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This morning I've started my two week trial of X-Trader. I'm looking to eliminate NT entirely. For months, I've used MultiCharts to chart and NT for DOM only, but I'd like to remove NT because it still causes me problems every now and then.
My two week trial is coming from Velocity Futures. There is a thread with reviews on Velocity.
Having never used X-Trader before, there is a bit of a learning curve. But after an hour I've got the basics down and now I am just playing and trying various things so I can understand each setting. I need to read the manual still.
Here are a couple of screen shots. I will post more as I learn more.
Mike there are some really good (but long) training videos on the X_Trader site, and depending on your FCM you might be able to get into a TT classroom as well.
Note there is a huge difference between XT_Pro and the "free" version some FCMs offer. Take a look at the plugins available and see what you need.
Its old and clunky (C++ 2003 mostly, Win XP only) but you find it everywhere size is traded.
If you are a discretionary trader you are in good company. But if you use DDE links to autotrade you will be toast .
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MX,
The PS Trader plug-in looks nice. Do you have any experience with it? I've asked Dale @ Velocity Futures (dbox /at/ velocityfutures.com) for some more info on it.
The Trade Analyzer looks particularly nice, this is somewhat of a concern to have some of the functionality that NT has, it seems I would need this plug-in.
Any experience with either of them?
After two hours of testing, and 1800 contracts traded (lol), I have a nice 30k profit to show. Testing new software is always fun
Mike this is the hard part (what plugins do I need for TT in 2010) and perhaps where I'm coming from things are "bass ackwards".
How do you want to manage your risk, and at what cost in relation to the size of your account?
How much of the management of risk are your comfortable placing on your broker and your platform? TT has some great stuff here.
Ninja, XYZ, and ABC (not naming software companies here) all work with or around the TT patent on the static DOM on a workstation level. Risk is a bit more global if more than one trader is involved. TT is in the top five of the institutional platforms globally, so there is a lot you can do with it.
Ninja can work with the TT_Fix, BTW As can MatLab.
TT execution with external charting is popular.
You have begun the journey to the institutional software darkside... I'd say something clever and witty here but I'm pressed for time .
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I've had the Velocity's two-week X_Trader (Demo) some months ago. I didn't seem to get a good grasp of it. I now have a one-month TT_Trader from E*Trade Financial (see etrade.com), which is really X_Trader; and which is expiring just now. I've also not been able to get well along with using TT_Trader/X_Trader; I particularly want to have an Auto-Breakeven, AutoTrailing, and/or Auto-STOP moves setups; I've been able to understand AutoTrailing to a very little extent. My yesterday's Diary was on both TT_Trader/X_Trader and NT7's ChartTrader (see my yesterday posts #169, #170 and #171). This thread came right on time for me.
Lolu
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I am just now starting to mess with the trailing stops. I added the PS Trader plug-in, and it handles the OCO executions for trailing both entries and exits, it seems. I need to read the manual still, but here are a couple screen shots of PS Trader plug-in.
I've also attached the PS Trader manual, it might help you see what its features are.
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EPIQ is awesome too. Can't understand why Ninja can't put a volume histogram on their DOM and calculate EPIQ like X_Trader.
The cost of X_Trader is incredibly prohibitive for most.
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I'm actually beginning to like x trader as well, i didn't know about the plugins before. I do have to say one of the greatest functionalities i like about this is it tells you where you are in Que on getting filled, which is GREAT on the ES.....
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TT then says: "Mike, join the darkside, you are my son Mike and this is your fate" (spoken with darth vader voice).
Mike, good to see you checking out of some alternatives there. If we never looks or try's other things, then we may never know what it that gives us that special edge.
At the end of the day I guess its about, will this make us "more profitable"? As that is were the coin drops.
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In my case, I will be paying less than Mirus per r/t and also getting X-Trader for free through Velocity Futures, and they matched Mirus' CL margin, and they have a better customer portal area... and they are an FCM instead of an IB... so, you can see what direction I am leaning. Now, Mirus is great if you need Zen Fire, and every NinjaTrader user does, for the most part But my goal is to be free of Ninja.
