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Let me tell you why I SUCK as a discretionary trader ...


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Let me tell you why I SUCK as a discretionary trader ...

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  #1 (permalink)
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With all apologies to Chris Farley:

"Let me tell you why I suck as a discretionary trader ...

... Let's say that I put on a trade and let's say it begins to show the smallest hint of a profit ...

... well, then, I get all excited ... I'm like 'JoJo The Idiot Circus Boy' with a pretty new pet ...

... the pet is my profitable trade ....

... (in JoJo's voice) 'oh my pretty little pet, I love you ...'

... so I stroke it, and I pet it, and I massage it ...

... and as soon as the market ticks against me by just a little bit, it's like, 'I love my little naughty pet ... you're naughty!

... and then I take my naughty pet and I go .... KZRRYSKX!!! ... and KRRZZZYXKXK!!!

... ooohhh ... I killed it! I killed it! I exited my profitable trade too early!

... and that's when I blow it ..."

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as a discretionary trader you do not have exits and stops in mind at the time of entry? Like being in a race where you do not know where the finish line is. Dont hate those at objective little losers man. Learn to love those as much as your little profit pet. I look at the risk reward at the time of entry. The stop and the targets (usually three) are in mind prior to the entry. You probably know all that and just had a lapse in application anyway.

I miss Farley...saw him out two nights before his death...really a sad thing. DB

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addiction is nasty....guy/gal who finds a cure will get 10 nobel prizes.

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I always found it hard to hold onto the profit point - in contrast, though, the stops worked out fine. With the systematic approach I use now, I have to sit on my hands and let the trade work as prescribed. For me, it's made all the difference in the world, as I've let trades that I'm "sure" wouldn't work actually do their thing and make money!

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furytrader View Post
I always found it hard to hold onto the profit point - in contrast, though, the stops worked out fine. With the systematic approach I use now, I have to sit on my hands and let the trade work as prescribed. For me, it's made all the difference in the world, as I've let trades that I'm "sure" wouldn't work actually do their thing and make money!

+1 .....Your right, just have to let one run and then another and so on until you get it in your head that it works.
Once you gain some confidence your on the way.

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Don't know what to say....don't know what your winning percentage is. But, if you are like most other traders and have a 50% win/loss rate...make sure your auto target is > 2X your stop loss on each trade to account for commissions and slippage.

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furytrader View Post
With all apologies to Chris Farley:

"Let me tell you why I suck as a discretionary trader ...

... Let's say that I put on a trade and let's say it begins to show the smallest hint of a profit ...

... well, then, I get all excited ... I'm like 'JoJo The Idiot Circus Boy' with a pretty new pet ...

... the pet is my profitable trade ....

... (in JoJo's voice) 'oh my pretty little pet, I love you ...'

... so I stroke it, and I pet it, and I massage it ...

... and as soon as the market ticks against me by just a little bit, it's like, 'I love my little naughty pet ... you're naughty!

... and then I take my naughty pet and I go .... KZRRYSKX!!! ... and KRRZZZYXKXK!!!

... ooohhh ... I killed it! I killed it! I exited my profitable trade too early!

... and that's when I blow it ..."

For starters, take trading seriously; it's not a joke.

Self- deprecation is a defense mechanism; just another form of rationalization.

Don't expect to achieve mastery, nevertheless, competence - overnight.

It takes years of deliberate practice, and an integrated approach, i.e., mastery of: market knowledge, mental ability (emotional control), methodology, and money management...

and the majority still fail to achieve profitability

If you want to be one of the few that can actually support themselves from their trading, you first have to adopt the correct attitude, then the correct work ethic, otherwise you are embarking on a very expensive fool's errand

Then you have to be lucky enough not to be led astray by all the bullshit that is tangentially associated with learning the 4Ms - concentrating on what actually works (for you).

Like they say - trading is simple; it's just not easy.

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"Let me tell you why I suck as a discretionary trader ...

I suck as a discretionary trader as well, I couldn't trade my way out of a paper bag if I had to.

What saved me is 100% mechanical trading, I run it automated via tradestation.

sadly if one has unresolved internal issues, we will find a way to screw up systemetic trading as well.

Al Brooks (of Brooks price action) has a great line that playing golf and earning a living from playing golf are two different things. That comment really lit a light bulb for me. Even at the professional level, there are hundreds of 'professional' golf players. but unlike Tiger Woods, they don't fly in their own private jets and stay at fancy hotels. Most of these players drive from one tournament to the next and check-in in a cheap motel upon arrival. Sadly most of them will fade away and become high school golf coaches or pro's at a country club. trigertrader comments are great, trading is a hard game, most of us, despite our best efforts will not make it....

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tigertrader View Post

If you want to be one of the few that can actually support themselves from their trading, you first have to adopt the correct attitude

Tigertrader, what do you suggest is the correct attitude? I was in a class today with a 20 year floor trader turned coach who basically said the same thing. He had some ideas of course but I am interested in hearing yours.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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TigerTrader, I do take trading seriously but I also know that I can't let the potential emotional pitfalls of trading get the best of me. Hence, the use of humor, and the decision not to pursue the complete and all-encompassing goal of trading perfection - the only perfection in trading that you can achieve, in my opinion, is perfection of process - not perfection of results. If you focus on attaining the perfection of results, you're already dead but just don't know it.

