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Selling Options on Futures?
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Selling Options on Futures?

  #3941 (permalink)
World'sWorstTrader
Knoxville Tennessee USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS
Favorite Futures: ES, NQ, CL, /6E futures options.
 
Posts: 261 since Oct 2012
Thanks: 126 given, 75 received

CL


rsm005 View Post
Thanks for sharing this. Maybe I'm being thick but for some reason I just can't follow the information in there. What was the net from each side of the strangle? Can you walk me through it? Seems like I'm forgetting everything I've read about this...<sigh>.

This is just part of a larger spread sheet. I use this to keep track of info.
Open/Close is just noting if I open or closed the option. If Qty (Quantity) is + I have bought the option.
If Qty is - I have sold the option Price is the $ value of the transaction.
To get unrealized gain/loss you just do a sum of the appropriate columns. (Actually I have additional columns with
formulas that do the accounting.) At this time most all of the Gain/Loss is unrealized. Notice that I closed out the 29 P and the 75 C.

This was listed to answer the question of prices paid. (Column 6.) Hope this helps.

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  #3942 (permalink)
Elite Member
Singapore
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader meta trader
Favorite Futures: oil
 
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ron99 View Post
Correct on the deltas.

I did not do any adjustments in 2014.

This year I am selling ES puts for about 2.00 that are 80-100 DTE. Taking profit when they are at 0.50-0.80.

I noticed that your win percentage is 97.6% which is pretty close to the expected result of selling at delta of 2% OTM.

If you sell ES pus at 2.00 at about 80 days. The delta is just about 2%. As the calls tends to be nearer the price, do you also intend to sell calls at 2.00 given that the deltas for 2.00 calls for 80 days is 5?

During 2014 for ES

a. did you also sell about the same numbers of calls as puts?
b. What deltas do you you normally sell at?
c. How many days out did you sell the calls at?

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  #3943 (permalink)
Elite Member
vancouver BC/Canada
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Zaner360, OX
Broker/Data: DeCaley
Favorite Futures: options
 
Posts: 234 since Jan 2015
Thanks: 13 given, 186 received


Well the price blew right past my stops and I was forced to exit my position this morning and eat a pretty substantial loss. Account isn't blown up but it's a really nasty way to start my first trade. I sold my short calls for a loss but kept the calls I bought. If this rally continues I can sell them and offset the loss a bit more. Time to lick my wounds, understand what I did, and try again.

/A/

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  #3944 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
TPE, TW
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: ib tws
Favorite Futures: gbpusd, vix
 
Posts: 49 since Jul 2014
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tbs8877 View Post
I noticed that your win percentage is 97.6% which is pretty close to the expected result of selling at delta of 2% OTM.

Wrong expectation to have IMO..2 delta/98% OTM is if you hold til expiry no matter what, and does not consider premium at all. You could theoretically be blown up/negative net liquid value during the trade but end up reversing coming into 1c outside the strike, and it is still considered into the 98% OTM.

So to achieve 97.6% win rate, while using a stop limiting losses, is much more impressive than any delta can indicate.

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  #3945 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Cleveland, OH
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker/Data: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Favorite Futures: Options on Futures
 
Posts: 2,651 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 769 given, 4,579 received
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tbs8877 View Post
I noticed that your win percentage is 97.6% which is pretty close to the expected result of selling at delta of 2% OTM.

If you sell ES pus at 2.00 at about 80 days. The delta is just about 2%. As the calls tends to be nearer the price, do you also intend to sell calls at 2.00 given that the deltas for 2.00 calls for 80 days is 5?

During 2014 for ES

a. did you also sell about the same numbers of calls as puts?
b. What deltas do you you normally sell at?
c. How many days out did you sell the calls at?

I have never, ever sold ES calls. Too low ROI.

An Apr ES 2190 call (margin 1606) has a monthly ROI of <1%. An Apr 1300 put (margin 259) is in the 4% ROI range. Both are at 2.00 premium. Call delta of 5.11. Put delta of 1.26.

Much higher delta (risk) and far worse ROI. Why would anyone sell ES calls?

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  #3946 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Cleveland, OH
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker/Data: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Favorite Futures: Options on Futures
 
Posts: 2,651 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 769 given, 4,579 received
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k20a View Post
Wrong expectation to have IMO..2 delta/98% OTM is if you hold til expiry no matter what, and does not consider premium at all. You could theoretically be blown up/negative net liquid value during the trade but end up reversing coming into 1c outside the strike, and it is still considered into the 98% OTM.

So to achieve 97.6% win rate, while using a stop limiting losses, is much more impressive than any delta can indicate.

98% OTM (Out of The Money)? 2 delta and 98% OTM are not related.

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  #3947 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
TPE, TW
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: ib tws
Favorite Futures: gbpusd, vix
 
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ron99 View Post
98% OTM (Out of The Money)? 2 delta and 98% OTM are not related.

Sorry I quoted tbs8877's post, - should've added the word probability. 98% probability OTM and 2 delta are related.

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  #3948 (permalink)
Elite Member
Singapore
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader meta trader
Favorite Futures: oil
 
Posts: 13 since Aug 2012
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ron99 View Post
I have never, ever sold ES calls. Too low ROI.

An Apr ES 2190 call (margin 1606) has a monthly ROI of <1%. An Apr 1300 put (margin 259) is in the 4% ROI range. Both are at 2.00 premium. Call delta of 5.11. Put delta of 1.26.

Much higher delta (risk) and far worse ROI. Why would anyone sell ES calls?

It is interesting that you have never sold ES calls. I have watched the videos by Karen The Supertrader interviewed by Tom Sosnoff. She makes substantial profits from selling both naked calls and puts on the SPX over a number of years. During certain years when the index was basically moving up she has found it challenging. Nevertheless she has continued to sell both calls and puts. It is certainly been worthwhile for her to do so.

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  #3949 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Cleveland, OH
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: QST
Broker/Data: QST, DeCarley Trading, Gain
Favorite Futures: Options on Futures
 
Posts: 2,651 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 769 given, 4,579 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary


tbs8877 View Post
It is interesting that you have never sold ES calls. I have watched the videos by Karen The Supertrader interviewed by Tom Sosnoff. She makes substantial profits from selling both naked calls and puts on the SPX over a number of years. During certain years when the index was basically moving up she has found it challenging. Nevertheless she has continued to sell both calls and puts. It is certainly been worthwhile for her to do so.

Yes I have watched them too. I highly agree with a lot of her strategy except selling of ES calls.

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  #3950 (permalink)
Elite Member
vancouver BC/Canada
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Zaner360, OX
Broker/Data: DeCaley
Favorite Futures: options
 
Posts: 234 since Jan 2015
Thanks: 13 given, 186 received


Well, here's the results of my first trade aaannndddd it didn't go well. Total premium collected $960 on CL. Trade was 27% out of the money and t turned on me inside of 30mins on Friday and the first 45mins on Monday morning. Oil shot up a whopping 13% and my mental stop was hit. I executed my trade but the bid/ask was not in my favor and viola...I got creamed. With the ratio spread I contained the damage but in the end I ended up down almost $3k.

The experience left me a little

and

It really sucks that this is how I have to start the experience but I did learn a lot and I'm taking that information with me to the next trade.

1. The position was too large relative to my account size. My gut told me but I ignored it, not again.
2. I need to sell further out of the money. A .04 delta was just not enough. After reading this thread a few times the number should be closer to .02 or .01. copied and pasted datahogg's post on the same thread to get an idea of just how far out. You still probably haven't noticed the rally . Congratulations man...I need to be more in tune with you and ron99's methods.
3. I need to diversify soon. My original goal was to trade one commodity at a time until I understood the fundamentals well and then add others. Although that sounded good it lends itself to big issues when a single trade goes against me. This is especially true as I'm making much smaller trades.
4. Only aim to make 3%-5% per trade. On this particular trade I tried to go with 10% and that just ended up burning me. See point 1.
5. Get a broker that won't nail me on margins. One of the main reasons I couldn't sell a strangle on my original position, which would have mitigated my losses even more, was because OX was adding so much additional margin to do it. This didn't leave me with the residual 3x cash. I've since opened an account with DeCarley and will see how that goes. I could have simply gone with a smaller trade but didn't...and that again goes back to point 1.
6. Losing hurts..not getting back in the game hurts more. I can see how easy it is to just quit and go back to my career and life but then I would learn anything and I know I can learn and be successful at this.

I'm hoping to get some feedback from the more seasoned people here when I structure my next trade. Thanks all.

/A/


Last edited by rsm005; February 3rd, 2015 at 12:32 AM.
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