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Auto trading is only thing that conquered my darkside


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Auto trading is only thing that conquered my darkside

  #11 (permalink)
 
monpere's Avatar
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
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liquidcci View Post
Trading based on feeling or how the market looks will eventually drain your account. You will have some great highs and exhilaration followed by the lowest lows of your life. It is amazing watching my bot take trades. It often gets in a trade and I am convinced that trade will be stopped based on feeling or what I perceive the market to wants to do and it will end up being a winner. Likewise what I often think looks like a sure winner often ends up losing. So I just learned let the bot follow my rules.

Auto trading is only as good as the rules you set up. I could trade my system manually and profit if I followed my rules perfectly. Problem is I am imperfect and can't consistently follow my rules. So the bot removes me a few degrees from the market so my emotions are left out and probabilities are allowed to work.

I think there is a psychological advantage as well with system trading. And, the system does not necessarily have to be automated, it can be a strict mechanical set of rules that you follow an execute manually. The psychological advantage is the degree of separation of the person to the system. That makes it easier for you to take losses, because when a losing trade occurs, then the system failed, not the trader. When you are a discretionary trader, every losing trade is directly attributed to your bad discretion, your bad decision. Subconsciously, that loser accumulates in your psychological bank. Like it or not that takes a toll on any human being.

Discretionary traders need to get to the point where a trade, is a trade, is a trade, win or lose. That is contrary to normal human behavior, and it is not easy to get to that stage because we have been naturally programmed to think losing is bad, since down to our most basic instincts, our natural survival is based on winning. If a winning trade makes you feel good, a losing trade makes you feel bad, and 2 losing trades makes you feel worst, then you are not psychologically ready to trade live.

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  #12 (permalink)
 
liquidcci's Avatar
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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monpere View Post
I think there is a psychological advantage as well with system trading. And, the system does not necessarily have to be automated, it can be a strict mechanical set of rules that you follow an execute manually. The psychological advantage is the degree of separation of the person to the system. That makes it easier for you to take losses, because when a losing trade occurs, then the system failed, not the trader. When you are a discretionary trader, every losing trade is directly attributed to your bad discretion, your bad decision. Subconsciously, that loser accumulates in your psychological bank. Like it or not that takes a toll on any human being.

Discretionary traders need to get to the point where a trade, is a trade, is a trade, win or lose. That is contrary to normal human behavior, and it is not easy to get to that stage. If a winning trade makes you feel good, and a losing trade makes you feel bad, then you are not psychologically ready to trade live.

monpere I agree 100%. I think the key is system trading. If someone can execute rules of system perfectly a bot is not a necessity. I know a few guys who system trade without a bot and can follow rules perfectly. I was not able to emotionally do so thus I went to bot trading. If system has a losing trade does not bother me like if I was trying to trade with my own discretion. The system has a certain number of losing trades that I expect. So when it takes a loss it is the system taking a loss and does not pull me down emotionally. Same for wins when following system win does not give me sense of exhilaration.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #13 (permalink)
 
rpm123's Avatar
 rpm123 
Green Bay WI
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Broker: AMP/CQG
Trading: 6E
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liquidcci View Post
Trading based on feeling or how the market looks will eventually drain your account. You will have some great highs and exhilaration followed by the lowest lows of your life. It is amazing watching my bot take trades. It often gets in a trade and I am convinced that trade will be stopped based on feeling or what I perceive the market to wants to do and it will end up being a winner. Likewise what I often think looks like a sure winner often ends up losing. So I just learned let the bot follow my rules.

Auto trading is only as good as the rules you set up. I could trade my system manually and profit if I followed my rules perfectly. Problem is I am imperfect and can't consistently follow my rules. So the bot removes me a few degrees from the market so my emotions are left out and probabilities are allowed to work.

I know what you mean about the dark side and discretionary. The easier my rules now, the easier to follow. But I am following @NJAMC 's thread to see how he builds a bot. And maybe start watchful bot trading after refining the strategy.

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  #14 (permalink)
 
liquidcci's Avatar
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: ninjatrader, r-trader
Trading: NQ, CL
Posts: 866 since Jun 2011
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Big Mike View Post
Consider crafting and posting some of your strategies here:

Battle of the Bots

Mike


Mike I will take a look. By the way great forum you run here. I have run a few forums for individual stocks in my lifetime and it is not an easy task. You have built a very useful respectful place which I highly appreciate compared to many other trading forums that I have seen.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #15 (permalink)
 
Ducman's Avatar
 Ducman 
The Netherlands
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker: NINJATRADER Brokerage / Continuum
Trading: CL
Posts: 473 since Nov 2010
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liquidcci,

Another autotrader fan here. Developing my system 'Myst' over the last couple of months and just started running it live. I have encountered some differences between forward sim account trading and live account trading. Maybe you can share some of your experience with us. I'm running the FDAX with a 6 BetterRenko and what I notice is that there are quite some difference between what I see in NT and what I get on my account. I know about market dynamic and slippage but I would like to visualize.

