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NinjaTrader vs Think Or Swim


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NinjaTrader vs Think Or Swim

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  #1 (permalink)
 BDRPPLIR 
BDR
Zapopan Jalisco Mexico
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradestation
Broker: Tradestation
Trading: CL
 
Posts: 14 since Jan 2010
Thanks: 3 given, 25 received

Until I read the Ninja Trader Truth thread I was all set to move to NT now I am somewhat confused. Despite the obvious drawbacks of NT would I still benefit from moving from TOS to NT? I was attracted to the idea of practising in the Sim and the replay facilty but it would seem they are not particularly strong featues of NT or have I misunderstood? With TOS all my data feeds are included as I have a funded account so does NT justify the cost of the added feeds? My experience of trading platforms is obviously limited so I would appreciate someone pointing me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance

Bernard

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  #2 (permalink)
 MXASJ 
Asia
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, TOS
 
Posts: 798 since Jun 2009
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Hi BDRPPLIR,

I use both... TOS for real trades and NT for development. My plan is to open a second brokerage account in Q2 for use with NT7 (NT7 will probably be out before then, but I'm in no rush). I will keep my TOS account active and open as I see the platforms as complimentary.

Hope that helps.

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  #3 (permalink)
 BDRPPLIR 
BDR
Zapopan Jalisco Mexico
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradestation
Broker: Tradestation
Trading: CL
 
Posts: 14 since Jan 2010
Thanks: 3 given, 25 received



MXASJ View Post
Hi BDRPPLIR,

I use both... TOS for real trades and NT for development. My plan is to open a second brokerage account in Q2 for use with NT7 (NT7 will probably be out before then, but I'm in no rush). I will keep my TOS account active and open as I see the platforms as complimentary.

Hope that helps.

MXASJ

Thanks for the reply. So the charts and futures commissions on TOS are good enough for live trading on the ES? Thats good to know. futures.io (formerly BMT) members seem to be 99% NT despite its flaws so I thought maybe I was with the wrong platform. Thanks again

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  #4 (permalink)
 MXASJ 
Asia
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader, TOS
 
Posts: 798 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 109 given, 799 received

Well, no. TOS commissions on futures are horrible and you need to have an account >$25K and enough trade activity to negotiate a better rate... which still won't beat most US-based FCMs.

I'm heading towards using TOS only for ETFs and options this year... longer hold time stuff.

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  #5 (permalink)
 timefreedom 
Indianapolis, IN USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninjatrader TOS Custom
Broker: Several
Trading: ES CL ZB
 
Posts: 374 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 225 given, 380 received

I use TOS and their rack rate futures commission of $7 round turn is not fun. I got them down to $5.50 but that is still very high compared to Amp or Mirus. The advantage with TOS is that you can trade just about everything (futures, stocks, options, currencies, etc.) from a single platform and, other than the high futures commission, there are no additional fees or gotchas. TOS data includes internals such as $TICK and $TRIN, you can use SPX-/ES to graph $PREM, data is there for a huge array of commodities including, corn, cattle, lumber, crude oil, etc. One frustrating aspect of trading with TOS is that they are continually pushing out new release / upgrades to their platform. This usually happens on a monthly basis and while many good improvements have happened over the past year, it's frustrating when they push out "whistle and bell" enhancements when there are major "things" necessary and more relevant to trading. (User defined tick charts, volume charts, range charts, for example.) Might be a little off topic for this forum, but related to TOS and very important to be aware, is that recent FINRA regulation changes now require TOS to margin both short sides of any unbalanced position (butterfly, condor, etc.) This has caused some margin calls and required some liquidation that would not have been necessary prior to the new regulations (which make no sense whatsoever because the market still can only land at one spot in expiration - no way to get beat on both sides of a position - but now you get the pleasure of paying margin on both sides anyway. Thanks congress.)

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  #6 (permalink)
 blenderking 
Baltimore
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: IB, TOS
Trading: ES, ZN, FX
 
Posts: 12 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 6 given, 18 received

I use both TOS and Ninja with IB. I think if you're focused on a few futures markets, and want great control over your charting/indicator specifications, then Ninja seems to be the way to go. TOS is a very good choice for overall trading (as mentioned above). I like TOS's charts a lot - I can scan through a lot of symbols very quickly just using my down arrow key. Ninja is a lot slower for chart scanning due to the data download and filling the chart (depends on your data feed of course).

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  #7 (permalink)
 BDRPPLIR 
BDR
Zapopan Jalisco Mexico
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradestation
Broker: Tradestation
Trading: CL
 
Posts: 14 since Jan 2010
Thanks: 3 given, 25 received

So its not cut and dried between Ninja and TOS? Can you trade off the chart with NT as you can with TOS using the active trader module?

