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Need advice.
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Need advice.

  #11 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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Cashish View Post
"I convince myself that money does not matter," I believe this is a clue.
The fact is, money does matter, that's why risk management is so important.

Once I think about the money it's all over. I can't think about the money when I trade. I have no problems being -40 ticks on a trade, but if I multiply 40 with the number of dollars per tick and number of contracts I will get a heart attack.


redratsal View Post
Have you ever thought transcripting your discretionary trading into a bot, It doesn't have to be the exact methodology but it helps:

1) Collect long historical and statistical data
2) Gain confidence
3) Compare discretionary vs mechanical

If removing your limit order is a one click easy/too often problem, you could build an indicator/strategy with some warning text (like are you sure you want to cancel limit order....), this would make the process more complicate and allow you time to re think your action, instead of simply clicking on your mouse. Besides, the main problem with changing your plan has to do with fear, and that is a very introspective and subjective process, no one can really give you advices, it has to come from you. Maybe writing a journal can help.

No, I don't do backtesting any more. It's stupid to find edges in historical data, because 1. you never know if those 5000 trades that you have tested are ahead because of a random distribution in the favor of that strategy or because it truly works. 2. The data has been raped so many times it is just not worth raping it another.

I don't do mechanical trading, because my experience gives me an edge, my SL and TP are discretionary.

Again, I have no problems with my approach. And yes thanks for pointing out that it is tough to give me an advice with the problem that I have.

All I need is a guy hitting me each time I do wrong things.

I'm gonna go with going away from computer when my pending is about to be approached.


Last edited by ReaM; August 28th, 2012 at 02:22 PM.
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  #12 (permalink)
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ReaM View Post
Once I think about the money it's all over. I can't think about the money when I trade. I have no problems being -40 ticks on a trade, but if I multiply 40 with the number of dollars per tick and number of contracts I will get a heart attack.


All I need is a guy hitting me each time I do wrong things.

I'm on babysitting detail this afternoon so I have some time to ask you a few more questions. When was the last time while you were driving your car down the road, approaching an intersection with the intention to turn right, you actually had a conscious thought of, and made a conscious decision to, move your turn signal indicator switch to the correct position to indicate to other drivers you intended to make a right hand turn? Probably, when you were about 16 years old! Even though you haven't given conscious thought to the correct movement of your turn signal switch, I bet you've been doing it correctly for years.

To your subconscious, ticks, pips, points, Yen, Euros and dollars are synonymous. Just as your subconscious mind knows which position you intend to place the turn signal indicator switch, it also knows the dollar value of a pip, point or tick of the contract your trading. Your statement above is similar to a flashing neon sign saying, Here's the Problem. You're fooling yourself, or trying to. You believe, "Once I think about the money it's all over," the truth is subconsciously you already are thinking about the money, in fact I'll go so far as to suggest subconsciously you're thinking about losing money. Thinking about losing money to such a degree that those subconscious beliefs manifest themselves with enough intensity to become conscious, and you, pull your standing order.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they usually stink! I'll give you that. But IMO, if you or any other trader can't look at the dollars and cents on the bottom of their DOM, without, "...... I will get a heart attack," then they are not absolutely comfortable with the level of risk they're trading. A tick is a pip is a point is a dollar, your subconscious mind, my subconscious mind, his subconscious mind and her subconscious mind already knows this. Getting up and walking way won't work, having someone hit you with a bat won't work, getting completely comfortable with strict risk management rules will.


The one thing I know about advice is, it's easier to give than it is to accept. I don't give advice I make suggestions, take a serious look at what's going on here.


Last edited by Cashish; August 28th, 2012 at 05:56 PM.
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  #13 (permalink)
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Thanks for the post.

Yeah, maybe subconsciously I do think about the money. But not in a trade. I am pretty sure, because when I am in a trade I don't have the P/L displayed anywhere (I just have the MD Trader open) and I count visual ticks, I don't have something like "-12" displayed anywhere, I think it would only disappoint me to see -$500 even if it was totally OK and according to plan. I really don't think about money I am pretty sure. I don't even know how much I've lost or won until later.

When I am about to make trade maybe there is some of it there.

I still think it is not about risk management. I am planning to double my risk (it would still be ok).

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  #14 (permalink)
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ReaM View Post
Hello,

to make things shorter: I am a winning player but psychological problems intervene and ruin everything.
I have only one problem and I am sure most traders or maybe even all of them have that problem. I need to fix it as soon as possible or else I will never reach my goals.

