Stop Hunting - Fact or Fiction? - futures io
futures io



Stop Hunting - Fact or Fiction?


Discussion in Platforms and Indicators

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one choke35 with 17 posts (37 thanks)
    2. looks_two TWDsje with 13 posts (1 thanks)
    3. looks_3 Grantx with 7 posts (8 thanks)
    4. looks_4 rleplae with 5 posts (3 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one choke35 with 2.2 thanks per post
    2. looks_two tpredictor with 2 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 wmueller with 1.5 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 Grantx with 1.1 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 9,833 views
    2. thumb_up 86 thanks given
    3. group 20 followers
    1. forum 69 posts
    2. attach_file 12 attachments




Welcome to futures io: the largest futures trading community on the planet, with well over 125,000 members
  • Genuine reviews from real traders, not fake reviews from stealth vendors
  • Quality education from leading professional traders
  • We are a friendly, helpful, and positive community
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts
  • We are here to help, just let us know what you need
You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

 
Search this Thread
 

Stop Hunting - Fact or Fiction?

(login for full post details)
  #1 (permalink)
jflaggs
Los Angeles + California/United States
 
 
Posts: 17 since Aug 2017
Thanks: 7 given, 0 received

Hello,

*Please Note: I am looking for opinions from experienced traders, not noobs (like me) who may or may not be sore about how their broker is out to get them. I want an objective discussion if possible. Thanks.*

I hear a lot of accusations of Market Makers "stop hunting", trading against clients, and generally not respecting limit order prices. However, I have never understood HOW exactly Market Makers can accomplish price manipulation for their own gain.

Is there a person sitting behind a desk with a bid/ask knob that is creating the price movement in their favor or deliberately moving the bid/ask to take out your stops? If this is the case, then that would imply that different Market Makers will be giving completely separate quotes for the same instrument. If I pull up 5 minute charts from, say, Gain Capital and TradeStation, could I expect to see two completely different charts as each Market Maker cranks their bid/ask knob in their best interest?

I know that the example is silly, but the question is very serious. I need to know if stop hunting is a tin foil hat theory developed by losing traders or if I should seriously consider going with an ECN; and is an ECN the solution to this problem? If stop hunting and such are very true, is there any way a trader can avoid it? I don't want to play the victim role without fully understanding what's going on here.

Your input is appreciated

Thanks

Reply With Quote

Journal Challenge April 2021 results (now extended!):
Competing for $1800 in prizes from Jigsaw
looks_oneMaking a Living with the Microsby sstheo
(583 thanks from 59 posts)
looks_twoSalao's Journalby Salao
(141 thanks from 26 posts)
looks_3Deetee’s DAX Trading Journal (time based)by Deetee
(94 thanks from 30 posts)
looks_4Learning to Profit - A journey in algorithms and optionsby Syntax
(85 thanks from 26 posts)
looks_5Maybe a little bit different journalby Malykubo
(46 thanks from 28 posts)
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on futures io
I finally blew up an account
472 thanks
The Crude Dude Oil Trading System
72 thanks
Spoo-nalysis ES e-mini futures S&P 500
56 thanks
Are candlesticks patterns statistically significant?
35 thanks
The New Micro Contract - MICRO BITCOIN coming May 2021
19 thanks
 
(login for full post details)
  #3 (permalink)
 rleplae 
Gits (Hooglede) Belgium
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader, Proprietary,
Broker: Ninjabrokerage/IQfeed + Synthetic datafeed
Trading: 6A, 6B, 6C, 6E, 6J, 6S, ES, NQ, YM, AEX, CL, NG, ZB, ZN, ZC, ZS, GC
 
rleplae's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,991 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 2,437 given, 5,802 received



jflaggs View Post
Hello,

*Please Note: I am looking for opinions from experienced traders, not noobs (like me) who may or may not be sore about how their broker is out to get them. I want an objective discussion if possible. Thanks.*

I hear a lot of accusations of Market Makers "stop hunting", trading against clients, and generally not respecting limit order prices. However, I have never understood HOW exactly Market Makers can accomplish price manipulation for their own gain.

Is there a person sitting behind a desk with a bid/ask knob that is creating the price movement in their favor or deliberately moving the bid/ask to take out your stops? If this is the case, then that would imply that different Market Makers will be giving completely separate quotes for the same instrument. If I pull up 5 minute charts from, say, Gain Capital and TradeStation, could I expect to see two completely different charts as each Market Maker cranks their bid/ask knob in their best interest?

I know that the example is silly, but the question is very serious. I need to know if stop hunting is a tin foil hat theory developed by losing traders or if I should seriously consider going with an ECN; and is an ECN the solution to this problem? If stop hunting and such are very true, is there any way a trader can avoid it? I don't want to play the victim role without fully understanding what's going on here.

Your input is appreciated

Thanks

Stop run is real.

First question : what instrument are you talking about ?

That said and in order to give this discussion a positive spin :
  • You can't do anything against it, it's a legitimate way of making profit
  • You must learn to decipher the build-up and the action and not get caught on the wrong side of the fence

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to rleplae for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #4 (permalink)
jflaggs
Los Angeles + California/United States
 
 
Posts: 17 since Aug 2017
Thanks: 7 given, 0 received


rleplae View Post
Stop run is real.

First question : what instrument are you talking about ?

That said and in order to give this discussion a positive spin :
  • You can't do anything against it, it's a legitimate way of making profit
  • You must learn to decipher the build-up and the action and not get caught on the wrong side of the fence

Thanks for the input (: My experience is US Stocks & Forex, so those are the markets I'm mainly concerned about here.

- Stop running is real - Again, how is it accomplished by the broker? Until someone can articulate this, it's fiction, not fact.

- Can't do anything about it? I've heard that using an ECN will solve the issue. Thoughts on that?

- Decipher the build up. My way of doing this is to set a decent stop below where I think stop running might reach. That's more of art than science, but get's me by.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #5 (permalink)
 tr8er 
Europe
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeNavigator, BookMap
Trading: ES, CL, 6E, 6B
 
Posts: 479 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 33 given, 424 received

Yes, stop running is real.

But not the Market-Makers are stop running, the big guys do this and regarding quotes, the data comes from the exchange and not from a Market-Maker (like it is in Forex), each futures-platform shows the same bid/ask size, there is no difference from one broker to another.

Oh sorry, I'm talking Futures (your post was not live)

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #6 (permalink)
 rleplae 
Gits (Hooglede) Belgium
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader, Proprietary,
Broker: Ninjabrokerage/IQfeed + Synthetic datafeed
Trading: 6A, 6B, 6C, 6E, 6J, 6S, ES, NQ, YM, AEX, CL, NG, ZB, ZN, ZC, ZS, GC
 
rleplae's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,991 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 2,437 given, 5,802 received


jflaggs View Post
Thanks for the input (: My experience is US Stocks & Forex, so those are the markets I'm mainly concerned about here.

- Stop running is real - Again, how is it accomplished by the broker? Until someone can articulate this, it's fiction, not fact.

- Can't do anything about it? I've heard that using an ECN will solve the issue. Thoughts on that?

- Decipher the build up. My way of doing this is to set a decent stop below where I think stop running might reach. That's more of art than science, but get's me by.

Not necessary the broker is doing stop run, stop run is done by any party that thinks, if they can move
the price to level X, they only need a volume of Y and they will buy or sell, at an interesting price-level,
if stops to the low -> they buy, if stops to the high -> they sell

The skills requires : estimate how much volume is needed to get there, estimate what resting stop
orders are at those levels

If not enough muscle power, they collude with other parties

I'm talking on a central system like futures. In case of equities it's even different, because one of the
exchanges can be thin and if the arbitrage algo's are not running, the price can move without the other
market moving.

In case of Forex, as this is not regulated, this is more easy to manipulate, but if the broker is moving
the price too far from the market, that would not really be legal i think.

taking the other side of the trade, and not disclose it, i think there have been cases on that (FXCM
don't remember exaclty...

