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Is Trading Psychology a Hoax?


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Is Trading Psychology a Hoax?

  #71 (permalink)
 
tigertrader's Avatar
 tigertrader 
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Redneck View Post
Paraphrasing Mark

An edge is nothing more than the probability of one thing happening over another



For a trader

Applying one’s plan unwaveringly – is an inherent edge
Applying one’s methodology unwaveringly – is an inherent edge


Why so elusive;

Because people are not inherently unwavering

==================================

imo;

people like short term pleasure / and prefer to defer short term pain - much to the determent of their long term success

unfortunately


RN


... and what if your plan or methodology is flawed?

then, what you thought was your edge, was in fact ...the ledge

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  #72 (permalink)
 
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 josh 
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Redneck View Post
For a trader

Applying one’s plan unwaveringly – is an inherent edge
Applying one’s methodology unwaveringly – is an inherent edge

Ok, but one's plan and one's methodology must "work" first. If my plan says buy at A if X happens, and yours says sell at A if X happens, and our plans are consistently opposite one another, then even given a large sample, either one methodology will be consistently profitable, or neither will, but both cannot. It's a bit of an extreme example, but is sufficient to prove that a plan and a methodology applied in an unwavering manner does not necessarily yield any kind of edge at all.

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  #73 (permalink)
 
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 tigertrader 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
Does creating an edge demand great skills? What about the roulette player who has found a biased roulette wheel. He just needs to bet the same numbers without much thought. His edge stays unaffected. Why is it so different in trading? What exactly is an edge for a trader? Why is it so elusive?

First of all, let me make it clear, that I do not define trading success as breakeven trading, or simply being profitable, but as the ability to support yourself and your family, solely from your trading, over an extended period of time, without reverting back to the mean. If you believe the statistics that are routinely disseminated, the percentage of traders that can lay claim to the title of "successful trader" is 5%, which in reality, is probably overestimated. So indeed, it must require a substantial amount of skills to generate an edge that would consistently produce the necessary profits.

There are a myriad of reasons (both internal and external) why most traders fail to become successful traders. I have often touched upon the most salient, in previous posts. But, not unlike the roulette player who has has stumbled upon a biased wheel, only to have the pit boss or casino manager pull the wheel as soon the word had gotten back to the house, any exploitable consistency or pattern in the market, will quickly be gamed out, and rendered less than useful. Markets are always changing, as the players change, and the algorithms change, hence the term "ever-changing- cycles." Most traders remain static and trade in a way that is most comfortable emotionally, and not necessarily most profitable.

I think my edge comes from "accepting" the market for what it really is - ever changing, and highly variant. It's not about being right or wrong the market, or predicting where the market is headed in the next moment, hour, day or week. Trading is nothing more than a probabilistic exercise, and a trade nothing more than a statistical data point - the next event in a series of events governed by the statistical random distribution of results. Nothing "has" to happen, and certainly not because it has happened in the past. But, I am prepared for it when it does happen, and fear does not guide my trade, so if I feel that I have the edge in the trade, I not only will not be shaken out, I will be adding to the trade.

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  #74 (permalink)
 
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 Big Mike 
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I think key is 'extended period of time'. Most people think if they have a good month or even a good year they can trade but really I believe it takes longer periods of time to truly prove an edge vs just random luck.

Of course time is interchangeable with trade frequency, 10 trades a year is worth far less than 1,000 in my view when quantifying an edge.

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  #75 (permalink)
 Redneck 
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You are correct

My unstated assumption is/ was

The methodology is reasonable.., and meant for the sole purpose of extracting money from the mkt

The plan is reasonable..., and meant to place one in a state ready to extract money from the mkt.., while making he/ she oblivious to all else

==========================

Fully acknowledge some trade simply for the juice/ ego/ fun/ God knows what

Their plan(s) / methodology(s) is/ are of course inferior

My apologies

========================
btw;

Creating a reasonable plan/ methodology ain't rocket science - it's only trading... (for a single purpose of course)



RN






josh View Post
Ok, but one's plan and one's methodology must "work" first. If my plan says buy at A if X happens, and yours says sell at A if X happens, and our plans are consistently opposite one another, then even given a large sample, either one methodology will be consistently profitable, or neither will, but both cannot. It's a bit of an extreme example, but is sufficient to prove that a plan and a methodology applied in an unwavering manner does not necessarily yield any kind of edge at all.


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  #76 (permalink)
 Redneck 
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Then you're trading for reasons other than making money - or too stubborn/ stupid/ egotistical to change - or both

eta; A trader can make money.. or make excuses - they will never do both

RN



tigertrader View Post
... and what if your plan or methodology is flawed?

then, what you thought was your edge, was in fact ...the ledge


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  #77 (permalink)
 
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 Big Mike 
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Redneck View Post
Then you're trading for reasons other than making money

I trade for reasons other than money. Money is an important reason, but there are others.

Mike

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  #78 (permalink)
 Redneck 
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Big Mike View Post
I trade for reasons other than money. Money is an important reason, but there are others.

Mike

And that is the beauty - we will get out of it exactly what we want... a true mirror in to our inner being


personally - I'm a greedy / stingy bastard - especially with my losers

RN

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  #79 (permalink)
 
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Asking if psychology plays a role in trading, is like asking whether psychology plays a role in success.
Of curse it does, because without determination, sweat and sacrifice you get nowhere.

But, in the trading world "psychology" has become the blame game, the bastard child, the whipping lash and the S&M session that we all have go through while reclining our heads with shame when someone says you says "hey, you trading sucks, you need to work on your psychology".

I went through buying highs, selling lows, panicking, getting excited and so did YOU.
But, I assure you that we all don't have the same psychological issue.

What helped me over time is understanding market structure, how buyers and sellers interact, why new highs brings more highs, and above all when not to trade.
I have learned from selected few who were great in teaching me market structure, volume and pattern recognition while the psychology books came after.

The industry of educators, mentors, and all the vendors, etc caught wind of the fact that everyone makes the same errors and isn't it just "genius" to point out the obvious? Trading is a business where if you know 2% more than your friend, you are considered a wunder kid. I have made here a webinar a while back about "psychology" but I had no intention of sounding like a clinical psychologist or pick on anyone, it was merely my experience with customers with the best attempt to help. A series of psychology topics came after in webinars which for the most part were good, except for one where he ripped everyone for pieces and called everyone undisciplined and greedy. Thank you, Thank you very much (read as Elvis would) and now what?

The bottom line is that you can turn psychology into a hoax, or make it part of your trading experience in the right place in the right time.

Like @tigertrader said it's 5% successful if that...which means that most of the one who you consider successful are not...they are just good in lecturing you.

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  #80 (permalink)
 
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mattz View Post
I have learned from selected few who were great in teaching me market structure, volume and pattern recognition...

I am asking a third time which teachers you would recommend? If you don't want to post it here, could I trouble you to email me.

Thank you, Matt "The Source" Z.

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