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Ninja Trader or Sierra Charts
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Ninja Trader or Sierra Charts

  #21 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Las Vegas, NV
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Abacus, Slide Rule, HP-65, Metastock, TOS, NT
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
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Silvester17 View Post
here I'm totally convinced it's not a nt but a user problem. a good example are badly coded indicators. I use and push nt7 a lot, but don't have any problems at all.

I use and love NT for all its great flexibilities. But I must disagree that frequent issues with freezing is because of badly coded indicators alone. This freezing issue quite often happens during the Sundays, Monday market open, and contract rollover for certain instruments such as CL. It is very frustrating.

My solution to freezing issue has been to close and start NT with a blank Workspace (set as Default1). Then I start the day with the blank workspace, connect to ZenFire, and download a couple of days of tick data for the instruments that I trade to fill the gaps. Then I open my other trading and analysis workspaces. This method seems to work for me and avoids the issue, but should not be necessary.

If there are many complaints about freezing issues, then perhaps there is something to look into.

Cheers!

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  #22 (permalink)
Elite Member
Georgia, US
 
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Silvester17 View Post
since I never used sierra charts

Enough said. I have not heard of ONE Sierra user who has used it for any period of time and switched to NT. Yet, most all SC users have used NT extensively at some point, found it to be lacking in most every respect, and switched, based on an actual comparison between the two. NT users are usually so by default, because it's the only thing they've tried, because it's totally free for life if you don't trade with it. SC users are usually so because they have made a real comparison, and made a logical choice.


Silvester17 View Post
- I don't know a single feature I would like to have from sierra that I can't have with nt7.

I have listed, and can list again if you like, the many ways that SC is superior, both on a performance basis and on a feature basis. However, why don't we approach it from a different perspective. Instead of listing the ways that NT is simply as good as SC in comparison, how about listing one or two ways that NT is actually better than SC? In other words, what would a SC users be able to say, "man, I wish SC had this feature that NT has..." I'm sure there are some, I just can't think of any.


Silvester17 View Post
after seeing many sierra charts, I believe the nt7 custom indicators are more accurate.

Example?


Silvester17 View Post
- here are some stats from the bmt community. looking at member and programmer of the year, 4 out of 5 are nt users. trading platform of the year is nt. I was surprised to see sierra in 3rd place, didn't think they would make it in the top 10.

So on a public forum where 90% are sim trading, you think it's a plus that the platform of choice for sim-only traders, NT, is something to brag about? Nothing wrong with sim trading, at all. But NT is well-established because it's FREE, and thus many who aren't willing to spend a penny on their platform and who are on a never-ending indicator grail quest are drawn to it and all the freebie code available. So, it is not surprising that it also attracts many programmers (and some very good ones, like Fat Tails, gomi, etc.). But in the end, a popularity contest where one is free for life and another is not, is not exactly comparing apples to apples.

I should make one thing very clear: I have no gripe with NT users (I used to be one after all), and think it's great if an NT users loves his or her software, if it does the job. My issue is not with users who have chosen their software and are happy with it. However, I am free to speak my opinion and in my belief, people who use NT without exploring other options are making a regrettable decision, and so I am only encouraging people to explore their options. There are some great pieces of trading software out there that people simply never try, and get frustrated because they just do not know their options, and I think that is a shame.


Last edited by josh; June 3rd, 2013 at 03:33 PM.
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  #23 (permalink)
Elite Member
Georgia, US
 
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Let me give you prime example #1 why I switched from NinjaTrader, aside from wanting built-in volume profiling tools.

I posted this in 27 months ago:
Rectangle "disappears" when scrolling - NinjaTrader Support Forum

This was posted last month: Drawn obstacles disappear in lower timeframe - NinjaTrader Support Forum
And the month before: Disappearing rectangles - NinjaTrader Support Forum
And a few months before: Drawing Rectangle question - NinjaTrader Support Forum


So, in a program designed to display accurate charts first and foremost, and then draw on those charts using lines and shapes, they do not make it a priority over a multi-year span of time to fix a major problem like this, which they admit is a problem, which users have requested numerous times to fix.