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #7 (permalink)
 rassi 
the congo
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: North sea oil rig
Trading: Cl
 
rassi's Avatar
 
Posts: 926 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 1,545 given, 1,198 received

On a basic level with a non ecn it works like this (and even some that say they are ecn but it's bs)

When you place a trade it's on their system not into an exchange. You place a stop. They know where you placed the trade. They know where your stop is.

They then hedge by placing orders into the actual fx market to cover themselves against any potential loss (or so they say)

But they might trade against you if they want.

They can widen the spread to whatever they want whenever they want.

They also have the ability to filter all your orders and choose to execute them or not. This is either done by an algorithm or by a human.

Is this hearsay by losing traders? No, but it's a good excuse!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #8 (permalink)
 tpredictor 
North Carolina
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation
Trading: es
 
Posts: 644 since Nov 2011

Yes, stop hunting is very real. However, the entire market is hunting for all stops. It is basically liquidity hunting. It is not personal, however. It is every single trader.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #9 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received

It absolutely happens, and I would argue that it's just the nature of the markets. I watch the 6J while I trade treasuries, and I've noticed that 6's can go against the cumulative delta / order flow for long periods of time. I theorize that this may be because the futures in the 6's are not the most influential market for currencies, inter-bank transactions are. So the large players that might keep price in line aren't there, and market makers can move it to where they want.

However, I've also seen it in treasuries on trend days. The market won't take the next leg until the market maker can convince enough people to fade the move.

Indicators like Cumulative Delta, Cumulative Delta Difference, and Commitment of Traders can be helpful here. GOMI has some good indicators in this direction, although you can easily write your own in NT8. You can see how many lots it typically takes to make something happen. You can also see how many are on each side of the market. Often the market maker will just go right after whichever side is bigger. Also keep an eye on the dom. If there's a lot of liquidity being offered despite velocity of trade being low, that's a good condition we're in that kind of action. Traders aren't as confident that they can get what they need with market orders, so there's more people in the queue.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to TWDsje for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #10 (permalink)
 ignacio90 
Madrid - Spain
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja
Trading: ES
 
ignacio90's Avatar
 
Posts: 149 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 664 given, 180 received


Like others said you hunting stops are real, but there is no way to know when it happens for retail traders. Basically, happens all the time

Let me show you an example of how the markets absorb sellers and how they can run stops:


Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to ignacio90 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #11 (permalink)
 forgiven 
Fletcher NC
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: nijia trader
Broker: A.M.P. I.Q. ....C.Q.G.
Trading: ym es
 
forgiven's Avatar
 
Posts: 669 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 155 given, 398 received

yes there is stop hunting but if you are new to trading they also take the other side of your trade. why would they not do that, 98% fail. if your trading the ES with a 4 to 8 tick stop , it will get hunted more so if it is 4 to 5 points. the only thing worse than no stop is a tight stop. the ES for example has about a 16 point range. 25 to 35 % of the ATR is 4 to 5 points. not 4 to 8 ticks. hope it helps

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #12 (permalink)
drm7
Virginia
 
 
Posts: 45 since Oct 2010
Thanks: 169 given, 45 received

I think that the term "stop hunting" is over-used by the trading community. People want to personalize the market and blame somebody for bad trades, so "market makers" that "picked off my stop" are at the top of the list. In reality, no one cares about a single small retail trader's order. They really don't.

That doesn't mean that there isn't "stop hunting" per se, it's just done more on an aggregate level, on a limited basis. What some algos do is try to push price to possible clusters of stops at obvious points, such as just above a recent high or just below a recent low. However, it takes a LOT of firepower and there is still a risk of getting run over.

On the FX side, I don't believe that the brokers try to run stops, but that doesn't mean they are completely innocent. What they do is play with the spread to protect themselves from volatility. You can see it when news hits - EURUSD will jump from 1 pip wide to 10-20 pips in an instant. However, OANDA or GAIN Capital have no interest at directly trying to manipulate a small order. In fact, they instantly lay off your order to another trader or institution a millisecond after filling yours. They always want to be "flat" at any given point in time. They are like bookmakers - they just want the spread, and have no opinion as to the market direction.

Of course, there are scammy "forex brokers" who will just steal your money. Why go through the trouble of writing a complex market manipulation algo when they can just fill a briefcase with your cash and run off to Thailand?

Just remember, the "market" doesn't care about you, or your little order. The market isn't a person - it is the aggregation of hundreds of different humans and computers acting at the same time, who all have different time horizons and objectives. Yes, there are numerous traps out there (i.e. recent highs and lows), but worry more about your system than some conspiracy theory.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to drm7 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #13 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received

Ok, let me try to be a little more specific about a stop hunting scenario.

The market has reached a point of balance where we trade in a 2-4 tick range. Institutional traders will watch to see which way the market wants to break out of that range. If enough people pile on to that trade they'll pull their liquidity going the opposite direction, and hit whatever else was at that level that they didn't own all at once. If it doesn't start going by itself they can help it along more. Some traders call this "the lure".

And I only say it happens because the one time I had an opportunity to see an institutional trader trade, that's exactly what they did. She knew what the market's position was from cumulative delta, and intentionally created a stop run to demonstrate the macro ability of their DOM to me (when you hold the macro key, actions queue up and don't execute until you let go of the key).

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #14 (permalink)
drm7
Virginia
 
 
Posts: 45 since Oct 2010
Thanks: 169 given, 45 received

I think that's a great example of what I would call "rational stop running." If you're trading in the 1-2 point range, it's the wild west. All sorts of algo wars and DOM readers battling it out. Stop runs are but one technique. Pulling bids and sweeping the book are others.

With all that said, I don't think that there is some "evil cabal" of "big money" that rigs the markets, like a lot of people believe - ESPECIALLY when you get away from noise trading for ticks. Yes, there are unscrupulous FX brokers who will re-quote you and push the spread away from you in a fast market (or simply steal your money), but trading on a) a regulated central exchange like the CME; or b) trading with a reputable FX broker (like OANDA or IB); and c) trading out of the noise, your biggest problem will be your system, not someone ripping you off.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to drm7 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #15 (permalink)
wmueller
Milwaukee, WI
 
 
Posts: 88 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 4 given, 46 received


TWDsje View Post
Ok, let me try to be a little more specific about a stop hunting scenario.

The market has reached a point of balance where we trade in a 2-4 tick range. Institutional traders will watch to see which way the market wants to break out of that range. If enough people pile on to that trade they'll pull their liquidity going the opposite direction, and hit whatever else was at that level that they didn't own all at once. If it doesn't start going by itself they can help it along more. Some traders call this "the lure".

And I only say it happens because the one time I had an opportunity to see an institutional trader trade, that's exactly what they did. She knew what the market's position was from cumulative delta, and intentionally created a stop run to demonstrate the macro ability of their DOM to me (when you hold the macro key, actions queue up and don't execute until you let go of the key).

So the institutional players are watching each other, waiting for one (or more) of them to tip the scale and then jump in. And with the algorithmic trading program helping to hide their intentions that they can unleash or inhibit with the press of a macro key, they get in and out of the market. Very interesting.

Do they look at anything else besides price and cumulative delta?

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #16 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received

The institutional trading that I was briefly exposed to gave traders all of the same indicators that retail traders will use. Things like VWAP, volume profile, etc. However, there's two pieces of information they have access to that retail traders don't get. The first is the institutional order flow. So they know when clients of theirs are making big orders, and can adjust their trading accordingly. The second is more complicated pricing setups. Basically they can see how an asset's price change will affect the price of other assets, and the overall cost of doing business. My sense was this just allows them to make better risk reward decisions. In terms of whether the next move is up or down they're using the same order flow everyone else is.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #17 (permalink)
 mastercraft29 
central florida
 
 
Posts: 192 since Jul 2014


jflaggs View Post
Hello,

*Please Note: I am looking for opinions from experienced traders, not noobs (like me) who may or may not be sore about how their broker is out to get them. I want an objective discussion if possible. Thanks.*

I hear a lot of accusations of Market Makers "stop hunting", trading against clients, and generally not respecting limit order prices. However, I have never understood HOW exactly Market Makers can accomplish price manipulation for their own gain.

