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I have to say this thread is one of the most interesting things i have seen on the web in a while.
I guess what would be interesting is, if you could describe some of the methods that you employ to keep your self calm, enable patience to wait for the 'right time' and 'right conditions' for your method and then trade them successfully.
It took me a while of being whacked over my ears to learn the importance of discipline and consistency in the true light of it, rather then creating situations in my head that would convince me that timing is right.
To be honest i have no answer to this question, but hard layered time of loosing before learning otherwise. I think it is one of the most critical things in everyday trading.
Markets are logical and
Can you help answer these questions from other members on NexusFi?
Thanks for the kind words . Above the ability to be patient would be the ability to accept whatever happens after the trade has been executed .
For myself I use the following procedure -
I stay away from daytrading . I watch tfs > 1H . I track sr levels on longer tfs .
Then , I can clearly see what conditions are present in my market . This enables me (to have the patience ) to have a pretty good idea whether I should be looking to get long or short and at what levels , if theres a potential profit , and if the risk is acceptable or if I should just stand aside because things are untradeable for my tolerances .
Then its a simple function of waiting , either for a signal or for price to do something while Im in the trade . Since the only time Im really "doing anything" is during the time before the trade I focus all my energy towards that period before the trade . I dont need to exert any energy whatsoever after Im in the market , beyond following my predefined exit regime , because I have no control over what the market does . Since Im not required to "do anything" after I enter theres zero stress while the trade is going down . Stressing out requires a lot of energy , probably more than just accepting whatever happens .
Its also worth noting something else that I have to come to grips with . These larger tfs or overall sr levels tell a story that ties in with staying focussed and calm very nicely .
Going back in this thread Im mentioning finding a market or instrument exactly that suits your personality , ability or capability . By that I mean you need to be able to "see" things coming . If your instrument is inhabited by enough traders that are capable of trading enough size to consistently take out stops then should you apply a trend following method or should you trade double tops/ bottoms ? If your instrument is inhabited by enough scalpers that price never goes too far should you be looking for extended runners or small profits ? If your instrument is inhabited by banks that position themselves for the long haul should you be scalping this instrument ?
Feeling the pulse of your market is easy but if you try to feel it on an intraday level and nothing else then you'll miss its true identity . The first thing every doctor does when you sit on his exam table is take your pulse . Dont you think that if he/she knows your blood pressure they can then make some good evaluations about your overall condition ? Thereafter , knowing the bigger picture they can be confident going forward . When you're confident you think clearly and act with determination and then you're on the path to perseverance .
The guys I followed a lot when I was learning to trade tended to talk about "focusing on your charts" all the time. It seems to me, especially with trading off 1 hour charts, as you are doing, that you would need something else to occupy your time while waiting for a setup. Otherwise you are just inviting over-trading because you are going to need something to do, (at least that's how it goes for me)...
How do you manage that time?
Even the shorter term charts I look at, (you would call it scalping, I'm sure), really only have good setups 2 or 3 times a day... lots of waiting. I would think with hourly charts you could have several days in a row without a trade. This is fine, I understand the importance of waiting for the setup, on my longer term trading I could go weeks without a setup, but I'm just wondering if you actually sit and stare at your charts all day or do you keep them on in the background while you do other things?
Maybe this is more of a style question than anything... I know it is different for everyone.
...also, I agree, this has been a very good thread. Thanks.
You can get help from teachers, but you are going to have to learn a lot by yourself, sitting alone in a room.
Dr. Seuss
I work outside the office . Setups dont occur for me every day but I stay on top of whats happenning with my cellphone . Recently , I reached out to some that traded on their phones and got some great advice and using my android has helped a lot for keeping on top of my trades while not being locked in the office .
I enjoy what I do for a primary source of income and its a big part of my identity so I work hard to keep a balance between that and trading .
Thanks. That is very encouraging. I have a job that I enjoy too, (not to mention it pays the bills), and I am constantly trying to figure a way that I can trade while doing my other job. I have always been under the assumption that I need to be siting here staring at the charts, but I have always noticed my best trading happens when I am doing something else because then I notice the important things on the charts instead of finding myself trying to "create' my own reality and trading where I shouldn't be, more out of boredom...
I really enjoyed a book by Darvas, how he was a dancer traveling all over the world and just got a telegram once a day with the EOD quotes and made his trades based on that and was still able to pursue his profession happily.
I think this is half the battle for me, trying to figure out the "logistics" of all this. The "how, why where" of the process...
You can get help from teachers, but you are going to have to learn a lot by yourself, sitting alone in a room.
Dr. Seuss
Great Discussion: Where were you guys 30 yrs ago!!
Eric and other contributors: I can't acknowledge enough the practical wisdom in the thread. As individuals, we must truly know ourselves and how it impacts our trading.. our self-talk and all that is wrapped up in needing to be "right."
Eventually it comes down to "did I trade well." Well meaning - did I execute my plan - win, lose or scratch..
