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Discipline? Discipline of what?
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Discipline? Discipline of what?

  #21 (permalink)
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ReaM View Post
And as always I am going to post something completely oposite, maybe something nobody would like and think that I am wrong.

What is discipline? Discipline means blindly following the herd, or blindly following some rules, or blindly following someones orders.

In other words, discipline is the unwillingness to ask the validity of certain rules, which exatly what ruins some traders. It does not allow any room for adaptation. New things happen and they don't adapt, because they think they need discipline.

In my opinion, discipline is harmful to trading. Children, soldiers need it, because they often don't know on larger scale what is really going on. Children don't understand why they go to school, they do, because they are following their parents orders. Why do soldiers need discipline? Because they need to go out there and fight no matter what.

So, don't be a soldier and don't go and die on one trade, even if the discipline tells you to.

I think this is kind of a narrow-minded view of what discipline means.

To me, discipline means staying grounded, staying smart, avoiding mistakes, and things that will make you have regret in hindsight. It does not mean you are blindly following any rules. It means you are adhering to your own "rules," even if your "rules" state that you need to adapt and adjust to the market.

To me, it's like being a quarterback. A good quarterback is disciplined. That doesn't mean he blindly throws to his first option. It means he goes through his options, chooses the best one, adjusts, improvises, and makes the statistically intelligent play, and does so consistently.

Discipline to me means that if next week the market does, move for move, exactly what it did today, I will make the exact same entries, non-entries, and exits.

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  #22 (permalink)
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bradyk2 View Post
I think this is kind of a narrow-minded view of what discipline means.

To me, discipline means staying grounded, staying smart, avoiding mistakes, and things that will make you have regret in hindsight. It does not mean you are blindly following any rules. It means you are adhering to your own "rules," even if your "rules" state that you need to adapt and adjust to the market.

To me, it's like being a quarterback. A good quarterback is disciplined. That doesn't mean he blindly throws to his first option. It means he goes through his options, chooses the best one, adjusts, improvises, and makes the statistically intelligent play, and does so consistently.

Discipline to me means that if next week the market does, move for move, exactly what it did today, I will make the exact same entries, non-entries, and exits.

Very good post, but it is not a definition of discipline. More towards self-discipline, but still taken too far. Avoiding mistakes and staying smart has really nothing to do with discipline.

Discipline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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  #23 (permalink)
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ReaM View Post
Very good post, but it is not a definition of discipline. More towards self-discipline, but still taken too far. Avoiding mistakes and staying smart has really nothing to do with discipline.

Discipline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well at this point I think we're debating semantics. The link you provide says "usually understood to be synonymous with self control." Self-control is defined as being able to control one's emotions, which in my opinion is the biggest factor in avoiding mistakes.

So it depends on which definition you take, and what your strengths and weaknesses as a trader are. For me, the key part of trading that I need to master to be successful is staying smart. Staying smart requires me to control my emotion, which requires discipline.

Either way, different angles on the same thing it seems. I certainly understand what you're saying and you seem to understand what I'm saying so I think everyone wins!

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  #24 (permalink)
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Discipline for me equals not being over confident and having patience.

Those have been my biggest money killers.

Psychology > Strategy ≥ Money
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  #25 (permalink)
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Profitable traders and losing traders us discipline to follow whatever it is that's in their trading plan.
Therefore, just because someone has discipline doesn't = profits

My point is that discipline is just one important variable or tool being used by traders. All traders have it but some have it more than others and some need it more than others.

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  #26 (permalink)
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Good distinction


monpere View Post
I agree with points a through g, but let me present the counterpoint to discipline and discretion. I believe they are different things, and are not mutually exclusive. If you have a problem with discipline, then you need rules, just applying discretion will not solve your issues, that will just cause the non-disciplined trader to run amuck.

Discretion is an interesting thing. Many seasoned discretionary traders have developed a certain feel for the markets that has become 2nd nature to them. This feels simple and natural to them, but in most cases took many thousands of screen hours to develop. If a person cannot succinctly explain their trading process to you, then don't try to trade like them. You may follow the concept they are trading, but that discretion, or feel, will have to be your own and acquired over many hours of playing with that trading concept.

I have always had an issue with discipline, and I still do after many years of trading. That is why I manually trade a very mechanical method with strict rules. I have been trading the same method for years. For the first year, I lost money with this method which proved itself in backtesting, because I thought I could do better then the backtesting by applying my discretion to it. Wrong! for me, it turned a winning method into a loser.

