NexusFi: Find Your Edge


Home Menu

 





Selling Options on Futures?


Discussion in Options

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one ron99 with 2,221 posts (4,489 thanks)
    2. looks_two SMCJB with 346 posts (733 thanks)
    3. looks_3 kevinkdog with 341 posts (400 thanks)
    4. looks_4 myrrdin with 288 posts (408 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one SMCJB with 2.1 thanks per post
    2. looks_two ron99 with 2 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 myrrdin with 1.4 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 kevinkdog with 1.2 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 1,987,332 views
    2. thumb_up 9,259 thanks given
    3. group 458 followers
    1. forum 7,370 posts
    2. attach_file 794 attachments




 
Search this Thread

Selling Options on Futures?

  #6081 (permalink)
TFOpts
Los Angeles, CA
 
Posts: 64 since May 2017
Thanks Given: 49
Thanks Received: 136


rsm005 View Post
@ron99 and @TFTOps

So I have been trying to put together a interesting simulation to find out is it provides additional protection automatically. Based on Ron's recent post it looks like the PC-SPAN spreadsheet will be able to do this you might have the tools that can. Specifically what I'm trying to do is the following

1. Add a put automatically when the margin reaches 50 to 60%, start with something arbitrary and modify.
2. The time of expiration and the Delta are still unknown and it's something I wanted to experiment with as part of the simulation.

I did something very similar when the Brexit vote was looming. I ended up buying a put that expired a week after the vote for pennies and ended up with a massive gain when the market reacted to the "yes" vote. The thought is to use margin excess as a barometer to add a put with the time and expiration being something TBD.

/rsm005/

rsm005, I like the idea but it will be difficult to test. The tool I have currently chooses options on a given date and under a given strategy and rides those options out until the exit point is reached. Testing different exit points and option parameters is easy enough to do, but adding options mid-stream will be a challenge.

However, I think your idea is very good and I will do my best to implement something so we can test it out, I'll get back to you with a progress update.

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on NexusFi?
Exit Strategy
NinjaTrader
How to apply profiles
Traders Hideout
MC PL editor upgrade
MultiCharts
Trade idea based off three indicators.
Traders Hideout
ZombieSqueeze
Platforms and Indicators
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on NexusFi
Spoo-nalysis ES e-mini futures S&P 500
29 thanks
Just another trading journal: PA, Wyckoff & Trends
25 thanks
Tao te Trade: way of the WLD
24 thanks
Bigger Wins or Fewer Losses?
23 thanks
GFIs1 1 DAX trade per day journal
18 thanks
  #6082 (permalink)
TFOpts
Los Angeles, CA
 
Posts: 64 since May 2017
Thanks Given: 49
Thanks Received: 136

Based on data from 2013-2016, the best days of the week to sell ES options using Ron's strategy are Monday and Thursday. It is generally understood that the value of selling on Thursday is the additional time decay that occurs over the weekend. I'm not sure why there is good value on Monday as well. Maybe because volatility is higher on Monday due to news that emerged over the previous weekend?

Here's a table of mROIs by day of the week where 1 is Monday, 2 is Tuesday, etc.

Median is highest but average is lowest on Thursday, showing less volatility but more consistent gains (in line with time decay being the source), while the average is highest on Monday (in line with higher volatility being the source).

Reply With Quote
  #6083 (permalink)
 rsm005 
vancouver BC/Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Zaner360, OX
Broker: DeCaley
Trading: options
Posts: 264 since Jan 2015
Thanks Given: 13
Thanks Received: 205



TFOpts View Post
rsm005, I like the idea but it will be difficult to test. The tool I have currently chooses options on a given date and under a given strategy and rides those options out until the exit point is reached. Testing different exit points and option parameters is easy enough to do, but adding options mid-stream will be a challenge.

However, I think your idea is very good and I will do my best to implement something so we can test it out, I'll get back to you with a progress update.

One other piece of information if you do figure out a way to try this. I break up my trades into lots of 20-30 contracts at a time rather than 1 massive put position, something I learned the hard way given that different prices/times move at different rates as the underlying moves.

For example, right now I have 3 positions open

1. EWQ7P2025 -30 and EWQ7P1790 +60
2. ESU7P2000 -30 and ESU7P1760 + 60

I'm not sure if buying 1 put close enough to the money but expiring sooner will protect both positions or if each position needs a put. I love the entry timer you posted earlier....confirms Thursdays but Monday was really eye opening. I'm probably going to put another position on this Thursday for 20 contracts.

