TradingTechnologies DOM patent and royalty licensing fees - Platforms and Indicators | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


TradingTechnologies DOM patent and royalty licensing fees
Updated: Views / Replies:10,362 / 51
Created: by NinjaTrader Attachments:2

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 2  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

TradingTechnologies DOM patent and royalty licensing fees

  #21 (permalink)
Elite Member
Bala, PA, USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus, IB
Favorite Futures: SPY, Oil, Euro
 
monpere's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,858 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 300 given, 3,276 received


MetalTrade View Post
RM99, thanks for your replies but your metaphors are completely off the balance here.

TT created a concept of a depth of market screen that was unique in the world wide trading scene. It was so good they created in a short time an absolute market leader position in trade execution. I have read that around 60% of all manual transactions are made with X-trader. Yes, it's that good.

As a X-trader user again I agree there's just no better DOM than the x-trader DOM. I learned a trading technique that how strange it might sounds don't work good without x-trader since I need to see exactly how many contracts have been traded at the bid or the ask and I need to see approx. what my order position is in the que compared to other orders.

All trading software who contains a DOM is just a shameless COPY of the efforts, creativity and investments of Trading Technologies in creating something unique that works extremely well for traders.

While in many cases with intellectual property it's a bloody tin line, but in the case of the DOM it's clear IMHO that TT deserves every credit, right and money for their invention. Again, the metaphors used are just a joke compared to the shameless copy of the DOM from X-trader from any software in this industry.

Metaltrade, I think your position seems biased because you have a conflict of interest. You are defending an issue, or more specifically a product, because it makes you a livelyhood, and that livelyhood would be affected without it. My position on the TT issue is totally unbiased, I don't use X-Trader, I don't trade with a DOM, never have never will. If TT goes out of business today, and X-trader ceases to exist, it will not affect me one bit, so I have nothing to loose or gain from their success or failure. I just think the tactics that they use are unfair to smaller companies. If it were not for the prohibitive litigation costs, that patent would have already been history, and TT is milking that fact for all it is worth. I do agree with tort reform, If TT knew it would have to pay all court fees for every litigation threat, they would abandon this tactic, because they would be losing in court every time. You just can't subjectively litigate software ideas, the odds would be against them every time.

What if Ninjatrader (or whoever pioneered chart trader) said no one can use chart trader unless they pay, and I/RT said no one can implement market profile, or a volume breakdown type indicators unless they pay a fee, or eSignal says no one can use colors on their charts unless they pay? Who makes the decision that colors on a chart is not as innovative as vertical price levels on a DOM ladder? What if every company had the TT mentality, and they patented, and forced fees for every thing new they came up with? Where would the industry be? How would that foster progress and innovation? How much would we, as end users, be paying for each trade transaction?

TT tried to get the exchanges to pay a blanket fee, because maybe, just maybe, the trader putting in the order might be using a DOM... maybe! Are you kidding me? Are you seriously telling me you support that point of view?


Last edited by monpere; April 5th, 2011 at 10:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to monpere for this post:
 
  #22 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.velocityfutures.com 
Houston Texas USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: X_TRADER
 
Posts: 63 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 30 given, 42 received


NinjaTrader View Post
In short Ė

- Our licensing agreement with TT states that any trade generated from our application when the static SupeDOM is enabled is liable for the patent fee thus you cannot use the dynamic SuperDOM and bypass the patent fee
- NinjaTrader does not differentiate between a brokerís live or demo system, in some cases we are unable to differentiate. Thus, the patent fees apply. However, we have our own built in simulator that bypasses this fee.
- Of course our goal is to have a happy long term customer base but of course, we canít please everyone.
- I do understand the nature of your requirement but unfortunately I canít accommodate you since I am legally bound to a licensing agreement I entered into nearly six years ago.

Is it not possible to have a TT fed version with only the dynamic DOM?

If you have any questions about our services at Velocity Futures please send me a private message.
Reply With Quote
 
  #23 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 128 given, 703 received



MetalTrade View Post
RM99, thanks for your replies but your metaphors are completely off the balance here.

TT created a concept of a depth of market screen that was unique in the world wide trading scene. It was so good they created in a short time an absolute market leader position in trade execution. I have read that around 60% of all manual transactions are made with X-trader. Yes, it's that good.