Is there a person sitting behind a desk with a bid/ask knob that is creating the price movement in their favor or deliberately moving the bid/ask to take out your stops? If this is the case, then that would imply that different Market Makers will be giving completely separate quotes for the same instrument. If I pull up 5 minute charts from, say, Gain Capital and TradeStation, could I expect to see two completely different charts as each Market Maker cranks their bid/ask knob in their best interest?

I know that the example is silly, but the question is very serious. I need to know if stop hunting is a tin foil hat theory developed by losing traders or if I should seriously consider going with an ECN; and is an ECN the solution to this problem? If stop hunting and such are very true, is there any way a trader can avoid it? I don't want to play the victim role without fully understanding what's going on here.

Your input is appreciated

Thanks


I find this topic interesting and I think there is a problem in the "stop run" theory, which has to do with how markets operate. All markets are mathematically based. In order for any price level to be reached there has to be (atleast) one institution willing to buy, and (atleast) one institution willing to sell. Otherwise the price will not be reached.

What you are referring to as a "stop run" is in my opinion more likely a vacuum, or a miss read of the current market cycle and improper stop placement. A vacuum exists when bulls or bears step aside and wait for a price level to be reached, which sucks the market to the price level. For example if a bear can soon sell a few ticks higher above a swing high, why wouldn't they wait for the price to be reached?

When prices are in a trading range this is often where weak traders place stops (also known as a "skunk stop"). This is often beyond a swing point, which is likely to be tested. In a trading range, most breakouts fail and a swing stop is not appropriate because this is where institutions initiate trades, take profits, or scale in. A swing stop is only appropriate when there is a clear always in position and the market is in a trend.

I can understand the frustration and why a new trader might think the market is out to get them, but this is simply not the case. The markets do not care about you and are a reflection of institutional (and human) behavior.

However, stop placement is an important concept to understand, but largely depends on the style of trader you are (scalper, swing trader, or always in trader). For this reason i think it is best to first understand institutional behavior and the market cycle, before attempting to decipher proper stop placement.

Here is a good video example of the market cycle and how institutions initiate / manage trades. I have also discussed and shown examples of vacuums in videos but dont have time to find which ones.



Hope this helps,
Josh

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #18 (permalink)
 rleplae 
Gits (Hooglede) Belgium
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader, Proprietary,
Broker: Ninjabrokerage/IQfeed + Synthetic datafeed
Trading: 6A, 6B, 6C, 6E, 6J, 6S, ES, NQ, YM, AEX, CL, NG, ZB, ZN, ZC, ZS, GC
 
rleplae's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,991 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 2,437 given, 5,802 received


mastercraft29 View Post
I find this topic interesting and I think there is a problem in the "stop run" theory, which has to do with how markets operate. All markets are mathematically based. In order for any price level to be reached there has to be (atleast) one institution willing to buy, and (atleast) one institution willing to sell. Otherwise the price will not be reached.

What you are referring to as a "stop run" is in my opinion more likely a vacuum, or a miss read of the current market cycle and improper stop placement. A vacuum exists when bulls or bears step aside and wait for a price level to be reached, which sucks the market to the price level. For example if a bear can soon sell a few ticks higher above a swing high, why wouldn't they wait for the price to be reached?

When prices are in a trading range this is often where weak traders place stops (also known as a "skunk stop"). This is often beyond a swing point, which is likely to be tested. In a trading range, most breakouts fail and a swing stop is not appropriate because this is where institutions initiate trades, take profits, or scale in. A swing stop is only appropriate when there is a clear always in position and the market is in a trend.

I can understand the frustration and why a new trader might think the market is out to get them, but this is simply not the case. The markets do not care about you and are a reflection of institutional (and human) behavior.

However, stop placement is an important concept to understand, but largely depends on the style of trader you are (scalper, swing trader, or always in trader). For this reason i think it is best to first understand institutional behavior and the market cycle, before attempting to decipher proper stop placement.

Here is a good video example of the market cycle and how institutions initiate / manage trades. I have also discussed and shown examples of vacuums in videos but dont have time to find which ones.



Hope this helps,
Josh

I fundamentally disagree with your explanation.

A stop run is one or more (colusion) institutions pushing the price to a certain level
by swiping the book (yes the resting orders are executed, because the stops that
are sitting behind those resting orders are way more lucrative....

That is also why you see sometimes somebody 'pooking', that institution tries to
see if it's possible to move the price, if an iceberg is sitting there, that institution
may not have enough power...

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to rleplae for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #19 (permalink)
 mastercraft29 
central florida
 
 
Posts: 192 since Jul 2014


rleplae View Post
I fundamentally disagree with your explanation.

A stop run is one or more (colusion) institutions pushing the price to a certain level
by swiping the book (yes the resting orders are executed, because the stops that
are sitting behind those resting orders are way more lucrative....

That is also why you see sometimes somebody 'pooking', that institution tries to
see if it's possible to move the price, if an iceberg is sitting there, that institution
may not have enough power...


That is fine, you do not have to agree with me.

However there is a problem with your theory. If it were correct, and the institutions were "running stops" and there are stop orders at any given price level, prices would breakout strongly beyond the stop entry for atleast scalpers profit. But since prices instead reverse into the opposite direction, this means there were more limit order entrants (or profit taking) at the price level than institutions entering or exiting on stops.

How do i know this? Because if institutions were exiting or entering on a stop above a swing high for example, prices would rally strongly above the swing point. But when they do not (like in a TR), this means there were more institutions intitating or taking profits with limit orders at the price level. Therefore the stop run theory is not correct. The same can be said about individual bars. If institutions were selling below a bar on a stop, prices would sell off. When they do not and instead continue to rally, the institutions are buying below bars with limit orders (or one side is dominant).

Institutions can collude with one another sure, but you must also understand that there are an equal number of institutions "colluding" on the opposite side of the trade. Every trade and price has a mathematical basis behind it, with institutions on both sides. Therefore "noise" does not exist, and everything happens for a reason once you understand institutional behavior.

I also do not know what you mean by "pooking". But again, there is a flaw with this. And that is the fact there has to be more than one institution willing to buy at a price level to move the price. If an institution "may not" have enough power to move the market, it would not make mathematical sense for them to initiate the trade.

I think what you are referring to are high frequency trading firms, who will scalp for a single tick. But again, this goes back to the point i am making about the vacuum effect where one side steps aside and the HFT firms are then able to push the price to the level where the other side appears as if out of no where and the HFT firms take profits. So in this sense (if this is what you mean), then yes you are correct about them being able to move the market (due to the opposite side waiting, and causing a vacuum).

Hopefully you do not take this as me challenging you personally. Just providing an opposing view. Either way, makes for good conversation!

Josh

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #20 (permalink)
 mastercraft29 
central florida
 
 
Posts: 192 since Jul 2014




Ironically, soon after my last post there was a great example of my point in the EURUSD.

See image. Some traders might call these two arrows "stop runs". If this is the case, why did prices not breakout strongly below the low or above the high? Because this is a trading range, where institutions buy low sell high, scalp, use a wide stop and scale in when prices do not immediately go in their favor.

In example 1, prices broke out below the previous low but immediately reversed up. Some might think this is a stop run. But there is a problem. The bulls had already taken profits at the new high (small sideways TR, micro wedge and FF reversal). Most bulls were not willing to buy high in the trading range, and those who did used a wide stop like a measured move down and scaled in at the new low. This breif time of a one sided market led to a sell vacuum as the bulls stepped aside. Once at a new low, bulls who were flat bought the new low and bears bought to take profits, which led to the large tail and new high.

In example 2, bears had taken profits on 1 or used a wide stop and scaled in at the new high. Bulls who had bought 1, took profits at the new high, resulting in another failed breakout and reversal.
So my point is this; these are not stop runs because they already took profits.

