Hard Stop Placement – The Great Contradiction? - Psychology and Money Management | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Hard Stop Placement – The Great Contradiction?
Updated: Views / Replies:3,965 / 45
Created: by clclcl Attachments:4

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors – all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you don’t need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 4  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Hard Stop Placement – The Great Contradiction?

  #31 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received


bourgeois pig View Post
I am a rookie and most of the lessons that I have learned the hard way are related to stops.
Some of the lessons learned were the result of my bravado (ignorance).
Some were actually the result of following my rules. (discipline)
Now I am learning to manage fear and desire (psychology)

FIrst live trade ever. 9:30 a.m. opening bell. market moves up. I click BUY (market). 1 contract. ES. Naked. No stops. ...Or so I thought....
In mere seconds I see profits rise to $62.50 then back to $50. I exit. $38.50 profit minus brokers fee.
"WOW! I am going to be good at this" My adrenailine is pupming. Must have cigarrette.
GO outside. Smoke. Come back..."Whats this?? I am in a trade!?!? (didn't realize my platform had preset stops and the stop became a working order after i sold out of my long)
Luckily I am now up $100. Good ,but..."I'm not supposed to be in this trade!" Cancel. EXit. Get me out!
"WOW, I can do this."5 minutes of trading and I am up $100 dollars!
Leave my proverbial desk to go run errands. Return home. 2pm. Yellen speaks. Market rises. Once again, I break my initial rules. CLick BUY. (Market). Now up $185. "Yay!! I am awesome. I am going to quit my job. I should turn off my machine for the day!!(Take what the market gave me)" NOPE. I jumped back in. No set stops. Market reverses with a fury. I am using mental stops. I have a small account. THe pain is too much. I exit down $185 for the day. All this happens in a couple of minutes. "WTF!!"
Lesson for small account trader.....Thats me. Use stops you big dummy. The market has the potential to move faster than you can make descisions!

Lesson 2. Today I will recover my losses. Mmmm HMMMM...
Non farm payroll. 8:30am EST. Market rises sharply. CLick BUY Order is filled a second later but 8 points above intended entry. watch profits flash to $125 and then down to -$200. All of this in seconds. Lesson learned. Don't place market orders immediatley after a news release and USE STOPS! Especaillly with a small account!! Note: While sitting there scratching my head wondering WTF I watched the market move back in to what would have been profitable territory had i stayed in the trade. Salt on the wound.

Now these 2 days were complete rookie mistakes. But the thing is , I knew not to violate these rules. I read them. I took notes on them. THey were in my lists of rules. I had read a lot about managing risk. THe 2% rule. The 5% rule, always use STOPS. Guess all those lessons didn't register. Needed a wallop against my head to realize them.

I began to set my stops at 2%.
Result: Getting stopped out of trades that would have been good trades except for my shallow STOP LOSS.
Lesson Learned: If using shallow stops. Precise entry is crucial. Also in a fast moving market, like those after news releases, a STOP LIMIT can get jumped and a STOP MARKET can result in massive sllipage exceeding ones determined risk.

SO while I have learned lessons about using stops, and the need for precsicion while trading a small account, my new endeavor is getting a hold of my emotions and not being afraid to get back in after being stopped out when my initial idea turns out to be correct. But that is for another thread....

While I submit this for the experienced to laugh and reminence at (but I don't mind because in retro spect I think its funny also! LESSON: Don't be attached to my convictions when trading, accept that sometimes I will be wrong. My preset stop losses will determine this so i don't have to. And be able to laugh at my own follies) I also submit it for the rookies to learn from. Risk management is vital and STOPS are a huge part of RISk management.

Luckily I have not blown up my account...YET!I have been sitting on the sidelines and watching more than not..... I take the occasional scalp. I occasionally win and I occasionally lose. But most importantly I take trades at times when the risk of stop jumping and slippage is low and I always use preset stops. I intend to start a jounal on this forum whence I began to actively trade again so that I can be critiqued, and when warranted, lambasted, and get the occasional pat on the cyber back from the many seasoned and highly intelligent entities on this forum. ( Seriously, SOmetimes I have no idea what they are talking about LOL. Just goes right over my head) But seriously, THis forum is awesome. Reading the members journals and experiences have been invaluable to my learning! Thanks BM's!!

Last rule: THE MARKET WILL ALWAYS BE THERE. IF you don't believe that, your trading account will not.

