good article about the 10,000 hours and deliberate practice:
Lessons on Success and Deliberate Practice from Mozart, Picasso, etc.

Thanks! That was a great article, and I wholeheartedly agree with it's premise.

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  #197 (permalink)
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DionysusToast View Post
... ... Let's face it - what does the average retail trader bring to the table in the prop world? Very little in 99% of cases.

The other side of the prop traders' trades! A valuable resource - just not for hiring.

Richard
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  #198 (permalink)
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DionysusToast View Post
Prop shops give traders 12 weeks of training & then let them work SIM till they get good enough to be let loose on 1 or 2 lots. Some people are there on week 12 and some never get there.

3 months, not 5 years.

There wouldn't be ANY professional traders anywhere if it took 5 years of full time commitment to get profitable.

Think about it people, how would a firm be able to survive if if they had to pay people for 5 years before they got a return? How would prop traders on a stipend of $750 a month survive for 5 years on that pittance before they made enough money to buy a few new shirts, or eat.

What is it that occurs at hour 10,000 that is so special? Why not 5403 or 1726 or 8983?

It's just a myth perpetuated on teh interweb in my opinion.


WIth the prop firms too the thing is they don't pay you for too long. They ditch you after a few months if you don't catch on... They want ultra competitive people with brains who figure it out..

I still think it takes a good couple of years on the screens to really smooth out the equity curve. I wouldn't say 10,000 hours, but maybe 1000. Most prop traders earn just above minimum wage.. Only the guns with heaps of screen time and obsession earn the big coin..

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  #199 (permalink)
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ReeceD View Post
WIth the prop firms too the thing is they don't pay you for too long. They ditch you after a few months if you don't catch on... They want ultra competitive people with brains who figure it out..

I still think it takes a good couple of years on the screens to really smooth out the equity curve. I wouldn't say 10,000 hours, but maybe 1000. Most prop traders earn just above minimum wage.. Only the guns with heaps of screen time and obsession earn the big coin..


Also, and I mean at least 1 thousand hours using at least some solid theory/ strategy.. Back in the day I read all the T.A and F.A books around and it really got me nowhere (that is my experience.) It obviously still recommended that you stay abreast of this information so you know what others have on their minds. But to put it simply I think you need to be analysing exchange data (a.k.a profile, order flow, footprints) along with the news and the obvious levels. This would be the "bread and butter" of a proprietary trader.

But if you are looking to swing big with 10k hours using oscillators then you are not going to make it, no matter how well you can read that line and apply money management. You need to ensure you have a couple of thousand hours with something that actually gives you an "edge."

Also trading for capital gains and trading for income is different. It is pretty straight forward to earn 20% trading with a reasonable amount of education and experience. This is when money management and discipline is very important. But if you want to start swinging a 20 lot for 5-6 hours a day with a higher levels of commission on your then I would hope you have at least 2-3k hours of solid practice in the aforementioned.

But thats just me. The depth and diversity of trading strategies has always been something that has astounded me.

Everyone may be different. But the amount of profitable traders I know is quite small compared to the total pool, and they have all gone a course similar to this.

In summary, I think 10k hours to figure it out, 1-2k if you get mentored.

I hope this is not offensive in any way.

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  #200 (permalink)
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I think it depends on what you are looking at and what you are steered to look at early on. As a retail trader, if you come across trading somehow and then start to research online there are so many articles and forums all geared to teach TA, which for the majority doesn't work out. I guess this is because TA is an easy thing to teach and show visually, and also to learn (as in it's easy to learn about an MA crossover and think, yea I understand how to use that now, which makes you feel good about yourself and eager to go back for more).

It's far harder to portray order flow analysis, especially because learning it is time consuming and being good at it requires experience which cannot be given through reading an online article.

This to me is the difference between your average retail trader and the prop shop. The retail trader wants the easy route, whereas the prop shop trader is forced to get that experience early on. So it could well take five years (or never if they don't catch on) for the former and 3 months for the latter. So it all depends how long someone spends looking at the wrong thing.

I think it was John Grady of nobsdaytrading who said he was in a prop firm for a while not getting anywhere while looking at charts, he then saw another trader looking at just the DOM when it clicked and either the following month or the month after he was profitable.

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