I am a discretionary trader. When recognize some pattern that I saw before I would enter or put a limit order if I see the pattern earlier. So far so good. From that point on, I have little influence on what will actually happen with the price. Once the order is hit, that's it. But I ruin lots of trades by removing those orders (that were not hit) and I have no idea how to fix it.

Once the trade is opened I actually feel relaxed, but the biggest problem are pending orders. I remove them a couple of ticks before I actually would have the trade open. I rethink the situation and with usually the emotion of fear remove the pending order.

I did not make more than a thousand dollars last week, because I removed all my pending orders. It's a problem now.


What works so far:
  1. Standing up and going into another room and checking how position is doing from time to time. Same with pending orders. Last week I went to bathroom, came back I saw my pending order was gone and there was no position order. No struggle, no rethinking, no nothing. Easy win.
  2. I often meditate that one trade does not matter in a series of trades and that there still is a long way to go, thousands of trades.
  3. I convince myself that money does not matter.
But then, if I forget all that, everything reverses and I am removing those again.

I have stickers on monitor reminding me of my golas, of variance. I played a lot of poker, but it did not help so far. I don't have that same problem in poker. It's like I lost my balls, you know.

Maybe sports will help? I need a practical advice I guess. I have zero ego in markets. I need at least some so I can enter trades. How do I increase my ego? I noticed playing poker I have a lot of ego, I sometimes throw chips worst cards. That probably comes from not knowing what the right play is, so I rely on instincts to maybe try to scare the opponent. With markets it is the opposite, I know too much and chose very good trades, but something holds me back. Last 50 trades or so were all gold, but I did not take like 100 trades (most of which would end up winners).

Hi @ReaM

I had a similar issue. The problem was emotion was clouding my judgement. Based on what you have posted it sounds very similar issue. Unfortunately this happens to every trader. Removing or controlling emotion is probably is one of the most difficult things to do as a trader.

Two things I did to control the issue; I started practicing mindfulness. This helped me identify where the fear was coming from. There after once the fear reared its ugly head, I basically said out loud: "I don't care what happens" Every time I reached for the mouse I said out loud "I don't care what happens" Pretty soon I was able to ignore the emotion and make rational decisions based on what the chart said, not what my emotions were telling me.

of course, this is a double edge sword. Many times my emotions were right about getting out of a trade which means I ended up taking bad trades and then I started second guessing if my technique actually worked. To solve and re-assure myself I was on the right path, I went back the chart and identified why the trade failed. Nearly every bad trade I had missed a signal. After some practice (still practicing!) I was able to get out of those trades using the charts instead of emotions. If the trade ends up bad I go back and identify why I missed it.

Another technique you might try writing down the random thoughts of what you are feeling after you place the order. For some people knowing what the fear is allows them to control it. The writing is not meant to be coherent but rather random thoughts and words which can be used to identify the emotion which is controlling you.

For me, I dont think the momentary doubt about entering or exiting a trade will ever go away. But at least now I can recognize and keep it in check.

Finally, and this is for your own sanity, I doubt you will find one holy grail solution which will totally solve your problem. It will probably will be a hybrid of several of the ideas mention in your thread or solutions found on your own. If you intend to do trading as a career then whatever you come up with needs to be simplistic and understandable only by you. it does not matter what anyone else thinks. Plus you need to be able to intact it at moments notice, so Keep it simple! The more steps there are or more complicated it is the less likely you will stick with it and make it work.

Robert

nosce te ipsum

You make your own opportunities in life.

Last edited by Silver Dragon; August 28th, 2012 at 05:11 PM.
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  #15 (permalink)
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ReaM View Post
Hello,

to make things shorter: I am a winning player but psychological problems intervene and ruin everything.
I have only one problem and I am sure most traders or maybe even all of them have that problem. I need to fix it as soon as possible or else I will never reach my goals.

I am a discretionary trader. When recognize some pattern that I saw before I would enter or put a limit order if I see the pattern earlier. So far so good. From that point on, I have little influence on what will actually happen with the price. Once the order is hit, that's it. But I ruin lots of trades by removing those orders (that were not hit) and I have no idea how to fix it.

Once the trade is opened I actually feel relaxed, but the biggest problem are pending orders. I remove them a couple of ticks before I actually would have the trade open. I rethink the situation and with usually the emotion of fear remove the pending order.

I did not make more than a thousand dollars last week, because I removed all my pending orders. It's a problem now.