Wow this is seasoned with a lot of great lessons. Most traders don't even get this far in their first year lol. If you can take all these lessons to heart and commit it to memory you are well above the pack. The most important thing for a new trader to learn is stops. If one can properly identify where to put their stops the winners will take care of themselves. Good luck my holy delicious pork friend! I hope you love bbq because I love your name.

Reply With Quote
 
  #32 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received

How often do your limit stops get jumped for those who use them? I was wondering if it's more advantageous to use these types of stops while actively at the computer and manually exit out of the position if it gets jumped to avoid slippage. I'd have to compare the amount of slippage to the amount of stop jumps to see which is better.

Thanks in advance to whoever can answer me.

Reply With Quote
 
  #33 (permalink)
Elite Member
asheville north carolina USA
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: ATC trader (OEC white label)
Broker/Data: ATC
Favorite Futures: futures
 
bourgeois pig's Avatar
 
Posts: 312 since Sep 2014
Thanks: 765 given, 271 received



Itchymoku View Post
How often do your limit stops get jumped for those who use them? I was wondering if it's more advantageous to use these types of stops while actively at the computer and manually exit out of the position if it gets jumped to avoid slippage. I'd have to compare the amount of slippage to the amount of stop jumps to see which is better.

Thanks in advance to whoever can answer me.

I don't use stop limits for fear of getting jumped. While i like your idea about manually exiting in the event of a jump I am also hesitant as If the market is moving with enough force to jump my stop then by the time my manual exit was hit I may have already exceeded my risk parameter in excess.

After all that i have read about stop jumps i have been using market stops and as a further note I usally get a tick slippage and sometimes 2. That is with very limited experience as I have been doing more watching and learning as of late. Which is probably why I haven't blown out my account.

I probably should demo more but I have found that my mindset while simulating is so much different than real time.
And throw in the fact that fills and stops are unrealistic in demo render me just watching real time and taking an occaisional shot with a tight stop.

I would be interested to the answer to your question also from someone who has experience with limit stops.
Do you use stops at all? I would have thought that you had experience with limit stops.
MMMMmmmmm BBQ!

Reply With Quote
 
  #34 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received


bourgeois pig View Post
I don't use stop limits for fear of getting jumped. While i like your idea about manually exiting in the event of a jump I am also hesitant as If the market is moving with enough force to jump my stop then by the time my manual exit was hit I may have already exceeded my risk parameter in excess.

After all that i have read about stop jumps i have been using market stops and as a further note I usally get a tick slippage and sometimes 2. That is with very limited experience as I have been doing more watching and learning as of late. Which is probably why I haven't blown out my account.

I probably should demo more but I have found that my mindset while simulating is so much different than real time.
And throw in the fact that fills and stops are unrealistic in demo render me just watching real time and taking an occaisional shot with a tight stop.

I would be interested to the answer to your question also from someone who has experience with limit stops.
Do you use stops at all? I would have thought that you had experience with limit stops.
MMMMmmmmm BBQ!

I've used both in the past but never had it jumped. I'm afraid of a jump as well so I've pretty much always use market aside from experimenting a few times and scale outs. I think a good idea would be to have a limit stop that can identify if price is above or below the order to trigger a program to enter a market stop immediate there after in the event of a jump . This is such a great idea I'm sure someone else has though of it so I won't take credit for it.

What's your favorite BBQ? Do you make your own? We have a BBQ cult on bmt if you haven't noticed lol.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


I like Memphis dry rub ribbys

Reply With Quote
 
  #35 (permalink)
Elite Member
asheville north carolina USA
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: ATC trader (OEC white label)
Broker/Data: ATC
Favorite Futures: futures
 
bourgeois pig's Avatar
 
Posts: 312 since Sep 2014
Thanks: 765 given, 271 received


Itchymoku View Post
Wow this is seasoned with a lot of great lessons. Most traders don't even get this far in their first year lol. If you can take all these lessons to heart and commit it to memory you are well above the pack. The most important thing for a new trader to learn is stops. If one can properly identify where to put their stops the winners will take care of themselves. Good luck my holy delicious pork friend! I hope you love bbq because I love your name.

I thought I had learned a lot....enough to be successful anyway. I had simulated for a year amd read many books. The first 3 days of trading I broke every rule in my notes and lost 12% of my account. That was my first lesson in risk managment! Yikes! Then I found this thread and realized that there was so much more to trading than I originally thought. The main thing being psychology. I always kind of skimmed through the Psycology chapters thinking "I got this"
Yeah right.

Another thing that I always read was about journaling which I never put much thought in to. But now i realize the importance of it after browsing the jounals on this forum. When i do set sail again I plan to journal my journey here.