As I continue increasing size, I will soon pay a lot less via Velocity than Mirus.
That seems like good enough reason for incentive there Mike., I guess its also a simple review of ones business model too.
Saying your that your done then NT, do you mean completely done? Though what are you going to do with your NT key/license? are these things transferable at all? and if you wish to unload yours then please let me know there Mike
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They are non-transferrable...
But look, it's simple - I just want to trade! I don't want to mess with software. How many posts and threads on the forum are about problems with NT? I know the potential is HUGE, I was seduced by this for a very long time. But enough is enough, time to trade. It's a business decision not a personal one. Maybe NT8 or NT9 or whatever can lure me back at some point.
So back to talking about X-Trader, I haven't done much testing today as I was taking care of some errands. I did notice everything was smooth during the CL inventory report, whereas my trading buddy Gary said that NT/Zen froze on him today out of nowhere, so that's never good.
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rassi,
I'm looking to find an automatic way to set profit targets and stop loss orders after a new position is put on. Haven't found it yet. But, during my testing so far I've already got in the habit of just hitting the OCO button and placing the stop and target where I want it.
It is true, it is different than NinjaTrader and it "feels" less automatic. I wouldn't mind having the feature, actually, so I emailed Dale @ Velocity and asked him, just to see if I am overlooking it. But, truth be told, I am already used to the manual OCO placement method, and since my stop and target are always different (not a pre-defined tick size) then really it isn't a huge deal for me.
If I find out how to do it I'll let you know.
I've attached a MP4 video to this post that shows the OCO option.
Looks good thanks mike, I was talking to someone else on their live chat link who pointed me in the same direction.
Will have to work out how to set it up. I, like you, change the amounts per trade but like a standard default set up so I know when I enter I am covered on the stop side straight away. With NT its easy to just drag the stops and targets to where I want them!
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Here is another video playing with OCO Trader plug-in for automatic target and stop placement. I like how it can calculate in percentages of position size, that is fantastic. It's quite simple to use, much more so than NinjaTrader's ATM which always confused me for some reason.
Unfortunately my practice trades were losers in this example, lol, but I was just playing with large order quantity to see how it broke up lots at multiple levels.
There is also a trail feature which is straightforward.
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I've been playing with the X-Trader workspace. I am liking it quite a bit. So far I am finding the reporting tools to be really easy to understand. For some reason I always had a bit of trouble with Ninja's reporting toolset, I can't put my finger on it but following the sequence of a complex trade was never easy. It seems a lot easier in X-Trader.
I also really like the slider on the DOM (above the Trade Out button, I showed it briefly in last video). Very nice! It lets you zoom out on the DOM by collapsing price levels, so I can quickly set targets further away without having to scroll the DOM!
Also, the recenter feature of the DOM is smart. If I am in the middle of placing a target or stop, it won't recenter on me.
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There is still some DOM functionality I was hoping for but that I haven't figured out how to do, or if its even possible.
Let's say I am in a long position and my stop and target is set for this long position.
Now, I want to have a buy stop a few ticks beyond my current profit target --- a level where I want to re-enter the market, or add to a position.
I wish I could set stops and targets ahead of time for that order, but apparently you cannot. This is something I do somewhat regularly so I was hoping it could do it. I could use OCO Trader, but it's just cumbersome to try and quickly calculate the exact tick offset manually. I know where stop and target should be at a price level, I just wish I could do some sort of nested OCO group, like for X-Trader to know that this buy stop is 'group 2' and that when I follow it up with an OCO for my target/stop loss orders, that is also 'group 2' and should only execute after I am filled.
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Nope, am using free version. The depth is configurable up to 20 levels but I'm only getting 10 levels on CL it seems. Settings -> Properties -> Trading Tab -> General -> Market Depth.
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No audio, is simpler that way
I don't think it has a chart trader but I really don't know, I haven't opened a chart in it, I have MultiCharts for that and prefer to keep it that way.