When someone requests a logical new feature like an extending rectangle tool (which SC has by the way), the standard response is:
"I will forward your feature request to development for future consideration."
(see Please add an Extending Rectangle drawing tool - NinjaTrader Support Forum)

What this means, if the past is any indicator, is: "I will be happy to hold out the carrot within reach such that you are convinced the feature or bug fix might get implemented; however, we have no real intention of adding anything new over the next couple of years to our program, but please keep using it for free so that we can make money from our trading partners!"

----------
Take another example. 10 levels of depth in the DOM. Pretty standard for DOMs. In NT it's 5, and always has been.

Over FOUR years ago this request was made, and was added to the list of futures considerations:
10 deep in ZB - NinjaTrader Support Forum

A year later this request was made again:
depth size in DOM - NinjaTrader Support Forum

And again: superdom - 5 bids & 5 asks, yet in IB there is 10 bids & 10 asks - NinjaTrader Support Forum
(and again) Cumulative Depth - NinjaTrader Support Forum
(and again) Why does NT only display 5 levels in the DOM - NinjaTrader Support Forum
(and again) Super DOM and 10 levels of Bid/Ask prices - NinjaTrader Support Forum

Two years ago, it was given a brand new support ID (as if that means anything):
DOM Improvements - NinjaTrader Support Forum


Their support is polite, and sometimes helpful, but often ineffective. It's not their fault; they answer to the people in charge. If NT were a rock solid program that never crashed, was uber-efficient and lean and mean, then I can understand never implementing anything new, and only releasing a major release every 3 years with only incremental bug fixes every quarter. But it's none of those things.

NT will retain many users because of its subscription-free license offer, and because it's free to hook new traders before they discover what else is out there, and it will retain those who have enough time/money/ego invested in it who will never switch. But many people seem to be starting to realize that it's not all it's cracked up to be. And here's the kicker: I would switch back to NT if it got better. I have no interest invested in SC, except my monthly fee. The moment that NT becomes better than SC, I will use my lifetime license and become a regular user again. All I want is the best software; at the moment SC is light-years ahead of NT, but that could conceivably change, albeit with maybe a change in philosophies and ownership.

After I read the above, I felt a little bad, like maybe I'm "NT-bashing," but then I thought back and realized that they don't care enough about their users to fix simple things, so why should I think twice before laying out the paper trail showing how they operate?

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  #24 (permalink)
Elite Member
Indianapolis, IN USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
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SteveC55374 View Post
Hi everyone .. I am considering a change from X_Trader to either Ninjatrader or Sierra Charts .. was looking for some input from people who have used both .. I trade the ES and some CL .. but mostly the ES

Thanks for your Time

Hi Steve,
NinjaTrader is a superior trading platform. The platform will not make your trading decisions for you - other than that, it does just about everything else. You asked for input and here's mine: don't waste your time with Sierra. Good luck.

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  #25 (permalink)
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SteveC55374 View Post
Hi everyone .. I am considering a change from X_Trader to either Ninjatrader or Sierra Charts .. was looking for some input from people who have used both .. I trade the ES and some CL .. but mostly the ES

Thanks for your Time

I never used ninja so I can't speak about it but I do use SC (though not for execution) and am happy with it. I used TT for over 9 years as a serious tick chasing scalper so accuracy was extremely important and it didnt disappoint, not sure where some people are coming from saying it isnt. that being said, I used to pay $1200 a month for X trader pro and my current front end with my broker is free and 100% accurate and as functional as needed so I think TT's day is over for manual point and clickers and you are right to seek an alternative. Seems you have people on both sides of the argument here so my suggestion is to arrange a free trial for both and see what you like better!

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  #26 (permalink)
Market Wizard
virginia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
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josh View Post
...
When someone requests a logical new feature like an extending rectangle tool (which SC has by the way), the standard response is:
"I will forward your feature request to development for future consideration."
(see Please add an Extending Rectangle drawing tool - NinjaTrader Support Forum)
...

agree, extending rectangle tool is an awesome feature to have.

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  #27 (permalink)
Site Administrator
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josh View Post
So on a public forum where 90% are sim trading

Multiple data points on this over the years suggest on futures.io (formerly BMT) less than 20% are on sim and not trading cash.

