Auto trading is only thing that conquered my darkside - Psychology and Money Management | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Auto trading is only thing that conquered my darkside
Updated: Views / Replies:32,398 / 358
Created: by liquidcci Attachments:18

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 18  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Auto trading is only thing that conquered my darkside

  #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
Bala, PA, USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus, IB
Favorite Futures: SPY, Oil, Euro
 
monpere's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,858 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 300 given, 3,276 received


liquidcci View Post
Trading based on feeling or how the market looks will eventually drain your account. You will have some great highs and exhilaration followed by the lowest lows of your life. It is amazing watching my bot take trades. It often gets in a trade and I am convinced that trade will be stopped based on feeling or what I perceive the market to wants to do and it will end up being a winner. Likewise what I often think looks like a sure winner often ends up losing. So I just learned let the bot follow my rules.

Auto trading is only as good as the rules you set up. I could trade my system manually and profit if I followed my rules perfectly. Problem is I am imperfect and can't consistently follow my rules. So the bot removes me a few degrees from the market so my emotions are left out and probabilities are allowed to work.

I think there is a psychological advantage as well with system trading. And, the system does not necessarily have to be automated, it can be a strict mechanical set of rules that you follow an execute manually. The psychological advantage is the degree of separation of the person to the system. That makes it easier for you to take losses, because when a losing trade occurs, then the system failed, not the trader. When you are a discretionary trader, every losing trade is directly attributed to your bad discretion, your bad decision. Subconsciously, that loser accumulates in your psychological bank. Like it or not that takes a toll on any human being.

Discretionary traders need to get to the point where a trade, is a trade, is a trade, win or lose. That is contrary to normal human behavior, and it is not easy to get to that stage because we have been naturally programmed to think losing is bad, since down to our most basic instincts, our natural survival is based on winning. If a winning trade makes you feel good, a losing trade makes you feel bad, and 2 losing trades makes you feel worst, then you are not psychologically ready to trade live.

Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to monpere for this post:
 
  #12 (permalink)
Elite Member
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: ninjatrader, r-trader
Favorite Futures: CL, NG, TF, NQ, YM, GC, ES
 
liquidcci's Avatar
 
Posts: 862 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 609 given, 1,051 received


monpere View Post
I think there is a psychological advantage as well with system trading. And, the system does not necessarily have to be automated, it can be a strict mechanical set of rules that you follow an execute manually. The psychological advantage is the degree of separation of the person to the system. That makes it easier for you to take losses, because when a losing trade occurs, then the system failed, not the trader. When you are a discretionary trader, every losing trade is directly attributed to your bad discretion, your bad decision. Subconsciously, that loser accumulates in your psychological bank. Like it or not that takes a toll on any human being.

Discretionary traders need to get to the point where a trade, is a trade, is a trade, win or lose. That is contrary to normal human behavior, and it is not easy to get to that stage. If a winning trade makes you feel good, and a losing trade makes you feel bad, then you are not psychologically ready to trade live.

monpere I agree 100%. I think the key is system trading. If someone can execute rules of system perfectly a bot is not a necessity. I know a few guys who system trade without a bot and can follow rules perfectly. I was not able to emotionally do so thus I went to bot trading. If system has a losing trade does not bother me like if I was trying to trade with my own discretion. The system has a certain number of losing trades that I expect. So when it takes a loss it is the system taking a loss and does not pull me down emotionally. Same for wins when following system win does not give me sense of exhilaration.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
Reply With Quote
 
  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
Green Bay WI
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG
Favorite Futures: 6E
 
rpm123's Avatar
 
Posts: 321 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 337 given, 465 received



liquidcci View Post
Trading based on feeling or how the market looks will eventually drain your account. You will have some great highs and exhilaration followed by the lowest lows of your life. It is amazing watching my bot take trades. It often gets in a trade and I am convinced that trade will be stopped based on feeling or what I perceive the market to wants to do and it will end up being a winner. Likewise what I often think looks like a sure winner often ends up losing. So I just learned let the bot follow my rules.

Auto trading is only as good as the rules you set up. I could trade my system manually and profit if I followed my rules perfectly. Problem is I am imperfect and can't consistently follow my rules. So the bot removes me a few degrees from the market so my emotions are left out and probabilities are allowed to work.

I know what you mean about the dark side and discretionary. The easier my rules now, the easier to follow. But I am following @NJAMC 's thread to see how he builds a bot. And maybe start watchful bot trading after refining the strategy.

Reply With Quote
 
  #14 (permalink)
Elite Member
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: ninjatrader, r-trader
Favorite Futures: CL, NG, TF, NQ, YM, GC, ES
 
liquidcci's Avatar
 
Posts: 862 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 609 given, 1,051 received


Big Mike View Post
Consider crafting and posting some of your strategies here:

Battle of the Bots

Mike


Mike I will take a look. By the way great forum you run here. I have run a few forums for individual stocks in my lifetime and it is not an easy task. You have built a very useful respectful place which I highly appreciate compared to many other trading forums that I have seen.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to liquidcci for this post:
 
  #15 (permalink)
Elite Member
The Netherlands
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: NINJATRADER Brokerage / Continumm
Favorite Futures: CL, FDAX
 
Ducman's Avatar
 
Posts: 458 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 398 given, 623 received

liquidcci,

Another autotrader fan here. Developing my system 'Myst' over the last couple of months and just started running it live. I have encountered some differences between forward sim account trading and live account trading. Maybe you can share some of your experience with us. I'm running the FDAX with a 6 BetterRenko and what I notice is that there are quite some difference between what I see in NT and what I get on my account. I know about market dynamic and slippage but I would like to visualize.