So Mike, in essence you are saying that you will run 2 platforms in parallel, one for charting and the other for execution yes?
If so, would like to hear your thoughts on if you feel that would be a more solid way to trade rather than having only one platform doing all the biz.
I previously traded this way with by using ProRealtime (with stocks) and then executing my trades with my broker(s). Sometimes though I would encounter a problem with PRT that data would at times random times not display correctly, which when (what I call anomaly's) these happened, would kinda throw me mentally.
Anyhow, would love to see MultiCharts have a chart trader as well as a DOM in the versions to come which I believe DOM will be, but chart trader like NTs would be a super bonus. (imo)
I'm using TT since version 6 starting in 2004. I'm trading with TT on Eurex, CME and CBOT. Please be aware that most of the offered plugin's are working correctly with version 7.6.2.2 only. After this version, they start to call it 7.7., most of the plugin's have some problems with changed API and so on.
Further please be aware that, depending on the exchange, using OCO with- and without the plugin's accures problems with the orders if you shutdown TT. The OCO orders are not placed at the exchange or TT -Order-Network. They are just placed in the TT on your running desktop. Therefore, if you shutdown TT your OCO's will be deleted (depending on which exchange you are trading).
I can't recommend to use the TT-Fix-Adapter in connection with Multicharts for now. As a data feed it depends on how your broker delivers the data. Most of the TT-Brokers are delivering the data compressed. So it could be, using tick charts, you are not able to get right data. It's not an issue from TT, it's your broker. Further, if you study the Multicharts-Forum there are several issues with automatic trading for now.
If you need any help with TT pls take a look in the TT-forum under ..... or contact me. I'm not able to post the correct link because I've no more then 5 posts. In the forum are many threats about everything you should know about TT. Further there are some threats how to speed up TT and so on.
Kind regards.
Mike
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I don't see what the big deal is with having a separate platforms.... I actually think its better because you have 2 separate data feeds(redundancy), and also, if your charting package crashes, your trading platform won't.... There's more positives than negatives.
Most pro's go as far as having a separate computer just for their trading platform.
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Michael ... I don't see a big deal with having two different platforms. I'm working with TT since 2004 for trading. I'm working with TS and Multicharts for technical research on a different machine and different line. So I think having two different platforms running is a big advantage.
Mike
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Also, yes Michael.H, I agree redundancy is King and there are many more positives.
I guess I like to hear all the nuts and bolts of a users configuration(s) or combinations, either with platforms, brokers, hardware, or even networks, so its all good.
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I've been doing it already for months with MultiCharts + NT DOM. MultiCharts will get its DOM and chart trading soon enough, but it still doesn't mean I have to use it or will want to. X-Trader is a proven platform for execution, and is at "version 7" whereas MultiCharts DOM will essentially be "version 1". So, bearing all that in mind I decided to look at X-Trader. Since I am not paying any premium for it, I can easily discontinue it at some point in future when MultiCharts gives me 100% of what I need.
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Can you elaborate more on the 7.7 changes and why this would be the case?
Thanks for the heads up. For me personally, I intend to use IQFeed data still in MultiCharts. But, one day when MC has a DOM I will need TT for execution.
Mike .... A long time ago I worked on the quality of TT data. I complained many times about the bad quality of data and talked a lot of times with the guys in Chicago and London. All in all and after weeks of working on it, we've found out that the issue with the quality of the data was an issue from the broker side only. Tick-by-tick data were wrong, T&S data were wrong, the volume by price data were wrong (are most of the time still wrong, specially in fast markets) and the volume profile were updated incorrect. Please don't trust tooooooo much the EPIQ. Most of the time it's right, but if you start to see that like 10 contracts are infront of you at a limit, 30 contracts are bid after your time stamp and then 20 contracts are trading at this level and you are still not filled, then you will know what I mean. I saw that many times in 2 years now after they implemented this feature. I'm a GNI customer and I'm trading most of the time on the EUREX. GNI is implementing the EBS algofeed for their customers and they are promising that you will see unfiltered real tick-by-tick data. So it should be very useful in quality and speed as a datafeed in MC for charting and execution.
