$500-1000 per day from part time trading - futures io
futures io futures trading



$500-1000 per day from part time trading


Discussion in Psychology and Money Management

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one RM99 with 6 posts (13 thanks)
    2. looks_two Limitless100 with 5 posts (4 thanks)
    3. looks_3 Underexposed with 5 posts (5 thanks)
    4. looks_4 Big Mike with 4 posts (19 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one Big Mike with 4.8 thanks per post
    2. looks_two grausch with 4 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 RM99 with 2.2 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 bluemele with 2 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 24,177 views
    2. thumb_up 99 thanks given
    3. group 27 followers
    1. forum 51 posts
    2. attach_file 0 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 125,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

$500-1000 per day from part time trading

(login for full post details)
  #1 (permalink)
australia
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: -
 
Posts: 303 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 123 given, 138 received

If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year

Started this thread Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to jonc for this post:

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on futures io?
Full platform with Python extension?
Platforms and Indicators
ZigZag with Depth and Backstep
EasyLanguage Programming
Which kind of Blockvolume is visible? - order processing
Emini and Emicro Index
SimplerOptions
Trading Reviews and Vendors
If ES tracks SPX, why do support/resistance, Level 2, vo …
Emini and Emicro Index
 
 
(login for full post details)
  #3 (permalink)
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: ATC/TT, AMP/Zen-Fire, AMP/CQG
Trading: TF
 
bluemele's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,547 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 3,803 given, 2,836 received



jonc View Post
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year

It depends on how deeply I hated my current line of work and how much I enjoy trading and whether I believe that less work and more trading would improve my results.

I would probably ensure that my savings account could take a stumble year, so I would have to have at least 2 years living expenses working for me in a safer type of investment. Then I would drop the work that I didn't want to do (if that is the case) and do something I did enjoy doing along with trading.

In my opinion, if you can't trade in 1.5 hours profitably, then you may be a workaholic!

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to bluemele for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #4 (permalink)
Site Sponsor

Web: Jigsaw Trading
AMA: Ask Me Anything
Webinars: Jigsaw Trading Webinars
Elite offer: Click here
 
 
Jigsaw Trading's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,977 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 823 given, 10,315 received


jonc View Post
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year

Is your presumption here that people are earning less than that in their day jobs?

252 trading days a year
Take 5 off sick
Take 20 off for vacations

Leaves you with 227 days. That comes out to $113,500 -> $227,000

But no benefits such as pension/401k, healthcare or insurance.

I'd want a bit more than $1k a day, personally.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to Jigsaw Trading for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #5 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Trading: Emini Futures
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 49,780 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,308 given, 97,567 received

Further, if your profitable 70% of the days -- you make $1,000 a day 7 out of 10 days, but lose $1,000 a day 3 out of 10 days -- your net is only $4,000 over 10 trading days.

Now you are only making $90,800 a year and while you might think you are "making $1,000 a day".

Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #6 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 124 given, 701 received

Invariably, we see this philosophical/fantasy question consistently.

My first question would be....

If you can make $1000/day trading and you've done it for 6 months, why can't you make $10k/day?

At $500/day, over 6 months (126 trading days), that's $63k in profit.

Unless you're choking out your profits by spending them.....you should be able to scale up. Surely an extra $63k in capital would permit even the most conservative trader to add a contract/lot.

I guess if you were tying up $1M in order to make your daily $500, (or spending it),

But the first question I would ask someone who claims they can make $500/day trading and do it consistently, is why can't they make $1000/day, or $2k/day, etc.

I'm not in this for a hobby. I'm not in this for a day job. I'm in this to eventually retire and spend my days fishing or watching HS football or sitting on a beach and re-enacting a Corona commercial.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users say Thank You to RM99 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #7 (permalink)
Oslo, Norway
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: CQG, Excel
Trading: CL
 
Lornz's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,198 since Apr 2010

Money is irrelevant... A better measurement of success would be the ticks per contract/share you make/risk...

If pull in $500 a day on the ES with one contract, you can make $5000 without needing to make any tweaks -- other than adding 9 contracts, of course...

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #8 (permalink)
Nürnberg, Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja Trader
Broker: IB/Kinetick
Trading: CL, YM
 
PowerM's Avatar
 
Posts: 111 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 157 given, 44 received


jonc View Post
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year

Hi,

me as that simple guy I am would clearly quit my day job, but I wouldn`t be in a hurry to do trading full time. I would like to spend the rest of my day for what ever I would like to but not feeling the pulse of the markets necessarily ...

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to PowerM for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #9 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Trading: Emini Futures
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 49,780 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,308 given, 97,567 received


RM99 View Post
My first question would be....

If you can make $1000/day trading and you've done it for 6 months, why can't you make $10k/day?


Lornz View Post
If pull in $500 a day on the ES with one contract, you can make $5000 without needing to make any tweaks -- other than adding 9 contracts, of course...

I used to think this way. But then when I put it into practice, I quickly realized I am not a robot. I am a discretionary trader. Yes, yes, for all the automation guys out there. But I am a discretionary trader. So to answer your question as to why if you are doing 1k a day why not make it 10k, the answer is simple: psychology. More risk alters your decision making capabilities.

I continue to trade bigger over time, but it's not just a matter of adding some zeros to the end of my lot size and pressing "go".

Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 11 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #10 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 124 given, 701 received



Big Mike View Post
I used to think this way. But then when I put it into practice, I quickly realized I am not a robot. I am a discretionary trader. Yes, yes, for all the automation guys out there. But I am a discretionary trader. So to answer your question as to why if you are doing 1k a day why not make it 10k, the answer is simple: psychology. More risk alters your decision making capabilities.

I continue to trade bigger over time, but it's not just a matter of adding some zeros to the end of my lot size and pressing "go".

Mike

This would truly be a psych issue.

Actually, if you don't increase your positionsize (along with your capital) then you're decreasing your relative risk.

If your R multiple is 30 ticks, and your positionsize is based off some rational relationship to your capital, then that 30 tick R, is 30 ticks, regardless of whether it's 1 contract or 2.

If reducing your relative risk over time is an actual deliberate goal, then trading and banking the profit makes sense.

Like I said, even the most conservative trader can pocket 50% of his earnings and increase his absolute risk (but maintain the same relative risk) by putting the rest to work.