Reply With Quote
 
  #36 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received


bourgeois pig View Post
I thought I had learned a lot....enough to be successful anyway. I had simulated for a year amd read many books. The first 3 days of trading I broke every rule in my notes and lost 12% of my account. That was my first lesson in risk managment! Yikes! Then I found this thread and realized that there was so much more to trading than I originally thought. The main thing being psychology. I always kind of skimmed through the Psycology chapters thinking "I got this"
Yeah right.

Another thing that I always read was about journaling which I never put much thought in to. But now i realize the importance of it after browsing the jounals on this forum. When i do set sail again I plan to journal my journey here.

Journalling is a must. 12% is nothing, I've blown an entire account on the first day. I've made 20% before in a couple weeks grinding away with risking 1% per trade and I consider myself an average trader so don't be worried about it just keep moving forward. You're very smart and I'm sure you can make it back shortly if you respect the rules of the game and you plug away looking for opportunities where they present themselves.


Last edited by Itchymoku; November 13th, 2014 at 07:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Itchymoku for this post:
 
  #37 (permalink)
Elite Member
asheville north carolina USA
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: ATC trader (OEC white label)
Broker/Data: ATC
Favorite Futures: futures
 
bourgeois pig's Avatar
 
Posts: 312 since Sep 2014
Thanks: 765 given, 271 received


Itchymoku View Post
I've used both in the past but never had it jumped. I'm afraid of a jump as well so I've pretty much always use market aside from experimenting a few times and scale outs. I think a good idea would be to have a limit stop that can identify if price is above or below the order to trigger a program to enter a market stop immediate there after in the event of a jump . This is such a great idea I'm sure someone else has though of it so I won't take credit for it.

What's your favorite BBQ? Do you make your own? We have a BBQ cult on bmt if you haven't noticed lol.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


I like Memphis dry rub ribbys

That is a good idea.
As far as BBQ goes I like all BBQ as long as it was prepared with love. I grew up in eastern NC and that region is famous for its particular brand of pig. Medium cherry smoke with a vinegar based sauce. I work in fine dining so I get to eat a lot of good Fusion BBQ. I make a nice thai bbq myself. I pressure cook a boston butt with red curry paste , kifir, galangal, basil, and lemongrass and then roll that up in burrito shells with a red onion, cucumber, thai chili, and cilantro relish....oh yeah and unsalted white rice. Its always a hit at the potlucks!

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to bourgeois pig for this post:
 
  #38 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received


bourgeois pig View Post
That is a good idea.
As far as BBQ goes I like all BBQ as long as it was prepared with love. I grew up in eastern NC and that region is famous for its particular brand of pig. Medium cherry smoke with a vinegar based sauce. I work in fine dining so I get to eat a lot of good Fusion BBQ. I make a nice thai bbq myself. I pressure cook a boston butt with red curry paste , kifir, galangal, basil, and lemongrass and then roll that up in burrito shells with a red onion, cucumber, thai chili, and cilantro relish....oh yeah and unsalted white rice. Its always a hit at the potlucks!

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


Oh mother of god this is more than I can ask for in a post! Mouth is watering. you're awesome! There is nothing more than I love hijacking a thread with BBQ. This is why I love futures.io (formerly BMT) and BM on a cruise so he can't stop this madness from ensuing. LOLOL

Reply With Quote
 
  #39 (permalink)
Elite Member
asheville north carolina USA
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: ATC trader (OEC white label)
Broker/Data: ATC
Favorite Futures: futures
 
bourgeois pig's Avatar
 
Posts: 312 since Sep 2014
Thanks: 765 given, 271 received

DUDE, don't get me in trouble! I just got here.
LoL

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to bourgeois pig for this post:
 
  #40 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received



bourgeois pig View Post
DUDE, don't get me in trouble! I just got here.
LoL

It's okay for a few posts as long as it doesn't go overboard. LOL

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


Just like stop placement

Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > Hard Stop Placement – The Great Contradiction?

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Elite only

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

Jan 18

RandBots: TBA

Jan 23

GFF Brokers & CME Group: Futures & Bitcoin

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
order placement question stephenszpak NinjaTrader 2 January 23rd, 2012 01:37 AM
Recession has hit everybody really hard kbit Jokes 0 July 27th, 2011 09:45 PM
HArd right edge Game incometrade Off-Topic 1 August 13th, 2010 10:20 PM
Indicator for Range Proyections for target placement gtichauer NinjaTrader Programming 3 February 15th, 2010 08:11 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:37 PM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-18 in 0.17 seconds with 21 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.221.93.187