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The market is not out to get you
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The market is not out to get you

  #11 (permalink)
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liquidcci View Post
Surly have high degree of respect for your opinion but on this we will have to disagree. Even if the big fish know a small trader is there they do not really care. I am not saying the algos never target spots where alot of ordes sit etc. But I think most of the time that is not the reason an order gets stopped. There are just so many players in the market doing so many different things it is hard to draw a direct correlation to I am out to get you you are out to get me. At the end of the day there are winners and losers. But my winners cannot be directly be correlated to any one particular persons loss nor my losers directly correlated to any particular persons winners. So in that since it is a cloud but within that cloud there are trends. We can both be opposite side of a trade and both win or both lose because we are both doing different things and most likely have different exits.

Likewise, I read and learn a lot from your posts liquidcci - I think I both agree and disagree. In a direct, cause/effect-type of analysis, the market is not "out to get you". However, I think it is wrong for traders to consider themselves as "playing a different game" - it is wrong to trade 1 car as if things would be different if you were trading 200 cars (accepting the limits of liquidity). This is a great error that I have made and that I would caution others not to make. If a trader takes $200 out of the market trading 1 car in the ES, their thinking, strategy, emotions, etc need be no different than another trader who places the same trades and takes $50,000 out of the market. It is when one thinks there is something different that one begins to trivialize the difficulty of consistently making money in the markets.

Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty. - Frank Herbert
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  #12 (permalink)
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
You dang tootin' they do... I didn't realize how good they were at it until they started gunning my stops while I was in SIM ... so I started paper trading ... with real paper and a pencil... they STILL gunned my stops... Greedy Bastards.....

TMFT, if for some reason you keep getting your stops hit, you can make a living writing biting prose for all the trade rags out there.......or hit the stage at the traders expo and give all the algo people something to laugh about!!!! I for one would pay top dollar to see you perform live!

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #13 (permalink)
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liquidcci View Post
How did they gun for your stops in SIM? You don't even have a trade in real market so algos can not see you. Even if you were live would be to small for them to see or even care.

Treating market like it out to get you or refuses to cooperate with you is the wrong approach.

Not saying algos never run stops at certain inflection points at different times. But if get stopped that is most likely not what happened.

@liquidcci

sat·ire/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
Noun:
The use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule in exposing, denouncing, or deriding human folly, etc.

hu·mor/ˈhyü-mər/
n.
1. The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation.
2. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor.
3. The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd.


The Point .... You missed it....

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I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #14 (permalink)
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
@liquidcci

sat·ire/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
Noun:
The use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule in exposing, denouncing, or deriding human folly, etc.

hu·mor/ˈhyü-mər/
n.
1. The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation.
2. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor.
3. The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd.


The Point .... You missed it....

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lol Thatman sorry I am a little slow. Your original post is great now that I see the satire.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."

Last edited by liquidcci; March 8th, 2012 at 03:42 PM.
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  #15 (permalink)
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Personally I think there is a camera behind me somewhere and also a mike. The mike catches the order filled thingy on NT if the video is blocked by my thick head.

Now let me tell you about the voices in my head...you know what one was saying?


BTw I am messing also.

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  #16 (permalink)
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sunil patel View Post
Personally I think there is a camera behind me somewhere and also a mike. The mike catches the order filled thingy on NT if the video is blocked by my thick head.

Now let me tell you about the voices in my head...you know what one was saying?


BTw I am messing also.

(Warning...Satire Ahead...)

I didn't trade today... the voices in my head said to stay in the bunker and clean the guns....

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #17 (permalink)
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crack me up Tex....

bunker and guns! ROFL

I am staying away from that one.


BTW in all seriousness(sp) they can only run our stops so much,just make sure you have enough ammo in the account..payback is the way to go.


Last edited by Sunil P; March 8th, 2012 at 03:26 PM.
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  #18 (permalink)
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The institutions may not care about 1 single retail trader trading from his mom's basement in his underwear, trading 1 lots.

But when thousands of retail traders all behave similarly, that adds up to thousands of contracts sitting at similar levels --- and absolutely the big guys know that, and they play that too their favor.

Take away: Don't place stops at obvious levels.

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  #19 (permalink)
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I am more worried about the mental institutions....oh the voices are driving me nuts!

You guys in Txs call it.....mucho loco?

swing high/low are my stop areas...O well,seems to be safe for the most part on the 10 ranger.


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I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
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They talk of days for which they sit and wait and all will be revealed


Last edited by Sunil P; March 8th, 2012 at 08:53 PM.
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liquidcci View Post
Wrong perception. Big guys don't even know though you are there if small. If they did they would not even care. Premise it is a zero sum game on an individual trade is false. I could go long and you could go short against my trade and we both make money or both lose. The market is zero sum in sense there are winners and losers but on a trade by trade basis it is not zero sum. If I did lose and you won you took nothing from me because we both get out of trade at different times based on stops and targets. We were not competing with each other just happened to match entries on opposite sides.

Thinking it is out to get you or will cooperate with you is wrong approach as it personalizes the market which will bring emotion in. Emotion and trading bad mix.

Futures & options are both zero-sum games. Who do you think you are buying from or selling a contract to?

A futures contract does not exist until a buyer and a seller agree on a price, thus they are each others opposites. You have the clearing firm stepping in as a counterpart for security purposes, but the loss/gains (excluding extreme cases) are transferred from your account to his/hers and vice versa.

The other trader might be hedged/spread trading, but on that particular trade he must lose money for you to win.

Many different algorithms exist, and many are just using latency to capture the spread. But there also more disruptive algorithms specifically trying to pull in suckers and run stops. Some of my trading is specifically modeled for capturing moves when algorithms flock (unless I am trading against the Flash himself).

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