Selling Options on Futures? (Page 502) - Options on Futures | futures.io
futures.io futures trading
 

Go Back   futures.io

> Futures Trading, News, Charts and Platforms > Traders Hideout > Options on Futures


Selling Options on Futures?
Started:July 19th, 2011 (06:16 PM) by ron99 Views / Replies:569,332 / 5,728
Last Reply:December 6th, 2016 (05:26 PM) Attachments:642

Welcome to futures.io.

Welcome, Guest!

This forum was established to help traders (especially futures traders) by openly sharing indicators, strategies, methods, trading journals and discussing the psychology of trading.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading forums:
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive on our forums.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendor advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in openness and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, it is not something tangible you can download.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.


You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community. It's free and simple, and we will never resell your private information.

-- Big Mike
     

Reply
 642  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread

Selling Options on Futures?

Old September 18th, 2015, 11:52 AM   #5011 (permalink)
Market Wizard
OH
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker/Data: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Favorite Futures: Options on Futures
 
Posts: 2,324 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 634 given, 3,905 received


rsm005 View Post
Ron,

Do you mind sharing your alternative covered spread model? Also, why did you pick these specific strikes?

Thanks,
/rsm005/

I am not done researching the details. I posted what I found to be promising.

I used those strikes because that is what I found, at that time, to offer risk protection. But there are better ways.

Reply With Quote
     
The following 2 users say Thank You to ron99 for this post:
     

Old September 18th, 2015, 08:45 PM   #5012 (permalink)
Market Wizard
OH
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker/Data: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Favorite Futures: Options on Futures
 
Posts: 2,324 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 634 given, 3,905 received

I have hit something that I can't figure out. Maybe another set of eyes can help.

I have the data for a short ESx5p1700 and two long ESv5p1625 starting 8/17/15.

A positive in the Draw Down column means profit. A negative means a loss or draw down.

They cover the drop on 8/24 well. But what happens later concerns me.

Obviously you should take the profit on 8/24 and get out. But if the futures drop on 8/24 wasn't enough to trigger profits on 8/24 then holding and waiting for a profit runs into a snag. You are hit with a margin call on 9/11.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


Here are the IM and the futures price. Why does the IM rise so much starting 9/10/2015?

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


Here are options prices charted.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


The only thing I can think of is that the long options are at 35 DTE on 9/11 (shorts are at 70 DTE) and that is why IM jumps a lot. The longs are getting too close to expiration to offer coverage to the short and their premium is dropping faster than the short.

The IM starts moving higher on 9/02 even though futures are higher. But also on that day the net Price goes from 7.00 to 9.00. The short goes from 35.40 to 24.60. A drop of 10.80. The two longs combined go from 28.40 to 15.60. A drop of 12.80. The 2 longs drop faster than the one short so the spread loses money on that day.

Reply With Quote
     
The following 6 users say Thank You to ron99 for this post:
     

Old September 19th, 2015, 06:06 AM   #5013 (permalink)
Elite Member
Linz Austria
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Zaner360, Vantage, Trade Navigator
Broker/Data: DeCarley, RJO
Favorite Futures: Commodities
 
Posts: 680 since Nov 2014
Thanks: 1,032 given, 550 received



ron99 View Post
I have hit something that I can't figure out. Maybe another set of eyes can help.

I think you figured it out correctly. When your long puts come too close to expiration they do not protect the short puts anymore. On the day margin of your position went up (and on the days thereafter) volatility came down. When volatility comes down the probability that puts with few DTE go into money deminishes quickly. Whereas the short put has a lot of time left.

I made the similar experience for other commodities.

Best regards, Myrrdin

Reply With Quote
     
The following 7 users say Thank You to myrrdin for this post:
     

Old September 21st, 2015, 04:09 AM   #5014 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Munich Germany
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TWS
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 12 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 44 given, 11 received

As the strategie itself seems to be successfull for most of the time, the problem remains the margin explosion ending in the margin call.

What about adding an additional exit, f.e. on the percent of margin used 75% or using another criterium like, exit if the current P/L is about 3 times the initial premium.

A 3 times premium loss is not what anyone wants, it will eliminate 3 or 4 winning trades, but if it does not occur very often, it should be ok.

I am unable to backtest this, but wouldn´t something like this be successfull on the long run?

Reply With Quote
     
The following user says Thank You to satghost for this post:
     

Old September 21st, 2015, 11:33 AM   #5015 (permalink)
Market Wizard
OH
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker/Data: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Favorite Futures: Options on Futures
 
Posts: 2,324 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 634 given, 3,905 received

Futures Edge on FIO

satghost View Post
As the strategie itself seems to be successfull for most of the time, the problem remains the margin explosion ending in the margin call.

What about adding an additional exit, f.e. on the percent of margin used 75% or using another criterium like, exit if the current P/L is about 3 times the initial premium.

A 3 times premium loss is not what anyone wants, it will eliminate 3 or 4 winning trades, but if it does not occur very often, it should be ok.

I am unable to backtest this, but wouldn´t something like this be successfull on the long run?

The problem with that type of exit is that what if you are not at the computer when it hits that point?

On 8/24/15 most of the rise in price was when people in the US were sleeping. The bids/asks were extremely wide or not there at all.