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  #8 (permalink)
 timefreedom 
Indianapolis, IN USA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninjatrader TOS Custom
Broker: Several
Trading: ES CL ZB
 
Posts: 374 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 225 given, 380 received

Yes. You can trade directly from the charts using Ninja.

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  #9 (permalink)
Andrew
sea side
 
 
Posts: 217 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 86 given, 25 received

Guys,

With all minuses of Ninja it still good platform much better than others for beginners and not only, however it's, of course, matter of personal choice.
But better when platform is at least more or less free of bugs, but not overloaded by them.
Below link is written by person who did a lot of creating different indicators which helped to ones who requested them and used.
If he wrote that, that means only one : even he decided to highlight that fact, which of course is not the only one, just look carefully and you will see a lot of "surprises"
Look on other posts about "tos" on Mike's forum, you will get more info

ThinkScripter Blog Archive BUG ALERT: Exponential Moving Average Initialization

P.s. Mike I hope all ok with that link to post here, because I'm of opinion that when you are beginner you need at least "normal" platform, but not collection of bugs, which could make learning of market if not impossible, but much much more difficult.

Krgds,
Andrew

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  #10 (permalink)
 redrum28 
nj
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: scottrade
Trading: es
 
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Posts: 13 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 4 given, 8 received


I Also use think or swim for stock trading but plan on using Ninjatrader for futures.Ive been using the free ninja for a few years now and i really like it.It does have a few bugs that worry me though.

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  #11 (permalink)
Andrew
sea side
 
 
Posts: 217 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 86 given, 25 received

Redrum,

For stocks...it's a bit different "game", but even Yahoo will be better than tos.
Just as small remark about stocks...some 2 months ago I saw Revlon at tos, guess at what price ? don't remember exactly, but something about $ 100 per share
It was nice to short it at 100 "having that stock ""dropped"" in about 2 days after to about $ 10 (its actual price).
Or shorted ES during one of holidays when daily chart showed one figures and 5 minute chart another
Just a few days and you are millionaire

P.s. Ninja allows charting of stocks as well as execution, why not to get normal data feed and trade stocks via Ninja ?

Krgds,
Andrew


redrum28 View Post
I Also use think or swim for stock trading but plan on using Ninjatrader for futures.Ive been using the free ninja for a few years now and i really like it.It does have a few bugs that worry me though.


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  #12 (permalink)
 BDRPPLIR 
BDR
Zapopan Jalisco Mexico
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradestation
Broker: Tradestation
Trading: CL
 
Posts: 14 since Jan 2010
Thanks: 3 given, 25 received

Thanks guys for all your input

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  #13 (permalink)
 redrum28 
nj
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: scottrade
Trading: es
 
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Posts: 13 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 4 given, 8 received

Im still in the process of determining which data feed wll suit my needs.Ive heard storys of some being more reliable then others, and also pricing is a factor.

thanks REDRUM

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  #14 (permalink)
Andrew
sea side
 
 
Posts: 217 since Dec 2009
Thanks: 86 given, 25 received

Redrum,

Understand you and you are right data feeds really differs, but with regards to price I'm of opinion that this is the last thing I want to buy cheap.
Besides, for example if trade ES, 1 tick costs $ 12.5, so it's simply to calculate how much ticks normal data feed will "save" and how much "not normal" data feed will "eat" ticks, so actually picture could be quite interesting, i.e. normal, but not cheap data feed will cost more, but "save" more ticks.
I'm not talking about the whole work of frontend, speed of execution, etc., etc.
To much depends on that, unless you are swing trader, I mean real swing trader, who trades swings 2-3-5 days long and who in reality don't care a lot about few things on each trade due to style of trading

P.s. the above is just opinion, everyone is free to do, however, what he/she needs/wants.

Krgds,
Andrew


redrum28 View Post
Im still in the process of determining which data feed wll suit my needs.Ive heard storys of some being more reliable then others, and also pricing is a factor.

thanks REDRUM


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  #15 (permalink)
 redrum28 
nj
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: scottrade
Trading: es
 
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Posts: 13 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 4 given, 8 received

Does anyone know of any brokers that provide free data for ninja just from opening an account with them?

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  #16 (permalink)
 mkw111 
Nashville TN
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NINJA
 
Posts: 18 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 2 given, 36 received

Are you looking for any type of data feed? You can get free from Mirus and amp futures

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  #17 (permalink)
 redrum28 
nj
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: scottrade
Trading: es
 
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Posts: 13 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 4 given, 8 received

looking to trade futures "ES" and the "CL" using the ninjatrader platform.