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Tigertrader, what do you suggest is the correct attitude? I was in a class today with a 20 year floor trader turned coach who basically said the same thing. He had some ideas of course but I am interested in hearing yours.


To a large degree, it's one of those things that everyone needs to figure out for themselves, not only in reference to trading, but in life. If you want to have a good relationship/marriage, you have to have take the correct approach and have the right attitude. This also holds true, if you want to be a good parent, or any other endeavor that involves a level of performance, and has an important effect on your life. It all begins with having confidence in yourself and a belief that you will not fail. You must also, be willing to do whatever it takes to be successful. This requires focus, drive, and determination, but also requires that one is not selfish, does not make excuses, and is honest with themselves.






.

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This reminds me of a quote by the French impressionist painter Edgard Degas:

"Self-doubt kills ability"

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tigertrader View Post
To a large degree, it's one of those things that everyone needs to figure out for themselves, not only in reference to trading, but in life.

For me, I had to stop talking bad about my trading. No more "I'm going long, so if you want to make money, go short!" type of an attitude.

It really all starts in the morning before you place your first trade. You should have confidence and the positive attitude to conquer the day. You can call it the "mind's eye" or whatever, but picture yourself trading for the day, calm, some winning trades, some losing trades, but confident that in the end it will all work out.

Approach each trade the same way. No single trade should be so "powerful" that it upsets you or your balance. Stops are part of the business. If taking one messes with your head too much, it means you are trading too big, or that you have no confidence in your plan.

I also agree with what Tiger hinted at --- you need to get things outside of your trading in place, too. In your general life, outside trading I mean. You can't expect to be calm and well prepared to trade if your personal household is crazy 5 minutes before you place a trade, or worse, during a trade.

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furytrader View Post
This reminds me of a quote by the French impressionist painter Edgard Degas:

"Self-doubt kills ability"

Yes, self-sabotage is a common thing in trading. If you very much believe you will fail, then you will find a way.

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Yes, self-sabotage is a common thing in trading. If you very much believe you will fail, then you will find a way.

Mike

My suggestion is to read the book The New Psycho Cybernetics. That book is not like any of the other "The Secret" or "How to get [insert key word]" or any of those other cheesy books that look at the outside but it helps you understand the inner algorithm that you have chosen to adapt as your governing principles of not only of your trading but your life. I start with one simple example.

Next time you take a bad trade instead of saying "Why did I do this" or "Why is this happening to me?" ask yourself "How can I make a better decision next time? What am I going to do to handle losses better because this is part of the business." Self pity, self destruction, self sabotage.... it all roots from having an inferior self image.

You will continue to make both poor and good decisions to always pull your life back in alignment with how you see yourself--the snap back effect. You cannot do any differently. Self image management is the key to all self improvement financially, emotionally and spiritually. There is an ever-present awareness in you that was here on earth before you arrived, before your parents did, or .... You created your own Ego to govern your self image. The only way to push aside that Ego is gratitude.

"You cannot exercise much power without gratitude because it is gratitude that keeps you connected with power. The creative power within us makes us into the image of that to which we give our attention. The grateful mind is constantly fixed upon the best, therefore it will receive the best." --Wallace Wattles

I have Psycho Cybernetics on audio CD. If you want, feel free to PM me.

-MM

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With trading I was told to follow the plan, keep it 2:1 or better, be patient, let it play out, etc etc. But the reality I discovered was that there are so many opportunities to place a trade, that more important was whether this trade would provide a profit or a loss. I focused on staying in as long as there was profit, and getting out when the risk of turning the profit into a loss became apparent.
I had back tested my strategies, done forward testing in sim, done walk forward testing until I had something consistent. The statistical probability of my strategies was good enough for me to take the plunge. In time I realized that statistics mean very little for future results. They are a guide only. Something that says once upon a time in the past my strategies worked. However, two things will always be missing. You and the next tick.
It took me a long time to accept the fact that intra day trading is about the statistical probability of the immediate future, and to accept the fact that the immediate is often just the next price bar. I realized that trading is a focus on making money. I concentrated on making money each time I entered a trade. I made my trade management decisions focused on preserving my capital. Decisions to stay or get out became easy because my business was now trading. Some trades I lose, some I make 1 tick. Other trades I make 50 ticks. I no longer beat myself up about whether or not I followed the plan. The plan in its simplest terms is to make money... period. For me, if I have to make it 1 tick at a time, so be it. That is me. Part of my plan is to remain flexible because the market is fluid and the future is unknown.
I believe that every trader has to find out what works for them. I believe every trader has to look at themselves in the mirror and decide they are going to take everything they have learned from all their sources, and create themselves new as a trader. Of course, this assumes you have learned enough to create something for yourself. In reality, there is so much free information available that you need to spend enough time wading through enough of it until it begins to make sense to you. Then, take a deep breath, and re-create what you think would be the perfect strategy and approach for you. You can run these ideas by others with more experience if you like, but ultimately, they are not you. Of all the educational options I acted upon, the most valuable was moderating a trade room professionally. It was a sobering and humbling experience. I learned more from the attendees than I had from any mentor or course, mostly about what not to do. The mirror of myself was held up for me to stare at so often that I began to understand more clearly what I needed to do to make money as a trader.
So, discovery and an uncluttered open minded approach to what you are doing as a trader is going to help you not be over influenced one way or the other by other traders, their opinions, their strategies or methods. No one can give you the complete answer to your trading woes. You are going to have to take a little of this, a little of that and create your own future with this. The simpler the better. It is about you making money; not looking good, not being smart or right, not being confident, not being anything except a trader who trades well consistently enough to make money.
I have spent many years developing the thoughts and perceptions that got me the results I got today and of everyday before today. However, when I trade I keep a blank mind. I have no opinions whatsoever. I do not care what the market does. The market will tell me when it is time to place a trade. I simply execute the trade, or not. There is no hurry. There is no deadline.
One of the great secrets to this is the discovery that you may be very good for x amount of ticks per trade. If you are good for say 4 ticks per trade, 7 out of 10 trades, and you have no doubt about this (your journal will tell you) then think leverage.