If there were more stops at this location, prices would sell off strongly below the new low, or breakout strongly above the new high. If you are placing your stops in these locations, your stop location is the problem. Not the market "out to get you", or "running your stops"

Josh

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #21 (permalink)
 rleplae 
Gits (Hooglede) Belgium
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader, Proprietary,
Broker: Ninjabrokerage/IQfeed + Synthetic datafeed
Trading: 6A, 6B, 6C, 6E, 6J, 6S, ES, NQ, YM, AEX, CL, NG, ZB, ZN, ZC, ZS, GC
 
rleplae's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,991 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 2,437 given, 5,802 received


mastercraft29 View Post



Ironically, soon after my last post there was a great example of my point in the EURUSD.

See image. Some traders might call these two arrows "stop runs". If this is the case, why did prices not breakout strongly below the low or above the high? Because this is a trading range, where institutions buy low sell high, scalp, use a wide stop and scale in when prices do not immediately go in their favor.

In example 1, prices broke out below the previous low but immediately reversed up. Some might think this is a stop run. But there is a problem. The bulls had already taken profits at the new high (small sideways TR, micro wedge and FF reversal). Most bulls were not willing to buy high in the trading range, and those who did used a wide stop like a measured move down and scaled in at the new low. This breif time of a one sided market led to a sell vacuum as the bulls stepped aside. Once at a new low, bulls who were flat bought the new low and bears bought to take profits, which led to the large tail and new high.

In example 2, bears had taken profits on 1 or used a wide stop and scaled in at the new high. Bulls who had bought 1, took profits at the new high, resulting in another failed breakout and reversal.
So my point is this; these are not stop runs because they already took profits.

If there were more stops at this location, prices would sell off strongly below the new low, or breakout strongly above the new high. If you are placing your stops in these locations, your stop location is the problem. Not the market "out to get you", or "running your stops"

Josh

I don't see why on your chart those levels corresponding to the arrows would be levels where 'stops'
are setting, in either of the two directions.

As those are not levels for stops, they can also not be stop runs.

Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #22 (permalink)
 xplorer 
Site Moderator
London UK
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Broker: S5
Trading: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,380 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 13,559 given, 13,069 received

I can't remember whether anyone has already commented about this but I think "stop hunting", if and when it does take place, is of no concern to the retail trader.

Nobody who has the capital and the bandwidth to go on a stop run is interested in the 1, 2, 10 or even the 20 lot trades.

Always a battle between institutional actors, hedge funds and what not.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to xplorer for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #23 (permalink)
 mastercraft29 
central florida
 
 
Posts: 192 since Jul 2014


xplorer View Post
I can't remember whether anyone has already commented about this but I think "stop hunting", if and when it does take place, is of no concern to the retail trader.

Nobody who has the capital and the bandwidth to go on a stop run is interested in the 1, 2, 10 or even the 20 lot trades.

Always a battle between institutional actors, hedge funds and what not.



Couldnt agree more. As a trader, our job is to follow the institutions!


@rleplae - the stop location would be beyond the swing point, which is the point i am making that traders are miss reading the price action and should not place a stop at this level (when in a trading range). However most new traders do not know this and consider this a "swing stop" and then wonder why they were stopped out, and assume it is a "stop run."

But you now have me baffled. Where would you consider a stop run as taking place if my example is not one in your eyes? If you dont consider a swing point as a place to put a stop and therefore an example of a "stop run" then you must consider ANY move and ANY price on a chart to be a stop run!

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #24 (permalink)
 rleplae 
Gits (Hooglede) Belgium
 
Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader, Proprietary,
Broker: Ninjabrokerage/IQfeed + Synthetic datafeed
Trading: 6A, 6B, 6C, 6E, 6J, 6S, ES, NQ, YM, AEX, CL, NG, ZB, ZN, ZC, ZS, GC
 
rleplae's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,991 since Sep 2013
Thanks: 2,437 given, 5,802 received


mastercraft29 View Post
Couldnt agree more. As a trader, our job is to follow the institutions!


@rleplae - the stop location would be beyond the swing point, which is the point i am making that traders are miss reading the price action and should not place a stop at this level (when in a trading range). However most new traders do not know this and consider this a "swing stop" and then wonder why they were stopped out, and assume it is a "stop run."

But you now have me baffled. Where would you consider a stop run as taking place if my example is not one in your eyes? If you dont consider a swing point as a place to put a stop and therefore an example of a "stop run" then you must consider ANY move and ANY price on a chart to be a stop run!


My trades on 6E are on the chart : (I was long)
my stops were behind the low of day.


Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #25 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


xplorer View Post
Nobody who has the capital and the bandwidth to go on a stop run is interested in the 1, 2, 10 or even the 20 lot trades.

Absolutely true.

With an average number of

ES: ~3.x
NQ: ~1.x
FDAX: ~1.x
etc.

contracts per trade during the main hours at the moment, most "stop runs" are simply
plain retail dabbler tinfoil hat theories.

Just an ES snapshot for today (other days aren't better at the moment):



Or for the NQ which definitely had a tinfoil hat stop run today:


Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #26 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received

I don't believe the charts shown here can really be used as examples because they don't show you the order flow. If we come up to a level and go through it only to immediately swing back the other way, you simply cannot make any assumptions about why that happened without seeing the order flow. It could be that liquidity simply pulled out of the way. It may have been that trading above that level generated new interest. When it stopped it may have been an iceberg order, new sellers coming out of nowhere, or simply a lack of interest at the higher price.

The only way I know it's a stop is by watching the orders come in live. The price goes up two ticks all at once, and eats up all of the liquidity before anyone can pull. Things can only happen this fast if it's being triggered by resting stop orders on the exchange. Even then it's impossible to know for sure in some instances.

So let's watch some examples from yesterday that I believe to be "stop runs". First lets set the stage though. Yesterday was a trend up day. We traded up a point and a half as we filled in the rollover gap.

As we approach the high of the day you can see iceberg orders absorbing the market sell orders at 09. This is often a great setup for a stop run that will take us to new highs on a trend day. In such a level break setup they'll hit 10 with market orders, and then get out at 11/12 with limit sell orders. However, that's not what happened. Instead they clear 8 with two large market orders, and then hit 07. At this point you see all the stops trigger taking us to 05.
This is larger players goading people into positions. They pushed it up to where it was specifically so that people would put stop orders at 07/06.

Start at 1:28:30


Why did this happen? We're having a big up day, and we know that eventually we end up almost a point higher. Why is there a stop run down? Look at the cumulative delta. For a while we were skimming the daily lows in cumulative delta despite being near the highs. The setup happened only after cumulative delta starting coming back up again. In other words short sellers had already exited, and there were more longs than there were shorts. The risk reward ratio for this guy favors pushing it down because there's more people to stop out that direction. The level break player could have gotten 2 or so ticks out of breaking it to the highs, but instead he got 4 ticks slamming it down. The trader probably made 500 contracts * 4 ticks * $31.25 = $62,500 in profit.

It's not until the market has gone sufficiently short that they decide to pull the level break to the upside which is the start of a move that eventually takes us up well over 16 ticks.

Start at 1:59:02


Long story short they stopped out a bunch of longs only to take another measured move higher. Stop hunting is totally a thing.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #27 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


TWDsje View Post
The trader probably made 500 contracts * 4 ticks * $31.25 = $62,500 in profit.

If you take a look at today's ZB numbers you can easily see that the assumption that anyone would get
a 500 contracts fill at CME/Globex at the moment is pure nonsense.


Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #28 (permalink)
 Grantx 
Legendary no drama Llama
Reading UK
 
Experience: None
 
Posts: 1,787 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 2,807 given, 5,024 received

Here is what I think.

Unless you have worked with very large funds then you are simply speculating (as I am with the following post). Saying that institutions don’t care about small orders is only 50% true. They don’t care about individual speculators holding 1-20 contracts, but they DO care when there are one hundred+ speculators holding 1-20 contracts each.

I am going to imagine that my client wants me to buy 10,000+ contracts on CL somewhere in the range of 46-47 or better. I cannot simply buy everything at once. For obvious reasons
So what do I do?

