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eToro Q&A
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Created: by Micah Attachments:3

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eToro Q&A

  #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
Pt Vala
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Proprietary
Favorite Futures: CL, EUR, DAX
 
Posts: 58 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 12 given, 30 received

Please take the time and imagine just for a short time you would be in the position of the owners of eToro (or any other shop with a similar business model).

Now assume there is a person who makes consistent exceptional gains.

What would you do then?

At least I would do the following:
- Make personal contact to him, congratulate him, hire him
- Interrupt the contact between him and the mass (too many people using the same system will always attract people trading against them)

Why would I want to share an exceptional trader with the masses?



Bottomline:
If you want to trade try to develop your own strategies (and use a proper broker).
Trying to find a shortcut may lead to a dead end.

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  #12 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Muntinlupa + Phillipines
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Mt4 and zulutrade
Favorite Futures: forex
 
Posts: 13 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 1 given, 3 received

there are people that can simply not trade, my friend uexkuell,

i have tried several times but my mt4 trades were mostly based on luck or simple chart reading. both gaining and loosing as well. better stick to the business model of zulutrade at least it gets me some decent returns with manageneable risk levels. i guess everybody has its thing, right.

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  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
Cleveland Ohio/United States
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tradestation
Broker/Data: various
Favorite Futures: futures
 
Posts: 2,385 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 1,137 given, 4,384 received


Having been on all sides on this issue (I have developed my own strategies, I have subscribed in the past to strategies, and I have had subscribers to my strategies), I offer the following:

Most people lose, whether they create their own strategies, subscribe to a service, buy a system, etc. Why?

1. Most don't know how to evaluate a strategy. They therefore make incorrect conclusions about what is "good" and "bad."

2. Most people are over-leveraged. They trade too big. When the inevitable drawdown comes, they either get wiped out (risk of ruin is much greater for overleveraged folks) or panic and quit.

3. Most people start at the wrong time. People will hop on a strategy that is "hot," but many times hot periods are followed by cold periods, as the strategy reverts to its long term average (which hopefully is positive). Starting at a peak leaves less room for error.

4. Most people underestimate their ability to withstand a drawdown. My rule of thumb, in watching many people, is your maximum drawdown is really half what you think it is. For example, as you look for a strategy you might think you can handle a 30% drawdown. The reality is you can likely handle half of that (15%), before you start to panic and likely stop trading. This means many people select a strategy that was never appropriate for them in the first place - a sure recipe for disaster!

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  #14 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Muntinlupa + Phillipines
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Mt4 and zulutrade
Favorite Futures: forex
 
Posts: 13 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 1 given, 3 received


kevinkdog View Post
Having been on all sides on this issue (I have developed my own strategies, I have subscribed in the past to strategies, and I have had subscribers to my strategies), I offer the following:

Most people lose, whether they create their own strategies, subscribe to a service, buy a system, etc. Why?

1. Most don't know how to evaluate a strategy. They therefore make incorrect conclusions about what is "good" and "bad."

2. Most people are over-leveraged. They trade too big. When the inevitable drawdown comes, they either get wiped out (risk of ruin is much greater for overleveraged folks) or panic and quit.

3. Most people start at the wrong time. People will hop on a strategy that is "hot," but many times hot periods are followed by cold periods, as the strategy reverts to its long term average (which hopefully is positive). Starting at a peak leaves less room for error.

4. Most people underestimate their ability to withstand a drawdown. My rule of thumb, in watching many people, is your maximum drawdown is really half what you think it is. For example, as you look for a strategy you might think you can handle a 30% drawdown. The reality is you can likely handle half of that (15%), before you start to panic and likely stop trading. This means many people select a strategy that was never appropriate for them in the first place - a sure recipe for disaster!

you have said it very very right!!
so, from your experience which one is your favorite platform, in terms of user-friendliness and profitability?

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  #15 (permalink)
Elite Member
Cleveland Ohio/United States
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Tradestation
Broker/Data: various
Favorite Futures: futures
 
Posts: 2,385 since Jul 2012
Thanks: 1,137 given, 4,384 received


fxfollower View Post
you have said it very very right!!
so, from your experience which one is your favorite platform, in terms of user-friendliness and profitability?

Since I have not used all of the platforms previously discussed, I really can't give an opinion as to which is best. I'm sure each platform has some offerings which are pretty good. Problem is people have to look through a lot of junk first!

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  #16 (permalink)
Elite Member
Germany
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 88 since May 2012
Thanks: 53 given, 90 received

At the Etoro leader board, I sorted by the number of copiers and checked their top 5 traders.
http://openbook.etoro.com/rankings

All of them have many and huge open losses.

These losses are open for months, even years. To see that, click portfolio then open trades. Or use the direct links below.

http://openbook.etoro.com/malsolo/#/portfolio/open-trades/
http://openbook.etoro.com/santoshtiwari/#/portfolio/open-trades/
http://openbook.etoro.com/caraj51/#/portfolio/open-trades/
http://openbook.etoro.com/anassleiman/#/portfolio/open-trades/
http://openbook.etoro.com/wealthbw/#/portfolio/open-trades/

So how does it make sense for their supposedly best traders to not close out these losses? Apparently, they can game statistics that seem to consider realized trades only. Win ratios are prominently shown at the Etoro main page and are absurdly high, close to 100 percent.

The most followed trader Malsolo is advertised with 95% hit rate on Etoro's front page:

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).



