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Is Trading Psychology a Hoax?


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Is Trading Psychology a Hoax?

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  #1 (permalink)
 aligator 
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Is trading psychology a hoax? Perhaps yes. It is certainly used more often to explain one's failure than helping one to become successful. One needs an Exorcist to remove the demons of fear and greed.

Here is some food for thoughts:

Most trading shrinks would say: You have to consider trading as a business and treat it as a business. I wonder if these shrinks have a shrink of their own to help them with their own business; chances are the answer is no.

Trading is not different from any other business, just another way of making a living. Once you know, have learned, or inherited, or grew up with a business you should be able to run that business. Our barber or butcher may need a shriek, but it will not be for how to run his business, perhaps for not using the the blade on a bare neck.

Millions of businesses in the USA and many millions around the globe do not pay a shrink to tell them how to run their business. So, why is it that 90 percent of all traders need a psychiatrist to analyze their trading behavior? Simple; they need someone to supposedly explain to them why they are failing running a business that they have no clue how to run it.

Ask again, why someone who has all the answers about how to run a successful trading "business" would spend time with a bunch of "failures" know it all not good for trading, for $300 an hour where he can potentially make many times more just having a trading "business."

These guys in the trading psychology "business" just copy ancient words of wisdom and give you a dangerous sense of security enough to go back and continue doing what you have done before to the point of ruins. The demons are still in there.

Analyze This!

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 josh 
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I think you mean "shrink" ... not "shriek," a loud scream of terror.

To some degree I agree with you. Charlatans abound in the trading world, and no doubt the movement towards psychology has been infiltrated with opportunistic wannabe-psychs.

On the other hand, I disagree that trading is like any other business. It is a different game altogether than being a barber or butcher. Many high-performing athletes work with sports psychologists, and trading is more akin to sports than cutting someone's hair or cutting a piece of meat. Life is full of risks, and every business incurs expenses, but trading is somewhat unique in that money is directly wagered every time the trader "works."

A wage or salary worker goes to work, and over time if he does a poor job will lose that job. But there is very little chance of walking in on Monday morning, and walking out Monday evening having actually lost money at work (unless he has a hole in his pants pocket). Even a business of course may lose money some days because their overhead is greater than their income. However, even here the business actually gets something for their expense. The trader only gets opportunity to make money with risk capital, and can never actually hold something or see something tangible for the money he risks.

The very nature of trading is directly tied to risk in a more intimate way than most any other job or business I can think of. So much with proper execution in trading is counter to normal human behavior, hence the 90%+ rate of those who lose money; thus, it is not unreasonable that someone might seek help in rewiring their dysfunctional (yet normal) thought processes in order to achieve greater success.

Consider that those who are successful are probably quite diverse in their methods and approaches to the very same market, and there is also much diversity that we see in methods used by the unsuccessful; so what separates them? Is it method, or the gray matter between their ears?

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 Big Mike 
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I've found that most people that think psychology plays no part in trading are really just using a different word in place of 'psychology'. Call it what you want, it has a major role in your trading ability.

One word for it would simply be "experience". The experience to deal with the "issues" that come up in trading. I would call it psychology, but many are opposed to this word.

I really don't care what you call it, so long as you pay attention to it since it is really what will make or break you as a trader.

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 Silvester17 
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aligator View Post
Is trading psychology a hoax? Perhaps yes. It is certainly used more often to explain one's failure than helping one to become successful. One needs an Exorcist to remove the demons of fear and greed.

Here is some food for thoughts:

Most trading shrieks would say: You have to consider trading as a business and treat it as a business. I wonder if these shrieks have a shriek of their own to help them with their own business; chances are the answer is no.

Trading is not different from any other business, just another way of making a living. Once you know, have learned, or inherited, or grew up with a business you should be able to run that business. Our barber or butcher may need a shriek, but it will not be for how to run his business, perhaps for not using the the blade on a bare neck.

Millions of businesses in the USA and many millions around the globe do not pay a shriek to tell them how to run their business. So, why is it that 90 percent of all traders need a psychiatrist to analyze their trading behavior? Simple; they need someone to supposedly explain to them why they are failing running a business that they have no clue how to run it.

Ask again, why someone who has all the answers about how to run a successful trading "business" would spend time with a bunch of "failures" know it all not good for trading, for $300 an hour where he can potentially make many times more just having a trading "business."

These guys in the trading psychology "business" just copy ancient words of wisdom and give you a dangerous sense of security enough to go back and continue doing what you have done before to the point of ruins. The demons are still in there.

Analyze This!

absolutely, very true.

I said it before and I'll say it again. for me, all that psychology talk is nothing more than excuses for failure. but there's a simple cure. if you can't handle it, then maybe trading is not for you. if you're tone deaf then you probably shouldn't become a singer.

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 treydog999 
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I believe that trading psychology has 100% helped me in my trading, mostly in the consistency department. The difference between a traditional business say meat packing ( my family has done meat packing for over 40 years) to trading is that when things go wrong in the business. They are external to the CEO/Owner, broken machines, unproductive employee, lack of sales, distribution problems etc. They are easily identifiable and simple to remedy in comparison to trading. As a trader in the business of trading, my equipment is my mind and I am also the owner. It takes an incredible amount of introspection to do the same steps required to identify and remedy problems. I have to look inside at myself and the things i am doing for problems, as well as fix it. There is no ego in replacing a broken refrigerator, there is ego in telling myself your costing yourself money because of lack of discipline. Consider the differences in generating income in a traditional business vs trading. In a traditional business we can have a salesman pitch 100 people, the risk reward on that is tiny. Because when a potential new client says no, we dont lose as much money as we would gain or substantial portion of whatever potential contract could have been drawn up. In trading if you took 100 trades say with 3:1 reward risk. if you lose you lose 33% of your potential gains, which makes you less effective over time and well can put you out of business. OK maybe i am ranting here. Just saying, traditional businesses are not comparable to trading as the ego, self image, and execution are completely different then sales, logistics and management. I truly believe in trading psych.

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 aligator 
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josh View Post
I think you mean "shrink" ... not "shriek," a loud scream of terror.

There you have it. I just trusted the spell checker, not my intuition. Its just like seeing a breakout and pushing the sell sell sell button without looking at the big picture. How can the shrink fix that? I should have had better reasons to believe that the guillotine was not really functional before I put my neck under it (the engineer joke).

Thanks, will edit the note.

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 aligator 
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josh View Post
I think you mean "shrink" ... not "shriek," a loud scream of terror.

To some degree I agree with you. Charlatans abound in the trading world, and no doubt the movement towards psychology has been infiltrated with opportunistic wannabe-psychs.

On the other hand, I disagree that trading is like any other business. It is a different game altogether than being a barber or butcher. Many high-performing athletes work with sports psychologists, and trading is more akin to sports than cutting someone's hair or cutting a piece of meat. Life is full of risks, and every business incurs expenses, but trading is somewhat unique in that money is directly wagered every time the trader "works."

A wage or salary worker goes to work, and over time if he does a poor job will lose that job. But there is very little chance of walking in on Monday morning, and walking out Monday evening having actually lost money at work (unless he has a hole in his pants pocket). Even a business of course may lose money some days because their overhead is greater than their income. However, even here the business actually gets something for their expense. The trader only gets opportunity to make money with risk capital, and can never actually hold something or see something tangible for the money he risks.

The very nature of trading is directly tied to risk in a more intimate way than most any other job or business I can think of. So much with proper execution in trading is counter to normal human behavior, hence the 90%+ rate of those who lose money; thus, it is not unreasonable that someone might seek help in rewiring their dysfunctional (yet normal) thought processes in order to achieve greater success.

Consider that those who are successful are probably quite diverse in their methods and approaches to the very same market, and there is also much diversity that we see in methods used by the unsuccessful; so what separates them? Is it method, or the gray matter between their ears?

All I can say, there is no difference, a business is a business. They all involve risk capital and their up and downs whether they offer a product (the grocer) or a service (the labor). The guy that runs a Seven Eleven, probably mortgaged his house and everything he has to get that franchise. Their exposure to loosing every thing is real and no less than a 100 percent vested trader. The grocer throws away a lot rotten fruit every day, push things out at 2 for 1 below cost, and deals with overhead, etc. all part of doing business.

Like driving in Indy 500, trading is not for everyone (although Helio Castroneves won the Indy 500 and proved he can dance too and won the Mirror Ball).

A successful business is one that is in black when it comes to paying the bills. But, if the operator does not know what is it that he is supposed to do he needs to learn it well before he opens the store or he can "shriek" until blue and no "shrink" can help.

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 aligator 
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Big Mike View Post

One word for it would simply be "experience".

I buy the "experience."

Cheers!

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 Rad4633 
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So, why is it that 90 percent of all traders need a psychiatrist to analyze their trading behavior? Simple; they need someone to supposedly explain to them why they are failing running a business that they have no clue how to run it.

Is this really TRUE? 90%


WORDS OF WISDOM- Simple; they need someone to supposedly explain to them why they are failing running a business that they have no clue how to run it.

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 josh 
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aligator View Post
Like driving in Indy 500, trading is not for everyone

You and Silvester both said this, and I wholeheartedly agree.

But who we are is the sum total of all of our life experiences, from birth until now. So we might say someone "cannot handle trading" or is "not cut out" for trading. That may be true, but isn't that intrinsically linked to their life experiences, their attitudes, their emotional makeup, their... psychological self?