Then again, I'm the guy that would definitely double down on a video bonus question at the end of the cash cab ride. You've already arrive and gotten a free cab ride. If you've gotten a free cab ride, it means that you answered more questions correctly than you answered incorrectly. The free ride aside, if you figure you have a better than 50% chance of getting the question correct, at a payout of 2:1, then it only makes sense.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. It takes risk in order to receive rewards.

I guess my overarching point should be that I usually speak in terms of profit% rather than absolute, because any length of time with a profitable % should incorporate varying absolute return values. (in my opinion)

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to RM99 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #11 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Trading: Emini Futures
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 49,780 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,308 given, 97,567 received

That sounds good on paper. In practice it's a different story. More power to discretionary traders who can do what you've said. I am happy where I am at, and like I said, I am increasing size slowly.

Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #12 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 124 given, 701 received


Big Mike View Post
That sounds good on paper. In practice it's a different story. More power to discretionary traders who can do what you've said. I am happy where I am at, and like I said, I am increasing size slowly.

Mike

Agreed Mike, not criticizing anyone. Different perspectives.

I have a gambler's mentality. When I walk into a casino, after I've doubled whatever I was willing to lose, I usually put that back in my pocket and then from that point, I'm playing on "house" money. Sometimes I end up losing it back, but sometimes I end up making a great deal more because I'm not playing on scared money. The way I see it, it's money I didn't have before, so I'm not at any loss if I give it back.

The counter view would be that a dollar is a dollar and dumping it back is still losing money that would have been mine had I been more cautious.

It's wierd how I have an obsessive view of risk management with respect to other aspects of trading. I'm a huge proponent of backtesting, throrough expectancy development/confirmation, making sure I have contingencies in place, etc.

Again, my point still stands that even the most conservative discretionary guy would put some of the extra capital to use if he was earning $1k/day (or even $500/day) at some point.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to RM99 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #13 (permalink)
new york
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: SC, NT
Trading: CL, GC
 
Posts: 213 since Sep 2009
Thanks: 99 given, 113 received


RM99 View Post
Agreed Mike, not criticizing anyone. Different perspectives.

I have a gambler's mentality. When I walk into a casino, after I've doubled whatever I was willing to lose, I usually put that back in my pocket and then from that point, I'm playing on "house" money. Sometimes I end up losing it back, but sometimes I end up making a great deal more because I'm not playing on scared money. The way I see it, it's money I didn't have before, so I'm not at any loss if I give it back.

Victor Sperandeo demonstrated this in his book Trader Vic. It is in the section on how to maximum profit.

Very good read. It is a good general course on economy. This is useful when you have a lot of money and need to deploy some on the fundamental side.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to cw30000 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #14 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: ninjatrader, r-trader
Trading: NQ, CL
 
liquidcci's Avatar
 
Posts: 865 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 610 given, 1,070 received


jonc View Post
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year

6 months is not very long. But I would say if you have a good primary income and can trade part time and make money why not just keep doing what you are doing? There are inherit pressures that come with depending on trading to eat. Plus by living off another income you can build your trading account allowing you to take on more size over time. Cash to a trader is your inventory and lifeblood. The more you build up the safer you are and the more business you can do just like any business.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to liquidcci for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #15 (permalink)
Chicago, IL/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: CTS T4/Sierra Chart
Trading: Futures
 
zer0's Avatar
 
Posts: 139 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 49 given, 191 received

A. No. Only quit your 'day job' once it becomes a true hindrance to acquiring vast wealth, or is no longer serving as a psychological hedge which ultimately helps ensure sound trading. That is, of course, assuming your trading is discretionary.

B. Yes. Until the utility of your 'day job' loses any relevance in the grand scheme.

C. Yes, minimum. This provides time to make certain what you believe is in fact reality. The market isn't going anywhere. Don't take your time, but don't take unnecessary risks either.

I am of the ilk that trading is not for making 'a living'. I am trading with one purpose only, the only logical reason I know: to get rich. This is easier to accomplish when you don't need to succeed to put food on the table.

Before I get lambasted for saying so, let me make clear that is simply my take. No doubt others can perform at a similar level, in spite of the need to produce. I, on the other hand, prefer other, reliable, streams (even if it/they offers less than my trading efforts) of income to 'live' from; making my trading life easier.



jonc View Post
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year


Reply With Quote
The following 6 users say Thank You to zer0 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #16 (permalink)
Sacramento, CA
 
Experience: None
Platform: None
Broker: ADM and Sierra Charts
Trading: ES, CL
 
eudamonia's Avatar
 
Posts: 315 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 308 given, 448 received

I think a lot of this question comes down to personal circumstances and what you wish to achieve from trading. Also a lot of people ignore overhead (cost of living).

For example if you are only currently making $30k a year from a job you hate currently but could make $90k a year trading (and you love trading) then what is holding you back? On the other hand if you are making $150k a year from a job you love then you'd need more motiviation to actually leave.

Also beyond what you make how much do you actually spend? If you are a penny pinching bachelor spending $1.5k a month that is entirely different than if you are the sole bread winner for a family that likes to spend say $7k a month.

For my personal scenario I am waiting until I'm making about 4-5 times my monthly cost from trading before I quit my job. The reason is that I enjoy my job a great deal and my job isn't holding me back from trading very much. Also before I quit I would want at least a years worth of savings on top of my trading account.

However, none of this is set in stone. I know a very successful trader who quit his job with far fewer resources and now trades full time successfully. He was 21, single, and working at a crummy retail job before he quit. He had plenty of motivation and little to lose if things didn't work out.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to eudamonia for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #17 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 124 given, 701 received


eudamonia View Post
I think a lot of this question comes down to personal circumstances and what you wish to achieve from trading. Also a lot of people ignore overhead (cost of living).

For example if you are only currently making $30k a year from a job you hate currently but could make $90k a year trading (and you love trading) then what is holding you back? On the other hand if you are making $150k a year from a job you love then you'd need more motiviation to actually leave.

Also beyond what you make how much do you actually spend? If you are a penny pinching bachelor spending $1.5k a month that is entirely different than if you are the sole bread winner for a family that likes to spend say $7k a month.

For my personal scenario I am waiting until I'm making about 4-5 times my monthly cost from trading before I quit my job. The reason is that I enjoy my job a great deal and my job isn't holding me back from trading very much. Also before I quit I would want at least a years worth of savings on top of my trading account.