My particular discipline issues involved managing trades. What I had to do to enforce discipline was to actually leave the room once I entered a trade and allow my ATM to manage the trade as it had been traded in backtesting. Otherwise I would fiddle with the trade and cause myself a loser, or a less then optimal winner. So, I would initiate the trade, walk out of the room, and not come back to the computer until I heard "target filled' or 'stop filled'

So, I believe, if you are newbie, or if you have discipline issues or both, think very hard about applying discretion, and give yourself plenty of time to develop that discretion, if you have been convinced to go that route.

I applaud your caution here at the end.

Discretionary trading can be very high risk for those that have not developed the proficiency and confidence to deal with un-defined decision-points.

Trading is a decision-making process where information is taken in, evaluated according to certain criteria and/or methodology, and then actions is taken based on the decision made and the available choices. It involves a series of decision points and at each point, if how to make that decision isn't clear or the skill developed, that open decision point then becomes an invitation for one's emotions to come in and make it for you.

If a trader has not yet developed the decision-making skills and established the confidence in their ability to make the right decisions, then in my experience and in helping other traders, the question of whether or not to be a discretionary trader is simple. Don't. Use a mechanical system until you have had sufficient success to have the confidence in your decision making ability.

The question is more really of 'when' rather than 'if' you should pursue discretionary trading. Until established, stay mechanical. Only after proper 'seasoning' should one consider discretionary.

TraderBrian

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  #27 (permalink)
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TraderBrian View Post

The question is more really of 'when' rather than 'if' you should pursue discretionary trading. Until established, stay mechanical. Only after proper 'seasoning' should one consider discretionary.

TraderBrian

That makes a lot of sense.

I think what throws a lot of new traders for a loop is impatience. It's very easy to say that a newbie should trade a mechanical ruleset - but you should say at the same time that it may take a long time to develop one. In my case I've been testing just about every idea I can find on the forum, looking for something I can trade for income. It's easy to see how these ideas could work, but it's hard to pin down the conditions so well that you get from a vague idea that could work to a well-defined and proven method.

To hedge my bets I'm also trying to get as much screen time as possible. I have no idea what's going to click first: developing a ruleset or developing the ability to trade off feel.

I do know that I won't risk a dollar until one of those clicks, because I value my peace of mind too highly to do otherwise - but from cruising these forums I can see that that's a little abnormal.

Discipline!

best,
RK

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  #28 (permalink)
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MY HUMBLE OPINION

In my humble opinion we appeared to have forgotten with the very essence,base and pillars of trading which are the foundation of these argument (setup and discipline).
the pillars of trading in my understanding are three:

1. method
2. psychology
3. money MGT.

They are like a stool with a three leg, if you remove one the other two can not make it stand.

when you say setup, you are talking about method and when you say discipline you are talking about psychology.However,the issue of saying which one is the first or the best to be considered does not arise because each one of them is meaningless without the other.

DISCIPLINE:
Discipline in my own understanding is all about following the rules without changing or tweaking them no matter how hard and no matter how anxious you feel to do so, it is also all about knowing yourself and don't act stupidly or uncontrollably.

SETUP:
Is any bar or combination of bars that will convince you that taking a trade is worthwhile at a particular time and based upon some given principles.

IS SETUP FIRST ,OR DISCIPLINE ?;

Everything in life have an order and series( Small to Big, Baby to Adult etc) setup and discipline too have such orders.

Setup should come first then discipline ,because without setup (method) on what are you going to apply the discipline and perhaps money management ?.


Please, i would like somebody to answer this question before i proceed.;

IF WE DON'T HAVE SETUP (METHODOLOGY) ON WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO APPLY DISCIPLINE (PSYCHOLOGY) OR EVEN MONEY MANAGEMENT?

Thank you.

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  #29 (permalink)
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Setup first, discipline second

The first step is to develop a system. It needs to be developed in a way where it's expected to be profitable in it's design.

Live forward testing, as well as gathering data, identifies any practical issues the system may have and increases your skills trading it. Any testing phase must be done with discipline to achieve a consistent sample of data.

The market sometimes suits a system and sometimes doesn't. Discipline is required to keep consistently trading the system. You shouldn't make changes based on a few trades. I like to have a sample of about 50 trades so I can make some meaningful assumptions from.

And remember live forward "testing" is just that - "testing". It should be done with a test appropriate trade size.

Cheers Rach

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  #30 (permalink)
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rk142 View Post
...well-defined and proven method.

...I have no idea what's going to click first: developing a ruleset or developing the ability to trade off feel.

As far as finding a well-defined and proven method then i am afraid you won't find such a beast easily on any forum. On futures.io (formerly BMT) i have only seen two so far which passes the test in my opinion. CJbooth and Perry's methods but again there is no guarantee one will suit you.

Regarding the second point, i think you can only develop your ability to trade off feel as you say if you have a framework to which you can refer to in order to interpret price action within this context. You need to form or aquire some heuristic rules before you can develop this feel.

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