I have to create liquidity by enticing as many short players into the market as possible so that when I start getting into my long position, no one is going to notice that a big player has just entered. I wait for the right time by gently buying to the market at my price range and as more and more liquidity enters(shorts), I soak it all up by scattering resting orders and also gently hitting into price. Just enough so that no one is alerted to my presence just yet.



When the time is right I enter a big chunk of orders, clearing out offers and letting my intention be known.

I know my huge order of 10,000+ is more than likely going to reverse direction and speculator sentiment because:
a. Everyone would have noticed my buying which would look like an iceberg to the order flow enthusiasts.
b. Chartists will notice a pinbar rejection and some will reverse positions into a long (this helps me) and others will hold their shorts until they eventually puke (which helps me later).
c. Wyckoff speculators and a few alert players would have seen the obvious signs preceding the move up.
d. I would be going with the larger trend.
e. All those short that Ive just steamrolled have realised they are stuck in the cross-hairs of a heavy artillery bombardment armed with nothing but a twig.

I do believe that stop hunting is a strategy employed by larger institutions, and a very effective and necessary one at that!


Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to Grantx for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #29 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received

Same numbers for the CL:



I.e.: In order to get 10000 contracts via CME/Globex, one would have an average expectation of
more than 5000 partial fills / trades at the moment during the main hours.

a) What kind of hunting would that be? Slicing a rabbit by 5000 cuts?
b) Why do you think are the average trades so small?
c) Why do you think block trades and CME Clearport exist that you don't even see in your order flow when trades are closed?

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #30 (permalink)
 Grantx 
Legendary no drama Llama
Reading UK
 
Experience: None
 
Posts: 1,787 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 2,807 given, 5,024 received


choke35 View Post
Same numbers for the CL:



I.e.: In order to get 10000 contracts via CME/Globex, one would have an average expectation of
more than 5000 partial fills / trades at the moment during the main hours.

a) What kind of hunting would that be? Slicing a rabbit by 5000 cuts?
b) Why do you think are the average trades so small?
c) Why do you think block trades and CME Clearport exist that you don't even see in your order flow when trades are closed?

I dont know what your attachment means, can you explain?
At 10:41:18 it say volume/sec = 69. Does this mean 69 contracts swapping hands every second with the average trade size being 2? 69 contracts every second adds up quick (am I mis interpreting the data).


a) I dont know. Why would big corporations pay millions for quants and scripts to scalp thousands of trades every minute of the day if the didnt care about the small stuff?
b) I really dont know. Can you explain?
c) Yeah I forgot about that. Good point.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Grantx for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #31 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


Grantx View Post
I dont know what your attachment means, can you explain?
At 10:41:18 it say volume/sec = 69. Does this mean 69 contracts swapping hands every second with the average trade size being 2? 69 contracts every second adds up quick (am I mis interpreting the data).


a) I dont know. Why would big corporations pay millions for quants and scripts to scalp thousands of trades every minute of the day if the didnt care about the small stuff?
b) I really dont know. Can you explain?
c) Yeah I forgot about that. Good point.

Yes, the numbers show the volume traded per sec and the average trade size during this time bracket.


Some clues regarding a) and b):

ad a)
The small stuff adds up. But in contrast to ancient times markets also have become much more efficient.
Which means that there is only small stuff to be expected while the large bait has virtually disappeared
which most of yesterday's traders extol in their memoirs. The existing traders / systems are battling for
ever-smaller fills.

ad b)
The average trade size in most liquid futures is below 5 during the main hours in the meantime.
CL block trades e.g. start at 50 (at the moment) which in turn means that you will not see any fills above
50 when they are closed unless the buyer and the seller want you to see it (or both don't
have Clearport permissions and/or no clue what they are doing - which I'd rule out concerning that size).
The powerful buy side which was the classical bait in ancient times and during the golden ages of HFT has
switched venues. You can monitor the leave by the dwindling volume of CME, Eurex, NYSE (regarding stocks)
etc main venues and main hours which is ongoing for several years.

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #32 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received


choke35 View Post
If you take a look at today's ZB numbers you can easily see that the assumption that anyone would get
a 500 contracts fill at CME/Globex at the moment is pure nonsense.


Did you watch the video? You can see the guy's lots come through the reconstructed tape. Two 250 lots and then a 50 at the next price.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #33 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


TWDsje View Post
Did you watch the video? You can see the guy's lots come through the reconstructed tape. Two 250 lots and then a 50 at the next price.

You got it: You saw a reconstruction. At the time when you trade as a retail trader or more precise: when the trade
was closed you wouldn't have seen anything (unless they wanted you to see it).

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #34 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received


choke35 View Post
You got it: You saw a reconstruction. At the time when you trade as a retail trader or more precise: when the trade
was closed you wouldn't have seen anything (unless they wanted you to see it).

Err, what do you think the reconstructed tape is exactly? What you see in the video is exactly what I saw when trading that day. I just record my screen for the whole session.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #35 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


TWDsje View Post
Err, what do you think the reconstructed tape is exactly? What you see in the video is exactly what I saw when trading that day. I just record my screen for the whole session.

I suggest you invest some time reading the CME block trade rules - and esp the rules regarding trade disclosure.
In the end you will find that you have 2 components in your reconstructed tape: a) A realtime component that
consists of the small change and trades that were disclosed when they were closed and b) trades that max out
diclosure times.

Compared with ancient times the b) part of your reconstructed tape is delayed data.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #36 (permalink)
 Grantx 
Legendary no drama Llama
Reading UK
 
Experience: None
 
Posts: 1,787 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 2,807 given, 5,024 received

Thanks for explaining.

Has the large bait really disappeared or are they still present just in a different guise? Instead of hanging large bait out there, they influence market direction using a multitude of different strategies.

On the block trades:
They are useful for large trades that want to go un noticed however you are not considering institutions whos objective it is to influence market sentiment and direction.


choke35 View Post
The powerful buy side which was the classical bait in ancient times and during the golden ages of HFT has
switched venues. You can monitor the leave by the dwindling volume of CME, Eurex, NYSE (regarding stocks)
etc main venues and main hours which is ongoing for several years.

What do you mean by this? Where have they gone?

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to Grantx for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #37 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received


choke35 View Post
I suggest you invest some time reading the CME block trade rules - and esp the rules regarding trade disclosure.
In the end you will find that you have 2 components in your reconstructed tape: a) A realtime component that
consists of the small change and trades that were disclosed when they were closed and b) trades that max out
diclosure times.

Compared with ancient times the b) part of your reconstructed tape is delayed data.

What makes you think these particular trades are from delayed data? There was about 250 bid, and that's what both of the sweep orders at that price came out to.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #38 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


Grantx View Post
Thanks for explaining.

Has the large bait really disappeared or are they still present just in a different guise? Instead of hanging large bait out there, they influence market direction using a multitude of different strategies.

On the block trades:
They are useful for large trades that want to go un noticed however you are not considering institutions whos objective it is to influence market sentiment and direction.



What do you mean by this? Where have they gone?

In many regards futures markets have evolved in a similar style like stock markets some years before under the
impression of HFT. In the main market, the majority of trades is 1 contract in the meantime. The reason is simple:
It's the cheapest way to find out if the current state is noise or if a 1 contract increment causes any move.

Under such circumstances everybody who reveals more information than that is a target. If you are a regular
target e.g. because it's part of your job as a funds manager, you can accept that (and lose money from the start)
or switch venues - dark pools or new exchanges like IEX for stocks; or block trading / Clearport for futures; or
off-exchange trades between funds, banks, brokers etc.

The second part is strategic disclosure: You choose your venues and disclosure times in order to send signals.
(Some of these signals end up as "fat finger" headlines because nobody is expecting large disclosed orders
or fills in the open market venues anymore. Regularly followed by some investigations.)

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #39 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


TWDsje View Post
What makes you think these particular trades are from delayed data?

CME regarding block trades: "Ability to execute a large transaction at a fair and reasonable single price."
You have a single transaction that's more than 75 times the average trade size.