However, none of this is set in stone. I know a very successful trader who quit his job with far fewer resources and now trades full time successfully. He was 21, single, and working at a crummy retail job before he quit. He had plenty of motivation and little to lose if things didn't work out.

Time Value of Money.

I have a great friend who's a professional options trader. He has a recent client who came into a small inheretence last year. She started out with approximately $60k and even though he yielded over 200% in returns for her last year, he couldn't get her to see that she was shooting herself in the foot by spending profits generated to the account.

She spent nearly $40k (went out and bought a new car, trip to Hawaii, computer for her daughter, moved into a new place, etc.)

He tried to show her that for every dollar she was spending, it was literally costing her anywhere from $3-$5 because had she left that $40k in the account, it would be worth over $120k at this point (thus her $40k in spending actually cost her $120k).

He's since dumped her, but it's difficult to get clients to agree to the "your money belongs to me for 6 months and don't ask questions" model for management/investing it.

If you're spending your earnings from investing, AT ALL, then you're truly choking yourself while trying to run on a treadmill.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to RM99 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #18 (permalink)
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: ATC/TT, AMP/Zen-Fire, AMP/CQG
Trading: TF
 
bluemele's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,547 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 3,803 given, 2,836 received


RM99 View Post
Invariably, we see this philosophical/fantasy question consistently.

My first question would be....

If you can make $1000/day trading and you've done it for 6 months, why can't you make $10k/day?

At $500/day, over 6 months (126 trading days), that's $63k in profit.

Unless you're choking out your profits by spending them.....you should be able to scale up. Surely an extra $63k in capital would permit even the most conservative trader to add a contract/lot.

I guess if you were tying up $1M in order to make your daily $500, (or spending it),

But the first question I would ask someone who claims they can make $500/day trading and do it consistently, is why can't they make $1000/day, or $2k/day, etc.

I'm not in this for a hobby. I'm not in this for a day job. I'm in this to eventually retire and spend my days fishing or watching HS football or sitting on a beach and re-enacting a Corona commercial.

Dude, done the corona commercial. Only a few people I have met can actually do it for any amount of time.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to bluemele for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #19 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 124 given, 701 received


bluemele View Post
Dude, done the corona commercial. Only a few people I have met can actually do it for any amount of time.

Agreed. But the point is that true financial freedom means that you work when and if you want to work and generally speaking you can do something that you love (that may not pay well and rarely does) or pursue other ambitions.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to RM99 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #20 (permalink)
Sacramento, CA
 
Experience: None
Platform: None
Broker: ADM and Sierra Charts
Trading: ES, CL
 
eudamonia's Avatar
 
Posts: 315 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 308 given, 448 received


RM99 View Post
If you're spending your earnings from investing, AT ALL, then you're truly choking yourself while trying to run on a treadmill.

I agree that in your example it was foolish for the client to spend a significant portion of her investment income particularly on luxury items. However, based on your last sentence there is no purpose in investing - since you shouldn't spend any of it. Clearly that wouldn't make any sense.

As I mentioned it really comes down to what you value most and how easily that resource is replenished.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to eudamonia for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #21 (permalink)
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 124 given, 701 received


eudamonia View Post
I agree that in your example it was foolish for the client to spend a significant portion of her investment income particularly on luxury items. However, based on your last sentence there is no purpose in investing - since you shouldn't spend any of it. Clearly that wouldn't make any sense.

As I mentioned it really comes down to what you value most and how easily that resource is replenished.

I guess I should have clarified, you need to allow an account to grow exponentially at first.

Withdrawing funds is inevitable, you just have to realize that for every $ you're withdrawing, it's costing you more than that in potential returns.

Eventually, you grow an account system to "saturation." Most of my scalping approaches saturate very quickly, where adding more positionsize is either diminishing ROI or even negative. It only takes a small positionsize to fully saturate the approach. In that example, once you've capitalized and saturated the system, now the profits are either ripe to be used at your discretion OR you have to seek other instruments/methods for putting that capital to use.

The Time Value of Money concept was beaten into me by a guy who started investing when he was 35. At the time he was like 61. He showed me that had he simply started when he was 25 it was multiples more money for his retirement. His emphasis was on the early period of an investment (or trading) strategy. The early money is the most significant and powerful....because it has the longest time to take into account the compounding.

The other thing my buddy tried to explain to his client was that taking a $40k account to $100k requires 250% yield. Taking a $60k account to $100k only takes 75%. So a simple 33% reduction in available capital needed a 333% increase in yield in order to make the same target amount.

He told her, if you'll wait a year, you can buy 2 cars and take 2 trips and have way more money leftover than by choking me out now.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #22 (permalink)
 
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,487 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 2,425 given, 3,751 received


jonc View Post
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year

Let me try and answer this:

6 Months is a not enough of a period to measure whether you can survive in trading.
Methodologies at times can can work for prolonged period and then don't stand a chance in some new market environment.
2-3 years is a much better measurement.

Earning perception is individual. The focus should not be nominal.
What matters is the risk to reward you have taken during this period and how you achieved your success.
What risk did you take? how frequently did you trade? What volatility has the instrument been through and it is typical historically?

One point of reference are any professional money managers like fund managers, CTAs, etc.
Some funds who have increase in their size can't match their performance when they were small.
This is a not a psychology factor, rather now they have to scale their position into the market which is a lot harder.
A discretionary trader that increase size could find himself with this challenge as well.

Last advice: Think, Plan and have a Strategy. Quitting your job is neither of those.
I trust that decision of changing things will come naturally as you trust your method over a long time.

I hope this helps you in your evaluation.

(The is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading).

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to mattz for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #23 (permalink)
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: ATC/TT, AMP/Zen-Fire, AMP/CQG
Trading: TF
 
bluemele's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,547 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 3,803 given, 2,836 received


mattz View Post
Let me try and answer this:

6 Months is a not enough of a period to measure whether you can survive in trading.
Methodologies at times can can work for prolonged period and then don't stand a chance in some new market environment.
2-3 years is a much better measurement.

Earning perception is individual. The focus should not be nominal.
What matters is the risk to reward you have taken during this period and how you achieved your success.
What risk did you take? how frequently did you trade? What volatility has the instrument been through and it is typical historically?