Reply With Quote
     
The following 3 users say Thank You to ron99 for this post:
     

Old September 21st, 2015, 11:50 AM   #5016 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Riga Latvia
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Zaner 360
Favorite Futures: commodyties
 
Posts: 83 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 219 given, 59 received


ron99 View Post
The problem with that type of exit is that what if you are not at the computer when it hits that point?

On 8/24/15 most of the rise in price was when people in the US were sleeping. The bids/asks were extremely wide or not there at all.

Welcome to Europe!

Reply With Quote
     
The following 4 users say Thank You to uuu1965 for this post:
     

Old September 22nd, 2015, 03:00 AM   #5017 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Ottawa
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Many
Favorite Futures: Options
 
Posts: 87 since May 2015
Thanks: 67 given, 87 received

Backtesting Options Strategies

Like many of you I had some losses on Aug 24. I have been manually backtesting different ideas to help avoid or at least partially mitigate the loss without costing me a large % of profits. I assume someone has written better software for the task of testing Options on equities and FOPs. So I started another thread thread to discuss that as to not get off topic here.

If anyone has thoughts please go here

https://futures.io/options-cfd-trading/37130-options-backtesting-software.html#post522755

Thanks

Reply With Quote
     
The following user says Thank You to Chubbly for this post:
     

Old September 22nd, 2015, 09:45 AM   #5018 (permalink)
Market Wizard
OH
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker/Data: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Favorite Futures: Options on Futures
 
Posts: 2,324 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 634 given, 3,905 received

Dudetooth has posted a new version of his XLS-SPAN Excel spreadsheet in the PC-SPAN thread.

https://futures.io/options-cfd-trading/29125-pc-span-35.html#post522704

This version reduces the size of the CME file so that it runs much faster. The full CME file is about 470,000 lines long. By only using the lines needed for the commodities you trade you can reduce the lines to below 80,000.

The CME has 2,551 futures and options symbols. Most of us trade less than 30 symbols.

The other change to the spreadsheet is that the resulting data goes to another sheet and has more data than before. Then this data can be summarized on another sheet using Pivot Table.

I have been using this to backtest strategies. This new version greatly reduces the time needed to run options. The only drawback is that the CME only offers data files for 2013, 2014, 2015. We have requested more years but haven't heard back if they will offer more years.

Reply With Quote
     
The following 6 users say Thank You to ron99 for this post:
     

Old September 23rd, 2015, 04:19 PM   #5019 (permalink)
Market Wizard
OH
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker/Data: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Favorite Futures: Options on Futures
 
Posts: 2,324 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 634 given, 3,905 received

I have some results of my research. I will post the results in several posts as there is a lot of data.

I ran multiple covered option strategies. Here is selling one option and buying option(s) one month in front of the short option.

Note the possible monthly ROI is exiting at 50% drop in premium using 7.00 per option for the cost. These are all IMx3.
A negative number in the draw down column is a loss. Positive is a profit.
Red numbers are options on margin call.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


As you can see they all either went on margin call or came really close. The draw downs were 50%+. Using 2 longs worked better for covering what happened on 8/24 than one long.

The problem with this strategy is that the longs' premium erodes faster than the short. This causes margin to increase and the premium erosion to be flat or go backwards.

This does work if you want to cover a short option from a potential big crash for a short duration. If you had on short ES puts before 8/24 and you bought 2 longs for each short on 8/22 or 8/23 that were one month in front of the short's month you would have been protected and actually made a good profit on 8/24. The lower the delta of the spread the higher the protection and profit.

But doing that for every trade does not work.

Reply With Quote
     
The following 11 users say Thank You to ron99 for this post:
     

Old September 23rd, 2015, 04:22 PM   #5020 (permalink)
Market Wizard
OH
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker/Data: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Favorite Futures: Options on Futures
 
Posts: 2,324 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 634 given, 3,905 received


I also ran some spreads using 3 longs for each short using the same month for the longs and the short.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


These did OK and the lower deltas gave better protection. But they also had lower ROI because of the extra long.

Reply With Quote
     
The following 11 users say Thank You to ron99 for this post:
     

Reply



futures.io > Futures Trading, News, Charts and Platforms > Traders Hideout > Options on Futures > Selling Options on Futures?

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)
 

Al Brooks: Stop Losing when a Good Trade goes Bad, Correcting Mistakes

Elite only
 

Trading Technologies: ADL hands-on

Dec 13

Normal webinar schedule resumes after the holidays

January

Ernie Chan: Risk Management

Elite only

Dedicated Trading Servers: Advantages/Disadvantages w/sam028

Elite only

An Afternoon with FIO member Massive I

Elite only

Leo Murphy: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crude Oil (CL) futures inverse pairing options Big Mike Commodities Futures Trading 8 December 12th, 2013 12:00 PM
Recommend futures, options Broker? sam1197 Brokers and Data Feeds 17 March 27th, 2013 01:42 AM
Trading Futures with options as protection Gooffy2010 Commodities Futures Trading 6 October 2nd, 2012 05:55 PM
Selling Njniatrader sam1197 NinjaTrader 22 June 28th, 2012 01:40 PM
Zen-Fire Futures options tici88 Brokers and Data Feeds 1 July 30th, 2011 10:16 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:01 PM.

Copyright © 2016 by futures.io. All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
 
no new posts
Page generated 2016-12-08 in 0.16 seconds with 20 queries on phoenix via your IP 50.16.17.16