As a X-trader user again I agree there's just no better DOM than the x-trader DOM. I learned a trading technique that how strange it might sounds don't work good without x-trader since I need to see exactly how many contracts have been traded at the bid or the ask and I need to see approx. what my order position is in the que compared to other orders.

All trading software who contains a DOM is just a shameless COPY of the efforts, creativity and investments of Trading Technologies in creating something unique that works extremely well for traders.

While in many cases with intellectual property it's a bloody tin line, but in the case of the DOM it's clear IMHO that TT deserves every credit, right and money for their invention. Again, the metaphors used are just a joke compared to the shameless copy of the DOM from X-trader from any software in this industry.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge capitalist and a libertarian, everyone tries to make a buck the best way they know how, that's healthy. I'm just saying there are practical business models and less practical models.

In the case of the recording artists, they had to adjust their business model. Bands like Metallica and others tried very hard to join in the fight against piracy....and the recording companies had to really scratch their heads to determine just how they were going to make money going forward. Hence you see the proliferation of digital media and Itunes and ala carte music purchases....so instead of trying to convince a customer to purchase a CD for $18 a pop (which cost them pennies to manufacture) they had to adjust to the reality of the situation.....now they make a good deal of money off people buying individual songs for a small price....MANY people would now rather pay a small fee for the legal right to own a song and the recording companies are making money off that again. The same concept is true for VEVO and Youtube..who make money off the advertising for streaming the music for free. (Pandora is another one that comes to mind).

I don't blame TT, I'd do the same thing if I were them.....I just think that if I came up with a great indicator, and everyone started using it (by crafting their own code) it would be a bit foolish for me to try to go after every guy who coded his own version of an idea that forged first.

There are some ideas and intellectual capital that are practical to patent and some that are less practical....that's all I'm saying.

The kid that started Groupon with his partner for example....would have a hard time convincing the high court that it was he and he alone that came up with the general concept for "group purchases." There are just some concepts that are nebulous and difficult to prove that they came up with the first and only original application. It'd be akin to trying to patent the use of the internet...look what it did for Al Gore....

If you want a more relevant example....I wonder if there's a patent on the trading matrix, or perhaps the use of the trailing stop, or the bracket order, or any other example of commonly used trading tools that most platforms incorporate. Patents are good and healthy for encouraging innovation, but at some point, you have to ask yourself just how practical it would be to try to patent "the login" concept and go after every software company that uses a login prompt.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to RM99 for this post:
 
  #24 (permalink)
Elite Member
Phoenix AZ USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: SierraChart
Broker/Data: TradePro/TransAct
Favorite Futures: NQ YM RTY
 
Posts: 295 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 125 given, 338 received

Ninja/TT agreement

Here is a doc explaining the agreement between Ninja and TT (biased to TT):

http://www.tradingtechnologies.com/news/050714_NinjaSettlement.pdf

Reply With Quote
 
  #25 (permalink)
Elite Member
arizona
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: rolling my own
Favorite Futures: ES,CL,GC,6E
 
GoldStandard's Avatar
 
Posts: 211 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 326 given, 188 received

The TT DOM patent doesnt really seem to pass the test of being non-obvious to me. There are only so many ways one could possibly display a series of numbers like order book numbers. Displaying the series vertically is patented by TT , horizontally is patented by CQG. What is left? Display the numbers diagonally?

I mean, does anyone really think that if TT hadn't 'invented' the DOM that no one else would have come up with a way for anyone to view order book data?

If you were to ask 10 ordinary interface designers who had never seen a DOM before to create a visual way to display orders in an order book, I'm pretty sure some of them would come up with something that looks like a DOM.

Also their patent doesnt seem to cover the entire concept of a DOM, it just covers a DOM that doesn't move; a 'static' DOM. Being able to patent the idea of something 'not moving' seems pretty silly to me.

Remember patents are not a natural right. They are created by the US Constitution to " To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

Did granting TT a monopoly on the DOM really promote the progress of science and useful arts? It seems to me that its doing the opposite.