One point of reference are any professional money managers like fund managers, CTAs, etc.
Some funds who have increase in their size can't match their performance when they were small.
This is a not a psychology factor, rather now they have to scale their position into the market which is a lot harder.
A discretionary trader that increase size could find himself with this challenge as well.

Last advice: Think, Plan and have a Strategy. Quitting your job is neither of those.
I trust that decision of changing things will come naturally as you trust your method over a long time.

I hope this helps you in your evaluation.

(The is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading).

All great points. That is something I didn't get for about 1.5 years of day trading. Very good points.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to bluemele for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #24 (permalink)
athens,greece
 
 
Posts: 55 since Sep 2011
Thanks: 5 given, 23 received


jonc View Post
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year

my answer would be A.i would quit my job YESTERDAY if that happened.
the fact is that i don't like my job very much (not so much as i love trading)
so the answer is obvious to me

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #25 (permalink)
Chicago, IL
 
Experience: Master
Platform: Kinetick Ninja Trader <7>
Broker: Ninja & IB
Trading: YM & Equities & Options & Mutual Funds
 
Posts: 175 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 56 given, 87 received

Nice question and great responses... one thing is if your making your NUT in the volatility of the current market and then you get hit with ZERO VOLATILITY and an ES that moves 4 pts in a day... then what? Remember last summer? Market conditions will effect your daily take.

I guess then the Condor would fly again, ah how I miss the Condor, an endangered species now a days.

The great thing about a job is it is a hedge against bad trading.... presuming you don't trade more than a few hours a day.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to mainstream for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #26 (permalink)
CA
 
Experience: Master
Platform: Marketdelta and Ninja
Broker: Velocity
Trading: NQ
 
Posts: 670 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 64 given, 526 received

I always give Mattz a thumbs up. Most brokers know that traders fail, but they open accounts anyways with a 2500 deposit and 500 day trade margins so they can get as much as they can in commission. Matt at least is honest. He doesn't try to churn accounts.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #27 (permalink)
Chicago, IL/USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: CTS T4/Sierra Chart
Trading: Futures
 
zer0's Avatar
 
Posts: 139 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 49 given, 191 received

Indeed, and this is why one should constantly filter markets for volatility. Change is the capital accumulating mechanism. If there isn't sufficient volatility in one's market(s) of choice, it is then time to move along to greener pastures.


mainstream View Post
Nice question and great responses... one thing is if your making your NUT in the volatility of the current market and then you get hit with ZERO VOLATILITY and an ES that moves 4 pts in a day... then what? Remember last summer? Market conditions will effect your daily take.

I guess then the Condor would fly again, ah how I miss the Condor, an endangered species now a days.

The great thing about a job is it is a hedge against bad trading.... presuming you don't trade more than a few hours a day.


Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #28 (permalink)
australia
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: -
 
Posts: 303 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 123 given, 138 received


mainstream View Post
Nice question and great responses... one thing is if your making your NUT in the volatility of the current market and then you get hit with ZERO VOLATILITY and an ES that moves 4 pts in a day... then what? Remember last summer? Market conditions will effect your daily take.

I guess then the Condor would fly again, ah how I miss the Condor, an endangered species now a days.

The great thing about a job is it is a hedge against bad trading.... presuming you don't trade more than a few hours a day.

I was surprised at some of the responses on the topic which geared toward a different direction which I originally intended. But nevertheless there were many great responses to help me think through the issue and the responses were pretty revealing about the individuals who posted.

The way I trade generally would have low risk and higher consistency in a non-volatile market and smaller profit per trade, this generally means a steadily up-trending market. My sizing per position would be much larger as well.

However it is when there is high volatility that huge profits per trade comes in.

Currently my job is limiting the time I can trade. I guess I should do better if I can focus more on trading.

You are right about the job as a hedge, I do not assume and is not complacent to think that a few months later I would for sure be able to keep up with the same results. Since I have no idea what would happens in a few months, what's more a few years from now? I know good risk control/management is critical to successful trading and most certainly success in life.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #29 (permalink)
round rock, tx
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: ninjatrader
Trading: oil, gold, euro
 
Posts: 9 since May 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 5 received

If I could earn 500 per day I would quit my day time job. I currently get a pension from the military and also get my health insurance for me and my family from the military (Tricare an HMO). Now I just need to learn how to trade and be consistent.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to slagzone for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #30 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Chicago Illinois USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Broker: IB, ToS
Trading: /ES, US Equities/Options
 
wldman's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,341 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 1,978 given, 8,830 received

for your service to the nation. I hope the sttatus quo for you and all our vets only increases over time. Best of luck with your trading. DB

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to wldman for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #31 (permalink)
Buffalo, NY
 
 
Posts: 64 since Jul 2014
Thanks: 4 given, 37 received

Not offsetting the certainty of transaction costs, taxes, cost of living, healthcare, etc with another certain income stream is just bad gambling. It is one thing if you are talking about professional trading that involves a management fee you are going to get with certainty + a heads I win, tails you lose performance fee. That is a nice structure to build into a business.

Building a business based off simply the compounding of your own capital though is rather nonsensical.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to NoiseTrader716 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #32 (permalink)
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
Thanks: 11 given, 49 received

IF my adventures in trading are successful like I want and hope, then eventually I will rely on it for income.

BUT, I've already established rules for that. I know full well that profit taking will mean taking working capital out of my
trading account, so I will not do any profit taking until certain clearly defined goals are met.

I do intend to do some profit taking to hedge against a bad day. A certain amount of profit taking is essential. I do
not see any point in amassing a massive fortune and never using any of that money for anything other than making the
fortune larger. At some point it needs to fund my daily living, and even, dare I hope, improve my standard of living
substantially.


The numbers for me as I've chosen them:

When I have made 25,000 dollars, I'll take 5000 out and transfer it to a bank account.
When I make an additional 25,000, I'll bank another 5000.

After five iterations, I'd have 100,000 in the trading account and 25,000 safe in the bank.

And so on, for a while. I'll build my trade fund at 4x the rate of my banked profits.

This allows for rapid growth of the trading fund AND good growth of banked profits which can be used to fund
my financial needs.

I firmly believe in the principle of "let it ride" to allow the trading account to grow, but I also believe that
profit taking is essential for security.