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  #18 (permalink)
 mkw111 
Nashville TN
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NINJA
 
Posts: 18 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 2 given, 36 received

hello everyone:
I use TOS and ninja trader. I like to look at the tos cahrts where I can easily put of 1,5, 15, 30, day, hourly charts up with Tos all at once with ease. As for ninja I trade off the charts at times, use some indicators as noted in this forum and use a futures broker for example Amp, mirus, Global or infinity. TOS in my opinion is not great for futures trading. Tos is good for options and stocks. If you trade futures then you should open a futures account with at least ome of the ones mentioned above. The round trip cost including fees, data is no more than $4.80 . Some can get less than $4.80 pending on how much they trade or how they negotiate there fees. If you have an account with TOs and trade futures you are doing a diservice to yourself in my opinion. I use Tos for charting but a real futures broker to trade


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  #19 (permalink)
 redrum28 
nj
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: scottrade
Trading: es
 
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Posts: 13 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 4 given, 8 received

I do agree i like Tos charting and setup "ease of Use" , But ive been studing or papertrading on ninja for about 3 years now so i understand it very well. Its just ive heard on forums about the unstableness and it frightens me to have open futures trades then it freezes.i Guess there is only 1 true way to find out for sure.



Thanks all REDRUM

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  #20 (permalink)
 mkw111 
Nashville TN
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NINJA
 
Posts: 18 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 2 given, 36 received

I have not have my ninja freeze and I am sure there are other platforms that freeze but I have my brokers number taped to corner of computer just in case and he answers on the first ring. I use stops so if it moves against me the at least there is one there as I know some who use no stops. Does you ninja freeze all the time?

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  #21 (permalink)
 redrum28 
nj
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: scottrade
Trading: es
 
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Posts: 13 since Oct 2009
Thanks: 4 given, 8 received

no not alot but it has happened a few times, i read more about from other people then it happens to me.

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  #22 (permalink)
 mkw111 
Nashville TN
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NINJA
 
Posts: 18 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 2 given, 36 received

Well since it happened just few times in 3 yrs is not bad. Just look at it this way. Not all platforms will be 100%( unless I am wrong let me know please). I have had some issues which has not cause much issues. You can read about everyone elses issues and drive you crazy. I ninja was so bad then alot of these peole here would not be using the indicators earmarked for the ninja platform. I believe mike uses ninja? Jeff castile? these guys are pros so lets have then interject.
Oh what data feed do you use and from what broker?

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  #23 (permalink)
 djpl8 
Chesapeake
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: TOS
Broker: TDAmeritrade
Trading: Stocks
 
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Posts: 9 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 20 given, 1 received

For what it's worth, I used to trade futures with thinkorswim. I have been in a trade and it hit my limit and never saw it on the charts. Thank God it was for a profit most of the time. Thinkorswim is great for long term charting and stock and options trades, but when my funds clear at Optimus futures, goodbye TOS. After using a real FCM and then going back to TOS, forget it, save yourself some stress.

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  #24 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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Posts: 2,489 since Sep 2010
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djpl8 View Post
For what it's worth, I used to trade futures with thinkorswim. I have been in a trade and it hit my limit and never saw it on the charts. Thank God it was for a profit most of the time. Thinkorswim is great for long term charting and stock and options trades, but when my funds clear at Optimus futures, goodbye TOS. After using a real FCM and then going back to TOS, forget it, save yourself some stress.

Thank You! Please get in touch next week and I will see what I can do to expedite the process in your transition to Ninja.

Matt

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
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  #25 (permalink)
royconago
US
 
 
Posts: 1 since Apr 2011
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Hi

I enjoed the discussions so far,

I, too, am using TOS now for option and futures. I never trade futures using other platform so i can't comment. However, what i am restrain now is not able to have user-define tick chart setting. I like to use 55ticks but in TOS, the minimum is 133Ticks.

For NJ users, can you do me a advice whether can you set the ticks period to say from 22ticks to 55ticks in NJ?

I am seriously looking to change platform. therefore i appreciate your advice on platform and data vendor, as you know, as TOS user, i never have to worry about data feed.

Feel free to keep your contribution coming, thanks in advance.

Rgds
Roy

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  #26 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus, IB
Trading: SPY, Oil, Euro
 
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Posts: 1,858 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 300 given, 3,339 received

If you are a serious day trader, there is no comparison between the 2 platforms, NinjaTrader is absolutely the way to go. If you are a programmer, or like to customize, Ninjatrader is absolutely the way to go. Most of the issues in the truth about NT thread are esoteric, and are mainly obscure issues that low level programmer types are concerned with. I have my issues with NT as well, but they are mainly low level bits and bytes anomalies, that most traders would not care about. From what I can tell, very few platforms offer the extensibility options that NT has, and that is paramount for me. For the typical average day trader, NT is as solid as anything out there.

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