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Bookmap vs Jigsaw Daytradr


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Bookmap vs Jigsaw Daytradr

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  #91 (permalink)
 synclavier 
London, United Kingdom
 
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I use Bookmap while executing with Daytradr ...and both work well.

My only gripe is that I wish that Bookmap would allow for more than one chart of the same instrument using a single data feed. e.g. I would love to have both long term and short term ES charts up, but it's not possible.

Instead, I find myself constantly fiddling with the time slice intervals on one chart rather than being able to set and forget a L/T and S/T interval on two charts. Getting another connection solely for another ES chart would be costly as I'd be in 'Pro' user territory. Surely there must be a way of adding additional instances of the same instrument without needing additional data connections? @Bookmap

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  #92 (permalink)
Kza56
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synclavier View Post
I use Bookmap while executing with Daytradr ...and both work well.

My only gripe is that I wish that Bookmap would allow for more than one chart of the same instrument using a single data feed. e.g. I would love to have both long term and short term ES charts up, but it's not possible.

Instead, I find myself constantly fiddling with the time slice intervals on one chart rather than being able to set and forget a L/T and S/T interval on two charts. Getting another connection solely for another ES chart would be costly as I'd be in 'Pro' user territory. Surely there must be a way of adding additional instances of the same instrument without needing additional data connections? @Bookmap

Same for me. I find bookmap better in visualisation for market depth. The stops and icebergs indicators help a lot too. I like to use it for market context. But i prefer execute on jigsaw’s dom. It’s more customizable and better, for me, for scalping.

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  #93 (permalink)
futureflow
Amsterdam The Nederlands
 
 
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Hi all,

I'm going through this whole topic thread from page one, and i like the comments of Flyer873 and matthew28.

Many things are still new to me here because i still trade crypto now. I'm leaning more towards order flow trading the futures.

I am curious what the more experienced people think.

I would like to buy a lifetime licence with NT8 because of there charting & futures brokerage and also oder flow at-ons, looks like it Keep your trading costs low and especially with scalping.


My question is:

To limit monthly costs, what is wisdom?

1) I would like to use Rithmic becasuse of MBO-data. Bud I understand that is not possible because it is for licence holders before 2014. The Continuum data feed from NT8 brokerage uses CQG for real-time market data and order routing. Bud is not MBO data. Is full depth of market required to get a good overview of the DOM on Jigsaw? Or do i need to add market depth data and what does that cost extra ?

2) Is kinetick data feed a option will it work with the Jigsaw platform bridge via NT8?

3) How many of you traded with the DOM PRO from Bookmap,
and what is the difference with Jigsaw. (I didn't see this question) And can you explain what makes the distinction ?

4) If I want to start with both BM and JS, what is the best and cheapest monthly setup in terms of data feeds...

Rithmic for BM and CQG for Jigsaw? And which add-ons should i add right away and what do they cost??

5) I would also like to have Eurex exchange data, is this possible with the above setup -> Order routing and execution via NT brokerage and level I and level II data also visible?

I'll appreciate anybody's 2 cents answering my question.
I thank you & good day,

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  #94 (permalink)
 matthew28 
Legendary Elite_Member
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Experience: Beginner
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Trading: US Equity Index Futures
 
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@futureflow

Personally I don't think you really need full depth for a DOM because you probably haven't got that many visible levels either side of the current price anyway.
Full depth is good for Bookmap, (or any other heatmap), because with a chart you do have much more price levels visible. Especially for a thinner product like the NQ. That's why Bookmap recommend Rithmic for their users.
So for a DOM you want level 2 data which shows the depth of market whether it is ten levels or more depending on the provider. That costs a little more than the basic level 1 which shows price and transacted volume which is fine if you just want a basic chart, footprint chart or time and sales ( level 1 doesn't have depth), but personally I don't think it needs to be extended "full book" level 2 data.

Kinetick is a cheaper version of DTN IQ Feed data feed but designed to only work through the Ninjatrader platform. You could use that data through Ninja to then feed Jigsaw too. Bookmap used to have a Ninjatrader plugin too but not sure whether it does anymore.