Q1. Is there a possibility to see the real trades that have been executed at my broker next to what has been submitted by NinjaTrader? I can only find info the latter (trades, log file, etc.). In the help I find things about position sync but that's another subject.

Q2. Are you prepared to share your system with us for learning purposes?

Thanks,

Ducman

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  #16 (permalink)
 
liquidcci's Avatar
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: ninjatrader, r-trader
Trading: NQ, CL
Posts: 866 since Jun 2011
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Ducman View Post
liquidcci,

Another autotrader fan here. Developing my system 'Myst' over the last couple of months and just started running it live. I have encountered some differences between forward sim account trading and live account trading. Maybe you can share some of your experience with us. I'm running the FDAX with a 6 BetterRenko and what I notice is that there are quite some difference between what I see in NT and what I get on my account. I know about market dynamic and slippage but I would like to visualize.

Q1. Is there a possibility to see the real trades that have been executed at my broker next to what has been submitted by NinjaTrader? I can only find info the latter (trades, log file, etc.). In the help I find things about position sync but that's another subject.


Q2. Are you prepared to share your system with us for learning purposes?


Thanks,

Ducman


Q1. Is there a possibility to see the real trades that have been executed at my broker next to what has been submitted by NinjaTrader? I can only find info the latter (trades, log file, etc.). In the help I find things about position sync but that's another subject.

In NT you can pull all your trades out in account performance and setup spreadsheets to compare with your sim stuff.

Q2. Are you prepared to share your system with us for learning purposes?

I like to help out other traders where I can but my system took 2 years to develop and test as well as alot of money spent on having it coded so it's not something I share. I also am ramping up my contracts via fixed ratio method so I don't want my entries to get to crowded. Sorry can't help more in this area.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #17 (permalink)
 
Ducman's Avatar
 Ducman 
The Netherlands
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker: NINJATRADER Brokerage / Continuum
Trading: CL
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liquidcci View Post
In NT you can pull all your trades out in account performance and setup spreadsheets to compare with your sim stuff.

I know how to export but these trades seem not the ones that really happened. At least the Account P&L does not align with the points won or lost.


liquidcci View Post
I like to help out other traders where I can but my system took 2 years to develop and test as well as alot of money spent on having it coded so it's not something I share. I also am ramping up my contracts via fixed ratio method so I don't want my entries to get to crowded. Sorry can't help more in this area.

Understand

Ducman

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  #18 (permalink)
 
Massive l's Avatar
 Massive l 
OR/USA
Legendary /NQ Trader
 
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Can you post a screen shot of the weekly P/L your bot is producing?

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  #19 (permalink)
 
liquidcci's Avatar
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
Experience: Master
Platform: ninjatrader, r-trader
Trading: NQ, CL
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Massive l View Post
Can you post a screen shot of the weekly P/L your bot is producing?


Massive why would it be helpful? I am not here to sell my system there are probably better on this board. I started this thread just to say I was an idiot for years but finally figured out what I needed to do a few years back.

My system averages around 900 to 1100 ticks per contract a year on CL and has a very low draw down. This has been for last 2 years and could change as all traders know to well. I use defined stops and defined targets with no break even. My system only takes around 100 to 150 trades per year. Before I developed a system I lost almost every year.

I will say a little profit can produce alot of gain if you have low draw downs and use good money management to ramp your contracts up. I use fixed ratio to do this but you need a good understanding of your draw downs. I always focus on draw downs before focusing on profits. You have to learn to stay alive before you can prosper.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #20 (permalink)
 
Massive l's Avatar
 Massive l 
OR/USA
Legendary /NQ Trader
 
Experience: None
Posts: 2,129 since Mar 2011
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Thanks Received: 5,106


It would be helpful because then we can hear and see the difference in your trading.
A picture speaks a thousand words.

If you have a successful bot, then let's see what its got Please.

One of my favorite online traders had no problem starting a thread on another board
to put his skill on display when asked the same question.

He posted screenshots for a year with amazing consistency. He is a directional, discretionary /CL trader.

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