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Selling Options on Futures?


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Selling Options on Futures?

  #5651 (permalink)
 rsm005 
vancouver BC/Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
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@ron99

Is your exit still set to 3x IM? Once I start again I'm going with 20% below the current market with a 1:1 spread that's 100pts wide. I think that's what the consensus was in the earlier parts of this thread, correct?

Thanks,
/rsm005/

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  #5652 (permalink)
 ron99 
Cleveland, OH
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Trading: Options on Futures
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rsm005 View Post
@ron99

Is your exit still set to 3x IM? Once I start again I'm going with 20% below the current market with a 1:1 spread that's 100pts wide. I think that's what the consensus was in the earlier parts of this thread, correct?

Thanks,
/rsm005/

I exit at 50% drop in premium. I'm staying with 5.00 delta short with two 1.50 delta longs.

I updated all of my long term studies on ES puts.

Here is a summary.



All of the data is in the attached spreadsheet. If you change the Margin Factor (yellow cells) on the summary sheet the ROIs and other data will change.

The 82415 sheet has various positions entered on 8/17/15. You can change the Margin Factor on these also on the summary page.

Attached Files
Elite Membership required to download: Option ES Study 10x.xlsx
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  #5653 (permalink)
 datahogg 
Knoxville Tennessee USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS
Trading: ES, NQ, CL, /6E futures options.
Posts: 346 since Oct 2012
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It seems that when a medium or larger sell off occurs my span margin requirements increase by a factor of 2 or 3.
What value have other put sellers noticed during down turns? This is for markets correlated with the ES futures.
For other markets such as ZB (30 Yr), corn, wheat, etc , not correlated with ES the increase in span margin would be less?

If the factor of 2 or 3 is a reasonable number for span margin increase, then would it be prudent to
limit span margin to 1/3 of account value?

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  #5654 (permalink)
 ron99 
Cleveland, OH
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Trading: Options on Futures
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datahogg View Post
It seems that when a medium or larger sell off occurs my span margin requirements increase by a factor of 2 or 3.
What value have other put sellers noticed during down turns? This is for markets correlated with the ES futures.
For other markets such as ZB (30 Yr), corn, wheat, etc , not correlated with ES the increase in span margin would be less?

If the factor of 2 or 3 is a reasonable number for span margin increase, then would it be prudent to
limit span margin to 1/3 of account value?

The margin increase depends on how close to futures and DTE are your options.

You also need to cover the loss in premium value along with the increase in margin.

It takes about a quick 100 point drop in futures to see a triple increase in margin for a 3 delta option.

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  #5655 (permalink)
Pirolyx
Montreal quebec
 
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datahogg View Post
It seems that when a medium or larger sell off occurs my span margin requirements increase by a factor of 2 or 3.
What value have other put sellers noticed during down turns? This is for markets correlated with the ES futures.
For other markets such as ZB (30 Yr), corn, wheat, etc , not correlated with ES the increase in span margin would be less?

If the factor of 2 or 3 is a reasonable number for span margin increase, then would it be prudent to
limit span margin to 1/3 of account value?

The worst span margin increase in large sell off depends on how much is your span and the credit that you receive. Since OTM puts did atleast 10x on 24/8/15, it would be hard to believe that the max margin expansion was 2-3.
My worst on CL was a margin call and my span was around 30%, with a credit received of also 30% (meaning that I was collecting a credit of 30% the value of my account).
When I do 1.5SD strangles on CL, the max margin I would allocate is 20%.

ITM options tends to move less when there are large moves. According to my manual backtests, the max drawdown of a straddle that had 30-40 dte left on 24/8/2015 was around 2.2x, which is not much when you consider that some strangles did 20x-30x that day.

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  #5656 (permalink)
 datahogg 
Knoxville Tennessee USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS
Trading: ES, NQ, CL, /6E futures options.
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Pirolyx View Post
The worst span margin increase in large sell off depends on how much is your span and the credit that you receive. Since OTM puts did atleast 10x on 24/8/15, it would be hard to believe that the max margin expansion was 2-3.
My worst on CL was a margin call and my span was around 30%, with a credit received of also 30% (meaning that I was collecting a credit of 30% the value of my account).
When I do 1.5SD strangles on CL, the max margin I would allocate is 20%.

ITM options tends to move less when there are large moves. According to my manual backtests, the max drawdown of a straddle that had 30-40 dte left on 24/8/2015 was around 2.2x, which is not much when you consider that some strangles did 20x-30x that day.

Seems reasonable. But the Cordier/Gross number of 50% seems like an invitation to disaster.
Since 24/8/2015 I have used ratio spreads, and my span margin is rarely over 20% of account.

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  #5657 (permalink)
rajab
westhills california US
 
Posts: 94 since May 2015
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Hey Ron.

Have you tested your strategy on Call spreads?

I know you think Call are not much profitable.

And from personal experience I think they take longer decaying.

Thought and one?

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  #5658 (permalink)
 ron99 
Cleveland, OH
 
Experience: Advanced
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Broker: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
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rajab View Post
Hey Ron.

Have you tested your strategy on Call spreads?

I know you think Call are not much profitable.

And from personal experience I think they take longer decaying.

Thought and one?

I haven't. ROI is far too low.

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  #5659 (permalink)
 rsm005 
vancouver BC/Canada
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Zaner360, OX
Broker: DeCaley
Trading: options
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Anyone have the ftp link to download SPAN files, can't seem to find it anymore. I am trying to do an experiment to see how these spreads react to a down trending market...gotta go way back to find that.

/rsm005/

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  #5660 (permalink)
 ron99 
Cleveland, OH
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Trading: Options on Futures
Posts: 3,081 since Jul 2011
Thanks Given: 980
Thanks Received: 5,785



rsm005 View Post
Anyone have the ftp link to download SPAN files, can't seem to find it anymore. I am trying to do an experiment to see how these spreads react to a down trending market...gotta go way back to find that.

/rsm005/

ftp://ftp.cmegroup.com/pub/span/data/

No CME files available prior to 2013.

If you have XLS-SPAN (found in PC-SPAN thread) you can just type in the dates and it will download the files. I believe on ICE products you can go back to 2008.

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