Reply With Quote
 
  #26 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010
Thanks: 2,092 given, 595 received

hello

one remark about the copyright of indicators: demark

let's see how long this post last here, they have an extremely active googling laywer

Reply With Quote
 
  #27 (permalink)
Elite Member
Denver, CO
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, TOS
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 6 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 0 given, 0 received

I realize this thread is over a year old, but I just joined and came across this discussion -- and the one involving the supposed copying of indications by other sites. I wanted to poke around at the issue a bit and was curious if anyone here has actually looked at the patent. I'd like to see it myself to see what it claims. Anyone have the patent number?

Also, is it customary here to claim copyright in posted code? I am not yet an elite member, so I haven't been able to determine whether code posters have a copyright claim in posted code.

BigMike, do you have a disclaimer/term of use posted somewhere (I couldn't find one) alerting users that posting code to this site is a waiver of copyright?

This area of IP regarding platform configuration fascinates me...

gene

Reply With Quote
 
  #28 (permalink)
Elite Member
Houston,Tx
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Favorite Futures: TF
 
ThatManFromTexas's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,302 since Feb 2010
Thanks: 1,208 given, 4,293 received


geneb View Post
I realize this thread is over a year old, but I just joined and came across this discussion -- and the one involving the supposed copying of indications by other sites. I wanted to poke around at the issue a bit and was curious if anyone here has actually looked at the patent. I'd like to see it myself to see what it claims. Anyone have the patent number?

Also, is it customary here to claim copyright in posted code? I am not yet an elite member, so I haven't been able to determine whether code posters have a copyright claim in posted code.

BigMike, do you have a disclaimer/term of use posted somewhere (I couldn't find one) alerting users that posting code to this site is a waiver of copyright?

This area of IP regarding platform configuration fascinates me...

gene

@geneb

If you want to get Big Mike's attention you post ..... @Big Mike

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
Reply With Quote
 
  #29 (permalink)
Elite Member
Phoenix AZ USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: SierraChart
Broker/Data: TradePro/TransAct
Favorite Futures: NQ YM RTY
 
Posts: 295 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 125 given, 338 received


geneb View Post
I realize this thread is over a year old, but I just joined and came across this discussion -- and the one involving the supposed copying of indications by other sites. I wanted to poke around at the issue a bit and was curious if anyone here has actually looked at the patent. I'd like to see it myself to see what it claims. Anyone have the patent number?

gene

TT moved the link to the settlement document.

Here's the new link:
https://www.tradingtechnologies.com/Global/pdf/news/050714_NinjaSettlement.pdf

TTís U.S. Patent Nos. 6,766,304 and 6,772,132.

Reply With Quote
 
  #30 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Bangkok
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: MultiCharts.NET, S5, Ninj
Broker/Data: AMP, S5, IB
Favorite Futures: ES
 
DionysusToast's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,668 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 776 given, 8,721 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary



geneb View Post
I realize this thread is over a year old, but I just joined and came across this discussion -- and the one involving the supposed copying of indications by other sites. I wanted to poke around at the issue a bit and was curious if anyone here has actually looked at the patent. I'd like to see it myself to see what it claims. Anyone have the patent number?

Also, is it customary here to claim copyright in posted code? I am not yet an elite member, so I haven't been able to determine whether code posters have a copyright claim in posted code.

BigMike, do you have a disclaimer/term of use posted somewhere (I couldn't find one) alerting users that posting code to this site is a waiver of copyright?

This area of IP regarding platform configuration fascinates me...

gene

I tried reading it - I think it needs a lawyer to translate it.

Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > TradingTechnologies DOM patent and royalty licensing fees

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Linda Bradford Raschke: Reading The Tape

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

January

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
new fees for TF Silvester17 Emini Index Futures Trading 35 April 13th, 2016 10:46 PM
Exchange, Clearing and Regulatory Fees soroka21 Traders Hideout 5 December 23rd, 2010 12:49 AM
NYSE fees in a Backtest jakeglb Stocks and ETFs Trading 2 December 11th, 2010 03:03 PM
From Card Fees to Mortgages, It's a New Day for Consumers Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 June 25th, 2010 03:30 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:53 PM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-11 in 0.17 seconds with 20 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.145.16.43