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Confessions - Stories of defeat and lessons learned
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Confessions - Stories of defeat and lessons learned

  #21 (permalink)
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Abde,
My "Teacher" intoduced me to TF(Russell 2000 e mini). Since then, I have not been able to detach myself from the instrument. I have traded 5 mins, 10 mins, 100T, 233T, 400T, 610T, 300V, 500V, 4Renko, 6Renko, 4 Better Renko, 6 Better Renko, 4/6 Renkohybrid, 6 Range, 8 Range, etc. The fact is that I have not been able to stick around enough to find out if any time frame would have produced an adge. Because of my impatience, I will describe myself as a scalper. I cannot just hang on to a winning trade. Moreover, the market seems to be hunting for my stop loss. As soon as I put on a trade, at that very moment, TF would spike and take the stop out and then proceed in the original direction.

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  #22 (permalink)
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ashake2003 View Post
Abde,
My "Teacher" intoduced me to TF(Russell 2000 e mini). Since then, I have not been able to detach myself from the instrument. I have traded 5 mins, 10 mins, 100T, 233T, 400T, 610T, 300V, 500V, 4Renko, 6Renko, 4 Better Renko, 6 Better Renko, 4/6 Renkohybrid, 6 Range, 8 Range, etc. The fact is that I have not been able to stick around enough to find out if any time frame would have produced an adge. Because of my impatience, I will describe myself as a scalper. I cannot just hang on to a winning trade. Moreover, the market seems to be hunting for my stop loss. As soon as I put on a trade, at that very moment, TF would spike and take the stop out and then proceed in the original direction.

A couple of things...first if your stop gets hunted, its way to close. The stops do get hunted but not at the expense of destroying a structure. If that happens, something else is at work thats higher than the stop placement. Good stop placement should keep you in the trade but limit your catastrophic losses. This means you trade the size you are comfortable with using a larger stop....and no more.

Secondly, TF is a decent instrument, all of those time frames are valid and have an edge. Its not the time frame. Its you. If you are impatient, scalp a one min chart with one min exits. Dont trade a small time frame hoping for big daily swings. You'll drive yourself mad. And don't scalp a one hour chart, thats a waste of time.

If you are to make it as a trader, you gotta develop the balls to hold a trade. I know, I've gone on the same journey as you...from seconds holding a trade to one I held the other day for 45 minutes....its a process but you must do it.

Good luck.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #23 (permalink)
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Gary, great great story.....a lot of what you wrote encompasses a lot of my story - minus the independently wealthy part and my losses/blown out accounts were of much greater magnitude (both absolute and as a percentage of my entire "net worth").

I hope to write out my story like you did (but in the meantime, I can read yours to reflect on mine).

Thanks again!

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  #24 (permalink)
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no hard stops!

not sure why people use hard stops, really. i mean, i understand the concept. take away the emotion, make the computer bounce you out. however, i honestly think it's best to have no hard stops. 1) you dont' get paranoid "they" are running your stop, lol. 2) you have to really *feel* the price action. 3)they subtly shift agency away from you, to the computer. what do people say? "i got stopped out". call me oldfashioned, but i think these subtle language things can shape thinking in significant ways.

without a stop, you better be watching that pulsing bar. as soon as my order fills, i set up a sell order and constantly update the limit price to the bid which i then adjust if i have time but most of the time i wait till the exact last moment, then just get out at the bid. i sit there watching my positions with the mouse hovering just a tiny bit away so i can pounce on the "transmit" button. hard stops are evil!

The Incredibles:No Capes! - YouTube

(i have my share of problems with trading, just not stops...)

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  #25 (permalink)
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Confessions - Stories of defeat and lessons learned

Gary D,
Thanks for the words of wisdom and the path you asked me to follow. I will diligently follow your suggestions and let you know how it plays out. Whao! Who could have guessed that emotions, especially the negative ones, can cause so much damage to a man's psyche. Even with a demo a/c, I am still unable to hold on a trade to it's predetermined target.

Once again, thank you for given me the opportunity to respond to your thread and your willingness to assist. May the god of trade continue to favor you.