When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #40 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received

Just to give an impression of the magnitude of potential dicrepancies that are caused by Clearport trades:

For the E-minies and CL the minimum threshold is 50 contracts, the reporting window is 5 mins.
I.e. using Clearport trades >=50 contracts leaves other market participants without a notice
for up to five mins.

Looking at ES 9/6 numbers from above ( :
Around 9:00, ~98 contracts are traded per second. If you entered a Clearport trade during that time period and other
Clearport trades aside, nearly 30.000 contracts (98 cons/sec x 60 (secs/min) x 5 (mins (at max)) = 29400 cons) could
have been traded before other market participants even learn about that trade.

(For other products and times the reporting window is up to 15mins.)

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #41 (permalink)
 ratfink 
Birmingham UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: TST/Rithmic
Trading: YM/Gold
 
ratfink's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,651 since Dec 2012
Thanks: 17,422 given, 8,403 received

Reminds me of the first time I got to walk into a London market maker (FTSE250) when he explained that Level II data was a waste of time because his serious trades wouldn't even be on there. What I also find fascinating is that with all the venue changes and hiding and revealing phases the fundamental chart patterns haven't changed.

Cheers and thanks for all the great info.

Travel Well
Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 6 users say Thank You to ratfink for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #42 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received


choke35 View Post
CME regarding block trades: "Ability to execute a large transaction at a fair and reasonable single price."
You have a single transaction that's more than 75 times the average trade size.

When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck.

The minimum block trade size for bonds during the RTH timeframe is 3,000. In other words the orders we're talking about aren't big enough to be block trades.

Block Trades

And according to my understanding you can view block trades here, and no such trades occur on that product during that time:

Block Trades - CME Group

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #43 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


TWDsje View Post
And according to my understanding you can view block trades here, and no such trades occur on that product during that time:

Block Trades - CME Group

For equity futures you will find about 0 trades all the time if you choose that way since virtually all other
Clearport trades use correct rulebook flags so that they can be matched with the order flow at their time
of disclosure.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #44 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received


choke35 View Post
For equity futures you will find about 0 trades all the time if you choose that way since virtually all other
Clearport trades use correct rulebook flags so that they can be matched with the order flow at their time
of disclosure.

For equity futures (SP) you'll find 0 trades all the time because block trades aren't available in that product.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #45 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


TWDsje View Post
For equity futures (SP) you'll find 0 trades all the time because block trades aren't available in that product.

I give it up.

Why do you think a Clearport venue exists for the ES?
Just to have a permanent fallback or treat large trades like retail?


Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #46 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received


choke35 View Post
I give it up.

Why do you think a Clearport venue exists for the ES?
Just to have a permanent fallback or treat large trades like retail?

I don't know, but that does not prove that block trades for ES are available.

Why does the Futures Block Threshold for S&P 500 say not available?


Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #47 (permalink)
 rassi 
the congo
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: North sea oil rig
Trading: Cl
 
rassi's Avatar
 
Posts: 926 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 1,545 given, 1,198 received


choke35 View Post
I give it up.



Why do you think a Clearport venue exists for the ES?

Just to have a permanent fallback or treat large trades like retail?






And that's without sigma x etc....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to rassi for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #48 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


TWDsje View Post
For equity futures (SP) you'll find 0 trades all the time because block trades aren't available in that product.

Just one example where block trades clear into the ES via Clearport or alternatively via CME Direct -
both times with the well-known report window:


Basis Trade at Index Close (BTIC) Block Trades - CME Group

And there are several other large trade types like e.g. EFP, EPR, EFS that never show up when
the trade is closed.

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #49 (permalink)
 tpredictor 
North Carolina
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation
Trading: es
 
Posts: 644 since Nov 2011

I have to catch up on everything in this thread but let me provide my perspective on some of the ideas I've seen expressed. First, I think the market as a whole is engaged for stop hunting. Why? If you are on the right side of the market and a stop run occurs then that's the optimal take profit. It gives you liquidity to take profit. Let me say, I do not think it is necessarily an institutional trader but rather every single trader is hunting stops which is why it is virtually impossible to avoid it. If you prefer to take your profit at the optimal point (where it reverses) then you are, in effect, hunting someones stops. Mathematically, it is an anti-optimization feature. The market doesn't like optimization because optimization allows for "cheating" in the sense that if you can optimize your trading you can make an outsize return without risking as much. So, that's a big no-no. In effect, as you seek the optimal stop, your adversary seeks the optimal target which makes it difficult for both of you.

Now, some people have mentioned the vacuum effect. This is not what I will call a stop run. The vacuum effect is real though. Vacuum occurs when aggressive bulls/bears take out a position and the market doesn't move in their favor. The liquidity providers pull the market above/below them to trigger their near to market stops. This does happen. It happens primarily in the overnight. It is often triggered by a resting order imbalance.

A true stop run though is when aggressive buyers/sellers are able to move the market above/below prior swing lows/highs. This happens and is very clear because a ton of orders are executed. Here is the important thing to know about stop runs: while stop runs often will mark the top/bottom -- they are just as likely to keep triggering on a trend day as more and more traders like to call the top/bottom. But, yes it is often very short term traders who trigger the stops because they are only targeting a few ticks. I suspect it is the HFT too and that they create the resting order book imbalances, as well.

One explanation from traditional technical analysis for stop runs is that large traders need to test the market at the extents before placing their large orders. This makes some sense. Before you sell a ton of contracts, it might pay to bid the market up so make sure that nobody else is interested in buying. After you get the confirmation that no one wants to buy, you have confidence to sell. This makes sense but it could also be explained that higher uncertainty is a characteristic of tops/bottoms and so range testing is just a product of that.

However, when trading for a few ticks: I did not observe any stop runs. I think it is because the markets are so efficient that very few retail traders able to scalp. If retailers that are scalping then they are clearly using advanced order types. So, if you get stopped out for a few ticks and it isn't after hours then it is probably not a stop run. I suspect that sometimes stop runs are caused by hedging behavior, as well. This was true a few months back when I suspect the institutions were selling the NASDAQ and buying the S&P for hedging purposes.

I guess there are all kinds of institutions engaged in all kinds of trading. However, what I have seen is that institutions might try to slow down the buying at new highs so they can buy at lower prices. This is most common on strong trend days when you see them getting active in that way.

As for block trades, they are already executed. So, I do not see why they would move the market one way or another.

These are just my 2 cents worth. I do not truly know what any institution is doing. However, market rules do explicitly state that any sort of gaming behavior is not allowed.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #50 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received


choke35 View Post
Just one example where block trades clear into the ES via Clearport or alternatively via CME Direct -
both times with the well-known report window:


Basis Trade at Index Close (BTIC) Block Trades - CME Group

And there are several other large trade types like e.g. EFP, EPR, EFS that never show up when
the trade is closed.

So you are asserting that the 250 lot orders that I see come through on the jigsaw reconstructed tape are one of BTIC, EFP, EPR, or EFS transactions?

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #51 (permalink)
 Grantx 
Legendary no drama Llama
Reading UK
 
Experience: None
 
Posts: 1,787 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 2,807 given, 5,024 received


tpredictor View Post
Now, some people have mentioned the vacuum effect. This is not what I will call a stop run. The vacuum effect is real though. Vacuum occurs when aggressive bulls/bears take out a position and the market doesn't move in their favor. The liquidity providers pull the market above/below them to trigger their near to market stops. This does happen. It happens primarily in the overnight. It is often triggered by a resting order imbalance.

Can you expand on this vacuum effect please? I dont understand what you mean.


tpredictor View Post
One explanation from traditional technical analysis for stop runs is that large traders need to test the market at the extents before placing their large orders. This makes some sense. Before you sell a ton of contracts, it might pay to bid the market up so make sure that nobody else is interested in buying. After you get the confirmation that no one wants to buy, you have confidence to sell. This makes sense but it could also be explained that higher uncertainty is a characteristic of tops/bottoms and so range testing is just a product of that.

In what form does this confirmation come? Aggressive selling or passive buying? What are the signs that this activity is afoot?