The IDEAL situation comes when my rate of account growth due to profits exceeds my need for money to fund
my lifestyle, and by a respectable margin. (Double or greater.) At this point I can then start funneling additional
profits into high yield investments that are safe and easy and don't require me to day trade to get them.

Of course I've gamed out various scenarios, both realistic and unrealistic, concerning how much you could earn
if you got a consistent yield.

You double your initial investment in 70 trade sessions if you got 1 percent yield in every session.
You multiply your initial investment in 212 sessions at 1 percent yield every session.
Roll your yield back into your trading fund and use it all every time you trade, and your growth rate looks like this:

At a yield of 2 percent, the 2x and 10x points come at sessions 36 and 107.

At a yield of 3 percent, the 2x and 10x points come at sessions 24 and 78.

At a yield of 4 percent, the 2x and 10x points come at sessions 18 and 59.

At a yield of 5 percent, the 2x and 10x points come at sessions 15 and 48.

Of course, it's unrealistic to expect a consistent yield of 5 percent, or 4 percent, or even 3 percent, BUT I think that a very level headed, careful trader can probably consistently make 2 percent or better.

I'm still very new at this but my own trade book has me averaging 5 percent yield to date. Perhaps I've been lucky,
and in fact I'm sure I've had some luck. My last outing in the market yielded a bit over 10.5 percent returns.

At the time I write this, I've only had ONE day where I lost money and the amount lost was about 24 dollars,
which hardly caused me to panic and think this was not for me.

The real appeal to day trading for me is simply this: NOBODY stands between me and the money except for my own
decisions. I don't have to wait for a paycheck, I don't have to produce a product, I don't have to provide a service,
I have no customers to satisfy. It's only me vs. the market and my own decisions are all that stand between me
and the money. This is IDEAL for me.

If you were to assume that I am going to make a consistent good return, there will come a day when I will have to adapt my trading strategies as I do believe in the principle of not making trades that are big enough to materially influence the market. It's OK to be a drop in the bucket, as that's not going to materially effect the trading price by itself, but if you're making such a big order that it amounts to you dropping a bowling ball in a bucket, then the market reaction is likely to move the price exactly in the direction you don't want it to go. So if i should ever get to the point
where I can make trades that are that big, then I need to limit the size of those trades and distribute my trading money
among multiple separate trades with different stocks, which increases the risk of hitting one that goes down when I want it to go up.

But then again, as my account grows larger, I can also happily accept a smaller return, too, which makes things easier. I WANT 2 percent or better with an account value under 10,000 dollars, but with an account value of 100,000 dollars, 1 percent yield would make me quite happy. With a million dollars to play with, I'd be happy to make as little as 0.1 percent which is a thousand dollars. But I think I could do better than 0.1 percent with a million dollars to play with. I'm betting that eventually I will prove it.

If I could pull in an average profit of 2000 dollars per week I'd be thrilled beyond words.

And I only trade one day per week. I have to do that at this point in the game because my trade account is not big
enough for me to be able to split it up for multiple transactions, so I have to wait due to the settled funds rule.
Plus, I have a day job which gives me only Fridays off.

I am looking forward to the day when I can walk away from the day job but I think it'll be a while, IF it ever happens at all.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to Carrerain4 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #33 (permalink)
Luxembourg, Luxembourg
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TWS
Broker: Interactive Brokers
Trading: Stocks
 
Posts: 491 since May 2012
Thanks: 1,641 given, 1,149 received


jonc View Post
Currently my job is limiting the time I can trade. I guess I should do better if I can focus more on trading.

I may not post here often, but I have seen that line of reasoning a lot of times before. I would be very careful assuming that spending more time in front of the screen would lead to better results. I have personally seen a few traders who can do well trading part-time, completely blow up when going full-time. Part of the problem is the desire to trade, which means that quite often sub-optimal trades are taken. The desire to trade can be brought about by numerous things, but the primary reason seems to be that these traders need to make money to put food on the table.

Just my 2 cents, but I would be very hesitant to quit my job and trade full-time unless I had several years of good performance and had a sizeable bank-roll to fall back on. If you don't need to make money, then trading becomes easier. If you need to make money, I would say you are almost doomed to fail.

Reply With Quote
The following 7 users say Thank You to grausch for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #34 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


jonc View Post
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year

You don't state the type of trading that you are doing and what constitutes part time trading.

The portfolio in my phantom account in my journal is pretty representative (I believe) of a long term trader...I set out the weekly gain/loss of that portfolio. Sometimes I have a good week and I make one or two thousand...Sometimes I lose it too. but overall I move forward and after 7 months I have gained over 8% on $100,000. Right NOW, that would be about the average gain of a long term investor and I still have 5 months to go....if I continue this performance I might end up with about 14-15% gain...somewhere between $14,000 to $15,000.

You cannot live off of that amount of money...you could if you had between $500,000 and $1,000,000 in your initial account and lived a fairly thrifty life. You don't want to spend every dime of the gain obviously (or maybe not) as you want your holdings to grow, don't you?

If I had $100,000,000 using my model portfolio I would end up with about 10x the gains or about $150,000 and with about 250 business days in a year that would be... about $700/day on average gain

So, a decent long term trader with $1 million in their account could do that on an average year.... but you have not stated what that mythical person's account balance is to start with before considering your options.

I don't trade options...I do do future's contracts...So I have no idea of the profitability of such trades. I know that they are leveraged...bigger gains...bigger losses? I have certainly heard the woes on this site about blowing accounts.

I have shown you what a long term trader in stocks needs to be able to make that $500 - $1000/day average. I wonder how much initial poke you need to make that kind of coin doing options/futures or forex. Something tells me that consistently making $500 - $1000/day involves a pretty healthy risk compared to what I am familiar with. But I am ignorant of such trades so I am just guessing.