Here are some of Malsolo's open trades:

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

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The following 3 users say Thank You to Outlier for this post:
 
  #17 (permalink)
Elite Member
Melbourne, victoria, australia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Trade station
Favorite Futures: Currency futures
 
Posts: 5 since Dec 2012
Thanks: 8 given, 4 received

Popular Vs Profitable

Thanks again all who took the time to have a look at this method of trading and offer their feedback to me and the other thread followers.
There's some real quality criticism here and I would like to start with a response to Outliers' observations regarding the trader called Malsolo.
I agree wholheartedly that this guy has a strong tendancy to hold losing trades open and close only winners. As anyone with a bit of FOREX experience will know, this is an unsustainable strategy! I reluctantly followed Malsolo on one of my demo accounts. I didn't like the look of his history - showing a lot of open losses- and I certainly do NOT follow the thundering herd, but I was curious as to how he would perform. Perhaps predictably he has closed a small amount of wins and is usually carrying a lot of dead weight (open trades showing a loss). Clearly I would like to close him as one of my traders, and here lies a major drawback with eToro: When you close a trader, all of their open trades automatically close! With a trader like Malsolo (and the many like him) the result of this will be clear. You will keep the small amount earned on the closed wins but lose the relatively large amount attached to the closed losing trades. When I want to cut them off because they are doing poorly, that is exactly the time when they are likely to be carrying losing trades.What I have learned from this is to avoid the traders who take this approach of holding losers until they are winners. Don't be fooled by popularity or by a 95% positive close rate. Dig a little deeper - look at their chart for the past 12 months, look at their current open trades, then run them on a demo for at least a month (a lot of people would say longer).

I've just opened a third demo account running the five best earners from the first two demos. Their names are: Eshantha, Wingsuen, Iceguru, Taetae371 and SRF2011. At the moment Iceguru is the winner showing a 3% closed profit and 1% open profit in the last two days. When I say he's the winner, I mean he's making the most money. He's running very hot and is clearly high risk. If you want to run a trader like this, balance him with someone a little less agro and watch him like a f-----g hawk!! I will be screening traders according to how much 'dead weight' they tend to carry from now on. Thanks Outlier!

Kevinkdog, this is really great advice! I think this applies to all aspects of trading and not just to 'social trading' or 'copy trading'. Unfortunately it is just about impossible to read this advice and then follow it unless you happen to be Dr Spok. What you have given us is hard won and took years of experience to gain. We have to tread our own path, develop our own ideas and trading strategies and sadly, lose some of our own money. May I recommend the 'Market Wizards' books by Jack D Schwager for a great insight into the minds of the worlds best traders.

FX Follower, I'm a technophobe so I won't spend the time making screen shots. Plus, I don't think they will help you. Get a demo account. Get three- they're free. Run the guys I have recommended, run the most popular traders, do some research and run your own favourites. Develop a strategy and don't forget to post your results- we need smart people like you doing research!

A lot of these guys on the eToro books are great traders and (I have to differ strongly from uexkuell) I do not think it is in the interest of the company to pull the best traders. Etoro is basically a software provider. They are not a finance company. The product that they are selling requires as many great traders as possible in order to compete with the other guys out there - such as Zulu. If they pull traders, they lose clientelle. If they lose clientelle then they lose favour with FXCM and all the other brokers who support them, and their business suffers.

Here's a great business model: Find something that fascinates you and that you love doing. Find some super smart, talented poeple who will let you copy their strategy. Follow them when they're hot, replace them when they're not.

Goodnight All. I look forward to your insights!

Micah.

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  #18 (permalink)
Elite Member
Germany
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 88 since May 2012
Thanks: 53 given, 90 received


Micah View Post
There's some real quality criticism here and I would like to start with a response to Outliers' observations regarding the trader called Malsolo.
I agree wholheartedly that this guy has a strong tendancy to hold losing trades open and close only winners. As anyone with a bit of FOREX experience will know, this is an unsustainable strategy! I reluctantly followed Malsolo on one of my demo accounts. I didn't like the look of his history - showing a lot of open losses- and I certainly do NOT follow the thundering herd, but I was curious as to how he would perform. Perhaps predictably he has closed a small amount of wins and is usually carrying a lot of dead weight (open trades showing a loss). Clearly I would like to close him as one of my traders, and here lies a major drawback with eToro: When you close a trader, all of their open trades automatically close! With a trader like Malsolo (and the many like him) the result of this will be clear. You will keep the small amount earned on the closed wins but lose the relatively large amount attached to the closed losing trades.

Thanks for sharing your first-hand experience.

Some thoughts on forex in general: A prudent trader wants direct access to other market participants and untampered quotes. The trader pays a commission for getting real prices that aren't marked-up (added to spread) and certainly doesn't trade against a dealer (bucket shop). Trading forex seriously is possible with real brokers like Interactive Brokers. In the long run, one may also want to consider products like stocks, futures, options, or anything else that's offered at public exchanges. In my opinion, the whole forex bucket shop and marked-up prices game is a nice distraction and provides entertainment but will lead one to nowhere as a trader.

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  #19 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Muntinlupa + Phillipines
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Mt4 and zulutrade
Favorite Futures: forex
 
Posts: 13 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 1 given, 3 received

so at the end is there anybody winning (or at least partially winning) smth of etoro?

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  #20 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
nuremberg germany
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: MetaTrader
Favorite Futures: Forex
 
Posts: 7 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 6 given, 0 received



fxfollower View Post
so at the end is there anybody winning (or at least partially winning) smth of etoro?

I have read some success stories in forex blogs but I don`t know someone personaly who had success. I have a demo account at the moment but consider to change it to a real account. But I think I have to gain a little more information on this forum before doing that step.

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