What works so far:
  1. Standing up and going into another room and checking how position is doing from time to time. Same with pending orders. Last week I went to bathroom, came back I saw my pending order was gone and there was no position order. No struggle, no rethinking, no nothing. Easy win.
  2. I often meditate that one trade does not matter in a series of trades and that there still is a long way to go, thousands of trades.
  3. I convince myself that money does not matter.
But then, if I forget all that, everything reverses and I am removing those again.

I have stickers on monitor reminding me of my golas, of variance. I played a lot of poker, but it did not help so far. I don't have that same problem in poker. It's like I lost my balls, you know.

Maybe sports will help? I need a practical advice I guess. I have zero ego in markets. I need at least some so I can enter trades. How do I increase my ego? I noticed playing poker I have a lot of ego, I sometimes throw chips worst cards. That probably comes from not knowing what the right play is, so I rely on instincts to maybe try to scare the opponent. With markets it is the opposite, I know too much and chose very good trades, but something holds me back. Last 50 trades or so were all gold, but I did not take like 100 trades (most of which would end up winners).

There is a reason you're doing this and I would just go with it.. I believe your problem will fix itself as you recognize this and see the end results more and more.. Every decision you make in trading has to be yours.. You earn your confidence 1 trade at a time.. there are no short cuts in execution, we all have to go thru this process..

BTW-I've done the same thing in the past.. I tried to handle this by muting my inner voice to disconnect that feeling, which I thought was emotions but there is a difference.. Good trading comes from a harmony of both thinking and intuitive.. not by eliminating one to help the other, rather complementing one another..

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  #16 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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Thank you Robert and Jedi,

the thread and all the replies are of a tremendous value. As many of you have said, I am on my own.

Reaching for the mouse is a real problem hehe. Even standing up helps a lot with open trades. When I am on my feet I am less afraid (less fear).

While problems with open trades persist, like closing a trade too early, I managed to somewhat solve most of them. I often exercise while the trade is open like a couple of push ups to keep the trade off the trade. Now I need to solve this other problem.

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  #17 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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A little update:

It worked great. Just a minute ago when a limit order was about to get hit I stood up and went brushing my teeth.

Also, looking at the monitor from a distance (like 15 feet) I felt very calm. I did want to run over there and do something but at leat I still can control my legs =)

I ll let you know in a month if the adjustment is a permanent one.

This is the "let go" of control scene from Fight Club, but it cuts too early, they crash (spoiler alert):
Just Let Go - YouTube

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  #18 (permalink)
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This might help if you can find some, I've been looking for years.

Sapho, or more commonly the Juice of Sapho, is a high-energy liquid extracted from the barrier roots of the planet Ecaz. It was used by Mentats who claim that it amplifies the mental powers on the human mind. Users develop deep ruby stains on their mouth and lips.


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  #19 (permalink)
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lol. Brad Dourif with that hairdo and the mentat's bushy eyebrows. Remember not to miss Patrick Stewart(Cpt. Picard) as Gurney Halleck and Sting! Brad Dourif , horror genre actor, seen in Babylon5 as the brainwiped priest, Alien Resurrection, and The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers as Grima Wormtongue "get out of my way!" .

I thought that was a "spice" drink the mentats were drinking? Haven't seen the movie or read the book in so many years.. That was such a crazy (and disgustingly gory, sickening) movie ("Dune", 198r) when it came out. (although the blocky "personal shields" were cool. "The slow blade passes thru!" ) Yeah, that "I set my mind in motion" repeated fast was totally wierd and disjarring when I first saw the movie..


Last edited by Cloudy; August 29th, 2012 at 06:41 AM.
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  #20 (permalink)
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argh, three pendings were not reached by one tick today and yesterday. Which is two ticks, since the last ticks had low volume, but still. Now I WANT my pendings to get hit haha.

Also on monday did not get a fill. Amazing how much luck there is in market. If some fish just clicked to buy 75 contracts I would have been filled.

Update: Friday did not go too well, only 200 instead of 750 profits.
Ill see how next week goes, if same I would seek professional help haha. No, really, I dont wanna earn 100 bucks a day, I dont need that stress. Need to get rich quick and quit before supermachines take over.

I really need a guy with a baseballbat standing next to me or else Pavlov got his Nobel price for nothing! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

But overall, I was a lot calmer. I am working on it.


Last edited by ReaM; August 31st, 2012 at 06:32 PM.
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