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TradingTechnologies DOM patent and royalty licensing fees
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TradingTechnologies DOM patent and royalty licensing fees

  #1 (permalink)
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Moderator Note


This discussion was originally part of a different thread but has been moved here since it was getting off topic and deserved its own thread.

Moved range March 21 - April 4 2011 by Big Mike





atata View Post
The last stroke was about a week ago, when I've asked support to enable NT "Static DOM" for Mirus account and now I am unable to use "Dynamic DOM" for my IB account. I could use the static DOM however at an extra cost which I do not agree with - let say an extra 5c per round trip I wouldn't mind but 50c I find that unacceptable....

The cost is an extra 10 cents per side and NOT 50 cents for using the TT licensed static SuperDOM. There must have been a misunderstanding somewhere.


Last edited by Big Mike; April 4th, 2011 at 09:57 PM.
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  #2 (permalink)
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NinjaTrader View Post
The cost is an extra 10 cents per side and NOT 50 cents for using the TT licensed static SuperDOM. There must have been a misunderstanding somewhere.

Ninjatrader, you are absolutely correct and my apologies for my mistake. For anyone else the NT link is below for your reference:

NinjaTrader stock, futures and forex charting software and online trading platform. Trading Technologies MD Trader Patent Settlement.

Yet I do not understand why I should not be able to use Dynamic SuperDOM while static DOM is enabled...

Yet I also do not understand the policy, when I've requested from support to enable Static DOM for IB paper money testing I was told I'd still have to purchase the "credit" to be able to use static DOM. So IB /Interactive Broker/ is not charging anything extra /well you have to fund your account with IB's minimum requirement so it is not entirely free/ using their paper money system but NT would charge 20c per round-trip. Sorry, I found this is unacceptable.

For anyone paying an additional 20c per round-trip on trades generating income shall become a business decision besides the technicalities.
In my case I find it to steep to pay an additional ~10% over my commission for a functionality I can get somewhere else seemingly with no extra cost doing what I need.

Sometimes I've wondered if NT is really in the having happy longterm customers business???
NT as a product and as an organization last my trust and now I have no idea how that trust could be reinstated.

atata

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  #3 (permalink)
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atata View Post
Ninjatrader, you are absolutely correct and my apologies for my mistake. For anyone else the NT link is below for your reference:

NinjaTrader stock, futures and forex charting software and online trading platform. Trading Technologies MD Trader Patent Settlement.

Yet I do not understand why I should not be able to use Dynamic SuperDOM while static DOM is enabled...

Yet I also do not understand the policy, when I've requested from support to enable Static DOM for IB paper money testing I was told I'd still have to purchase the "credit" to be able to use static DOM. So IB /Interactive Broker/ is not charging anything extra /well you have to fund your account with IB's minimum requirement so it is not entirely free/ using their paper money system but NT would charge 20c per round-trip. Sorry, I found this is unacceptable.

For anyone paying an additional 20c per round-trip on trades generating income shall become a business decision besides the technicalities.
In my case I find it to steep to pay an additional ~10% over my commission for a functionality I can get somewhere else seemingly with no extra cost doing what I need.

Sometimes I've wondered if NT is really in the having happy longterm customers business???
NT as a product and as an organization last my trust and now I have no idea how that trust could be reinstated.

atata

In short Ė

- Our licensing agreement with TT states that any trade generated from our application when the static SupeDOM is enabled is liable for the patent fee thus you cannot use the dynamic SuperDOM and bypass the patent fee
- NinjaTrader does not differentiate between a brokerís live or demo system, in some cases we are unable to differentiate. Thus, the patent fees apply. However, we have our own built in simulator that bypasses this fee.
- Of course our goal is to have a happy long term customer base but of course, we canít please everyone.
- I do understand the nature of your requirement but unfortunately I canít accommodate you since I am legally bound to a licensing agreement I entered into nearly six years ago.

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  #4 (permalink)
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NinjaTrader View Post
In short Ė

- Our licensing agreement with TT states that any trade generated from our application when the static SupeDOM is enabled is liable for the patent fee thus you cannot use the dynamic SuperDOM and bypass the patent fee
- NinjaTrader does not differentiate between a brokerís live or demo system, in some cases we are unable to differentiate. Thus, the patent fees apply. However, we have our own built in simulator that bypasses this fee.
- Of course our goal is to have a happy long term customer base but of course, we canít please everyone.
- I do understand the nature of your requirement but unfortunately I canít accommodate you since I am legally bound to a licensing agreement I entered into nearly six years ago.