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furytrader View Post
With all apologies to Chris Farley:

"Let me tell you why I suck as a discretionary trader ...

... Let's say that I put on a trade and let's say it begins to show the smallest hint of a profit ...

... well, then, I get all excited ... I'm like 'JoJo The Idiot Circus Boy' with a pretty new pet ...

... the pet is my profitable trade ....

... (in JoJo's voice) 'oh my pretty little pet, I love you ...'

... so I stroke it, and I pet it, and I massage it ...

... and as soon as the market ticks against me by just a little bit, it's like, 'I love my little naughty pet ... you're naughty!

... and then I take my naughty pet and I go .... KZRRYSKX!!! ... and KRRZZZYXKXK!!!

... ooohhh ... I killed it! I killed it! I exited my profitable trade too early!

... and that's when I blow it ..."

That should win best post of the year. To funny.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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Jaguar52 View Post
With trading I was told to follow the plan, keep it 2:1 or better, be patient, let it play out, etc etc. But the reality I discovered was that there are so many opportunities to place a trade, that more important was whether this trade would provide a profit or a loss. I focused on staying in as long as there was profit, and getting out when the risk of turning the profit into a loss became apparent.
I had back tested my strategies, done forward testing in sim, done walk forward testing until I had something consistent. The statistical probability of my strategies was good enough for me to take the plunge. In time I realized that statistics mean very little for future results. They are a guide only. Something that says once upon a time in the past my strategies worked. However, two things will always be missing. You and the next tick.
It took me a long time to accept the fact that intra day trading is about the statistical probability of the immediate future, and to accept the fact that the immediate is often just the next price bar. I realized that trading is a focus on making money. I concentrated on making money each time I entered a trade. I made my trade management decisions focused on preserving my capital. Decisions to stay or get out became easy because my business was now trading. Some trades I lose, some I make 1 tick. Other trades I make 50 ticks. I no longer beat myself up about whether or not I followed the plan. The plan in its simplest terms is to make money... period. For me, if I have to make it 1 tick at a time, so be it. That is me. Part of my plan is to remain flexible because the market is fluid and the future is unknown.
I believe that every trader has to find out what works for them. I believe every trader has to look at themselves in the mirror and decide they are going to take everything they have learned from all their sources, and create themselves new as a trader. Of course, this assumes you have learned enough to create something for yourself. In reality, there is so much free information available that you need to spend enough time wading through enough of it until it begins to make sense to you. Then, take a deep breath, and re-create what you think would be the perfect strategy and approach for you. You can run these ideas by others with more experience if you like, but ultimately, they are not you. Of all the educational options I acted upon, the most valuable was moderating a trade room professionally. It was a sobering and humbling experience. I learned more from the attendees than I had from any mentor or course, mostly about what not to do. The mirror of myself was held up for me to stare at so often that I began to understand more clearly what I needed to do to make money as a trader.
So, discovery and an uncluttered open minded approach to what you are doing as a trader is going to help you not be over influenced one way or the other by other traders, their opinions, their strategies or methods. No one can give you the complete answer to your trading woes. You are going to have to take a little of this, a little of that and create your own future with this. The simpler the better. It is about you making money; not looking good, not being smart or right, not being confident, not being anything except a trader who trades well consistently enough to make money.
I have spent many years developing the thoughts and perceptions that got me the results I got today and of everyday before today. However, when I trade I keep a blank mind. I have no opinions whatsoever. I do not care what the market does. The market will tell me when it is time to place a trade. I simply execute the trade, or not. There is no hurry. There is no deadline.
One of the great secrets to this is the discovery that you may be very good for x amount of ticks per trade. If you are good for say 4 ticks per trade, 7 out of 10 trades, and you have no doubt about this (your journal will tell you) then think leverage.

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on a Trading Forum. I agree 100% with your sentiments.

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