Q1. Is there a possibility to see the real trades that have been executed at my broker next to what has been submitted by NinjaTrader? I can only find info the latter (trades, log file, etc.). In the help I find things about position sync but that's another subject.

Q2. Are you prepared to share your system with us for learning purposes?

Thanks,

Ducman

Reply With Quote
 
  #16 (permalink)
Elite Member
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: ninjatrader, r-trader
Favorite Futures: CL, NG, TF, NQ, YM, GC, ES
 
liquidcci's Avatar
 
Posts: 862 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 609 given, 1,051 received


Ducman View Post
liquidcci,

Another autotrader fan here. Developing my system 'Myst' over the last couple of months and just started running it live. I have encountered some differences between forward sim account trading and live account trading. Maybe you can share some of your experience with us. I'm running the FDAX with a 6 BetterRenko and what I notice is that there are quite some difference between what I see in NT and what I get on my account. I know about market dynamic and slippage but I would like to visualize.

Q1. Is there a possibility to see the real trades that have been executed at my broker next to what has been submitted by NinjaTrader? I can only find info the latter (trades, log file, etc.). In the help I find things about position sync but that's another subject.


Q2. Are you prepared to share your system with us for learning purposes?


Thanks,

Ducman


Q1. Is there a possibility to see the real trades that have been executed at my broker next to what has been submitted by NinjaTrader? I can only find info the latter (trades, log file, etc.). In the help I find things about position sync but that's another subject.

In NT you can pull all your trades out in account performance and setup spreadsheets to compare with your sim stuff.

Q2. Are you prepared to share your system with us for learning purposes?

I like to help out other traders where I can but my system took 2 years to develop and test as well as alot of money spent on having it coded so it's not something I share. I also am ramping up my contracts via fixed ratio method so I don't want my entries to get to crowded. Sorry can't help more in this area.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
Reply With Quote
 
  #17 (permalink)
Elite Member
The Netherlands
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: NINJATRADER Brokerage / Continumm
Favorite Futures: CL, FDAX
 
Ducman's Avatar
 
Posts: 458 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 398 given, 623 received


liquidcci View Post
In NT you can pull all your trades out in account performance and setup spreadsheets to compare with your sim stuff.

I know how to export but these trades seem not the ones that really happened. At least the Account P&L does not align with the points won or lost.


liquidcci View Post
I like to help out other traders where I can but my system took 2 years to develop and test as well as alot of money spent on having it coded so it's not something I share. I also am ramping up my contracts via fixed ratio method so I don't want my entries to get to crowded. Sorry can't help more in this area.

Understand

Ducman

Reply With Quote
 
  #18 (permalink)
Elite Member
Portland, OR
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: tos
Favorite Futures: NQ, SB, 6J, CL, GC
 
Massive l's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,458 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 922 given, 1,822 received

Can you post a screen shot of the weekly P/L your bot is producing?

Reply With Quote
 
  #19 (permalink)
Elite Member
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: ninjatrader, r-trader
Favorite Futures: CL, NG, TF, NQ, YM, GC, ES
 
liquidcci's Avatar
 
Posts: 862 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 609 given, 1,051 received


Massive l View Post
Can you post a screen shot of the weekly P/L your bot is producing?


Massive why would it be helpful? I am not here to sell my system there are probably better on this board. I started this thread just to say I was an idiot for years but finally figured out what I needed to do a few years back.

My system averages around 900 to 1100 ticks per contract a year on CL and has a very low draw down. This has been for last 2 years and could change as all traders know to well. I use defined stops and defined targets with no break even. My system only takes around 100 to 150 trades per year. Before I developed a system I lost almost every year.

I will say a little profit can produce alot of gain if you have low draw downs and use good money management to ramp your contracts up. I use fixed ratio to do this but you need a good understanding of your draw downs. I always focus on draw downs before focusing on profits. You have to learn to stay alive before you can prosper.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."

Last edited by liquidcci; June 9th, 2011 at 03:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
The following 10 users say Thank You to liquidcci for this post:
 
  #20 (permalink)
Elite Member
Portland, OR
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: tos
Favorite Futures: NQ, SB, 6J, CL, GC
 
Massive l's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,458 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 922 given, 1,822 received


It would be helpful because then we can hear and see the difference in your trading.
A picture speaks a thousand words.

If you have a successful bot, then let's see what its got Please.

One of my favorite online traders had no problem starting a thread on another board
to put his skill on display when asked the same question.

He posted screenshots for a year with amazing consistency. He is a directional, discretionary /CL trader.

Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > Auto trading is only thing that conquered my darkside

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Elite only

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

Jan 18

RandBots: TBA

Jan 23

GFF Brokers & CME Group: Futures & Bitcoin

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Auto-Trading with NinjaTrader 7 - For newbies NJAMC Elite Automated NinjaTrader Trading 203 June 9th, 2014 09:05 PM
Auto Trading in MC 6 beta 2 sam028 MultiCharts 8 March 8th, 2011 08:28 AM
es auto trading mxphytlx Elite Automated Trading 3 January 20th, 2011 02:25 PM
Star Wars: Something Something Darkside (Family Guy) Big Mike Off-Topic 4 November 28th, 2009 08:58 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:44 PM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-16 in 0.15 seconds with 20 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.145.16.43