Winners and Losers - Psychology and Money Management | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Winners and Losers
Updated: Views / Replies:1,019 / 9
Created: by kerrmac Attachments:0

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors – all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you don’t need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Winners and Losers

  #1 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
glasgow+scotland
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: none
Favorite Futures: stocks
 
Posts: 21 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 2 given, 18 received

Winners and Losers

90% of traders lose. Its a well known fact. This may alter slightly to 89% or 91% but over the very long term this statistic is very much cast in stone. So what is the reason for this huge imbalance of distribution in trading profits? Below is a list of factors which contribute to the imbalance.

If you feel uncomfortable when reading this, then you are likely seeing some examples here which might remind you of yourself.

You can draw comfort from the fact that this page will only be read by winners who might be requiring a little food for thought or having a bad spell, I hope that after reading this you will identify some of your negatives and find ways to turn them into positives. The losing traders will not be bothered even to cast even a glance at it.

Psychological approach to losses:

A paradox exists in winning and losing, and here it is. Losers do not lose enough. What does this mean? Well think on it for a moment before reading on...

Image a hapless man at a disco with his mates. He spots a cute girl he likes and makes a naive approach to ask for a dance or join him for a drink etc. She refuses and the hapless man typically becomes contrite and will not talk to any other girls through the rest of the evening. It is likely that he has had too much beer and has not made any effort to collate his history of success v failure with ladies so his approach may have been poor. Then instead imagine a more successful man, who approached the same girl, got rebuffed and then shrugged his shoulders and continued to approach more women until one responded to his charms. He remained calm and kept trying until he got what he wanted from the disco evening. This second man has the ability to see through disappointments due to his belief in himself and his knowledge of statistics. He knows that if he keeps trying sooner or later one cute lady will be certain to say yes to him. Comparing this scenario with trading seems illogical, but it is in fact very similar. The trader who loses and the Romeo who loses have this same connecting factor. They are not prepared to lose enough. A winning trader will take his losses because as a winning trader he knows that losing is a normal part of winning. A losing trader will not be so able to take his loss and will continue to keep a losing trade until it destroys both his confidence and his account balance. The losing trader wants to be a success, so he incorrectly believes that by making a small losing trade (and cutting a loss) that this renders him as a loser. Its a very common scenario, you can observe it every single day in every day life and in conversations with people. Keep your eyes and ears open and you will see what I mean.

Input of time spent on research:

A quality of losing traders is often lack of effort in the form of research and testing. They will typically read a few books and articles and then engage in day trading some highly popular busy market such as EUR/USD or the SP500 Emini futures. After losing most of their equity on their account they give up. A winning trader may repeat the same process but instead he - she will realise that something is wrong in their method or application of that method. They will pick themselves up from the floor and try something else ( taking on board the previous mistake as "part of their valuable education" ) The loser would cast blame on the market they traded and or the books they read or the system they purchased. This would give them a perfect opportunity to whinge and whine to their friends about what a rip off the book was or how crooked the market is. He will engage in his drama, and losers are generally full of dramas. They rarely see that their own personality is a reason for their constant flow of failures.
Attention to detail:

Finding edges is a vital part of trading. In this sense an edge is defined as a competitive advantage over others or some statistical scenario that leads to a greater probability of success. An attribute of a winning trader is that they will pay close attention to the little details as each one will likely improve his chances of overall long term winning.

Lets look at a little example:

Mr Loser and Mr Winner both correctly observe that Jubilee platinum has moved up a large percentage on a massive volume session of 19 million shares traded.
Both observe that this is a significant event and that this has changed the prior downtrend to a clear up trend.
Both observe that this is a failure to break the previous major low of 7p in March 2009.
Both observe that the general market trend is bullish at the same time.
Both have decided to buy Jubilee platinum today
So five details are seen by the winner and the loser, but that is typically the full extent of the losers analysis, and by comparison the winner will look deeper...

Mr Winner searches Google news to find out what is going on, he finds out that it was tipped over the weekend by a well respected newspaper tipster.
Mr Winner has experienced this kind of event before and has lost. So he knows to expect high volatility on the way up and uses a wider stop.
Mr Winner checks his account balance and computes his exposure and checks his risk per trade optimum percentage.
So just by using a little information to gain knowledge and find more edges, Mr Winner has created an advantage over Mr Loser. This raises his chances of making a winning trade. In the outcome of this example you can be sure Mr Loser has got excited and rushed in to buy this stock before Mr Winner has completed his analysis, he may have got a slightly better entry price than Mr Winner in the process, but he will have not given any consideration to his exit price stop or how much he will risk on this trade.
Mr Winner computes his stop needs to be 5.25 points in distance and therefore once dividing his risk per trade optimum by 5.25 he has a well researched exit level and deal size sorted out before he presses the button to make his purchase. Mr Loser had become over excited and acted on impulse after his first five observations were made and as a result he bought many more shares than his risk profile allowed, realising his error after he sees the price falling he computes that he will lose too much money if his stop loss gets hit, so he proceeds to make it tighter to reduce risk. This action will of course reduce his risk, but it will increase his chance of losing simply because his stop loss is now way too tight. Mr Loser is careless and is guilty of acting out the following well known proverb "Invest in haste, repent at leisure"
Mr Winner knows he has made his checks correctly and can focus on the correct process of looking for more trades to put on. Which leads us on to the next heading in a fluid way...

Look forward and not back:

Most of you will have heard this well known adage. Many opportunities are missed while we are thinking over our past mistakes. Our losing trader above will make a large loss on his rushed trade, and even if the winning trader loses on it also, he will lose only 1 or 2% of his capital which he is used to doing frequently as he understands it is part of the job. The losing trader will not find it so easy to deal with his loss as it is going to be bigger because he failed to think about the risks before he rushed into the trade.

The winner may also be upset by his losses, but instead of becoming self absorbed in them he becomes self aware and observes his own faults as he goes through his career. He learns to accept being upset as part of the game and will continue to trade even if he is having a large string of losses. He does this because he knows that his method produces an occasional string of losses and accepts it. He has taught himself to think backwards. This expression is contradicting the heading "look forward and not back" because it is referring to risk v reward situations. Read on...

Think backwards:

This one is simple to explain. Instead of thinking how much you can make if you buy Jubilee Platinum today, it is much more practical to ask yourself how much you can lose if you buy it today. This was one of the main differences between the foolish loser rushing in without thinking about risk, compared to the calm approach of the winning trader who computed his stops and risks before trading.

Greed and stupidity:

It has long been an observation of mine that there is a high correlation between greed and stupidity. The people I have known in my life who end up being victims of scams were always those who were both greedy and stupid. The wiser people who look at all the sides of a scam and try to figure out how it worked and thus avoid falling for it. A non-winner would just say it was a scam without trying to figure it out.
Being greedy in itself is not a bad thing as the movie Wall street teaches us "Greed is good", but when it is connected to stupidity and carelessness the results can be catastrophic. Greed is best when it is tempered with a cautious attitude to think it through and figure it all out before doing something in life. If you have ever been approached by someone trying to scam you and you are of the wise type, you will frequently notice that the scammer is of very low intelligence.
Simply because he is stupid he assumes you will be too. Needless to say a winning trader is not going to have stupidity as his counter for greed, and this quality is often one of the facets of a losing trader, who falls for the bells and buttons and shiny flashy screens presented by some worthless day trading system advertised online.
He will do some rushed and poor research and then rush out to buy the latest Hilbert transform system or a Fisher transform day trading model guaranteed to make millions in minutes.
Obsession and fascination v casual interest:

Being obsessed and or fascinated with trading methods and systems is usually an attribute of winners. I have observed this phenomenon many times in correspondence with both types of traders and on the other side of the curve is the casual loser who begins trading just for a hope of making money. He does not take such a keen interest in the processes that go on all around the methods and psychologies involved in it. The winning trader will typically develop a winning method in a year or so, and spend a lot of his "spare time" in trying to improve his methods.
He will see himself as a fatal limitation or barrier to making more profits and will work relentlessly on himself and his emotional responses to improve himself. This section is best ended with a wise quote from Ed Seykota.
In a conversation with another winning trader, Ed was told of an intention to help the losing trader become a winning trader by teaching him some important aspects he was missing. Ed Seykota's response was rather shocking, but after some thought is astoundingly accurate and correct.

A losing trader is not going to wish to transform himself, that is the sort of thing that only winning traders do.
Ponder this statement for a moment and you will see it is very true.
The arrogant man v the modest man:

In my correspondence with many traders from all over the world, I have observed that losing traders all seem to want something for nothing. They ask for free trial versions of my products, request huge unrealistic discounts and or try to fool me that they ordered something a long time ago and want the latest version or a prior version that they had never even ordered in the first place. They will ask for the best settings for trading their favourite market and want the whole lot dumped on their lap on a silver platter. Typically they will only trade one market and in comparison a winning trader will study hundreds or thousands of markets before choosing which of those to trade.

How do I know they are losers? Simply by observing their performances in my Trading IQ game combined with requests for my free products without earning them by scoring the required score in the game. On the other hand a winning trader will read the rules and then try to win his free indicator by getting the required score. The next point is very valid. The winner may not score high enough to win a prize, but the winner will return every week until he learns how to win enough points to get his prize. Conversely the hapless arrogant losing trader tries once only, fails and then never returns to try again.

The man who rushes v the man who takes his time:

Have you ever noticed some people are always in a rush? Even in a phone conversation they are in a hurry to spit out so many words without being sure that the listener is understanding their point. Losers are always in a rush to lose. The winner on the other hand will be taking his time, doing his research speaking slowly and clearly. When he trades he will apply all his checks before putting his trades on, or will have made certain his checks are factored into his automated systems before letting them rip on the markets. If you have ever watched Theo Pathitis on Dragons den, who is clearly an exceptional winning human being. You will notice how much time he seems to take when making his questions and statements. He is so far removed from carelessness that the whole world seems to stop when he speaks. He provides a good example of a winner who thinks before he acts. Winners never rush to lose.

The average man v The hard working man:

The average man doesn’t wish to be told that it is a bull or a bear market. What he desires is to be told specifically which particular stock to buy or sell. He wants to get something for nothing. He does not wish to work. He doesn’t even wish to have to think. He cant even be bothered to pick up the money he finds laying on the ground.

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to kerrmac for this post:
 
  #2 (permalink)
Quick Summary
Quick Summary Post

Quick Summary is created and edited by users like you... Add FAQ's, Links and other Relevant Information by clicking the edit button in the lower right hand corner of this message.

 
  #3 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 128 given, 703 received


Being an engineer type, I find that approaching the vast majority of problems from a systems engineering approach allows us to properly frame/diagnose the problems (and ultimately the solution).

Having said that, here's a passage from a recent article I read about pro sports betting and how one of the large makers identifies successful bettors...

"The most accurate way we have found, to distinguish winning and losing players is to look at the odds a player received when they made their bet, and compare it with the Pinnacle Sports closing line on the game. If a player consistently beats our closing price, they are likely to be a long-term winner – period. Interestingly, we have found that this test is more reflective of a player’s future winning potential, than their historical win/loss record with the company.

For example, if our closing price on say the Steelers at -3 on the spread was -104 (1.96 in decimals), and a customer played -3 +105 (2.05) earlier in the week, that was a sharp bet. When a player can anticipate the line movement, and does this consistently over a series of 100 bets or more, that player is conclusively sharp, and will be up substantially in profit over the long run.

What’s the quickest way to identify a player that needs to adjust their style of betting? One who plays a bad price. If other bookmakers offer Pittsburgh at -3 -120, and a player wagers there instead, when a better price was available elsewhere, such as -3 -104 at Pinnacle Sports, he is almost certainly not sharp. Even if he has been winning to date, in the long run, the laws of statistics will catch up with them, and they will almost certainly lose over time.

In essence, every bet, every investment, every trade, every business transaction is essentially an application of risk and reward. If you're constantly risking less than the potential payout/reward, you'll be successful in the long haul. If you're consistently risking more than the potential reward/payout, the law of statistics says that over time you'll eventually end up in the red.

Why do people take positions, bets, ventures that have a disadvantageous risk/reward?