/rsm005/

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #6084 (permalink)
rajab
westhills california US
 
Posts: 94 since May 2015
Thanks Given: 131
Thanks Received: 20


rsm005 View Post
One other piece of information if you do figure out a way to try this. I break up my trades into lots of 20-30 contracts at a time rather than 1 massive put position, something I learned the hard way given that different prices/times move at different rates as the underlying moves.

For example, right now I have 3 positions open

1. EWQ7P2025 -30 and EWQ7P1790 +60
2. ESU7P2000 -30 and ESU7P1760 + 60

I'm not sure if buying 1 put close enough to the money but expiring sooner will protect both positions or if each position needs a put. I love the entry timer you posted earlier....confirms Thursdays but Monday was really eye opening. I'm probably going to put another position on this Thursday for 20 contracts.

/rsm005/

Interesting
I know part of Ron's strategy is to be invested at all times (or at least most of the time) and not to time the market. I wonder if one was to divide up the contracts like rsm005 and enter every monday( if IM allows)the win rate would be higher as oppose to try to wait and time the market ( if possible) and enter with one big contract. I don't even know if this can be tested or looked at objectively.

Thanks

Reply With Quote
  #6085 (permalink)
 ron99 
Cleveland, OH
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Trading: Options on Futures
Posts: 3,081 since Jul 2011
Thanks Given: 980
Thanks Received: 5,785


TFOpts View Post
Based on data from 2013-2016, the best days of the week to sell ES options using Ron's strategy are Monday and Thursday. It is generally understood that the value of selling on Thursday is the additional time decay that occurs over the weekend. I'm not sure why there is good value on Monday as well. Maybe because volatility is higher on Monday due to news that emerged over the previous weekend?

Here's a table of mROIs by day of the week where 1 is Monday, 2 is Tuesday, etc.

Median is highest but average is lowest on Thursday, showing less volatility but more consistent gains (in line with time decay being the source), while the average is highest on Monday (in line with higher volatility being the source).

Thanks for study.

Do the results look different if you only look at 2016 & 2017?

Do you have the EW3 contracts included? Or is 2016 only the quarterly options?

Started this thread Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #6086 (permalink)
 ron99 
Cleveland, OH
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Trading: Options on Futures
Posts: 3,081 since Jul 2011
Thanks Given: 980
Thanks Received: 5,785


rajab View Post
Interesting
I know part of Ron's strategy is to be invested at all times (or at least most of the time) and not to time the market. I wonder if one was to divide up the contracts like rsm005 and enter every monday( if IM allows)the win rate would be higher as oppose to try to wait and time the market ( if possible) and enter with one big contract. I don't even know if this can be tested or looked at objectively.

Thanks

The win rate is 100%. Can't be higher. ROI could be higher.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #6087 (permalink)
 ron99 
Cleveland, OH
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Trading: Options on Futures
Posts: 3,081 since Jul 2011
Thanks Given: 980
Thanks Received: 5,785

ES margin is dropping 4.3% on Friday June 2nd.

Started this thread Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #6088 (permalink)
TFOpts
Los Angeles, CA
 
Posts: 64 since May 2017
Thanks Given: 49
Thanks Received: 136


ron99 View Post
Thanks for study.

Do the results look different if you only look at 2016 & 2017?

Do you have the EW3 contracts included? Or is 2016 only the quarterly options?

The data I'm currently using is only for contracts started in 2013 through 2016. The contracts started in 2016 continue into 2017 but no new trades are made in 2017. At the end of Q2 I'll consider adding contracts started in Q1 of 2017 since there should be a sufficient number of days for all of them to reach the exit point.

EW3 contracts are included. Here are results for 2016. Results are somewhat consistent with the 13-16 period with Monday clearly standing out. Overall 2016 was a good year for this trading strategy with a median return of 4.04%.


In your experience, how's the volume with EW3 contracts? How about the other EW contracts?

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #6089 (permalink)
volramp
Tel Aviv Israel
 
Posts: 14 since May 2017
Thanks Given: 71
Thanks Received: 8


ron99 View Post
ES margin is dropping 4.3% on Friday June 2nd.

Do you know if and how this will change the required margin for short ES options?

Reply With Quote
  #6090 (permalink)
 ron99 
Cleveland, OH
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Trading: Options on Futures
Posts: 3,081 since Jul 2011
Thanks Given: 980
Thanks Received: 5,785



volramp View Post
Do you know if and how this will change the required margin for short ES options?

They will drop 4.3% from what they would have been without the change

Started this thread Reply With Quote




Last Updated on July 28, 2023


© 2024 NexusFi™, s.a., All Rights Reserved.
Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama City, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada)
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
About Us - Contact Us - Site Rules, Acceptable Use, and Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy - Downloads - Top
no new posts