Stock day traders, would have a heck of a time making $500 - $1000 per day....they would have to be extremely skilled since most of them to believe 2-5% /day is good money and they certainly are not doing this part time. Just researching and finding the suitable trades would take a good chunk of the day...then making the trades themselves and following them to completion...requires constant vigilance. Do Skilled Day traders do this...yep I think they can but they would be all-in every day with about $30,000 to $50,000 and I haven't met a day trader yet that has a winning day every day...and newbies to this trade lose all of their money in one year 90% of the time according to Stats. Also...I would imagine it would be pretty hard to day trade $500,000 to $1,000,000...the pressures would be enormous and you don't get the leverage (unless you are silly enough to use margin)

So unless you are a skilled long term trader with an account balance of about $1,000,000 fully traded I don't think you could average $500 - $1000 part-time


I am saying this without knowing the amount of money needed to get this kind of gain in forex/options/futures and do it part time....maybe someone could comment on the reality of such part time gains in these areas of trading.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #35 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Prince George BC Canada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: IBs TWS
Broker: IB
Trading: Stocks
 
deaddog's Avatar
 
Posts: 852 since May 2013
Thanks: 131 given, 2,314 received


jonc View Post
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

A. Would you quit your day job and go full time trading? - potentially getting better results from doing it full time since you can be more focused.
B. Keep your day job and treat trading as an additional income stream?
C. Trade for another year before deciding ? This might cap your performance for an entire year

Of course the answer is; It Depends.

Do I like my job; is there opportunity for advancement?
If I quit my job how easy is it for me to find another job quickly if I have to?
Do I make $500 per day on my job?
How much capital do I have?
Can I survive if I have a bad month or two?
Do I have any one depending on me and how supportive are they?
How confident am I about my method?
Why am I asking this question to a bunch of anonymous posters on a trading forum?

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #36 (permalink)
Gatineau Quebec Canada
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: Stocks
 
erobertsonag's Avatar
 
Posts: 107 since Aug 2014
Thanks: 69 given, 79 received

Averaging 500-1000$ daily part time in trading is something. It is even better being that stable for 6 months. I would say that being that profitable with a day job, think at it twice before changing anything in your lifestyle. It maybe the security of your day job that brings you the confidence and success in trading. I would suggest to make any change (day job or any other change) in a progressive manner. Like starting with one day per week without day job. And also, when you are done making an average of 750$ per day part time (lets say in the AM) on the markets, I would take the rest of the day to take care of me (go to the gym) my wife and children, friends and my things !

I am wondering if this question is for a kind of study or statistical research ? :-)

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to erobertsonag for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #37 (permalink)
New York, New York
 
 
Posts: 97 since May 2014
Thanks: 163 given, 61 received


Underexposed View Post
You don't state the type of trading that you are doing and what constitutes part time trading.

The portfolio in my phantom account in my journal is pretty representative (I believe) of a long term trader...I set out the weekly gain/loss of that portfolio. Sometimes I have a good week and I make one or two thousand...Sometimes I lose it too. but overall I move forward and after 7 months I have gained over 8% on $100,000. Right NOW, that would be about the average gain of a long term investor and I still have 5 months to go....if I continue this performance I might end up with about 14-15% gain...somewhere between $14,000 to $15,000.

You cannot live off of that amount of money...you could if you had between $500,000 and $1,000,000 in your initial account and lived a fairly thrifty life. You don't want to spend every dime of the gain obviously (or maybe not) as you want your holdings to grow, don't you?

If I had $100,000,000 using my model portfolio I would end up with about 10x the gains or about $150,000 and with about 250 business days in a year that would be... about $700/day on average gain

So, a decent long term trader with $1 million in their account could do that on an average year.... but you have not stated what that mythical person's account balance is to start with before considering your options.

I don't trade options...I do do future's contracts...So I have no idea of the profitability of such trades. I know that they are leveraged...bigger gains...bigger losses? I have certainly heard the woes on this site about blowing accounts.

I have shown you what a long term trader in stocks needs to be able to make that $500 - $1000/day average. I wonder how much initial poke you need to make that kind of coin doing options/futures or forex. Something tells me that consistently making $500 - $1000/day involves a pretty healthy risk compared to what I am familiar with. But I am ignorant of such trades so I am just guessing.

Stock day traders, would have a heck of a time making $500 - $1000 per day....they would have to be extremely skilled since most of them to believe 2-5% /day is good money and they certainly are not doing this part time. Just researching and finding the suitable trades would take a good chunk of the day...then making the trades themselves and following them to completion...requires constant vigilance. Do Skilled Day traders do this...yep I think they can but they would be all-in every day with about $30,000 to $50,000 and I haven't met a day trader yet that has a winning day every day...and newbies to this trade lose all of their money in one year 90% of the time according to Stats. Also...I would imagine it would be pretty hard to day trade $500,000 to $1,000,000...the pressures would be enormous and you don't get the leverage (unless you are silly enough to use margin)

So unless you are a skilled long term trader with an account balance of about $1,000,000 fully traded I don't think you could average $500 - $1000 part-time


I am saying this without knowing the amount of money needed to get this kind of gain in forex/options/futures and do it part time....maybe someone could comment on the reality of such part time gains in these areas of trading.

Thanks for your post!

I just wanted to comment on your 500K-1MIL day trading comment. I absolutely believe a well versed and experienced trader can trade well in the millions Intra day. Proper diversification and strategy implementation would allow for more capital to be funneled into your trading.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #38 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


Limitless100 View Post
Thanks for your post!

I just wanted to comment on your 500K-1MIL day trading comment. I absolutely believe a well versed and experienced trader can trade well in the millions Intra day. Proper diversification and strategy implementation would allow for more capital to be funneled into your trading.

But....could he get to that point in his holdings (an account of $500,000 to $1,000,000)....doing it part time....I don't think so...He would have so many balls juggling in the air at $1million that He could not afford to take his eyes off of any of them.

I don't doubt that there are such traders but I venture in all day traders in North America you would count the number of them that are doing this on the fingers of 2 hands maximum.....it is definitely not the skill of of someone with 6 months experience.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #39 (permalink)
New York, New York
 
 
Posts: 97 since May 2014
Thanks: 163 given, 61 received


Underexposed View Post
But....could he get to that point in his holdings (an account of $500,000 to $1,000,000)....doing it part time....I don't think so...He would have so many balls juggling in the air at $1million that He could not afford to take his eyes off of any of them.

I don't doubt that there are such traders but I venture in all day traders in North America you would count the number of them that are doing this on the fingers of 2 hands maximum.....it is definitely not the skill of of someone with 6 months experience.

No, I was not referencing someone who is doing this part time, simply pointing out it is definitely done.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #40 (permalink)
London + UK
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Proprietary Analytics
Broker: Multiple broker + Multiple feed
Trading: Currently European and US equities
 
sands's Avatar
 
Posts: 443 since Dec 2013
Thanks: 256 given, 228 received

Just reading this thread reminds me how fine a line there is between trading/investing and gambling. Targets should be left until you have learnt enough to be consistent. Once comes consistency of approach and execution of your plan money will come naturally. For me first comes crawling, then walking, then running. Seems a lot of folks new to the industry want to fly before they can crawl. Jumping off a cliff the illusion of flight comes for a few secs but then comes the splat. Not a criticism of anyone, just a word of friendly caution for those who may be new to this world reading this thread.

Thanks

Sands.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to sands for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #41 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


Limitless100 View Post
No, I was not referencing someone who is doing this part time, simply pointing out it is definitely done.

I guess a lot of the problem is that people do not define problems/questions very well so they are open to interpretation. Even this part time definition...is trading every day part time? What defines part time, 2 hours/day part time? 4 hours? 6 hours?

I don't know about options/futures but I do know about stocks...long term/swing trade and intra-day.

You can easily plan a long term investment or even a swing trade lasting several weeks on the weekend and place your order on the Monday and other than checking in after work to see if your order filled or not you would not even have to look at the market during the working day. You could do so in the evening as well.

But a day trade....that is done in the heat of the action...doing a good daytrade requires knowledge of which company to play today and watching it closely to buy in and exit. But you cannot say when it will happen.

I can see little problem day trading say up to $10,000 on one stock....but the more money you gain the more difficult it becomes. You think you are going to try to play $100,000 on a single company's stock...you would have to have liquidity of 10's of millions of shares traded in that company or you will not get your order processed in a heartbeat....your order would be spread over a range at a market order or on a limit order probably only partially filled....then you go through the same agony when you try to sell it.....so ok, you will do 10 plays at $10,000 per.

researching good intra-day plays become more and more difficult the more money you have.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #42 (permalink)
Melbourne FL, USA
 
 
Posts: 117 since Jul 2014
Thanks: 11 given, 49 received

Speaking only for myself, and not being very experienced as of yet. my largest single plays so far have been in the 7000 dollar range. My total trading fund is about 10K divided between 2 separate accounts.

I consider a 10K value transaction to be reasonable and believe it will usually get filled very quickly.

That is, unless you're playing with penny stocks, in which case the share quantities may be hard to move in a single block and in a timely fashion.

But 100 shares of anything at 100 bucks each should process instantly. I think any quantity of 1000 shares of any stock should be processed virtually instantly. Except for BRKA, that is...


When I get to the point where I can do it, I expect to do most of my trades in values of 10K or more.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Carrerain4 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #43 (permalink)
New York, New York
 
 
Posts: 97 since May 2014
Thanks: 163 given, 61 received


Underexposed View Post
I guess a lot of the problem is that people do not define problems/questions very well so they are open to interpretation. Even this part time definition...is trading every day part time? What defines part time, 2 hours/day part time? 4 hours? 6 hours?

I agree with this. Part time can mean so many things.


Quoting 
I don't know about options/futures but I do know about stocks...long term/swing trade and intra-day.

You can easily plan a long term investment or even a swing trade lasting several weeks on the weekend and place your order on the Monday and other than checking in after work to see if your order filled or not you would not even have to look at the market during the working day. You could do so in the evening as well.

But a day trade....that is done in the heat of the action...doing a good daytrade requires knowledge of which company to play today and watching it closely to buy in and exit. But you cannot say when it will happen.

I can see little problem day trading say up to $10,000 on one stock....but the more money you gain the more difficult it becomes. You think you are going to try to play $100,000 on a single company's stock...you would have to have liquidity of 10's of millions of shares traded in that company or you will not get your order processed in a heartbeat....your order would be spread over a range at a market order or on a limit order probably only partially filled....then you go through the same agony when you try to sell it.....so ok, you will do 10 plays at $10,000 per.

I disagree with the lower paragraph. Moving 100K into a stock at lets say, $50 per share price, would be a mere 2000 shares. That is not a large order by any means. Also, if you were managing a 7 or 8 figure portfolio, it is very possible your strategy does not entail going 100% all in on a stock in one order.


Quoting 
researching good intra-day plays become more and more difficult the more money you have.


Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Limitless100 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #44 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


Limitless100 View Post
I agree with this. Part time can mean so many things.


I disagree with the lower paragraph. Moving 100K into a stock at lets say, $50 per share price, would be a mere 2000 shares. That is not a large order by any means. Also, if you were managing a 7 or 8 figure portfolio, it is very possible your strategy does not entail going 100% all in on a stock in one order.

Ok...point taken...but tell me....how many opportunities are there at the $50 level compared to a stock at $10 level?

Again I am speaking from ignorance on the subject, but my gut feeling is that by raising the share price of a stock for a target for day trading...the number of suitable opportunities are an order of magnitude less for daytrading.

I might be wrong but for me this seems obvious....Also risking $100k on one daytrade to me requires a lot of skill to find and execute such a trade...that can turn in a heartbeat on you...especially if it is a volatile turn that can fall through a stop loss or even a limit stop loss. The losses would kill a lot of gains.

I doubt that anyone risks 7 figures on a single daytrade...where would you find the liquidity in a stock that you could be confident to enter/exit easily.

I should shut up about day trades as I don't do it myself...my experience has been only anecdotal based on my observations of people doing this kind of trading on other websites and shaking my head at their approach. I have not had the pleasure of discussing the matter with a successful daytrader wagering $100k per throw.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #45 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Swing Trader
Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Trading: Emini Futures
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 49,780 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 32,308 given, 97,567 received

I've posted statistics broken down by sector, closing price, and market cap in the main homework thread.



Mike

We're here to help -- just ask

For the best trading education, watch our webinars
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list

Follow us on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook

Support our community as an Elite Member:
https://futures.io/elite/
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #46 (permalink)
New York, New York
 
 
Posts: 97 since May 2014
Thanks: 163 given, 61 received


Underexposed View Post
Ok...point taken...but tell me....how many opportunities are there at the $50 level compared to a stock at $10 level?

Again I am speaking from ignorance on the subject, but my gut feeling is that by raising the share price of a stock for a target for day trading...the number of suitable opportunities are an order of magnitude less for daytrading.

I might be wrong but for me this seems obvious....Also risking $100k on one daytrade to me requires a lot of skill to find and execute such a trade...that can turn in a heartbeat on you...especially if it is a volatile turn that can fall through a stop loss or even a limit stop loss. The losses would kill a lot of gains.