Here are some of the most common.

1) A complete lack of understanding or managing risk and reward. How to calculate it, how to manage it, along with your available capital.
2) Undercapitalization. Even if traders, bettors, capitalists understand risk management, many take excessive risks because of some external constraint.
It's much easier to make a 10% annual return off $1M and live/pay your bills than it is to make a 100% return off $100k account.
3) Execution challenges, which are a myriad of the challenges you outlined above, from lack of knowledge, to execution competency, discipline and planning, etc.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
Reply With Quote
 
  #4 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 128 given, 703 received

A second order effect (that essentially allows casinos to be printing presses) is drawdown.

Even if you have a risk/reward edge (say 51% win rate on a 1:1 RR bet) you still run considerable risk of being "felted" or running out of available money. All the casino/house has to do is get you on a string of losers that will bring your capital to zero and they end up with your money and you end up bumming $10 from your buddy for breakfast at the buffet.

This is also why casinos pay special attention to "whales" who have considerable capital with respect to the casino. To the average player, the casino represents an infinite pool of money to play against, a whale has a much higher chance of really hurting the casino. Casinos know that if they get most whales to play long enough, they'll end up losing it all back to the house. (of course there are other factors like alcohol, fatigue, etc) but in principle, it demonstrates the concept of drawdowns and the need for Monte Carlo analysis.

A player who has a 51% 1:1 RR, would need to have a very large bankroll (more than 100 standard betting units) in order to have enough to endure all but a 1/100 chance of a catastrophic drawdown.

Drawdown, rather than profitability is the biggest killer of most traders.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
Reply With Quote
 
  #5 (permalink)
Observe. Know yourself
Granada, Spain
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Multicharts
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: Futures, FX
 
dog4's Avatar
 
Posts: 13 since Jan 2012
Thanks: 11 given, 40 received

want to be one of the 5% winners?

... then read this article

The gold medal coach - Telegraph

awesome

Reply With Quote
The following 7 users say Thank You to dog4 for this post:
 
  #6 (permalink)
Elite Member
United Kingdom
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Multicharts
Favorite Futures: Dow
 
PositiveDeviant's Avatar
 
Posts: 587 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 257 given, 253 received

"95 per cent of events in any given sport are consistently won by just five per cent of participants.”

Very interesting and very similar to trading.

"The primary thing required to obtain what you want from life, is simply the will to pursue it, and the faith to believe it is possible." - Author Unknown

"The ability to maintain discipline and stick to the rules is the hallmark of the experienced successful trader" - Curtis Faith
Reply With Quote
 
  #7 (permalink)
Elite Member
Denver, Colorado
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader
Favorite Futures: ES, CL, anything that makes $$
 
Posts: 178 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 157 given, 72 received

Extra thank you


dog4 View Post
... then read this article

The gold medal coach - Telegraph

awesome

That is the best article I have read in awhile. I have always believed in the power of positive thinking and visualization, but was never able to fully embrace it due to rough upbringing and other personal challenges. I am going to call him and see about taking his course. I have spent thousands on NLP, Tony Robbins, hypnosis, meditation, you name it. Thank you again this guy has the empirical proof to back up his claim.

When I am truly honest I am a negative, cynical person, with dashs of positive. That's probably has a lot to do with why I haven't made it yet. The worst part is I know the right thing to do I just can't get myself to do it consistently if at all.

Here's a question I have always struggled with. How do you remain positive and realistic at the same time?: I joke sometimes that I should strive for cautious optimism. If all of us were so positive about every trading course and method we would be bankrupt and have no funds to trade?

BTW Granada is lovely this time of year, spent my post college backpacking trip there, best part of Spain IMO.

Reply With Quote
 
  #8 (permalink)
Observe. Know yourself
Granada, Spain
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Multicharts
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: Futures, FX
 
dog4's Avatar
 
Posts: 13 since Jan 2012
Thanks: 11 given, 40 received


dandxg View Post
That is the best article I have read in awhile. I have always believed in the power of positive thinking and visualization, but was never able to fully embrace it due to rough upbringing and other personal challenges. I am going to call him and see about taking his course. I have spent thousands on NLP, Tony Robbins, hypnosis, meditation, you name it. Thank you again this guy has the empirical proof to back up his claim.