When I look over my daily trades, my 3 areas of satisfaction are: 1. Proper execution, 2. Winners AND 3. properly executed Losers. I consider losing trades as winners as long as they're the result of proper trade plan execution. They are just part of the normal distribution of probabilities.
The only losers I have are when I fail to execute my plan...
Being aligned with the personality of the market is critical, IMHO. Pure systemic trading does not work for me. I'm sure it works for some.. I am a descretionary trader and while I have some indicators that support what I think is developing I also "read" the market... that's how I learned...back in the Stoneage.. before indicators.. just charts and a ruler..hi-tech S#%&*...
We all follow a similar path it seems. Most of us seek some indicator or combination that removes the need for judgement and offloads discipline to a mechanized model, a canned decisionmaking process supported by statistically valid probabilities. As it has been very well documented the market is not static and the probabilites do not hold up.
I'm sure, like everything some are very successful with this... I spent years coding, developing, etc.. I wanted a "money in/money out" machine... but I'm a descretionary trader.. within certain rules... unfortunately trading is not necessarily back & white but shades of gray...
As was mentioned, no matter how you slice an oscillator ..it's still is a lagging indicator.. and no matter which oscillator you choose they are pretty much the same.. Indicators for me tend to support a trade once it's on and I can recognize behavior in an indicator that indicates a potential change in momentum as I approach a target.., etc.. Seeing some divergence is ok...but not a big part and certainly not critical to any decision..for me..
As a day trader, many buses come by...for me waiting is difficult as well as staying through rotations waiting for a target... Often when In recognize a rotation, I say to myself, why don't I get out, lock in a profit and then re-enter at a better price - scalp against my position.. Problem: I don't know how far it will rotate and I might give up trade location..so I have learned to sit..
The wisdom of this thread and the clarity expressed is one of the best I have ever read. This thread, IMHO..should be required reading for all who wish to enter this profession...
One thought - It seems to me that only in hindsight that a trader can relate to these issues.. only with experience can we see that we have all been there before. How does one who only has a fantasy of what this business is relate to the wisdom on these pages... ? Would it be the same as a parent talking to a child? I am no longer objective but I cetianly saw myself in the posts...
Very kind words and much appreciated . Hope some of this really helps someone or everyone save some $ or their sanity when the markets twist their psyches in a knot .
Did you ever answer a question and the person asking the question immediately says " I know ! " ? Do they ask questions just to wait until their beliefs are confirmed or do they really want to gain wisdom?
Did you ever notice that some people make statements like "the successful traders dont use indicators" ? Did they interview every trader that ever traded , found the ones that win more than lose then witness them performing their trading routine ? Not likely .
Its important to not believe everything you read or hear , in life and in trading . You will propel yourself much further towards success IF you discover yourself , your abilities and your weaknesses . I see and read posts by many that try to learn or specifically duplicate someone elses trading method or regime . I subsequently see the followers struggle to keep up and unfortunately fade away .
The simple reason , very simple , that this occurs is not the followers fault . Its natural to want to emulate a success but its a futile mission to say the least . Simply put , when one commits to winning they are in a dynamic state of always learning and always perceiving and always being humble enough to accept a flow of information . If one attempts to follow the winner they are in a static position busy picking up tidbits left behind in the wake of the winners .
I dont mean to put anyone down , only shake them up a little to share the stuff I had to learn the hard way , wait , I can hear something echoing - " I know " .
- Don't use indicators
- Do use tons of indicators
- Use astrology
- Use market profile
- Use order flow analysis
- Use traditional volume analysis
- Use spreads
- Risk 1% of their account
- Risk 10% of their account
- Scale in/scale out
- Trade all in/all out
- Buy weakness, Sell strength
- Buy strength, Sell weakness
In other words, I believe success is not dictated so much by an individual method you use to enter or exit, but rather the experience you have with the market in general, the experience you have with your method, and your ability to execute well on your feelings of how the market is moving.
I think my point is proven by how wildly varying successful traders "setups" and what is on there screen can be. Some traders may love Ichimoku, others may laugh at it. Some may swear by astrology, while others laugh. Some may swear by Elliott Wave, while others laugh. Some may swear by Fibonacci, while others laugh. But they can all be profitable, all independent of a particular method.
Agreed . The point here is that the ones without experience can easily make mistakes that cost them painful amounts of money and even worse damaging psychological effects that become a barrier to ultimate success . The biggest mistake imho is the one where they commit themselves to copying/emulating a method or approach employed by someone else , to the T , as they perceive it.
The markets are way too elusive to be nailed down the same way by everyone . The trick is to nail it down the way you see fit . Nailing it down the way someone else sees fit deprives one of seeing whats happenning before their eyes due to the fact they're already adapting to someone elses viewpoint .
Its tough to trust ourselves and we reach to someone or something to trust . Why this is I dont know but I do know that breaking through this barrier is a job in itself. When you do learn to trust yourself you'll always make consistently good decisions and do whats best for yourself .