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  #26 (permalink)
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TrendTraderBH View Post
Gary, great great story.....a lot of what you wrote encompasses a lot of my story - minus the independently wealthy part and my losses/blown out accounts were of much greater magnitude (both absolute and as a percentage of my entire "net worth").

I hope to write out my story like you did (but in the meantime, I can read yours to reflect on mine).

Thanks again!


There's more to the story. Just not here. You may have better company than you realize.

By % of prior net worth, my trading losses are miniscule, but they may actually have more impact on me than my real estate losses.

In my developments, I really was not in control. I had no choice in many respects. The fall was unstoppable, and there are no stop losses. I would get properties under contract over and over, and then they fell through over and over, and the next time under contract they were down another 10%...

But the trading losses, that was all me. I chose to lose that money. I pulled the trigger. I could have stopped but didn't.

Now that I can pursue either direction again, I am leaning towards trading. I'm sure I will have real estate wins in the future, I knew it too well to let that go to waste. But trading has me, and I almost feel lucky to have gone through everything I did.

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  #27 (permalink)
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Maisie View Post
not sure why people use hard stops, really.


What if your internet goes out? Or a power outage in your neighborhood? Or your computer crashes? Or some unforseen major event cause a major directional move out of nowhere?

My hard stops almost never get touched. I get what you are saying. But I would never enter a trade without one. If you own a home, you probably have insurance on it. That does not mean you just let it burn...


Last edited by GaryD; March 28th, 2012 at 06:52 PM. Reason: ocd
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Maisie View Post
not sure why people use hard stops

A hard stop is more or less a necessity for most traders. Trading without a hard stop usually means you have no pre-defined exit, and that isn't a good thing. Combine that with the utter lack of discipline most traders have, and they'll hold a losing position forever.

The important thing is to set a stop at the point where if price trades to that level, you agree the trade decision/direction was wrong. Far too often, I see traders using tiny stops, then re-enter moments later in the same direction. Why? It's because the trade is still valid in their eyes, the stop was simply too close because they are afraid to risk more money.

Answer is to risk the same amount of money, but move the stop further away so that stop is only triggered once the trade setup is invalid. Trade fewer contracts, or trade micro CME FX or spot forex, micro spot forex, or equities and ETFs with fewer shares, etc, in order to accomplish this goal.

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  #29 (permalink)
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GaryD View Post
What if your internet goes out? Or a power outage in your neighborhood? Or your computer crashes? Or some unforseen major event cause a major directional move out of nowhere?

My hard stops almost never get touched. I get what you are saying. But I would never enter a trade without one. If you own a home, you probably have insuracne on it. That does not mean you just let it burn...

Exactly! I have backups if my internet goes out, or my computer crashes, or even if there's a power outage, but there is nothing we can do about flash crashes. Seems like "mini flash crashes" happen quite frequently! Could one could argue that if you didn't have a stop resting in the market, you wouldn't get taken out by the crash, and could wait for the crash correction to exit? Perhaps, but I'd think your broker would automatically liquidate your positions when your account dropped below maintenance margin levels, wouldn't they?

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ashake2003 View Post
Gary D,
Thanks for the words of wisdom and the path you asked me to follow. I will diligently follow your suggestions and let you know how it plays out. Whao! Who could have guessed that emotions, especially the negative ones, can cause so much damage to a man's psyche. Even with a demo a/c, I am still unable to hold on a trade to it's predetermined target.

Once again, thank you for given me the opportunity to respond to your thread and your willingness to assist. May the god of trade continue to favor you.


I suggest that emotions are everything. To make effort we must want. As a simple example, you could be angry, yet that could manifest into being productive, or, being angry could make one non-productive. But somewhere in there are emotions shaping our every move.

If I could say something to myself, when I was going through a similar time in life, use trading (simulated) as a tool, not to make real money, but to learn acceptance.

Let it hit your stop. It's ok. Let it run to you target, or remove the target and let it breathe.

We try to structure the world in a manner where we have control. In many places we can, but not all. You cannot control the markets, you can barely forecast the markets, but you can control where you enter or exit a trade. Why get out at 1 tick? Choose something better.

And if it does not come, accept it. And try again.


Last edited by GaryD; March 28th, 2012 at 06:51 PM. Reason: simulated
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