When I am truly honest I am a negative, cynical person, with dashs of positive. That's probably has a lot to do with why I haven't made it yet. The worst part is I know the right thing to do I just can't get myself to do it consistently if at all.

Here's a question I have always struggled with. How do you remain positive and realistic at the same time?: I joke sometimes that I should strive for cautious optimism. If all of us were so positive about every trading course and method we would be bankrupt and have no funds to trade?

BTW Granada is lovely this time of year, spent my post college backpacking trip there, best part of Spain IMO.

I feel I'm on the right track but haven't made it either. I seem to have covered some of the ground you have too. For me at least, a lot has to do with emotional stability i.e. staying calm at all times. Its boring but is the requirement for success. It is the emotions of fear (leading you to get angry and double a losing position for example) or greed (taking profits too soon, or putting on too large a position to start with) that screw you up. That is why I liked that article... he tells you to focus on the process, and that keeps you grounded.

Something that I find helpful is forcing yourself to hunt for opportunities i.e. look ahead. I do this by drawing S/R and trend lines and looking forwards in time. The default is to stare at the market and wait, but being proactive in each market you're interested in means you are looking for the positive and are ready when you see it.

PS Granada is too hot this time of year but I like the warm evenings

Reply With Quote
 
  #9 (permalink)
Elite Member
Denver, Colorado
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader
Favorite Futures: ES, CL, anything that makes $$
 
Posts: 178 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 157 given, 72 received


dog4 View Post
I feel I'm on the right track but haven't made it either. I seem to have covered some of the ground you have too. For me at least, a lot has to do with emotional stability i.e. staying calm at all times. Its boring but is the requirement for success. It is the emotions of fear (leading you to get angry and double a losing position for example) or greed (taking profits too soon, or putting on too large a position to start with) that screw you up. That is why I liked that article... he tells you to focus on the process, and that keeps you grounded.

Something that I find helpful is forcing yourself to hunt for opportunities i.e. look ahead. I do this by drawing S/R and trend lines and looking forwards in time. The default is to stare at the market and wait, but being proactive in each market you're interested in means you are looking for the positive and are ready when you see it.

PS Granada is too hot this time of year but I like the warm evenings

I have found a lot of validation already in my life in regards to focusing on doing the right things and the outcome will be positive. For example, I recently lost a lot of weight and I stopped looking so much at the scale and just focused on managing how many calories I took in and how much I exercised. Before I would obsess and weigh myself everyday or even more than one time in a day LOL and guess what..........I failed. I still struggled with not weighing myself every day, but this time I put the focus on controlling portion size and keeping up on the exercise and I was successful. I did similar in sales. I would do the work not focusing on the outcome and I made president's club twice. I think it's normal to take a moment and focus on the expected positive outcome, but if you focus and manage the process not the outcome you will have the outcome you seek. I am confident it will be similar with trading or anything in life.

Reply With Quote
 
  #10 (permalink)
Elite Member
Denver, Colorado
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader
Favorite Futures: ES, CL, anything that makes $$
 
Posts: 178 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 157 given, 72 received



dog4 View Post
... then read this article

The gold medal coach - Telegraph

awesome

I haven't called him yet but in case anyone is interested his books get good reviews Amazon.com: With Winning in Mind 3rd. Ed. (9781934324226): Lanny Bassham: Books

Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > Winners and Losers

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Linda Bradford Raschke: Reading The Tape

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

January

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Winners and Losers in Obama's Corporate Tax Plan Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 February 22nd, 2012 08:10 PM
Stock Rally Turns Hedge Fund Losers Into Winners Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 February 7th, 2012 12:20 AM
Losers Anonymous TraderSU The Elite Circle 30 February 2nd, 2012 04:13 PM
Winners and losers from the financial crisis kbit News and Current Events 0 November 1st, 2011 03:39 PM
Winners & Losers of 2010 Poll: You Voted, and Results Are In Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 December 8th, 2010 09:20 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:12 PM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-12 in 0.21 seconds with 19 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.145.16.43