NinjaTrader my comments below:
"when the static SupeDOM is enabled is liable for the patent fee thus you cannot use the dynamic SuperDOM and bypass the patent fee" - your logic does not make any sense here...
I am coder or at least used to be one, therefore I know you can do anything with code what you want. It is always just a question of time and money, having said that the 2 DOMs shall not be exclusive if the code is smartly written, meaning static DOM being enabled does behave as you expect it such complains when no credit available, in the same time there is no good reason to disable the dynamic DOM.

"our goal is to have a happy long term customer base but of course, we canít please everyone." - partially agreed however if you read this thread through, your company has pissed off a lots of people who paid a good money for your product.
I am sure everyone who currently decided not to use NT at all or just for certain functions, has started with a lots of ambition, plans and took a while to get on the other side of the fence...

atata

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  #5 (permalink)
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hi

it's not a problem in the coding it's a problem in the deal NT made because of the patent with TT

I think that's what NT is trying to say

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  #6 (permalink)
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atata View Post
NinjaTrader my comments below:
"when the static SupeDOM is enabled is liable for the patent fee thus you cannot use the dynamic SuperDOM and bypass the patent fee" - your logic does not make any sense here...
I am coder or at least used to be one, therefore I know you can do anything with code what you want. It is always just a question of time and money, having said that the 2 DOMs shall not be exclusive if the code is smartly written, meaning static DOM being enabled does behave as you expect it such complains when no credit available, in the same time there is no good reason to disable the dynamic DOM.

You misunderstand what I am saying.

NinjaTrader entered into a licensing agreement with Trading Technologies. As part of their standard licensing terms, I have to charge 0.10 per side for any futures trade executed through any part of the NinjaTrader application when the static SuperDOM is enabled independent if it is used or not.

This is not a "coding" issue but a "licensing requirement".

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  #7 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
hi

it's not a problem in the coding it's a problem in the deal NT made because of the patent with TT

I think that's what NT is trying to say

Such a shame with a patent that was always pretty dubious imho. I can completely understand why ninja acquiesced, some much larger companies got embroiled in what I guess was expensive litigation.

It always struck me very like the Microsoft Apple look and feel lawsuits where A court ruled that, Apple could not get patent-like protection for the idea of a graphical user interface. Just as there was nothing new with a DOM there was nothing new in Apple & MS's operating systems (Xerox had done it all before). Seems to me a DOM is very much a Graphical User Interface.

I also seem to remember that TT pursued the exchanges at one point asking for a surcharge on every single transaction. Their argument being that as the exchange could not sure that any particular trade infringed there (dubious) patent they should extract a fee from all trades and pass it on just to be safe. (The threat was just to be safe from litigation of course).

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.

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  #8 (permalink)
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NickA View Post
Such a shame with a patent that was always pretty dubious imho. I can completely understand why ninja acquiesced, some much larger companies got embroiled in what I guess was expensive litigation.

It always struck me very like the Microsoft Apple look and feel lawsuits where A court ruled that, Apple could not get patent-like protection for the idea of a graphical user interface. Just as there was nothing new with a DOM there was nothing new in Apple & MS's operating systems (Xerox had done it all before). Seems to me a DOM is very much a Graphical User Interface.

I also seem to remember that TT pursued the exchanges at one point asking for a surcharge on every single transaction. Their argument being that as the exchange could not sure that any particular trade infringed there (dubious) patent they should extract a fee from all trades and pass it on just to be safe. (The threat was just to be safe from litigation of course).

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.

I don't know how TT was able to get away with this. I have always been personally outraged by that idea, it is downright extortion, and for that I will never use any TT product. If we all boycott them, then let's see how much their patent is worth.

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  #9 (permalink)
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Monpere, I have to disagree with you.

They invented the DOM.

How would you feel when you think and create something and then your competitor says: oh this is nice, let me program the same. That's not how Intellectual Copyright works in our Western world.

Copying everybody else ideas works in other countries but it's resulting in lack of innovation.

Last time we got something useful newly invented from China was 1500 years ago.

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  #10 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
Monpere, I have to disagree with you.

They invented the DOM.

How would you feel when you think and create something and then your competitor says: oh this is nice, let me program the same. That's not how Intellectual Copyright works in our Western world.

Copying everybody else ideas works in other countries but it's resulting in lack of innovation.

Last time we got something useful newly invented from China was 1500 years ago.

I understand that they are in business to make money, and have the right to profit for their original work, but I think the TT leadership have a predator mentality, trying to wield legal advantage to squeeze money out of every avenue they can think of. Going as far as trying to charge the exchanges just because the end user may or may not be using a static dom? That is not just capitalistic anymore, that is predatory. Who do you think is paying for all those fees they are charging? And, I think we can all agree that TT is not charging everybody and their brother because they want to foster innovation from their competitors, they just want to rape everybody.

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