So what I want to say : Ask your broker on which TT-server they put you. Data quality wise and performance wise (!!!!!!!). Very important.
Some traders, like we have, have their own server setup in the broker server-farm. If you are in a retailer-server-setup it can be that you will see hangings in the "book" updates and T&S. Then may you see a faster chart in MC then the updates from price and book in TT.
Mike, do have access to the "Customer Portal" on the TT site ? If yes then pls download some addons and install them together with TT 7.7. Then you will see that some addons are not working correctly with TT 7.7. There are no very important advantages of version 7.7 compared to 7.6.2 and further. So pls download 7.6.2 (may on a different workstation) and work with the OCO trader and so on .... You will see what I mean.
Another important point. Automatic trading between MC and TT is possible without the FIX adapter. But with TT Pro only. TT Pro has an "Autotrader" feature. This feature can be setup via Excel in connection to the API or RTD. So you can write something in VBA Excel and trade from MC in TT. Like :
If condition 1 then Buy ..... (set Excel Cell like "1" with price and so on and translate it in VBA as a buy in TT)
If you contact your broker they will make you an appointment with some TT-developers which will help you with this. I made this several times. So if your broker is not so helpfull pls don't hesitate to contact me and I will try to call some good guys there, which will be able to help you.
Ok, should be enough for today. Sorry for my bad English ;o). If something is not clear pls reply to this or contact me via email or PM.
Thx a lot.
Kind regards.
Mike ;o)
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Thanks Mike.
Can you provide more details on the TT server, specifically what I should ask my broker and what an acceptable answer is vs. a bad answer, and why? In terms of your experience with the quality of data, etc. I imagined they had a direct TT feed, I did not envision any more hierarchy than that.
re: EPIQ - another way of utilising this is to notice when you get a fill and the EPIQ says you are still miles down the book (assuming the matching algo is FIFO)... you get people making inside prices in size and re-loading, sometimes they will be working one leg of a spread, other times its just a spoof.
re: TT-pro... you know somewhere floating around on the internet is a guide as to how to upgrade from X_Trader to X_Trader PRO without the hefty fees - it's mostly playing about in the registry. I have never done it, though!
CPI
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TT is a world-class execution platform, however like many mentioned here there might be issues at the FCM and how they house their TT servers. My shop pays our brokers extra $$ for dedicated TT-servers that way we are guaranteed faster fills and no issues. Because of this change, we no longer have any data related issues. Even on flash-crash day we were able to "keep" up with the market.
Like others mentioned also, I think for the smaller trader, TT may be cost-prohibitive, but if you have something worked out with your broker -- good for you!
I just spoke to TT yesterday and evidently they released a new version (7.8) on 8/4. It's supposed to fix some major issues regarding the TT workspace. During a hectic day of trading a few weeks back, our local TT server lost all ability to view certain markets (and hence place any orders). This, I've been told, was a bug that has been fixed with 7.8.
From the execution perspective, I'd have to say that they are very, very good.
Good luck!
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FYI, I have had more problems with Eurex than with TT. Fo' Sho' !!
But with velocity make sure you understand what orders are native to the exchange you are trading because their phone brokers drop the ball (!!). It's no good when your internet goes down and you have your orders resting on the exchange, only for you to call Velocity and they go and trade you out at market (!!!!!!!!!!).
It's a reliable platform. If speed is what you need to run your autospreader then you ain't gonna be trading it from home are you?? It doesn't come with fancy charts (X_study is shit!) but if trades and orders are what you need then it is a proper piece of kit.
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I think TT suites trader who trades who are not rely on chart-trading style or indicators.
I did use it on TTSIM with VF but still has a lot more to experiment and explore.
I've found X-study is simple and good enough for a Java based chart , one interesting aspect of X-Study is with Volume related indicator as well as Market profile.
Definitely ,TT Auto-spreader is not for trader who trader from home.
I'm not sure if Velocity has finish their ASE server functionality, ASE might help reduce latency issue with Auto Spreader on the local machine without hosting dedicated server with FCM.
Yeah, TT is really an execution only platform with crap charts bolted on the side. If you want an execution with charts platform then CGQ (Integrated client (??) is good... and isn't there spreader shit hot quick? it's colocated or sumit??
Hey Mike, you might try T4, white labeled as Dorman Direct. I'm using it,,, the prices come in faster than zen, and unlike X there is not a big cost associated with it. You can get a demo of it as well. I really like it...
Hi Mike - Thanks for such an informative post. I am thinking about making this switch to X-Trader also. I contacted Dale @ Velocity and he says I can use the TT Adaptor with NT7 and use X-Trader for entering my orders. I own a lifetime license of NT but am not against switching to MC. I know you have said Ninja is best suited for Zenfire but any guidance on whether NT7 with TT Adaptor is a viable solution or would I be best to look elsewhere? Also do you know if trailing stops and OCO's are stored on the TT server at the Exchange or on the local PC or at the Brokers TT Server? I have been burned with Ninja on this before.
Many thanks and keep up the good work you do with this forum!
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Hi Trumpy,
I don't have direct experience with TT-FIX and NinjaTrader. But many here do, I suggest creating a new thread in the Brokers and Data Feeds section and ask those specific questions.
With regards to where the orders are kept (OCO, etc) I don't have the answer on that, but it is certainly something I would aim to know before using the platform in live trades. I am supposed to be in bed, as I have a pneumonia, perhaps you can do the leg work or email Velocity and ask then share the results for all of us.
Thanks Mike. Hope you are on the mend shortly. I got an answer on OCO's. Apparently they are stored on the TT Server. I will double check on Trailing Stops. I posted that question here as I typically rather hear the answer from other traders (many on this forum also IT guys) rather than from brokers as this can be something that is easy to mix up.
Ok so I was given the incorrect information. I thought I would just double check so I called Xtrader in Chicago. They said all OCO's are stored on the local PC. Trailing stops are also stored on the local PC unless the Exchange natively supports them in which case it is held on the TT Servers.
I also asked them about which TT Servers was he referring to and he said it depends on the broker. In the case of Velocity he said they have their own TT-Net Servers so the orders would be stored there if the Exchange Supports the order type.
I believe CQG Trader holds all OCO's and Trailing stops on their own servers (not a broker implemented version) which would be one difference between the two.
Hope this helps someone else who was looking for this info.
Cheers
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If you are using X Trader be sure to upgrade to the latest version 7.8.1 that was released on Friday, August 13th. According to Velocity Futures this is a critical update. Contact them if any questions.
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Actually I've been told by TT to hold off on the update as of now. They've pulled 7.8.1 from the Production list of versions. This update is critical for token handling, I guess it should have been in TEST longer. Look for a new update in the coming days.
I am also thinking of making the switch from NT to X Trader. I see Velocity offers a free version of X Trader. Has anyone tried it?
How about the TT feed how does it compare to Zen? I have been using Ninja for years and if it werent for some major hiccups ive been having i wouldnt be looking else where.
Thanks
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Were the hiccups due to the Zenfire data feed (I heard of a few recently) or the NT software itself?.
I plan to stay with Ninja but use the Trading Technologies data-feed provided by Velocity. The demo is working well so far.
But, I always expect problems, so the question is how good is the telephone service of your broker to get out of a no longer wanted or manageable trade.
X-Trader is a DOM and I am used to trade thru the charts. I do not even use the NT DOM.
Carlos
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Issues are related to chart trader. Some actions I made caused NT to crash and NT started sending out live orders when I was down. They are on top of it though but I want to keep my options open. This is the only serious issue I have had with NT usually no problemos.
Do you ever have issues where the TT and IQ feeds don't match? For example, you see a potentially great entry on your chart, then go to XTrader and its off by a tick or two. I guess it wouldn't be as much of a problem if you are going off of 5-min charts.
Also, do the two data feeds clog your bandwidth? What type of internet connection do you use?
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No issue. I have DSL+Cable Modem redundant + load balanced. The amount of bandwidth for a data feed monitoring a dozen instruments is tiny. Perhaps 10-15k/sec tops. Right now I have a half dozen instruments up, and it is about 3k a sec. My incoming bandwidth supports over 6,000kb a sec for comparison.
Mike, you are now working for a few months with X-trader, could you post some responses please :
* Is the learning curve steep ?
* Stability ? Speed ? How is the software performing ?
* Going from 1 tool (NT) that does it all, to splitting it all up in different platforms, do you feel better with that choice now ?
* Is X-trader really something reserved/made for the elite ? Do retail traders benefit it in using it ? Is it worth converting ?
* If you would had to step away from X-trader today what would you choose ? As 'second best' option ? (multicharts excluding because their DOM v1.0 is not out yet)
* Is the learning curve steep ?
>>>> Not terribly and certainly worth it. As you can see from the screenshots, there's alot of fucntionality
* Stability ? Speed ? How is the software performing ?
>>>>> This is their calling card. TT gateways / xtrader never go down
* Going from 1 tool (NT) that does it all, to splitting it all up in different platforms, do you feel better with that choice now ?
>>>>> I haven't used NT and can't comment here
* Is X-trader really something reserved/made for the elite ? Do retail traders benefit it in using it ? Is it worth converting ?
>>>>> Xtrader is for all levels of traders. I have a full license and pay up for that. i need it for the automated tools. my wife is a part time trader and doesn't pay for her Xtrader at all. there are a few brokers out there that give it away
* If you would had to step away from X-trader today what would you choose ? As 'second best' option ? (multicharts excluding because their DOM v1.0 is not out yet)
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Just a note that some brokers such as velocity bundle the x-trader fee into their commissions. For example Velocity with X-Trader is 10 cents more per roundtrip on ES than Mirus. If one thinks it's worth 10 cents then it's a good deal, because x-trader is normally $700. If you do thousands of trades then the $700 would be cheaper. But for the trader who doesn't trade a lot 10 cents isn't a bad price to pay.
If one uses velocity with x-trader at $700/month then the commissions are much cheaper. So you pay either way, the most affordable depends on your trading volume and exchanges.
i'm currently doing an x-trader demo and i'm having a hard time using it over NT cause I'm so used to NT.
Just noticed this thread about TT. I've used TT all my career, so if anyone who's new to it has any questions about setting any part of it up, just send me a PM and i'll help you out.
Now I know why X_Trader is "free" with velocity. It's been down for 1 hour. Thankfully I was trading on sim. For traders who had on big size when it froze up that must have really sucked. So I chat with them and they say "we're working on it". That was 30 minutes ago.
Does this happen often with velocity? It's not giving me much confidence. I can only remember zenfire being down once during RTH and that's in 2 years.
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Velocity was down for over an hour, maybe more. Maybe it's coincidence and that's their own downtime per year but I'll be watching them closely.
I haven't looked at CQG or CTS T4. Do they show the cumulative volume on the DOM? That's mainly what I'm looking for so that I can see if contracts are traded or pulled.
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CQG looks very interesting, I'm going to do a demo. Thanks for the links to the other threads, I'm subscribed to the CQG thread. Velocity doesn't offer T4.
Hello Cunparis - I've had an account with Velocity for 2 months now and also had a problem yesterday. However when I contacted them, they were extremely helpful. They ran a trace route from my machine to their servers showing me the issue was the internet and not them at all. After contacting my ISP they too confirmed my connection was failing on it's way to the Velocity servers. I noticed you're in Paris? If I were that far away I think I'd have to colocate to remove the many ''hops'' needed to reach the US servers. I highly recommend Velocity (excellent portal & features) and X_TRADER. Dale more than matched my previous brokers commissions and I'm not even paying for X_TRADER anymore!
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