Mike

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  #28 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
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aligator View Post
I use and love NT for all its great flexibilities. But I must disagree that frequent issues with freezing is because of badly coded indicators alone. This freezing issue quite often happens during the Sundays, Monday market open, and contract rollover for certain instruments such as CL. It is very frustrating.

My solution to freezing issue has been to close and start NT with a blank Workspace (set as Default1). Then I start the day with the blank workspace, connect to ZenFire, and download a couple of days of tick data for the instruments that I trade to fill the gaps. Then I open my other trading and analysis workspaces. This method seems to work for me and avoids the issue, but should not be necessary.

If there are many complaints about freezing issues, then perhaps there is something to look into.

Cheers!

@aligator,

sorry to hear that. but again I don't experience this freezing issue either. maybe @NinjaTrader has an explanation or a solution.

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  #29 (permalink)
Elite Member
San Diego, California
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
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Fadi View Post
Funny how this thread turned to be all about me and my costs
I am sorry for Steve who initiated this... I hope this will help him nonetheless in his choice.

But wait a second, where and when did I say that I will save $200 respect to Kinetick?
Or was it implicitly understood that way because I previously mentioned Kinetick somewhere?
Sorry for the confusion...

Let me iterate and summarize all my comment again in here:

I was just saying that going with SierraChart for me and with my current broker at least; it won't be $40 per month but way higher, more than $200 per month in fact because I will have to subscribe to another data provider (I am taking DTN IQFeed as an example since it is famous in here on futures.io (formerly BMT) and considered among the best).

I am saying this honestly to simply warn that it is not only about platform monthly costs; but one has to look at the entire setup and take into consideration the data fee as well. OF course please do not skim on the platform's features for the sake of saving on costs.

but since we are only discussing costs now, it is definitely fair to compare NT7 at 50$ per month versus SC at 35.10$ per month; I totally agree, but then you have to see in your particular case how much more would it cost you to trade in total.

1. if you get a quality data feed from your broker for free, then yes SC will be cheaper than NT7 and definitely for the first two years when you buy the lifetimes license for 995$ on NT.
After that, it will be just $0 for NT7 and $35.10 per month for SC. Bingo that cost is peanut as josh said, and one wouldn't mind that little fee for a quality software of course.

2. if you don't get a quality data feed from your broker for free (my case), then one has to incorporate that extra cost in the calculation, and believe it or not Kinetick is the cheapest you can find on the market nowadays.

My Personal costs if I were to select DTN IQFeed with Sierra would be:
1. platform lease $35.10
2. Basic Service $68
3. RT US Futures $20
4. Level 2 $20
5. CME exchanges $0
6. ICE US $90
7. NASDAQ $6
8. NYSE $6
TOTAL = $245.10 per month

My Personal costs if i were to select Kinetick with NT7 would be:
1. Platform lease $0 after 20 months of use
2. Basic Service $50
3. RT US Futures $0
4. Level 2 $20
5. CME exchanges $0
6. ICEUS $75 (but through IB)
7. NASDAQ $6
8. NYSE $6
TOTAL = $157.00 per month


SAVING = $88.10 per month or $1,057.20 per year

Hope that clears it all now

Cheers
Fadi


PS: reading again my previous comments, I guess this is what created the confusion



I perhaps expressed myself wrongly, sorry I didn't mean that it would be additional $2400+ than current cost.

Regarding the cost, I heard you have to pay some extra fees on per trade basis with NT. Also, SC allows you to trade through multiple brokers. So the saving is less for NT if you have multiple brokers. (BTW, SC has no problem to trade through 4-5 brokers at the same time since it uses separate instance for each broker. I am not even sure NT is technically able to do that, anyone ever tried?)

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  #30 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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Futures Experience: Advanced
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josh View Post
However, I am free to speak my opinion and in my belief, people who use NT without exploring other options are making a regrettable decision, and so I am only encouraging people to explore their options. There are some great pieces of trading software out there that people simply never try, and get frustrated because they just do not know their options, and I think that is a shame.

It is great to be able to express one's opinion based on personal experience only. But, with all due respect, to state that it is a shame other users not knowing their options and are making regrettable decisions is a bit presumptuous.

One's opinion based on one's personal experience carries more weight than based on one's perception of other people experiences. Lots of real traders here use NT for reasons unknown to public and they seem to be happy and making money too.

Cheers!

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