Whether they can be successful or not, I'll never say, but I agree, some are just better than others. But the question is this: is that success due to internal factors, or external? The obvious answer is, to some degree, both. But seeing as how there are almost as many methods, systems, approaches to the market as there are traders, it makes sense to me that the success or lack of it is more dependent upon who the person is, how their mind works, and their ability to see markets for what they are.

I have a strong distaste for reading about how someone's trading is related to how he was treated when he was 5 years old, blah, blah, etc. But who am I to say that maybe this is truly a key that may open doors for this person in both his personal and professional lives?

Finally, I'll say this: some people jump into psychology too quickly. It takes time, experience (as Mike referred to), and an understanding of how markets operate in order to have a chance. Exploring personal psychology when one is still pretty new is probably not a step in the right direction, and I think this is largely the point you are making. They try to blame their newbie-ish behavior on psychology, when in fact it's just because they're new, don't know what they're doing, etc.

Perhaps a balanced approach and appreciation for all the various components needed is in order: we need strategy/method/experience, and we need the ability mentally to execute in a way consistent with success.

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 rk142 
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Psychology is a funny topic in general (not just in trading).

Great people are often acutely self-aware. They know what they are thinking and feeling, and they are capable of stepping back and viewing themselves not through the lens of their anxiety-ridden egos, but in an objective way. They have often struggled and sweated to develop that ability.

That being said, those people tend not to spend a lot of time fretting about, whining about, obsessing over, or explaining their successes and failures by referring to their personal psychology.

Empowered by self-understanding, they are now focused exclusively on excelling at the task at hand.

best,
RK

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 kevv 
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I found some Psychology helpfull.
It helped my to separate out emotional baggage that affects not only Trading but life in general.
It helps to understand why I do what I do.
Now Im not trying to find any "cure" or solutions to problems that took a lifetime to aquire.
Ya can't just undo fifty somethin years of history.
But I have found that I can separate and move on from hear.
So I don;t ponder on cures and fixes.
See what is hindering my intuitive development, face it strate up and move on.
Like make a line in the sand.
Ray at IDT has a good model .
Another place I found was a guy Andrew Menecker.
He don't call himself a shrink, he is a stretch.
POPdoc.com

Im not paid to advertise just sharing what works.
You do not have to spend tons of money these two guys can get ya situated and focused.
They got some good tools to have in your box.
Emotional capitol has value.

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 Luger 
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I am fond of the way Jedi (from the chatbox) looks at things. He categorizes trade mistakes into 2 separate groups. Method and execution. Method is if you trade exactly to plan and the trade still goes bad, then that is method failure. Nothing wrong with this. Statistically gonna happen.

Conversely, if you mishandle the trade by not pulling the trigger, chasing, holding a loser, whatever, then that is an execution failure (win or lose). That is attributable to psychology, whether it be emotion, discipline, or the ability to make the decision at the right time. Using the 2 group approach simplifies things. Post trade you evaluate your your trade and check it off in one box or the other. You can tally them up and see if you have a problem and where it lies. Does your method suck or does your execution suck? Or are you a trading god and those check boxes rarely get any action?

As opposed to looking at "psychology", which for some is a bad word, just look at your execution.

I am not one to talk as I suck discretionary and know it, but this is one thing that stuck out to me as a way to simplify psychology.

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 aligator 
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Luger View Post
You can tally them up and see if you have a problem and where it lies.

Something like Yoda might say: The Force you go with.

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 Big Mike 
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All anyone needs to do is spend a few minutes reading trading journals on futures.io (formerly BMT) to see how important psychology is with trading.

The psychology of trading is not about "my mommy didn't let me play outside when I was 5, and now I'm a bad trader". I think maybe some people that oppose the use of the word psychology are just hung up on the wrong mental image of what it means.

The development of the mind.

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 Big Mike 
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Some people like to say psychology has no place. You are either a skilled trader or you aren't. Maybe that is true if you are an Android or computer, but as a human, you have emotions. Your mind plays tricks on you. If you don't know that to be true, then you need to do some more research on how memories work with the human brain.

When you put all these things together, "the psychology of trading", you come up with a collective of reasons that can explain away why you held on to that losing trade, even though your plan said to get rid of it. This is both a good and a bad thing.

For most, it is a good thing when they finally realize that their poor trading performance is a direct result of their own actions. Too many traders never get this far. They blame the market, indicators, vendors, platforms, data feeds, family, phone calls, whatever. But never themselves. No accountability.

When you finally realize that it was your own actions that caused you to mis-manage a trade, that is progress. But why did you do it? You know you did it, but why?? I call this the psychology of trading. Why do we as humans want to be right? Why is it our memories fault us, convincing us of something in order for us to be right, when in reality we were wrong?

You cannot use psychology as a crutch any more than you can use an indicator as a crutch, or a scapegoat. To do so would be a mistake. But at least if you focus your energy on psychology, you've recognized that you are responsible for your own actions. I believe this is inherit with psychology -- it's called taking accountability.

Once you've identified problems with your trading, lets say over trading, holding losers to long, whatever --- now you can begin to work on these areas. Why do you do these bad things? Surely you can read english, and right in front of you is your trading plan which clearly states in bold letters "DO NOT HOLD LOSERS TOO LONG". Yet you do it anyway. You can read right? So what's the problem?

Some people will say that isn't psychology, it's skill. I think it's the same. When you are great at a skill, it means you've mastered all aspects of it, including the psychological aspect. You cannot simply remove the psychological aspect of a skill because you don't like the word. It is there whether you want to admit it exists or ignore it.

I believe that those that think psychology has no place in trading just look at it in simple black/white terms of "if you didn't follow your rules, you are a bad trader". They don't think psychology enters in to that. And again, I think it's just mincing words, because it is all the same thing. They are interchanging skill for psychology and vice versa.

So again, call it what you want, so long as you are spending time on it. At least you aren't downloading 10 new indicators every week, spending hours looking at new and improved setups on your chart, trying to find new indicators to minimize chop, trying to add new filters to your chart... right? RIGHT??

Mike

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 TrendTraderBH 
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Great thread!

Of course, greed and fear are part of the human make-up and both affect trading between the ears.

In a free promotional webinar I attended by Rande Howell (aka "Trading Psychologist") he said (paraphrasing), the brain cannot distinguish uncertainty from fear.

My interpretation on Rande's observation is since trading almost always involves uncertainty every time a trader pulls the trigger this is perceived by the brain as fear. For my own trading I think this is why many times I fail to enter valid setups (avoidance of uncertainty - avoidance of fear). I have certainty only when I don't take a trade. It also influences my trade management as the uncertainty (fear) is not resolved until the trade is over. From what Luger/Jedi above says, this all affects execution (not method).

An exercise that have helped me somewhat overcome the uncertainty/fear issue (which were suggested to me by another Trading Psychologist that I paid for) is in real time to write down what I'm thinking before and during trades and to write down reasons that I consciously think of why or why not to take a trade. There is nothing wrong with not taking a trade as long as I consciously know why and can review at the end of the day.

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 rk142 
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Big Mike said:


Quoting 
All anyone needs to do is spend a few minutes reading trading journals on futures.io (formerly BMT) to see how important psychology is with trading.

That's on the money.

When I started my journal I flamed out quickly with a bad method. While researching a method I went back to page one of the Elite Journals and read them all from start to finish. You see the same behaviors over and over again, mostly the same panicky inability to focus coupled with brain-freezing insecurity.

It was a tutorial in how not to be.

That's a very general and ever-applicable skill set, by the way: how to be.

You might call it "the philosopher's edge."

-RK

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 Silvester17 
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Big Mike View Post
Some people like to say psychology has no place. You are either a skilled trader or you aren't. Maybe that is true if you are an Android or computer, but as a human, you have emotions. Your mind plays tricks on you. If you don't know that to be true, then you need to do some more research on how memories work with the human brain.

When you put all these things together, "the psychology of trading", you come up with a collective of reasons that can explain away why you held on to that losing trade, even though your plan said to get rid of it. This is both a good and a bad thing.

For most, it is a good thing when they finally realize that their poor trading performance is a direct result of their own actions. Too many traders never get this far. They blame the market, indicators, vendors, platforms, data feeds, family, phone calls, whatever. But never themselves. No accountability.

When you finally realize that it was your own actions that caused you to mis-manage a trade, that is progress. But why did you do it? You know you did it, but why?? I call this the psychology of trading. Why do we as humans want to be right? Why is it our memories fault us, convincing us of something in order for us to be right, when in reality we were wrong?

You cannot use psychology as a crutch any more than you can use an indicator as a crutch, or a scapegoat. To do so would be a mistake. But at least if you focus your energy on psychology, you've recognized that you are responsible for your own actions. I believe this is inherit with psychology -- it's called taking accountability.

Once you've identified problems with your trading, lets say over trading, holding losers to long, whatever --- now you can begin to work on these areas. Why do you do these bad things? Surely you can read english, and right in front of you is your trading plan which clearly states in bold letters "DO NOT HOLD LOSERS TOO LONG". Yet you do it anyway. You can read right? So what's the problem?

Some people will say that isn't psychology, it's skill. I think it's the same. When you are great at a skill, it means you've mastered all aspects of it, including the psychological aspect. You cannot simply remove the psychological aspect of a skill because you don't like the word. It is there whether you want to admit it exists or ignore it.

I believe that those that think psychology has no place in trading just look at it in simple black/white terms of "if you didn't follow your rules, you are a bad trader". They don't think psychology enters in to that. And again, I think it's just mincing words, because it is all the same thing. They are interchanging skill for psychology and vice versa.

So again, call it what you want, so long as you are spending time on it. At least you aren't downloading 10 new indicators every week, spending hours looking at new and improved setups on your chart, trying to find new indicators to minimize chop, trying to add new filters to your chart... right? RIGHT??

Mike

I see what you're saying. and I would agree to a certain degree.

here's another example. you're a doctor. you misdiagnosed your patient. as a result the patient dies. are you calling this psychology of medicine? maybe I don't know. but the fact is, you made a fatal mistake. you should not be a doctor. nobody cares about the aspect of psychology. I know this is a far fetched example.

my simple point is, if you can't handle it, don't trade with real money until you can.

another great example of psychology pressure is if you borrow money for trading and can't afford to lose. and here I agree about your mind playing games with you. but then again, you shouldn't do that. so stop trading. I guess you can call this fear.

now I greed example. you want to go for big moves. lets say 10 points with a stop of 2 points. most of the time you get 5 points and then market reverses and you get stopped out for 2 points. but you keep doing it and losing. I don't call this a psychological problem, I call this simple stupidity.

all I want to say is, stop making excuses about losing trades. and if you think your mind is playing games with you when trading, then again trading is not for you.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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An interesting article i read this week about this topic :


Quoting 
What if it was all wrong? The common advice you hear about trading, that is. What if it was, plain and simple, wrong? Have you ever really considered that?

You’ve been told that you need to focus on simplicity. And that you have to find a few trusted setups to execute with discipline each time they show up. And that all you need is good psychology and you’ll be profitable. But who tells you all of this?...

Source: If I Could Teach You One Thing About Trading Success, This Is It | OpenTrader Pro Trading Blog

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 aligator 
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I think most everybody who is defending Psychology are so fixed on their views that totally miss the point. What really was said is this: " If you know how to run your business you don't need psychology." They all seem to be missing that big "If."

Just because you skinned a rabbit, you are not ready to perform heart surgery. Same for trading, just because you have SIM traded for for 2 years it does not mean you are an accomplished trader businessperson. You need at least a four years degree and 4 years in field before you can even enter the professional world in anything.

Successful traders that know the trading business don't need psychology. The get-rich-overnight enthusiasts that have blown two accounts following 30 days of SIM trading are the majority that the trading shrinks seek to heal.

Nothing though wrong with reading something like Covey's "The 7 Habits of Highly Successful People", you learn ideas (all from old wisdom) that will help one in all aspects of life, including a trading business. These are some of the stuff that the trader's shrink put on a slide show in a 2-days seminar for $999.

Here is a little joyful 2-hrs read book($2.99) that would tell all one needs to know in addition to what one learned in kindergarten, "The Richest Man in Babylon."

Cheers!

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 trendisyourfriend 
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aligator View Post
I think most everybody who is defending Psychology are so fixed on their views that totally miss the point. What really was said is this: " If you know how to run your business you don't need psychology." They all seem to be missing that big "If."
...!

I know quite a few good businessmen who have suffered from a burnout episode but were able to get back on track by exploring their psychological weaknesses and doing the necessary changes despite the fact they knew how to run their business. Psychology plays an important role in business to be sure you just need to type this in Google: "What Role Does Psychology Play in Business".

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 liquidcci 
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Psychology will not fix a bad strategy but psychological issues can destroy a good strategy.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 Big Mike 
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aligator View Post
Successful traders that know the trading business don't need psychology.

In the nicest possible way, I would like to say that is ridiculous and really ignorant.

Do you think Tiger Woods just forgot how to play golf after all his scandals? Or was it that he had so much going on in his head, that his game suffered?

You seem to be going out of your way to say it is all skill, and that skill has nothing to do with psychology (the mind). I am having a lot of trouble connecting with you on this because it is so far and distant from my own beliefs and experiences, and what I know and believe to be true.

I have talked to a ton of successful traders, I can't think of a single one who has ever told me that psychology has no place in trading.

Mike

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 aligator 
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Silvester17 View Post
you should not be a doctor. nobody cares about the aspect of psychology. I know this is a far fetched example.

No one disputes that the state of the mind is not "Black and White." But @Silvester17, your example is not far fetched at all.

Here is a real example. My brother is a well respected reconstructive ophthalmologist surgeon with patients form around the world in his clinic. He has been doing major delicate eye surgeries for over 35 years without a failure of his fault. He knows what he is doing, updated on latest technology, lectures at major universities, and attends medical conferences all over the world. You would think performing just another surgery for him is a piece of cake.

While he is doing the surgery he is totally in control and the only things on his mind are the procedure and the safety of the patient. But I must tell you when he is done he is mentally a wreck and stressed out.

Does he need a psychiatrist to help him deal with post surgery stress and high levels of adrenalin? It is part of his job, he knows it, and he does it well.

Now, if he fails in the surgery because he can not psychologically, intellectually, and physically handle the task, then he should not be a surgeon. Just like the fictional Doc Martin, the surgeon, that can not stand the sight of blood so he became a GP in Portwenn, to treat common cold and runny noses. Even the shrink could not help him so that he becomes the chief surgeon at the Royal College. This is fictional, but is so true in real life.

Got to know your business, you are either made for it or not.

Cheers!

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 eudamonia 
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I kinda get where you are coming from alligator but you take it a bit too far.

Yes, there is no question that you need to know what you are doing in this business to be successful. However, I disagree that successful businessmen (let alone traders) don't need to get their head screwed on straight.

When you are under pressure you are going to be challenged whether in business or trading. Obviously if you know nothing about how to be a successful businessman or trader you can't succeed. But often the additional edge that differentiates the great businessmen and traders is having their head together.

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 Big Mike 
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I think the issue @aligator seems to have is with paying for "professional help" from what he calls a shrink. This has nothing to do with my argument or anything I've said, as I am not for or against that at all.

My argument has simply been that psychology is important. I'm not telling you to go seek out help or pay for it.

That said, in general, I would say that spending time, energy and money on a trading coach that specifically focuses on psychology, and not on methodology, indicators or systems, is a much smarter decision than spending money, time and energy on chasing vendors selling holy grails.

Mike

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 aligator 
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Big Mike View Post
In the nicest possible way, I would like to say that is ridiculous and really ignorant.

Do you think Tiger Woods just forgot how to play golf after all his scandals? Or was it that he had so much going on in his head, that his game suffered?

You seem to be going out of your way to say it is all skill, and that skill has nothing to do with psychology (the mind). I am having a lot of trouble connecting with you on this because it is so far and distant from my own beliefs and experiences, and what I know and believe to be true.

I have talked to a ton of successful traders, I can't think of a single one who has ever told me that psychology has no place in trading.

Mike

Quite to the contrary, it is not all skills. You can not run any business without the mental and physical abilities demanded by that particular business. We are not talking here about Tiger or Rory that have been conditioned to play golf from the time they were in diapers, 2 of a kind in 7 billions. We are talking about average business people with mental and physical ability demanded by the skill set they they found suitable for making a living.

Psychology has everything to do with any business, to put the records straight. Part of knowing your business, other than skills, is to know that you are capable of running that business.

Also, in response to our other friend; burning out and stressed out are not necessarily psychological problems for overachievers, more often than not are related to an imbalance between work and other things important in a healthy life. A vacation would likely do more good than a shrink.

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 patbateman 
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Alligator-automated trading should be done after becoming a profitable discretionary trader. If automation is superior, then why should someone who can't discretionary trade expect to work as a quant?

A small automated system will take thousands, possibly only hundreds, of man hours to get working. Like small iPhone apps (forget the big ones like Garmin) it takes teams to accomplish this, with most people working on orders from a boss to complete the tedious stuff. This is a waste of time for an individual novice.

If someone is properly given the correct instructions on what to do (this does not mean bucket shops), they can become a profitable discretionary trader in just months. Yes, automated trading gives cool backtest results, but these are fool's gold. Creating human backtest results by practicing the market live (retail time or though a sim like Ninjatrader) and perfecting a skill that gives you your minimum profitability and consistency is how one becomes rich as a trader.

"A Jedi's strength flows from the force."
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 aligator 
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Big Mike View Post
I think the issue @aligator seems to have is with paying for "professional help" from what he calls a shrink.

To be clear, I have no "issues" with the so the called "professionals" or self-promoted internet trader's shrinks, many of whom are without even a two years junior college education in psychology. If anyone wants to pay them, at least ask for proper professional credentials.

If one has acquired the skills, education, mental, physical, and resource capabilities demanded for a specific job he will most likely be successful and there is no need for a "professional" when he makes a mistake. He knows how to fix things.

That does not mean one should not sharpen his saw (the 7th Habit) to keep up with self, time, and competition.

Of course everyone has an opinion, whether it is ignorant or uninformed. Only long experience will tell one at a time when its no longer relevant.

So, Cheers to all opinions.

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 rk142 
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aligator View Post

Here is a real example. My brother is a well respected reconstructive ophthalmologist surgeon with patients form around the world in his clinic. He has been doing major delicate eye surgeries for over 35 years without a failure of his fault. He knows what he is doing, updated on latest technology, lectures at major universities, and attends medical conferences all over the world. You would think performing just another surgery for him is a piece of cake.

While he is doing the surgery he is totally in control and the only things on his mind are the procedure and the safety of the patient. But I must tell you when he is done he is mentally a wreck and stressed out.

Does he need a psychiatrist to help him deal with post surgery stress and high levels of adrenalin? It is part of his job, he knows it, and he does it well.

I don't know if he needs "professional help" to deal with post surgery stress, but I would say with confidence that being an excellent surgeon and also not stressed out by that excellence is superior to being an excellent surgeon and stressed out by that excellence.

I have no idea if it's possible to be an excellent surgeon and not suffer from post-surgery stress, but if I was a surgeon I'd be interested in exploring that, even if I was doing that exploration alone and on my own.

@aligator, do you feel the same way at the end of the trading day that your brother feels after a surgery?

best,
RK

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 Traderwolf 
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Anyone reading this board ever had any of the following issues?:

1. Not taking a trade in your plan because you did not think it would work?
2. Not taking a trade in your plan after a couple of losses in a row?
3. Taking a trade immediately after a loss that is not in your plan? And then after another loss, another trade not in your plan?
4. Chasing a price move because you are afraid it is going to run without you only to see it reverse after you jump in?
5. Averaging into a losing position because you just believe you are right and price will come back to where you bought?
6. Moving your stop further away from your original stop to "give it more room"?
7. Moving your stop to break even too early only to get stopped out and it then run without you?
8. Continuous counter trend trades because you feel price has moved too far and you expect a reversal?
9. Refusal to close out a losing trade and holding it until later in the day or the next day taking a bigger loss than your original stop?
10. Trying to get your losses back as soon as you can by taking trades outside of your plan.

If you haven't had any of these issues, you are either a master trader or have never traded before. Chances are if you have had several of these happen to you, you either have no trading plan and should not be trading or your mindset around trading needs some work.

Call it psychology, call it mindset, call it mental discipline , or whatever suits your fancy. My guess is that is what needs work if you are doing any of the items very frequently above and they are not specified in your trading plan.


Wolf

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  #34 (permalink)
 monpere 
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Trading psychology is a hoax, human psychology is not. We bring into trading our human psychology, and that will certainly affect the way we trade. We need to recognize our own individual psychological traits, in order to choose the best trading approach that will work with those psychological traits.

I don't believe we should try to change our behavior, and/or force ourselves to behave in a way that is contrary to our nature, that is a recipe for failure. For instance, I am a scalper by nature, and a counter trend trader by nature. I tried trend trading higher time frames, I failed miserably, because I just couldn't be in trades for so long, and couldn't watch the market for so long without fiddling with active trades, or close trades due to impatience and frustration. I realized, if I was going to make it as a trader, it would have to be as a scalper, or I might as well pack it in. Either spend years of therapy changing my psychology, or spend that time developing an approach that worked with my psychology.

Even after putting the time and effort to develop a scalping approach that worked for me, I still had related psychological issues. One of my biggest, and still problematic area is revenge trading. For some reason, sometimes I get really pissed at 2 or more losing trades in a row, even though I know the win percentage of my method, and I know what expected string of losing trades is within those parameters. In order to curtail this, I needed to customize my charts and entry methods to circumvent that behavior.

I actually had to remove the discretionary entry buttons in chart trader, because even though I had my own customized entry/exit/management buttons that only allowed me to manage trades according to my trading method, when I got frustrated, I could always go to chart trader and start clicking buttons as a response. The pic below shows what my charts look like. If you notice, there are no default discretionary 'Buy', 'Sell' buttons. If I'm gonna enter a trade, it is going to be exactly according to what my strategy says I should enter. If I'm gonna manage a trade, it will be exactly how my strategy says I should manage a trade. A good portion of the technical aspects of my trading are customizations to specifically circumvent my psychological shortcomings. Crazy? maybe, but it works for me. I would have been out of this business a long time ago, if I had to force myself to trade like TraderX,Y, and Z.


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 HighRise1202 
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monpere View Post
In order to curtail this, I needed to customize my charts and entry methods to circumvent that behavior.

Monpere, your approach is wild, fantastic, and inspiring! Thanks for sharing your mind-expanding custom solution.

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 Tarkus11 
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IMO a trader needs a to define a real edge first, which is numerically quantifiable. If it is not, or cannot be, 100% automated, then psychology enters the picture.

Much of the psych I have seen involved overcoming some fear/barrier to trading - but if you do not have a quantifiable edge, then that fear is actually useful to (hopefully) keep you from going broke!

I liked reading Dr. Brett before he went private with a company, because he did both successfully.

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 patbateman 
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Tarkus11 View Post
IMO a trader needs a to define a real edge first, which is numerically quantifiable. If it is not, or cannot be, 100% automated, then psychology enters the picture.

Much of the psych I have seen involved overcoming some fear/barrier to trading - but if you do not have a quantifiable edge, then that fear is actually useful to (hopefully) keep you from going broke!

I liked reading Dr. Brett before he went private with a company, because he did both successfully.

Psychology is always in the picture. It is impossible to have a hands off automated system. Further the third step in trading is execution, and this requires total human control. If a human cannot properly execute an automated system (this is as important as development), then it is no good. Again, psychology.

Robots cannot read news. They also cannot adapt and understand sentiment. Their only use is for dominating human made algorithms/code through cpu usage and low latency. This does not permit fully automated systems to be successful. I question anyone who says this, because they have not traded automated themselves.

New traders should focus on descretionary trading, and be able to quantify their success in a simulator over a period. As they reach profitability, they can then bring in execution into the picture, and then move on to trading their live account.

"A Jedi's strength flows from the force."
-Yoda
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 Big Mike 
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monpere View Post
Trading psychology is a hoax


monpere View Post
I failed miserably, because I just couldn't be in trades for so long, and couldn't watch the market for so long without fiddling with active trades, or close trades due to impatience and frustration.


monpere View Post
Trading psychology is a hoax


monpere View Post
I still had related psychological issues. One of my biggest, and still problematic area is revenge trading. For some reason, sometimes I get really pissed at 2 or more losing trades in a row


monpere View Post
Trading psychology is a hoax


monpere View Post
I actually had to remove the discretionary entry buttons in chart trader


monpere View Post
Trading psychology is a hoax


monpere View Post
A good portion of the technical aspects of my trading are customizations to specifically circumvent my psychological shortcomings


monpere View Post
Trading psychology is a hoax

Does not compute.

Mike

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 monpere 
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Big Mike View Post
Does not compute.

Mike

Read the post again @Big Mike. The quote is "Trading psychology is a hoax, human psychology is not. ". Obviously, (or maybe not so obviously) I am being facetious, and I'm really saying that psychology is important in trading...especially since the rest of the post goes on to detail all my trading psychology issues, and how I deal with them !!!

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 Big Mike 
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monpere View Post
Read the post again @Big Mike. The quote is "Trading psychology is a hoax, human psychology is not. ". Obviously, (or maybe not so obviously) I am being facetious, and I'm really saying that psychology is important in trading...especially since the rest of the post goes on to detail all my trading psychology issues, and how I deal with them !!!

OK thanks, I didn't get that message. I was shaking my head as I read your post... but that is not unusual LOL (just kidding)

I've talked to plenty of traders who would have written something very similar to what you did, but not be joking when they say psychology isn't important. It's like they are completely disconnected from what is happening.

Enjoy your weekend.



Mike

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  #41 (permalink)
 pawnbroker 
Cheltenham
 
Experience: Advanced
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There is a branch of psychology used in investigating air craft crashes called "Human Factors", which relates to how human behaviour affects safety.

As a simple observation, it is found that pilots are bad at looking at panels of instruments for hours at a time looking for matters that need attention. They are much better at responding to a situation having been alerted.

You may recognise the same pattern in your trading. How do you react to looking at a chart in a dull market for say one hour? Does your attention and concentration suffer or does it remain fully focused? Do you miss opportunities when the market turns active after being dull for a long time (insert your own definition of what counts as a long time).

This is psychology. Is it useless?

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  #42 (permalink)
 Itchymoku 
Philadelphia
 
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pawnbroker View Post
There is a branch of psychology used in investigating air craft crashes called "Human Factors", which relates to how human behaviour affects safety.

As a simple observation, it is found that pilots are bad at looking at panels of instruments for hours at a time looking for matters that need attention. They are much better at responding to a situation having been alerted.

You may recognise the same pattern in your trading. How do you react to looking at a chart in a dull market for say one hour? Does your attention and concentration suffer or does it remain fully focused? Do you miss opportunities when the market turns active after being dull for a long time (insert your own definition of what counts as a long time).

This is psychology. Is it useless?

You bring up a great point here, I would have to agree. It would also be nice if the psychologist had a firm understanding of trading different types of systems and could actually sit down with the trader to assess where their true weaknesses are for that system. It would be ideal if the psychologist could steer the trader in the right direction without disrupting the trader's underlying edge. I'm not sure if any psychologist would have these abilities with out already being a successful trader. If a psychologist already made a killing in the market, why would they want to be a psychologist? And then, how much could they help a trader with out changing the trader to trade like they do?

R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
Please visit this thread for more information.
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  #43 (permalink)
 pawnbroker 
Cheltenham
 
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Itchymoku View Post
I'm not sure if any psychologist would have these abilities with out already being a successful trader.

I think that a psychologist who specialises in trading psychology would need to know about trading in order to do the job and that experience in trading would help, but an observant person can achieve a lot by careful study.

Lets consider the generality of saying that you need to be good at X in order to study X. If that were true we would conclude that psychologists who create profiles of serial killers would need to be successful serial killers in order to do the job.

I don't think that many people would agree with that assertion, because the psychologist only needs to be able to spot patterns that can be used in matters such as screening potential suspects, to decide if separate crimes have been committed by the same person(s) and so on. It is all about being good at finding patterns, which is a bit like trading.

A psychologist would say that his field of study exists because there are also patterns in human behaviour. So it is just as plausible to me to think that a psychologist can analyse the behaviour of traders as it is to think that that traders can analyse the markets. But they are separate specialities.

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  #44 (permalink)
 Itchymoku 
Philadelphia
 
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It would be nice to know, if the psychologist didn't have a trading history, that the shrink keeps record of the change in growth after the trader's sessions. I know from this forum that most traders prefer their account size to stay anonymous, However I'd think a larger firm might not care so much about releasing the account details if the trader is trading the firm's money. I'm sure it would help the shrink's business if they could prove they have a decent track record of positive change in growth on behalf of the trader's account.

R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
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  #45 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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Itchymoku View Post
It would be nice to know, if the psychologist didn't have a trading history, that the shrink keeps record of the change in growth after the trader's sessions. I know from this forum that most traders prefer their account size to stay anonymous, However I'd think a larger firm might not care so much about releasing the account details if the trader is trading the firm's money. I'm sure it would help the shrink's business if they could prove they have a decent track record of positive change in growth on behalf of the trader's account.

Agreed, this would be neat info to have.

Many hedge funds and larger CTA have a psychologist/trading coach on staff, or on retainer. I would assume this means proper psychology CAN work. I don't see it as a cure all, though (if you don't have an edge, you'll still lose, but you'll be a more psychologically in-tune loser!)

I am also sure there are plenty of ex-traders who thought improving their trading psychology would help them, and instead are now broke.

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  #46 (permalink)
 Itchymoku 
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kevinkdog View Post
Agreed, this would be neat info to have.

Many hedge funds and larger CTA have a psychologist/trading coach on staff, or on retainer. I would assume this means proper psychology CAN work. I don't see it as a cure all, though (if you don't have an edge, you'll still lose, but you'll be a more psychologically in-tune loser!)

I am also sure there are plenty of ex-traders who thought improving their trading psychology would help them, and instead are now broke.

Hey Kevin, I really enjoyed your webinar about automated trading. As a side note, you have restored my faith in retail automation. It would be interesting to know if the psychologists had the expertise to help with the psychological issues associated with automated trading, however I assume the problems wouldn't be much different than discretionary trading from what you've discussed.

Also, I'm sure there is a bias with a keeping a trader's track record because most of the traders that go to psychologists are probably doing poorly in the first place. Maybe the psychologist could exclude the outliers, or at least show that they significantly delayed a trader from going bust while they would have went down a lot faster. lol

R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
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  #47 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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Itchymoku View Post
Hey Kevin, I really enjoyed your webinar about automated trading. As a side note, you have restored my faith in retail automation. It would be interesting to know if the psychologists had the expertise to help with the psychological issues associated with automated trading, however I assume the problems wouldn't be much different than discretionary trading from what you've discussed.

Also, I'm sure there is a bias with a keeping a trader's track record because most of the traders that go to psychologists are probably doing poorly in the first place. Maybe the psychologist could exclude the outliers, or at least show that they significantly delayed a trader from going bust while they would have went down a lot faster. lol

Thanks for the kind words about the webinar. Maybe Big Mike will have me back some time (hint, hint).

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone say "Emotions/psychology will not affect me - I'm trading automated!" If only it were that simple...

I've read the works of a lot of trading psychologists and psuedo psychologists. Only one or two said things that resonated with me.

Like you, I'd love to see a psychologist's "track record." But I suspect it would be as reliable as most backtest performance reports you see!

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  #48 (permalink)
 sienna 
Melbourne, Australia
 
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I have not tried the services of the below active Trader and Psychologist, but he seems to be successful at both. (Disclaim, Disclaim) I have ZERO financial interest in the below and am considering taking up his services in a few months.


From website: Daytrading Psychology - Trading Coach, Trading Psychology Coach | Advanced Coaching Psychology for Traders

Dr. Kenneth Reid here. ……. I have been actively involved in the equity and futures markets since 1996 as a trader, trading coach, financial newsletter editor and pundit. You might have read articles I’ve written for Forbes, SmartMoney and SFO Magazine, or perhaps you saw me on CNBC.
I hold a Ph.D. in clinical psychology, so I am aware that academic studies show that most traders lose money, even in a roaring bull market. This statistic is both intriguing and disturbing. It is intriguing that trading is much harder than it appears. In hindsight, after all, it looks fairly easy. The high failure rate is disturbing, however, because it means that most traders get hurt, both financially and psychologically.

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  #49 (permalink)
 plethora 
Los Angeles, CA
 
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"Psychology" is the pop word when it should be "Practice". With practice you'll quickly know if you have an edge or not. But no one will tell you that because there isn't any income stream associated with it for a third party. It's free! Any trader worth his or her salt became accomplished by practicing. What percent of the fallout traders really practiced for thousands of hours? Any accomplished person becomes great by practicing. Every athlete developed strength, coordination and power by cross training. Be creative and think up different exercises to practice your setup ad infinitum. If you use an oscillator then eliminate your price chart and read the action from the lower panel. If your chart is naked, then practice on a very, very fast timeframe. Mix it up, shake it up! Nothing in the world can provide the same empowering confidence that relentless practice provides. There is no substitute for practice, and then you won't think something is lacking or missing from your "psychology".

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  #50 (permalink)
 pawnbroker 
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plethora View Post
"Psychology" is the pop word when it should be "Practice"

There is some dislike of psychologists, especially in men. If I take my car to a mechanic, I do so because there is something wrong with the car. So, there is the unpleasant thought that going to see a psychiatrist implies that there is something wrong with me, that this will be exposed and used to embarrass me. That's possibly why the less threatening term "human factors" is used in some fields. Perhaps we would view things in a different light if we consider psychologists as teachers, who can give us useful insights, rather than mechanics whose job is to find and fix faults.

The truth is that there are intrinsic things wrong with the way the human mind handles many activities, including trading. The mind is evolved to maximise your chance of survival under threat. That means dealing with situations where something or someone is a threat directed at you.

In contrast, the market does nothing to affect you individually, unless you trade in large size. But our brains are built to handle adversarial situations so we do things like making "revenge trades", which is treating the market like a contest between people. That is equivalent to curve fitting data so that it fits our trading model, but we are fitting the market to how our behaviour and natural responses are designed to interact with people and predators.

Evolution has effectively given you a dumb brain and a smart brain. The smart brain runs the show unless a threat is present and then the dumb brain takes over, because the dumb brain is faster at making simple decisions. This avoids people taking a long time considering choices only to find that its too late and they are in the jaws of a predator. This can create a problem in trading as our natural responses can be inappropriate and the way you view and assess information changes when the dumb brain takes over.

When you practice in a non stressful situation you evaluate your success based on how your smart brain handles the situation. Under stress, in real trading, you may find that you fail to notice things that are obvious when you look at the same information after the stress has passed.


To show how general these matters are, here is a quote from a study concerning selective attention under stress in people who look at CCTV screens to monitor traffic. You are likely to notice similarities to trading situations.


Quoting 
For selective attention tasks, load stress is more important than speed stress in degrading performance.(56) When people must attend to multiple channels of information, they usually concentrate on channels in which signals occur frequently rather than those where the signals occur infrequently.

Further, due to human memory limitations, channel scanning strategies may be less than optimum. People often forget to examine a specific source when many sources are present, and people tend to check other sources more often than would be necessary if they remembered the status of the source when it was last experienced.(105) Under high stress conditions, fewer sources are attended to and the sources attended to are likely to be those perceived as the most important and salient. People tend to overlook or ignore information that is contradictory to their analysis of the situation.(90) This characteristic frequently has been called "tunnel vision" although it is in no way related to the operator's visual fields.

source

The traffic controller who ignores contradictory information is affected by stress in the same way that you are when you fail to exit a loosing trade, because your selective attention ignores things that indicate it's time to get out of the trade.

Practice does help, but many traders find that their behaviour is different under stress. That's normal and it is more likely to affect your decisions if you use many indicators. Boredom also affects our attention, so waiting for good opportunities can affect your decision making too, even though we are not under stress.

You may ask why people add many indicators in the first place. One reason is to gain a sense of certainty, but having many indicators can cause problems in decision making and degrade the traders performance.

So you need to consider human behaviour and psychology, the human factors, when you design and practice a discretionary trading system.

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  #51 (permalink)
TraderRach
Auckland, New Zealand
 
 
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Psychology is an overused term. Really what it comes down to is that to be successful as a trader you need to have self-mastery (self-control) to trade a system with an edge and to achieve that edge. With that being said, there's usually personal development required to control natural impulses broadly related to fear and greed that can threaten impartial decision-making when our money is on the line.

When you find yourself a successful trader and you look back at the growth you've had you can see that you're a much different person than you were when you were starting out. Much more self-controlled. It's great to take time to reflect and appreciate that growth.

Cheers Rachel

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  #52 (permalink)
 BTTFT Michael 
East Bend
 
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I've found that there's a succession of steps that takes place with our clients that we've seen emerge as a fairly common experience among all of them.

People generally go through 3 emotional phases:

a. unconscious competence (they don't know what they don't know)
b. conscious incompetence (they know that they don't know)
c. conscious competence (they have to think about what they're doing)
d. unconscious competence (they don't think about what they're doing).

There's an interesting phase that occurs between b and c. People go from a mentality psychologically of trying to collect all of the available information about trading into their library, and then realize that it's more about aligning something simpler from what they already learned (and usually used successfully in the beginning of their trading) with their personality type.

There's also a psychological shift that occurs with the math of trading, ie the probabilities and statistics of it all. They go from this "I used to be paid for working every 8 hours" to, "I sometimes lose money when I work 8 hours, and that's okay" mentality. Abandoning themselves to their model's money management is usually the biggest "psychological" hurdle.

One of the ways we encourage people to get through that phase earlier is to:

a. don't begin trading the model until you are 75% of the way into a known draw down cycle

b. don't trade live until you have a live/sim trading plan. When will you drop from live, to sim? How will you know when your model's edge has disappeared?

Like I said - a fairly commonplace experience...generally occurs in that 3-5 year "learning to trade" window.

Michael

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  #53 (permalink)
 Itchymoku 
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BTTFT Michael View Post
People go from a mentality psychologically of trying to collect all of the available information about trading into their library, and then realize that it's more about aligning something simpler from what they already learned (and usually used successfully in the beginning of their trading) with their personality type.

Funny how true this resonates with my trading story

R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
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  #54 (permalink)
fajim2004
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There have been many threads on the subject
of using a psychologist to help a trader overcome
their trading problems.

The real question is really how effective a psychologist
would be in helping traders with their problems.

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  #55 (permalink)
 pawnbroker 
Cheltenham
 
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fajim2004 View Post
There have been many threads on the subject
of using a psychologist to help a trader overcome
their trading problems.

The real question is really how effective a psychologist
would be in helping traders with their problems.


No matter how good a person is at some task, something will be their limiting factor. Most traders will think that it is their method, but it may be their psychology. If the trader keeps a log of their deadly sins, like did I miss trades, did I enter too early or exit too soon and so on, they can see if they are trading their method properly. If there are problems in these areas the trader needs to work on the human factors.

It is also worth knowing the ways in which humans tend to do well or badly. We have inbuilt limits as a species as well as limits as individuals. As an example, imagine that your charts are loaded with lots of indicators and ask if you sometimes fail to notice things in live trading that are obvious in review. Now watch this video and count the number of times the ball is passed between the players wearing white tops.


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  #56 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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pawnbroker View Post
No matter how good a person is at some task, something will be their limiting factor. Most traders will think that it is their method, but it may be their psychology. If the trader keeps a log of their deadly sins, like did I miss trades, did I enter too early or exit too soon and so on, they can see if they are trading their method properly. If there are problems in these areas the trader needs to work on the human factors.

One of the issues is that many do not have a good metric to determine what is "too early" or "too soon," for example. Many traders are flying by the seat of their pants, and have no real approach to understanding how markets work, or how to take advantage of that. So, they go into the day looking to figure it out as they go along; they are constantly flipping in their minds: long, short, long, it's going up, it's about to go down, nevermind, it's going up, .... then, as the market moves without them, an immediate hindsight bias kicks in -- "I should have taken that entry." In other words, every 30 seconds they see a potential entry into the market, but it's not a solid entry based on any real reason. So, they get the ability to be "right" in their minds no matter what happens. They feel that they saw it coming, even though they also saw every other possibility. This then turns into "I had a good read on the market, my head just wasn't in the right place." So, without ever considering (or maybe considering and then rejecting) the idea that they really don't know what they are doing in a systematic-enough way to profit from it, they immediately go to blaming their psychology. Which is sometimes the problem, for sure, but I just do not buy that 80-90% of traders really know what they are doing and can compete in the professional market, yet they are being held back by their minds. More than likely, they have both a lack of understanding about markets, AND mental/behavioral problems.

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  #57 (permalink)
 wldman 
Market Wizard
Chicago Illinois USA
 
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If I where to execute consistent actions similar to "most" traders, wouldn't I be almost certain to fail? What are the consistent actions of the very best traders? Where can you find that? DB

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  #58 (permalink)
 josh 
Georgia, US
 
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wldman View Post
If I where to execute consistent actions similar to "most" traders, wouldn't I be almost certain to fail? What are the consistent actions of the very best traders? Where can you find that? DB

Yes, but what is the reason for that action? If I tried to play golf, my actions would only be described as "crappy" because I have no idea how to even grip the club. And, my mental state is probably crap too, so I would get frustrated, and hit the ball even worse. But what is the source of the frustration, anger, impatience? For me in this scenario, it is rooted in the fact that I really don't know what the hell I'm doing. I have no approach to the game. Golf, to me at this stage, is "hit the ball." I'm not thinking strategy at all. But, after I have developed a fundamental basis to approach the game, and when I acquire some skill, then my negative thoughts or undisciplined approach to playing the game become the issue of focus. But until that time, it just doesn't matter that much, because I don't know how the game is played.

People with trading issues can probably fit into these 3 categories: little skill, great psychology; learned skill, but poor execution due to poor personal psychology; little skill and poor psychology. I hypothesize (with no intentions of experimenting) that most traders fall into the last category, not the second.

We each are unique, and must figure out (or let others help us figure out) what our primary focus needs to be.

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  #59 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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josh View Post
Yes, but what is the reason for that action? If I tried to play golf, my actions would only be described as "crappy" because I have no idea how to even grip the club. And, my mental state is probably crap too, so I would get frustrated, and hit the ball even worse. But what is the source of the frustration, anger, impatience? For me in this scenario, it is rooted in the fact that I really don't know what the hell I'm doing. I have no approach to the game. Golf, to me at this stage, is "hit the ball." I'm not thinking strategy at all. But, after I have developed a fundamental basis to approach the game, and when I acquire some skill, then my negative thoughts or undisciplined approach to playing the game become the issue of focus. But until that time, it just doesn't matter that much, because I don't know how the game is played.

People with trading issues can probably fit into these 3 categories: little skill, great psychology; learned skill, but poor execution due to poor personal psychology; little skill and poor psychology. I hypothesize (with no intentions of experimenting) that most traders fall into the last category, not the second.

We each are unique, and must figure out (or let others help us figure out) what our primary focus needs to be.

I agree. Most people trading have little skill, and poor psychology.

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  #60 (permalink)
 wldman 
Market Wizard
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don't have any skill and I have a bad mindset how would I fix that?

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  #61 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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wldman View Post
don't have any skill and I have a bad mindset how would I fix that?

To get skill, the 10,000 hour rule is probably a good start. It says to become proficient in anything, you need to put in around 10,000 hours of study and practice.

Once you did that, you'd likely have some skill, and that would dramatically improve your mindset. But changing your mind probably takes 10K hours of real money trading time.

It is a big time investment, for an uncertain outcome...

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  #62 (permalink)
 pawnbroker 
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wldman View Post
don't have any skill and I have a bad mindset how would I fix that?

A good start is to learn the traders equation. This is the basis of making a profit in trading.

Al Brooks mentions the traders equation in his books, which says that the potential reward of a trade must be greater than the potential loss.

(probability of success * reward) > (probability of failure * risk)



You should also read about money management for matters such as how much to risk on one trade and how much you need in capital. For example, if you risk no more than 2% of capital on a trade on the ES you need $2,500 per point of stop loss for your method.


Next you need to have a way to assess good opportunities based on how the market works, which is based on supply and demand. I am a short term technical trader, so I ignore fundamentals and I use a mix of Volume Spread Analysis (VSA) and price action trading. VSA is good for using volume to see where markets are likely to turn and when to enter a trade. Reading price action is also useful and that can be used profitably on its own.

However, you need to consider what suits you, which takes us back to psychology. This first thing to do is to work out if you like fast action or if you like lots of time to think about things. A person who like to ponder would probably prefer swing trading and a fast thinking person might prefer day trading (assuming they have the time to devote). It is ideal to have a trading method that fits your personality, the amount of your risk capital and the time you have available to trade.

These are just some points to consider. There are others that I have not mentioned, but this is a thread about psychology and that's where it should focus.

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  #63 (permalink)
zonkilam
Ottawa ON
 
 
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aligator View Post


Millions of businesses in the USA and many millions around the globe do not pay a shrink to tell them how to run their business. So, why is it that 90 percent of all traders need a psychiatrist to analyze their trading behavior? Simple; they need someone to supposedly explain to them why they are failing running a business that they have no clue how to run it.

Ask again, why someone who has all the answers about how to run a successful trading "business" would spend time with a bunch of "failures" know it all not good for trading, for $300 an hour where he can potentially make many times more just having a trading "business."


Trading shrinks are useless cause failure is part of everyone’s life. By nature it’s much easier to loose than win. If you can overcome your old way of thinking, master emotional stress, and execute your plan with discipline, you will master the failure, gain confidence, and save $$$ on shrinks.

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  #64 (permalink)
 pawnbroker 
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zonkilam View Post
Trading shrinks are useless cause failure is part of everyone’s life. By nature it’s much easier to loose than win. If you can overcome your old way of thinking, master emotional stress, and execute your plan with discipline, you will master the failure, gain confidence, and save $$$ on shrinks.


Personally, I have not sought such services as I think that I can learn enough from books and webinars, but I would certainly not say that trading psychologists are useless.

They are an option that will suit some people, based on the traders needs and preferences. People can be very good at denial of problems and sometimes another person can see what you can't see or refuse to see. A specialist in these matters can help you to learn faster than you can on your own, but, of course, its your choice.

There are predictable patterns in how we make mistakes and it is worth knowing these things as a trader, however you chose to learn about them.


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 Big Mike 
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pawnbroker View Post
A good start is to learn the traders equation. This is the basis of making a profit in trading.

Al Brooks mentions the traders equation in his books, which says that the potential reward of a trade must be greater than the potential loss.

(probability of success * reward) > (probability of failure * risk)



He also went into detail in his last futures.io (formerly BMT) webinar on probabilities:
Webinar: Al Brooks on Probabilities, Timing, Scaling

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 aligator 
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zonkilam View Post
Trading shrinks are useless cause failure is part of everyone’s life. By nature it’s much easier to loose than win. If you can overcome your old way of thinking, master emotional stress, and execute your plan with discipline, you will master the failure, gain confidence, and save $$$ on shrinks.

Thanks. It all boils down the the big".....IF....." , explained a few times before in this thread. So, if a [Trader] does not address this "big if" first, he should get out of trading and stop wasting more money consulting a shrink.

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 mokodo 
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Is trading psychology a hoax?

This field exists because there is a need from traders who have goals. The psychology 'option' I suppose is just one of the things we can try to get us closer to our personal goals.

But....

In my view it is impossible to disprove (or prove) as I can not think of a way it can be empirically tested. There will be as many variables to control for as there will be individuals in the sample - because it's psychology, by definition it's subjective. No two people in a group can be seen as the same. No?

The question set in a generalised way is somewhat difficult to answer. It will be a hoax (to you) if you have tried it and not felt that it has benefited your trading in some way (and it may benefit your trading indirectly in some way, but you'll never know). You'll drop it and become a sceptic.

And vice versa.

Personally I dig it and have become somewhat addicted to the subject. My wife tells me I am a nicer guy too.

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 tigertrader 
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The key to profitable trading is to create an "edge." When I was trading on the floor, I was able to buy-the-bid and sell-the-offer; in essence, buying below fair value and selling above fair value. This was a concrete edge, not unlike the house edge a casino enjoys over non-professional gamblers. Professional gamblers, especially those who play Blackjack, and are adept at card counting, may enjoy about a 1% edge. Creating an edge in screen trading is far more difficult, in my opinion, due to variance, ever-changing cycles, and fear induced losses. It's extremely difficult to quantify what kind of a realistic edge is attainable in trading, but it's probably something akin to the card counter's. This leaves little room for error, and demands of the trader something approaching perfection. Sometimes "deliberate practice," no matter how many hours are invested, is not enough. Mentor-ship, counseling, and/guidance may be necessary, to successfully attain mastery, and if it helps, would be money well spent.

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 trendisyourfriend 
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tigertrader View Post
The key to profitable trading is to create an "edge." When I was trading on the floor, I was able to buy-the-bid and sell-the-offer; in essence, buying below fair value and selling above fair value. This was a concrete edge, not unlike the house edge a casino enjoys over non-professional gamblers. Professional gamblers, especially those who play Blackjack, and are adept at card counting, may enjoy about a 1% edge. Creating an edge in screen trading is far more difficult, in my opinion, due to variance, ever-changing cycles, and fear induced losses. It's extremely difficult to quantify what kind of a realistic edge is attainable in trading, but it's probably something akin to the card counter's. This leaves little room for error, and demands of the trader something approaching perfection. Sometimes "deliberate practice," no matter how many hours are invested, is not enough. Mentor-ship, counseling, and/guidance may be necessary, to successfully attain mastery, and if it helps, would be money well spent.

Does creating an edge demand great skills? What about the roulette player who has found a biased roulette wheel. He just needs to bet the same numbers without much thought. His edge stays unaffected. Why is it so different in trading? What exactly is an edge for a trader? Why is it so elusive?

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 Redneck 
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Paraphrasing Mark

An edge is nothing more than the probability of one thing happening over another



For a trader

Applying one’s plan unwaveringly – is an inherent edge
Applying one’s methodology unwaveringly – is an inherent edge


Why so elusive;

Because people are not inherently unwavering

==================================

imo;

people like short term pleasure / and prefer to defer short term pain - much to the determent of their long term success

unfortunately


RN

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 tigertrader 
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Redneck View Post
Paraphrasing Mark

An edge is nothing more than the probability of one thing happening over another



For a trader

Applying one’s plan unwaveringly – is an inherent edge
Applying one’s methodology unwaveringly – is an inherent edge


Why so elusive;

Because people are not inherently unwavering

==================================

imo;

people like short term pleasure / and prefer to defer short term pain - much to the determent of their long term success

unfortunately


RN


... and what if your plan or methodology is flawed?

then, what you thought was your edge, was in fact ...the ledge

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 josh 
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Redneck View Post
For a trader

Applying one’s plan unwaveringly – is an inherent edge
Applying one’s methodology unwaveringly – is an inherent edge

Ok, but one's plan and one's methodology must "work" first. If my plan says buy at A if X happens, and yours says sell at A if X happens, and our plans are consistently opposite one another, then even given a large sample, either one methodology will be consistently profitable, or neither will, but both cannot. It's a bit of an extreme example, but is sufficient to prove that a plan and a methodology applied in an unwavering manner does not necessarily yield any kind of edge at all.

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 tigertrader 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
Does creating an edge demand great skills? What about the roulette player who has found a biased roulette wheel. He just needs to bet the same numbers without much thought. His edge stays unaffected. Why is it so different in trading? What exactly is an edge for a trader? Why is it so elusive?

First of all, let me make it clear, that I do not define trading success as breakeven trading, or simply being profitable, but as the ability to support yourself and your family, solely from your trading, over an extended period of time, without reverting back to the mean. If you believe the statistics that are routinely disseminated, the percentage of traders that can lay claim to the title of "successful trader" is 5%, which in reality, is probably overestimated. So indeed, it must require a substantial amount of skills to generate an edge that would consistently produce the necessary profits.

There are a myriad of reasons (both internal and external) why most traders fail to become successful traders. I have often touched upon the most salient, in previous posts. But, not unlike the roulette player who has has stumbled upon a biased wheel, only to have the pit boss or casino manager pull the wheel as soon the word had gotten back to the house, any exploitable consistency or pattern in the market, will quickly be gamed out, and rendered less than useful. Markets are always changing, as the players change, and the algorithms change, hence the term "ever-changing- cycles." Most traders remain static and trade in a way that is most comfortable emotionally, and not necessarily most profitable.

I think my edge comes from "accepting" the market for what it really is - ever changing, and highly variant. It's not about being right or wrong the market, or predicting where the market is headed in the next moment, hour, day or week. Trading is nothing more than a probabilistic exercise, and a trade nothing more than a statistical data point - the next event in a series of events governed by the statistical random distribution of results. Nothing "has" to happen, and certainly not because it has happened in the past. But, I am prepared for it when it does happen, and fear does not guide my trade, so if I feel that I have the edge in the trade, I not only will not be shaken out, I will be adding to the trade.

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 Big Mike 
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I think key is 'extended period of time'. Most people think if they have a good month or even a good year they can trade but really I believe it takes longer periods of time to truly prove an edge vs just random luck.

Of course time is interchangeable with trade frequency, 10 trades a year is worth far less than 1,000 in my view when quantifying an edge.

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 Redneck 
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You are correct

My unstated assumption is/ was

The methodology is reasonable.., and meant for the sole purpose of extracting money from the mkt

The plan is reasonable..., and meant to place one in a state ready to extract money from the mkt.., while making he/ she oblivious to all else

==========================

Fully acknowledge some trade simply for the juice/ ego/ fun/ God knows what

Their plan(s) / methodology(s) is/ are of course inferior

My apologies

========================
btw;

Creating a reasonable plan/ methodology ain't rocket science - it's only trading... (for a single purpose of course)



RN






josh View Post
Ok, but one's plan and one's methodology must "work" first. If my plan says buy at A if X happens, and yours says sell at A if X happens, and our plans are consistently opposite one another, then even given a large sample, either one methodology will be consistently profitable, or neither will, but both cannot. It's a bit of an extreme example, but is sufficient to prove that a plan and a methodology applied in an unwavering manner does not necessarily yield any kind of edge at all.


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 Redneck 
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Then you're trading for reasons other than making money - or too stubborn/ stupid/ egotistical to change - or both

eta; A trader can make money.. or make excuses - they will never do both

RN



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... and what if your plan or methodology is flawed?

then, what you thought was your edge, was in fact ...the ledge


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 Big Mike 
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Redneck View Post
Then you're trading for reasons other than making money

I trade for reasons other than money. Money is an important reason, but there are others.

Mike

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Big Mike View Post
I trade for reasons other than money. Money is an important reason, but there are others.