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #52 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received

I also want to address something stated in an earlier post. You posted the average size per transaction as proof that it's ridiculous that such a large order could be filled. The problem is that this statistic is showing you the orders before they are reconstructed. A trader could use a large 250 lot to clear a price, but the CME reports it back as the hundreds of limit orders that were filled. The jigsaw reconstructed tape I believe uses the timestamps to reconstruct the actual trade size.

So what we see in the video is a trader using multiple large market orders to clear a price. You then see hundreds of smaller orders immediately hit the market. This is the stop run. None of this has anything to do with block trades which are not very common in the treasury markets as far as the tools I have available show.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #53 (permalink)
 tpredictor 
North Carolina
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, Tradestation
Trading: es
 
Posts: 644 since Nov 2011

Regarding vacuum effect, you have to have software where you can view the actual orders to see it. I have seen it in the ES but only overnight or when liquidity is lower. The effect at least very clearly looks like a manipulation. An example of the vacuum is you get strong selling at new lows and then the orders are pulled above the market very fast. The key to a vacuum is that either no orders or very few orders transact-- hence the trap. An explanation is that a large liquidity provider, took the other side of the trade and simply pulls the resting orders above the market to trigger the aggressive sellers stop orders. The pattern is aggressive selling at new lows, resting orders pulled above, and few/no transactions. Vacuum effect is not going to be more then a say a few to several ticks but can mark swing lows or highs.

It happens too fast generally to take advantage of it from a discretionary phase. However, the signaling is typically a large order book imbalance. So the conditions would be 1. A lower liquidity market, 2. Aggressive selling at lows, 3. A large buy side imbalance shows, 4. Orders above the sellers are pulled and either only a few contracts trade or no contracts trade. For it to be a true vacuum, I think you need #4 or else it could just be explained by the order book imbalance. I have seen it in the ES in the overnights. I do not think it is likely to occur during RTH.

I'm not sure I'd consider it a stop run. Maybe a trap but sure it could be a form of stop run but not the classical high volume stop run. I think the key to measuring a stop run is to see how fast the orders hit the level. If they are using stop orders then after you get a single trade then all the stop orders should trigger unless they are using volume trigger stops or other advanced order types. If the buying/selling comes in later then it wasn't a stop order. If you track the number of orders that hit a level first then you can get an idea of the maximum number of stops held at a level. If only a few orders hit a level and nothing triggers then you know the market is trading very efficiently because there aren't any retail traders. Most of the activity now is professional.



Grantx View Post
Can you expand on this vacuum effect please? I dont understand what you mean.



In what form does this confirmation come? Aggressive selling or passive buying? What are the signs that this activity is afoot?


Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #54 (permalink)
 AnoTrader 
Malaysia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierrachat,ATAS,Bookmap
Trading: crude,forex
 
Posts: 4 since Sep 2017
Thanks: 2 given, 1 received


tpredictor View Post
Regarding vacuum effect, you have to have software where you can view the actual orders to see it. I have seen it in the ES but only overnight or when liquidity is lower. The effect at least very clearly looks like a manipulation. An example of the vacuum is you get strong selling at new lows and then the orders are pulled above the market very fast. The key to a vacuum is that either no orders or very few orders transact-- hence the trap. An explanation is that a large liquidity provider, took the other side of the trade and simply pulls the resting orders above the market to trigger the aggressive sellers stop orders. The pattern is aggressive selling at new lows, resting orders pulled above, and few/no transactions. Vacuum effect is not going to be more then a say a few to several ticks but can mark swing lows or highs.

It happens too fast generally to take advantage of it from a discretionary phase. However, the signaling is typically a large order book imbalance. So the conditions would be 1. A lower liquidity market, 2. Aggressive selling at lows, 3. A large buy side imbalance shows, 4. Orders above the sellers are pulled and either only a few contracts trade or no contracts trade. For it to be a true vacuum, I think you need #4 or else it could just be explained by the order book imbalance. I have seen it in the ES in the overnights. I do not think it is likely to occur during RTH.

I'm not sure I'd consider it a stop run. Maybe a trap but sure it could be a form of stop run but not the classical high volume stop run. I think the key to measuring a stop run is to see how fast the orders hit the level. If they are using stop orders then after you get a single trade then all the stop orders should trigger unless they are using volume trigger stops or other advanced order types. If the buying/selling comes in later then it wasn't a stop order. If you track the number of orders that hit a level first then you can get an idea of the maximum number of stops held at a level. If only a few orders hit a level and nothing triggers then you know the market is trading very efficiently because there aren't any retail traders. Most of the activity now is professional.

the liquidty vacuum can be see using the footprint chart


Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #55 (permalink)
 AI3000 
Ann Arbor, Michigan
 
Experience: Master
Platform: Tradovate, NT
Broker: CQG/TT
Trading: CL, VX, ES
 
AI3000's Avatar
 
Posts: 50 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 5 given, 31 received

That's a fact ... there are algo designed to exploit orders in the book and take those stops


Sent from my iPhone using futures.io

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #56 (permalink)
wmueller
Milwaukee, WI
 
 
Posts: 88 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 4 given, 46 received


choke35 View Post
I suggest you invest some time reading the CME block trade rules - and esp the rules regarding trade disclosure.
In the end you will find that you have 2 components in your reconstructed tape: a) A realtime component that
consists of the small change and trades that were disclosed when they were closed and b) trades that max out
diclosure times.

Compared with ancient times the b) part of your reconstructed tape is delayed data.

I'm interested in CL so I went to the CME Block Trades webpage and searched for the CLV17 trades for yesterday 9/12/17 and copied the list into excel and did a little statistical analysis. There were 28 trades yesterday with a total volume of 11,422 contracts. Average volume = 407.9, Stdev = 413.9, Median = 275. There were 4 trades of at least 1000 contracts. Total volume, from my daily chart (data provided by CQG) for 9/12/17 was 498,903 contracts. The first block trade occurred at 0715 CT and the last occurred at 1412 CT. The source for all the trades was listed as "CPC" which, I'll wager, means ClearPort. So if my figures are correct, block trading was about 2.3% of all "transparent" trading.

One of the reasons I came to the futures market was because I thought there was greater transparency and the absence of dark pools, as well as better directional volume information; but I must admit my increased awareness of block trading and clearport has somewhat diminished my enthusiasm for CME products.

Thanks Choke 35 for enlightening me.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to wmueller for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #57 (permalink)
 Grantx 
Legendary no drama Llama
Reading UK
 
Experience: None
 
Posts: 1,787 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 2,807 given, 5,024 received


wmueller View Post
I'm interested in CL so I went to the CME Block Trades webpage and searched for the CLV17 trades for yesterday 9/12/17 and copied the list into excel and did a little statistical analysis. There were 28 trades yesterday with a total volume of 11,422 contracts. Average volume = 407.9, Stdev = 413.9, Median = 275. There were 4 trades of at least 1000 contracts. Total volume, from my daily chart (data provided by CQG) for 9/12/17 was 498,903 contracts. The first block trade occurred at 0715 CT and the last occurred at 1412 CT. The source for all the trades was listed as "CPC" which, I'll wager, means ClearPort. So if my figures are correct, block trading was about 2.3% of all "transparent" trading.

One of the reasons I came to the futures market was because I thought there was greater transparency and the absence of dark pools, as well as better directional volume information; but I must admit my increased awareness of block trading and clearport has somewhat diminished my enthusiasm for CME products.

Thanks Choke 35 for enlightening me.

That’s really interesting, thanks for sharing.
2.3% is negligible especially considering that block trades are matched with corresponding orders and have absolutely no influence on the movement of price (as far as I understand). I suppose you wouldn’t get an accurate volume profile because those large trades would not show on your charts but the information wouldn't help you anyway.

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #58 (permalink)
wmueller
Milwaukee, WI
 
 
Posts: 88 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 4 given, 46 received

I called CQG and asked if and when ClearPort trades are reported on the tape. The response was not encouraging.

The "settlements" get reported by CQG at the end of the day.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to wmueller for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #59 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


Grantx View Post
2.3% is negligible ...