Another option is the Bookmap data add on at $39/month/exchange (link below). I haven't tried that but from the Connection Guide page I believe they give you a Rithmic data feed login and you can use that with the Rithmic R Trader platform and "allow plug ins" so that platform can then feed data to Bookmap, Jigsaw and Ninjatrader.
I do this myself, using R Trader to power Jigsaw simply for a time and sales/reconstructed tape for Pricesquawk which I like, and to send trades in to Journalytix. Then also run Bookmap at the same time for the DOM Pro. So I know this works fine, I just haven't tried using the data feed add on from Bookmap.

Obviously all this stuff gets expensive if you buy it all at once, but I have been interested in trading for a while so bought Jigsaw quite a long time ago and have a lifetime licence for that, and also bought a Bookmap licence quite awhile ago when it was more basic and cheaper, so now I just have to pay $50 a month for the Bookmap Global+ licence which lets me use DOM Pro (and Execution Pro). I believe the standard price is $79 a month. That also allows one to trade live rather than just sim which with Jigsaw requires a $50/month fee for live/real money not sim trading.

I like the Jigsaw time and sales and the DOM generally works well, but I was having trouble with trades reversing when I exited. I might exit two lots and one lot would reverse. I don't know if it was the Tradovate feed rather than Jigsaw as I never saw it mentioned as an issue in the Jigsaw Discord group, but I stopped trusting the platform anyway.
Dom Pro I like as it works very well and the Bookmap platform was designed with fast execution in mind and I haven't had any issues. The DOM is a little more basic, but the developers (Fintech Visuals who developed it as a Bookmap Market Place add on, but recently sold it to Bookmap who have taken it in house and made it part of their platform), say they took what they liked about X trader and Jigsaw DOMs and used that to guide the features they chose.
That is fine for me as I only use a few DOM columns anyway and not a lot of the extra stuff Jigsaw has. Execution Pro also works well with DOM Pro providing keyboard shortcuts and some order management features (moving orders up and down the book with keyboard buttons, increasing/decreasing bracket order size if scaling in and out of a position, trailing stops etc (see DOM Pro and Execution Pro add on details below to compare with Jigsaw).
(To be fair to Jigsaw though, I have tried running a Jigsaw DOM and DOM pro side by side off the same Rithmic R Trader data and I can't see a difference in the display of data).

Costs you can work out yourself when you narrow down the options. Kinetick will be more expensive than the Bookmap data addon but they would both be more expensive than opening a brokerage account with a broker providing Rithmic data.
Same for Eurex data, if a broker provides it then the platform will run it, or you could get it from Kinetick. I assume they offer it, I haven't looked.

More than I intended to write and obviously just my opinions and thoughts, not recommendations.


https://marketplace.bookmap.com/product/rithmic-mbo-data/

https://bookmap.com/knowledgebase/docs/Addons-DOM-Pro

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  #95 (permalink)
futureflow
Amsterdam The Nederlands
 
 
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@matthew28


Thank you for your clarification on DOM data feed.

You say: (Rithmic data feed login and you can use that with the Rithmic R Trader platform and "allow plug ins" so that platform can then feed data to Bookmap, Jigsaw and Ninjatrader.) -
So as i understand no pro trader can't have more than two data feeds right, if I understand you correctly, i choose a broker who support Rithmic and push my order through and it will work with all platforms? Ninjatrader for me does not support Ritmic...


I'm figuring out Bookmap and ther cost, it looks like im more paying when i buy Bookmap and waive at Jigsaw for example there add-on MBO Bundle for $178/month) Apart from there $79/month that allows to trade live - It's all standard with Jigsaw if I understand correctly, and for a fixed amount of $50/month. (Also the 2k version ''GLOBAL PLUS'' is more than Jigsaw, for your execution. One-time purchase) And also i see the added value of Journalytix trade history via Jigsaw. What about bookmap on that?

My biggest point is i like Ninjatrader as a charting tool and to do my order execution via Ninja brokerage, unfortunately no Rithmic support for me i only see a workaround via Jigsaw and then
with two data feeds one for NT & JS and one Rithmic for BM, right? Or is there a better solution...

Don't get me wrong I would rather have a platform all in one and then for example Bookmap, but it seems that it is a bit difficult for me now broker choice and monthly fees.

Side note if i open a Interactive brokers account with a Rithmic data feed can i use that for Ninja trader charting and make a data bridge for Bookmap / Jigsaw via Ninjatrader. Curious?!

Best,

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  #96 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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futureflow View Post

You say: (Rithmic data feed login and you can use that with the Rithmic R Trader platform and "allow plug ins" so that platform can then feed data to Bookmap, Jigsaw and Ninjatrader.) -
So as i understand no pro trader can't have more than two data feeds right, if I understand you correctly, i choose a broker who support Rithmic and push my order through and it will work with all platforms? Ninjatrader for me does not support Ritmic...

Sorry that was confusing. One can connect Ninja to R-Trader, as one can connect Bookmap or Jigsaw, and a person could then look at Ninja charts, but you're right, you wouldn't be able to trade through your Ninja brokerage account that way.

The costs add up. Do you need the MBO addon? I am still a bit vague on exactly what it offers but it seems to me that with Bookmap one can see whether large orders are resting or pulling from the order book, and have stop runs and icebergs marked on the chart. But you can see those anyway just looking at a DOM or a Bookmap chart and see when price flushes through a level or where orders are being added in and an iceberg is holding the market in place momentarily.

You don't need MBO data to get level 2 data (the order book). If using Jigsaw for instance you need level 2 data for the DOM, but that program makes no use or shows that MBO information. Maybe somebody who uses MBO information will comment on why they find it useful. I haven't used it because as I say, if looking at Bookmap or a DOM in real time I think one can see that anyway, so haven't considered buying it and have no personal experience.
Remember that Bookmap was developed by algo users/quants and as well as a trading tool can be used to record full level 1 and level 2 market data which will include MBO data useful for trading system developers.

Journalytix is nice to have as it automatically uploads all your trades so one has them available for basic analysis and can also download that data for use in Excel or similar if wanting to analyse something Journalytix doesn't have. It also counts a trade as from flat to flat if adding in or out, unlike Ninja which can count the separate fills as different trades.

Perhaps Jigsaw will be best for you to use with Ninja, you get journalytix too, and it's cheaper. Like I say, having run a Jigsaw DOM side by side with Bookmap DOM Pro off the same Rithmic feed, visually both order books and Current Trades for Jigsaw and Recent Bids/Asks for Bookmap looked the same to me. I did change the refresh rate on Jigsaw to 50 ms as I heard or read somewhere that the DOM Pro refreshed twenty times/second.


futureflow View Post
Side note if i open a Interactive brokers account with a Rithmic data feed can i use that for Ninja trader charting and make a data bridge for Bookmap / Jigsaw via Ninjatrader. Curious?

You could but I believe IB bundle their data in to quarter second blocks which is fine for charts and quote boards, but not good for order flow tools. One would then want a "good" data feed, such as the Rithmic addon as a second connection to run Bookmap charts, or as a second connection for Jigsaw. Therefore not worth switching from Ninja to IB for the Rithmic data.

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  #97 (permalink)
futureflow
Amsterdam The Nederlands
 
 
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@ matthew28

Thanks a lot! It helps to get some information and stuff to think about...
That's why the somewhat late response back to you.

I get your point of view on the MBO addon for Bookmap. It's just what you say a different view of the observation of tape.

So i'm thinking about doing it now in the following way, I wonder if that can be done in one go.

Get Global Plus from Bookmap and get the DomPro in that way, and have a all in one platform for trading. Then the data to be supplied with Rithmic. And to do my brokerage via AMP Futures and take the CME Bundle and add-on EUREX exchange data feed for all of the order routing and execution via BM. So far this all works together. Right?

-- Now for the last part of the puzzle --

I have come across APEX Clearing or ApexTrader? - I see that a number of Dom traders choose this especially, they say they are completely different from all the others brokerage. why is this?

Instead of Journalytix I can just as well use Tradervue right? and to which platform do you connect this through Bookmap or your brokerage. I think through the BM platform right?

Last bud not least. I still don't understand exactly what's going on with all those data feed connection possibilities

For my charting/analysis I would like to use NT8 for that reason. But when wanting to purchase NT8 and talking to support to get me the lifetime license, because I would like to start with more of order flow trading with things like - VWAP with deviation and volumetric bars (footprint style chart) etc...

Can I do this via these one connection that I get from Rithmic? And can I provide all this this data through this single connection to connect Bookmap/Ampfutures and then also feed NT8 with realtime market data? Because the support of NT say it's not possible and I have to take another connection from them like CQG or Rithmic...

Thx,

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  #98 (permalink)
HiLatencyTRDR HLT
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Try using these different visuals to help you trade but if they don't work and fast then just stop using them. There is no grail in this latent visual reproduction if the market

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  #99 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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futureflow View Post

Get Global Plus from Bookmap and get the DomPro in that way, and have a all in one platform for trading. Then the data to be supplied with Rithmic. And to do my brokerage via AMP Futures and take the CME Bundle and add-on EUREX exchange data feed for all of the order routing and execution via BM. So far this all works together. Right?

I have come across APEX Clearing or ApexTrader? - I see that a number of Dom traders choose this especially, they say they are completely different from all the others brokerage. why is this?

Instead of Journalytix I can just as well use Tradervue right? and to which platform do you connect this through Bookmap or your brokerage. I think through the BM platform right?

Last bud not least. I still don't understand exactly what's going on with all those data feed connection possibilities

This is all getting too confusing. If Ninja support says it won't work or you need another connection then they are probably right.

If you went the Bookmap route to trade I think you would use your brokerage data feed, ideally Rithmic data, and trades would be submitted from Bookmap to the brokaerage.
If you wanted to use a different brokerage, not trade through Bookmap but just use that as charts for reference but not trading through then you could power Bookmap with their add on Rithmic data feed but execute trades from Ninja say.

I googled Apex Trader and found Apex Trader Funding, a funding company where you pay to take a test and if you pass they fund you, like other available funding companies.
Or Apex Futures which looks like it is using the Gain Futures/Open E-Cry platform which is an off the shelf platform a brokerage can buy to offer their own customers a free platform, used by quite a few brokerages. So nothing special platform wise.

You could use TraderVue. One advantage with Journalytix is that it uploads trades automatically in real time. There used to be/might still be a real time upload plugin for Ninjatrader to automatically upload trades to Tradervue, but otherwise you have to do it yourself by downloading your trade log from your platform each day then uploading it to Tradervue.

The rest is too specific. I have tried a few platforms and have a general idea but for precise connection detail examples regarding one platform or another, go with what Ninja, Bookmap etc support say.

Try some tools out then pick the one that makes sense to you and stick with that to give it a good go. Order flow tools basically all use the same data presented in different formats. A DOM shows traded volume and the order book, a heatmap chart such as Bookmap shows the same but in a format people used to charts might prefer and it shows some historical data and more context. But DOMs are narrow and you can easily have a few correlated markets side by side. Footprint charts just show trade volume and if large enough to read can take up a lot of space depending on time frame and visible history etc.

One thing I would say is be careful of having too much information and analysis paralysis where you have so much information, often conflicting, you can't make a decision. MBO data, VWAP with deviation, footprint charts, hetamap charts, DOM all things you have mentioned so far. With trading I think people would often suggest less is more.
At the end of the day you are simply deciding whether to buy or sell because at that time the odds are better or the reward/risk ratio is favourable. That's it. Simple but not easy.

That's three lengthy posts that pretty much exhaust my general knowledge or suggestions on this topic. Good luck

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