Mike

And that is the beauty - we will get out of it exactly what we want... a true mirror in to our inner being


personally - I'm a greedy / stingy bastard - especially with my losers

RN

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 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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Asking if psychology plays a role in trading, is like asking whether psychology plays a role in success.
Of curse it does, because without determination, sweat and sacrifice you get nowhere.

But, in the trading world "psychology" has become the blame game, the bastard child, the whipping lash and the S&M session that we all have go through while reclining our heads with shame when someone says you says "hey, you trading sucks, you need to work on your psychology".

I went through buying highs, selling lows, panicking, getting excited and so did YOU.
But, I assure you that we all don't have the same psychological issue.

What helped me over time is understanding market structure, how buyers and sellers interact, why new highs brings more highs, and above all when not to trade.
I have learned from selected few who were great in teaching me market structure, volume and pattern recognition while the psychology books came after.

The industry of educators, mentors, and all the vendors, etc caught wind of the fact that everyone makes the same errors and isn't it just "genius" to point out the obvious? Trading is a business where if you know 2% more than your friend, you are considered a wunder kid. I have made here a webinar a while back about "psychology" but I had no intention of sounding like a clinical psychologist or pick on anyone, it was merely my experience with customers with the best attempt to help. A series of psychology topics came after in webinars which for the most part were good, except for one where he ripped everyone for pieces and called everyone undisciplined and greedy. Thank you, Thank you very much (read as Elvis would) and now what?

The bottom line is that you can turn psychology into a hoax, or make it part of your trading experience in the right place in the right time.

Like @tigertrader said it's 5% successful if that...which means that most of the one who you consider successful are not...they are just good in lecturing you.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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 plethora 
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mattz View Post
I have learned from selected few who were great in teaching me market structure, volume and pattern recognition...

I am asking a third time which teachers you would recommend? If you don't want to post it here, could I trouble you to email me.

Thank you, Matt "The Source" Z.

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plethora View Post
I am asking a third time which teachers you would recommend? If you don't want to post it here, could I trouble you to email me.

Thank you, Matt "The Source" Z.

I will email you with pleasure. I choose not to put it here because there have been threads that have been started by competitors who are bored out of their mind with the purpose of drawing negativity. They ask a question about a vendor, everyone says it's a scam, they they disappear never to say any other word. goal achieved.
Please don't reply with the icons of laugh and sarcasm. This is very serious to me.
Like I said, if you email with I will respond when I have the time with a list.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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 Big Mike 
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mattz View Post
I will email you with pleasure. I choose not to put it here because there have been threads that have been started by competitors who are bored out of their mind with the purpose of drawing negativity. They ask a question about a vendor, everyone says it's a scam, they they disappear never to say any other word. goal achieved.
Please don't reply with the icons of laugh and sarcasm. This is very serious to me.
Like I said, if you email with I will respond when I have the time with a list.

And if any such post was made on futures.io (formerly BMT), I hope that you reported it, because I take it very seriously and always look very closely when someone is either praising or complaining about any paid service to make sure it is a legit user and honest feedback.

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Big Mike View Post
And if any such post was made on futures.io (formerly BMT), I hope that you reported it, because I take it very seriously and always look very closely when someone is either praising or complaining about any paid service to make sure it is a legit user and honest feedback.

Mike

100% I will. Not to cause drama on the site, I PM or email you so you can make the decision.
But, these "shills in reverse" are smart the way they go about it, first they pretend to interact, share their "trading journey" etc, and then boom...the "What do you guys think....I have my doubt about XYZ...."
and no posts after. So everyone looks at what he posted before, but not after, so the thread stays.

I know it is VERY hard as a moderator to monitor all, and so far you did an awesome job.
Yet, keep in mind that futures.io (formerly BMT) is so deeply rooted with Google, competitors know if they mention
their competition in bad light it will show up. Sadly, they already know how to "stir" the futures.io (formerly BMT) crowd towards their goals.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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 Big Mike 
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mattz View Post
100% I will. Not to cause drama on the site, I PM or email you so you can make the decision.
But, these "shills in reverse" are smart the way they go about it, first they pretend to interact, share their "trading journey" etc, and then boom...the "What do you guys think....I have my doubt about XYZ...."
and no posts after. So everyone looks at what he posted before, but not after, so the thread stays.

I know it is VERY hard as a moderator to monitor all, and so far you did an awesome job.
Yet, keep in mind that futures.io (formerly BMT) is so deeply rooted with Google, competitors know if they mention
their competition in bad light it will show up. Sadly, they already know how to "stir" the futures.io (formerly BMT) crowd towards their goals.

Yes, I am well aware of tactics used. I'm also aware of how many such users I have banned, not just 'educators' but other brokers as well for such tactics.

The point I was making was that it is safe to post on futures.io (formerly BMT).

Mike

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Big Mike View Post
Yes, I am well aware of tactics used. I'm also aware of how many such users I have banned, not just 'educators' but other brokers as well for such tactics.

The point I was making was that it is safe to post on futures.io (formerly BMT).

Mike

Like I said, you did a great job considering the size of site and # of posts.
Mike, the fact that I am here on this site for years and choose to interact amongst people who I consider civil is a testament of your efforts. I have been in this business for many years and never interacted to the same degree as here because of the loose code of humanity applied on other forums.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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 Redneck 
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mattz View Post
Asking if psychology plays a role in trading, is like asking whether psychology plays a role in success.
Of curse it does, because without determination, sweat and sacrifice you get nowhere.

But, in the trading world "psychology" has become the blame game, the bastard child, the whipping lash and the S&M session that we all have go through while reclining our heads with shame when someone says you says "hey, you trading sucks, you need to work on your psychology".

I went through buying highs, selling lows, panicking, getting excited and so did YOU.
But, I assure you that we all don't have the same psychological issue.

What helped me over time is understanding market structure, how buyers and sellers interact, why new highs brings more highs, and above all when not to trade.
I have learned from selected few who were great in teaching me market structure, volume and pattern recognition while the psychology books came after.

The industry of educators, mentors, and all the vendors, etc caught wind of the fact that everyone makes the same errors and isn't it just "genius" to point out the obvious? Trading is a business where if you know 2% more than your friend, you are considered a wunder kid. I have made here a webinar a while back about "psychology" but I had no intention of sounding like a clinical psychologist or pick on anyone, it was merely my experience with customers with the best attempt to help. A series of psychology topics came after in webinars which for the most part were good, except for one where he ripped everyone for pieces and called everyone undisciplined and greedy. Thank you, Thank you very much (read as Elvis would) and now what?

The bottom line is that you can turn psychology into a hoax, or make it part of your trading experience in the right place in the right time.

Like @tigertrader said it's 5% successful if that...which means that most of the one who you consider successful are not...they are just good in lecturing you.



in my not so humble opinion - trading is 5 - 7% skills... 93 - 95% psychology

(The nut behind the mouse is always 100% accountable... and responsible)

I don't cotton to vendors much - possibly you are different - i truly don't know

RN

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Redneck View Post
in my not so humble opinion - trading is 5 - 7% skills... 93 - 95% psychology

(The nut behind the mouse is always 100% accountable... and responsible)

I don't cotton to vendors much - possibly you are different - i truly don't know

RN

So entry, exit, method is 5%, but if you are real really disciplined @ 95% level, then it will work. got it.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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siggyboss
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Quoting 
...the demons of fear and greed.

have done well for the human species for the last two hundred thousand years relative to other species.



Quoting 
Ask again, why someone who has all the answers about how to run a successful trading "business" would spend time with a bunch of "failures" know it all not good for trading, for $300 an hour where he can potentially make many times more just having a trading "business."

Well, someone may be better at coaching than trading, they don't want to take on the financial risk in trading relative to coaching, they enjoy helping others more than trading, they trade and coach others, etc.

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  #89 (permalink)
 Redneck 
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mattz View Post
got it.


Obviously not

RN

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  #90 (permalink)
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Obviously not

RN

You win.

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  #91 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Redneck View Post
Obviously not

RN


mattz View Post
You win.

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  #92 (permalink)
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I apologize. I had no intentions of developing anything into a fight.
I just wanted to end it.

M

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  #93 (permalink)
zonkilam
Ottawa ON
 
 
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aligator View Post
Thanks. It all boils down the the big".....IF....." , explained a few times before in this thread. So, if a [Trader] does not address this "big if" first, he should get out of trading and stop wasting more money consulting a shrink.

Exactly, a man has to know his limitations (CE); if he can’t mastered it’s not for him and he has to move on to do something else

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 tigertrader 
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mattz View Post
I apologize. I had no intentions of developing anything into a fight.
I just wanted to end it.

M

no need to apologize, the guy is טיפש !

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 plethora 
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Lol

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tigertrader View Post
no need to apologize, the guy is טיפש !

You crack me up to tears!

M

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 tigertrader 
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 PandaWarrior 
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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #99 (permalink)
 Redneck 
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Big Mike View Post
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Mike


No worries – your sandbox, your rules – I can respect that….

Although…, dissension is healthy – it’s what makes a mkt



Glad the small stuff doesn't interfere w/ my trading – wonder if it could be the psychology - naaaa

LOL

Trade well – win, lose, or draw

RN

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 aligator 
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siggyboss View Post
"...the demons of fear and greed" have done well for the human species for the last two hundred thousand years relative to other species.

"Greedy feeds on others' fear ......" Old wisdom


siggyboss View Post
Well, someone may be better at coaching than trading


"One can teach only what one practices ....." Zen teachings

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