I doubt that anyone risks 7 figures on a single daytrade...where would you find the liquidity in a stock that you could be confident to enter/exit easily.

I should shut up about day trades as I don't do it myself...my experience has been only anecdotal based on my observations of people doing this kind of trading on other websites and shaking my head at their approach. I have not had the pleasure of discussing the matter with a successful daytrader wagering $100k per throw.

I understand where you are coming from.

I'm not quite sure how you came to that hypothesis. Are you sure your not thinking of a more parity based style of trading? Something such that you are providing liquidity on both sides of the market profiting from a penny spread or such. Also, a "day trade" doesn't have to be something that is sub second. By definition a intra-day trade can be anything that opens/closes within the same day, that could be hours. Similarly, there are top managers that risk billions on trades that are also of a short time frame, so $100K on an intraday trade isn't anything crazy at all. There are stocks that provide enough liquidity that you could probably pick up $100K worth of stock instantly. Also, not that you are interested, but if you were to look at either one minute charts or tick charts, you could find various stocks that trade ten's of millions of dollars within a 1 minute time frame. There are a few guys on something as public as youtube that shows individual traders moving 6 figures worth of stock on single or dual trades.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Limitless100 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #47 (permalink)
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
 
Posts: 934 since Feb 2014


Limitless100 View Post
I understand where you are coming from.

I'm not quite sure how you came to that hypothesis. Are you sure your not thinking of a more parity based style of trading? Something such that you are providing liquidity on both sides of the market profiting from a penny spread or such. Also, a "day trade" doesn't have to be something that is sub second. By definition a intra-day trade can be anything that opens/closes within the same day, that could be hours. Similarly, there are top managers that risk billions on trades that are also of a short time frame, so $100K on an intraday trade isn't anything crazy at all. There are stocks that provide enough liquidity that you could probably pick up $100K worth of stock instantly. Also, not that you are interested, but if you were to look at either one minute charts or tick charts, you could find various stocks that trade ten's of millions of dollars within a 1 minute time frame. There are a few guys on something as public as youtube that shows individual traders moving 6 figures worth of stock on single or dual trades.

this is kind of an escalation don't you think....

You are not setting a real scenario IMHO....we are talking about a person (even though it is a fantasy question) who is wondering about getting into the stock market full time giving up their job.....not a multi million or more like billion dollar group shaving points in seconds.

I don't doubt there are people that do this....BUT to quote the original premise of this thread


Quoting 
If you are averaging $500- 1000 per day from part time trading and you had been achieving this for the past 6 months.

I understand that intra-day means All DAY but this scenario is not part time. And I know few day traders that have the skills to hold onto a single trade that long....most of their trades last 30 mins to an hour to net 2-5% usually

Name me one common stock that trades ten's of millions of dollars per minute that ordinary part-time traders have access to????

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #48 (permalink)
New York, New York
 
 
Posts: 97 since May 2014
Thanks: 163 given, 61 received


Underexposed View Post
this is kind of an escalation don't you think....

You are not setting a real scenario IMHO....we are talking about a person (even though it is a fantasy question) who is wondering about getting into the stock market full time giving up their job.....not a multi million or more like billion dollar group shaving points in seconds.

I don't doubt there are people that do this....BUT to quote the original premise of this thread



I understand that intra-day means All DAY but this scenario is not part time. And I know few day traders that have the skills to hold onto a single trade that long....most of their trades last 30 mins to an hour to net 2-5% usually

Name me one common stock that trades ten's of millions of dollars per minute that ordinary part-time traders have access to????

I think our issue is that you are speaking for a part-time reference (the subject of this thread). While I, am speaking as a generalization of full time traders. What I am referencing would NOT be very logical for part time. I was more speaking directly to you in reference to your original comment opposed to the posters original post, I apologize.

Also, in regards to your last line, I would very much like for the original poster to define his "part-time"

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Limitless100 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #49 (permalink)
Bratislava/ Slovakia
 
 
Posts: 2 since Aug 2014
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received

I became full time when I earn a enough to buy some houses to rent which carrying passive income a I have only focused on trading.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Jesse14 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #50 (permalink)
Luxembourg, Luxembourg
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TWS
Broker: Interactive Brokers
Trading: Stocks
 
Posts: 491 since May 2012
Thanks: 1,641 given, 1,149 received


Jesse14 View Post
I became full time when I earn a enough to buy some houses to rent which carrying passive income a I have only focused on trading.

That is probably the best way to go about it. Just makes it a lot easier when bills are taken care of and don't need to be paid from trading profits.

The sable coat in Reminiscences of a Stock Operator is a good example of just how the need to create money can cause unnecessary losses.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to grausch for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #51 (permalink)
Los Angeles, CA
 
 
Posts: 68 since Dec 2011
Thanks: 55 given, 31 received


Big Mike View Post
I used to think this way. But then when I put it into practice, I quickly realized I am not a robot. I am a discretionary trader. Yes, yes, for all the automation guys out there. But I am a discretionary trader. So to answer your question as to why if you are doing 1k a day why not make it 10k, the answer is simple: psychology. More risk alters your decision making capabilities.

I continue to trade bigger over time, but it's not just a matter of adding some zeros to the end of my lot size and pressing "go".

Mike

Hey Mike

Without hopefully being too personal of a question, can you elaborate or share your progress with respect to increasing your trading size?

Was it a two steps forward, one step back? How long did it take you to progress from one lot to the next unit size where you felt an identical or similar degree of comfortability, if that makes sense.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to JTurner77 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #52 (permalink)
hong kong
 
 
Posts: 12 since Nov 2014
Thanks: 0 given, 2 received

$10k to $20k a month is a lot of money, you should make trading your main profession, and consider your day job to be a hobby

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to hs1130 for this post:


futures io Trading Community Psychology and Money Management > $500-1000 per day from part time trading


Last Updated on November 4, 2014


Upcoming Webinars and Events
 

NinjaTrader Indicator Challenge!

Ongoing
 

Battlestations! Show us your trading desk - $1,500 in prizes!

March
 

Importance of Finding Your Own Way w/Adam Grimes

Elite only
 

Journal Challenge w/Jigsaw

April
     



Copyright © 2021 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts