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Auto trading is only thing that conquered my darkside
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Auto trading is only thing that conquered my darkside

  #91 (permalink)
Elite Member
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By the way, is there any support for asking Big Mike to create a forum called something like

"Automated systems and testing"

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  #92 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Xeno View Post
By the way, is there any support for asking Big Mike to create a forum called something like

"Automated systems and testing"

I would support that.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #93 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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Yeah good idea, i doubt anyone would be opposed to it. I think it would prevent many people from debating the legitimacy of automated systems. For one it would eliminate automated systems from entering other forums so discretionary traders aren't annoyed by it and it would eliminate automated system traders from being annoyed by pure discretionary systems in the discretionary section.

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  #94 (permalink)
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sidney7g View Post
Yeah good idea, i doubt anyone would be opposed to it. I think it would prevent many people from debating the legitimacy of automated systems. For one it would eliminate automated systems from entering other forums so discretionary traders aren't annoyed by it and it would eliminate automated system traders from being annoyed by pure discretionary systems in the discretionary section.

In the Elite Circle, there is the following group:

Elite Group Trading Methods: This forum is for Elite members only to collaborate openly on discretionary, mechanical and automated systems trading methods

Right now in the Elie Circle there is a thread: "Battle of the Bots, do you have what it takes to win?" where about 10 user submitted bots which have been running for the past couple of months to see which ones will perform best.

You should send a PM to Big Mike about adding a forum in the free section.

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  #95 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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In my experience of the forums over the years. Most of the people that try to write trading systems do so because they cannot trade.

I've been a programmer since I was 13 years old, that's 28 years. In all that time, I can't recall ever trying to code something I didn't actually know how to do. In the retail trading arena, this is exactly what most programmers try to so - automate something they don't know how to do manually.

This is often a cycle of coding an indicator based systemm then adding filters, exceptions and backtesting to a final 'solution'.

During this period, much is learnt about indicators, backtesting, programming languages etc. but still there is nothing of value learnt about actually trading.

On the other hand, the 'doomed' guy that understands market structure, understands traps, understands how their chosen markets work in REAL TIME on the right edge - well - these guys are learning every day and improving every day if they have what it takes.

Your programmer of EAs is actually looking for a way to shortcut the learning curve. I don't believe there is one. Furthermore, a lot of what programmers code is based on the presumption that there is any real relevance in technical analysis as preached in the thousands of trading books out there. So - not only do we have people trying to code something they can't do in real life, they are also making leaps of faith that there is relevance in the nonsense in most trading literature.

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  #96 (permalink)
Elite Member
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I disagree most people do not try to "write trading systems because they cannot trade". Most people write trading systems after they have found something that works manually and either want to automate it because a bot will follow rules exactly and/or they donít want to be tied to a chart all day looking for patterns. Writing a trading system takes an investment and very few will make that investment unless they have something that is proven. I think most traders who arrive at programming a bot have been around the market for some time and have had some success and some failures. They have also come to realization through experience there is a better way.

My system will work manually if its rules are followed exactly. But I would rather a bot follow my rules because as I stated in my OP I am flawed and overtime I will not follow my system exactly. Boredom, guessing the market, fear , greed will all cause me to make mistakes that my bot does not. I have seen guys follow rules exactly then have one day they go crazy busting an account in a day. Thus is the human condition and all it takes is one bad day and your wiped out.

Another real advantage of automating is I don't have to stare at a screen all day. I can be productive in other areas of my life. I am twice as productive because I can essentially do two things at once. Time is valuable and by letting a machine follow my rules I gain 8 hours to invest in other things. So even if I could follow my rules precisely with no mistakes I would still want a bot because it gives me one of the most valuable commodities in this world. Time.

Making a judgement that those who use automation don't know how to trade is preposterous at best. They know how but have found a better way free from the psychological traps of trading and a trading screen.




DionysusToast View Post
In my experience of the forums over the years. Most of the people that try to write trading systems do so because they cannot trade.

I've been a programmer since I was 13 years old, that's 28 years. In all that time, I can't recall ever trying to code something I didn't actually know how to do. In the retail trading arena, this is exactly what most programmers try to so - automate something they don't know how to do manually.

This is often a cycle of coding an indicator based systemm then adding filters, exceptions and backtesting to a final 'solution'.

During this period, much is learnt about indicators, backtesting, programming languages etc. but still there is nothing of value learnt about actually trading.

On the other hand, the 'doomed' guy that understands market structure, understands traps, understands how their chosen markets work in REAL TIME on the right edge - well - these guys are learning every day and improving every day if they have what it takes.

Your programmer of EAs is actually looking for a way to shortcut the learning curve. I don't believe there is one. Furthermore, a lot of what programmers code is based on the presumption that there is any real relevance in technical analysis as preached in the thousands of trading books out there. So - not only do we have people trying to code something they can't do in real life, they are also making leaps of faith that there is relevance in the nonsense in most trading literature.


"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #97 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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"Making a judgement that those who use automation don't know how to trade is preposterous at best. They know how but have found a better way free from the psychological traps of trading and a trading screen."

I am not making a judgement. It's an observation of a number of trading forums where people with some coding skills try to approach the markets as a finite problem with a finite solution. There's thousands of people on forums trying to get their PCs to trade because they can't.

Look around - it's out there.

Anyway - what you call a 'psychological trap' is simply an issue that you have personally. If you seriously have a finite ruleset that can be applied objectively and make money BUT you still can't follow those rules - well, that's a self-destructive trait YOU have. This does not mean everyone else has these issues.

As it is - you see trading as a problem that can be resolved and I see trading as a skill that can be developed.

You can put labels on me, say I have all sorts of issues, tell me I'll blow up one day but here's the thing. I'm engaged with the market and I'll develop with it. Your program, if it indeed exists, will not.

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  #98 (permalink)
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liquidcci View Post
Another real advantage of automating is I don't have to stare at a screen all day. I can be productive in other areas of my life. I am twice as productive because I can essentially do two things at once. Time is valuable and by letting a machine follow my rules I gain 8 hours to invest in other things. So even if I could follow my rules precisely with no mistakes I would still want a bot because it gives me one of the most valuable commodities in this world. Time.

I totally DISAGREE!!! I don't want an autotrading system because I want to be twice as productive. I want an autotrader because I want to be half as productive lying down on the beach all day!

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  #99 (permalink)
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DionysusToast View Post
"Making a judgement that those who use automation don't know how to trade is preposterous at best. They know how but have found a better way free from the psychological traps of trading and a trading screen."

I am not making a judgement. It's an observation of a number of trading forums where people with some coding skills try to approach the markets as a finite problem with a finite solution. There's thousands of people on forums trying to get their PCs to trade because they can't.

I will partly agree that coding skills are not enough. You must be a student of the markets to then understand how to code a system.



DionysusToast View Post
Anyway - what you call a 'psychological trap' is simply an issue that you have personally. If you seriously have a finite ruleset that can be applied objectively and make money BUT you still can't follow those rules - well, that's a self-destructive trait YOU have. This does not mean everyone else has these issues.

As it is - you see trading as a problem that can be resolved and I see trading as a skill that can be developed.

You can put labels on me, say I have all sorts of issues, tell me I'll blow up one day but here's the thing. I'm engaged with the market and I'll develop with it. Your program, if it indeed exists, will not.

I would say not all but most have same self destructive tendencies. Reality is even if you leave your rules for one day you can blow up an account. If someone does not think they have these tendencies they have not traded long enough. I am not saying they can't be controlled but is not easy.

Don't think because I have a system I am not engaged in the market and never make adjustments. I make adjustments to my system but based on hard stats over time. I also track patterns that could be profitable and if over time they prove themselves I add them to my system.

If you think you have the skill to beat the market by trying to read it from the hip yes you probably will blow up eventually. You are beat already you just don't know it yet. If you think it takes no skill to understand the market in such a way that you can build a system from that understanding then you do not understand what system/autotraders do.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #100 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
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DionysusToast View Post
"Making a judgement that those who use automation don't know how to trade is preposterous at best. They know how but have found a better way free from the psychological traps of trading and a trading screen."

I am not making a judgement. It's an observation of a number of trading forums where people with some coding skills try to approach the markets as a finite problem with a finite solution. There's thousands of people on forums trying to get their PCs to trade because they can't.

Look around - it's out there.

Anyway - what you call a 'psychological trap' is simply an issue that you have personally. If you seriously have a finite ruleset that can be applied objectively and make money BUT you still can't follow those rules - well, that's a self-destructive trait YOU have. This does not mean everyone else has these issues.

As it is - you see trading as a problem that can be resolved and I see trading as a skill that can be developed.

You can put labels on me, say I have all sorts of issues, tell me I'll blow up one day but here's the thing. I'm engaged with the market and I'll develop with it. Your program, if it indeed exists, will not.

Again, you have a totally distorted view of what effective auto trading entails.

I'm not programming to solve any problem other than the "human factor" or psychological issues.

I can develop a trading edge, just the same as you.

Like stated above, auto trading allows you to employ strategies that you could NEVER employ manually.

Tell me this. Do you think you could calculate a 3 term, parabolic trailing stop such that as your position profit grows, your trail shrinks exponentially. Additionally, do you think you could take that trailing stop and make it double tiered, such that it shrinks to a certain point then remains constant thereafter (all based on market action and ranges involved)? The answer is...no. Not on instruments as volitile and rapidly changing as CL.

Do you think your infalliable? Or would you rather sit and look at a screen for hours on end, just waiting for the right setup, only to miss it because you were fatigued or distracted etc. Even having an "alarm" that alerts you so you can manually execute your strategy is automation. It's employing your computer as a watchdog.

You COULD argue that if you can't employ a strategy manually, then you should change your strategy. And that's YOUR stance. To others, we use the tools available to solve problems (as you put it) and it opens up strategies that were otherwise unavailable.

You see computing as a crutch. I see it as a gateway to capabilities that's impossible to humans. Can you scale in and scale out on an instrument like CL or GC? And do it perfectly?

Anyone who's ever experienced "mouse lag" on a highly volitile instrument can attest that having a computer execute your strategy has huge benefits. No more having the market pass your stop because you couldn't click and move it fast enough. No more losing profit because the market spiked in your favor and you could replace your stop quick enough.

OR I guess you could just be ultra old school and claim those types of issues should remain out of reach.

I'll agree with you on one point however, I am using computing to solve the "problems" associated with manual trading.

I've been in your shoes. I've argued for days that someone shouldn't use a GPS until they've learned how to use a map. What if the GPS satellites are suddenly no longer available? What if your GPS takes a dump? It's a valid stance. However, I know how to use a map. No need to punch myself in the crotch every day and continue to bang my head against the wall when I can use a GPS and save time.

Your assumption that those of us who automate don't know how to trade is foolish. I know how to trade manually, I just choose to make it easier on myself.

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