That's a wrong conclusion.

2.3% of daily volume doesn't reflect the influence of these orders by any means.

At the moment CL is trading at a market depth of 1000-1200 contracts on either side.
I.e.: With 11k contracts you can blow off the entire bid or ask about 10 times a day if
you target the small change. Or "sweep it" as they gently call it ...

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #60 (permalink)
 TWDsje   is a Vendor
 
 
Posts: 638 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 19 given, 683 received


wmueller View Post
I called CQG and asked if and when ClearPort trades are reported on the tape. The response was not encouraging.

The "settlements" get reported by CQG at the end of the day.

Thanks for this information. I spent a lot of time trying to find out if those orders even show up in the CQG feed, but found no information on it online.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #61 (permalink)
 Grantx 
Legendary no drama Llama
Reading UK
 
Experience: None
 
Posts: 1,787 since Oct 2016
Thanks: 2,807 given, 5,024 received


choke35 View Post
That's a wrong conclusion.

2.3% of daily volume doesn't reflect the influence of these orders by any means.

At the moment CL is trading at a market depth of 1000-1200 contracts on either side.
I.e.: With 11k contracts you can blow off the entire bid or ask about 10 times a day if
you target the small change. Or "sweep it" as they gently call it ...

We are talking about 2 different scenarios.
2% becomes significant when your aim is to influence market direction by clearing out levels on the exchange.
2% block trades is meaningless because they are handled off the exchange so the 1 contract warriors populating the order book dont even notice.
What am I missing here?

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #62 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


Grantx View Post
We are talking about 2 different scenarios.
2% becomes significant when your aim is to influence market direction by clearing out levels on the exchange.
2% block trades is meaningless because they are handled off the exchange so the 1 contract warriors populating the order book dont even notice.
What am I missing here?

The only trades without any impact are - by definition - noise trades.

a) With e.g. an average of ~2 contracts per trade in CL ( )
any larger trades potentially influence prices.
b) Combine a sweep trade vs retail sheep at the CME with an offsetting block trade at Clearport and you are
as close to a free lunch as one can get.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #63 (permalink)
 rassi 
the congo
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: North sea oil rig
Trading: Cl
 
rassi's Avatar
 
Posts: 926 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 1,545 given, 1,198 received


Grantx View Post
We are talking about 2 different scenarios.

2% becomes significant when your aim is to influence market direction by clearing out levels on the exchange.

2% block trades is meaningless because they are handled off the exchange so the 1 contract warriors populating the order book dont even notice.

What am I missing here?



Grant, using clear port or a dark pool enables a big boy to hedge positions which they take for the express purpose of providing liquidity.

There are no market makers in futures but it's effectively the same scenario.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to rassi for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #64 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


choke35 View Post
The only trades without any impact are - by definition - noise trades.

a) With e.g. an average of ~2 contracts per trade in CL ( )
any larger trades potentially influence prices.
b) Combine a sweep trade vs retail sheep at the CME with an offsetting block trade at Clearport and you are
as close to a free lunch as one can get.


rassi View Post
Grant, using clear port or a dark pool enables a big boy to hedge positions which they take for the express purpose of providing liquidity.

There are no market makers in futures but it's effectively the same scenario.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


@Grantx

@rassi 's example is the bread and butter of many HFT businesses that trade for own account.
My example ( b) ) is the bread and butter of many brokers with institutional customers or other kinds
of access to significant orders.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #65 (permalink)
 Sazon 
Roswell, GA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: Futures
 
Sazon's Avatar
 
Posts: 234 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 928 given, 459 received


choke35 View Post
The only trades without any impact are - by definition - noise trades.

....
b) Combine a sweep trade vs retail sheep at the CME with an offsetting block trade at Clearport and you are
as close to a free lunch as one can get.

If I understand you correctly....that would be considered a "wash trade" and hence would be prohibited by the CME.

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #66 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


Sazon View Post
If I understand you correctly....that would be considered a "wash trade" and hence would be prohibited by the CME.

Nope.

If a broker is responsible for buying or selling a certain amount of contracts for account of
a third party
, that isn't a wash trade.

The customer, e.g. a fund, couldn't buy/sell the large amount of contracts without being ripped.
So the transaction is delegated to the broker to buy/sell the amount on behalf of the fund by
using the regular CME order flow at suitable points in time. That's why strategical order book
sweeps vs small change are so attractive.

The second transaction (between the broker and the fund) regularly is a fixed price off-CME
transaction.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to choke35 for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #67 (permalink)
 paps 
SF Bay Area + CA/US
 
Experience: None
Platform: TS, TOS, Ninja(Analytics)
Trading: NQ CL, ES when volatile mrkts
 
paps's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,721 since Oct 2011
Thanks: 2,173 given, 1,710 received


tpredictor View Post
Yes, stop hunting is very real. However, the entire market is hunting for all stops. It is basically liquidity hunting. It is not personal, however. It is every single trader.

to OP:
some good answers in this thread. So it's just liquidity. Some of these are stops and some are to initiate/exit...if you understand how markets work. There will always be Sell to Buy////Buy to Sell especially at extreme's.

either ways... Stops...r just one way for Liquidity driven events. And it's not 1-10lot stops....this is where majority of the Orders are lying. It's based on ATS. Average Trade Size.....which will dictate where most big orders are.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to paps for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #68 (permalink)
wmueller
Milwaukee, WI
 
 
Posts: 88 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 4 given, 46 received


choke35 View Post
Nope.

If a broker is responsible for buying or selling a certain amount of contracts for account of
a third party
, that isn't a wash trade.

The customer, e.g. a fund, couldn't buy/sell the large amount of contracts without being ripped.
So the transaction is delegated to the broker to buy/sell the amount on behalf of the fund by
using the regular CME order flow at suitable points in time. That's why strategical order book
sweeps vs small change are so attractive.

The second transaction (between the broker and the fund) regularly is a fixed price off-CME
transaction.

So , basically the broker is acting as the fund's trade order executor, buys/sells all the contracts at various times and prices and sells/buys them to the fund at a guaranteed price.

So the broker is taking a bit of a risk, I would think. In return the broker must get a nice commission. Right?

It occurs to me that, as a retail trader, I would not want my broker to engage in such actions. I wonder if there is a way to find out.

Thanks choke35.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to wmueller for this post:
 
(login for full post details)
  #69 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 5,100 given, 6,555 received


wmueller View Post
So , basically the broker is acting as the fund's trade order executor, buys/sells all the contracts at various times and prices and sells/buys them to the fund at a guaranteed price.

So the broker is taking a bit of a risk, I would think. In return the broker must get a nice commission. Right?

It occurs to me that, as a retail trader, I would not want my broker to engage in such actions. I wonder if there is a way to find out.

Thanks choke35.

Right. But unfortunately, most brokers make their retail customers sign clauses in the fine print that allow many
sketchy varieties (like e.g. internalising orders or routing the order flow to (foreign) parent companies or other
affiliates).

Reply With Quote
 
(login for full post details)
  #70 (permalink)
StopHunter
New York, New York
 
 
Posts: 14 since Nov 2015
Thanks: 1 given, 10 received

Too many newbs focus on some larger force being mean to them and taking their money by running stops.

The fact is that running stops has been, and will always be an integral part of market dynamics. Once you learn to identify high potential areas for that to happen, and what it looks like when it does happen (versus an actual new impulsive move), you're in a better position to profit as a short term trader.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to StopHunter for this post:


futures io Trading Community Platforms and Indicators > Stop Hunting - Fact or Fiction?


Last Updated on October 23, 2017


Upcoming Webinars and Events

NinjaTrader Indicator Challenge!

Ongoing

Journal Challenge w/$1,800 in prizes!

May 7

EdgeProX - A Simple Choice For The Active Trader w/Morad Askar @ Edge Clear …

Elite only

The Cold Hard Truth: Maybe I Am Not Good Enough w/Chris Gray @ Earn2Trade

Elite only
     



Copyright © 2021 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada), info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts