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Should civil discourse about politics be allowed on FIO?


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Should civil discourse about politics be allowed on FIO?

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Hey guys,

It's 2021 and we're all hoping for positive change in the world, and a return to a bit more normalcy is soon upon us.

I would like to hear from you - should civil discourse of politics be allowed in the off-topic section of our community?

Politics often impact markets. There is also part of me that believes that we, as a community, have a lot to say about politics and the world events that affect us all.

There would be rules: a strong enforcement of civil posts. No incitement. No flames. No trolling.

I will be creating a site wide poll for this subject in the coming days, but the current poll is still running and needs to finish first. In the meantime, please share your thoughts.

Should civil discourse about politics be allowed on FIO?

Total votes: 688
 


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Guys,

I have one idea that might make this decision easier. What if I could make it so the Politics thread was completely anonymous? No display names next to posts? I am not sure I can, but I think so... it would take some doing, but I am actually kind of wanting a politics thread (can you tell) so I would be willing to try it.

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There are plenty of places on the Internet to argue politics.

I'd like to keep futures.io free of politics - except how maybe certain elections, etc could cause markets to change.

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I'm non US member of the site and I'm dependent on social media to get the understanding of the flow with US/EU politics. So, I certainly welcome the presence of those threads.

But I've also noticed strong possibility of those discussions going astray and resulting in unfortunate actions against otherwise civil and contributing members, so I would also echo Kevindogs very well put out sentiment in

Quoting 
I'd like to keep futures.io free of politics - except how maybe certain elections, etc could cause markets to change.


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kevinkdog View Post
There are plenty of places on the Internet to argue politics.

I'd like to keep futures.io free of politics - except how maybe certain elections, etc could cause markets to change.


LastDino View Post
I'm non US member of the site and I'm dependent on social media to get the understanding of the flow with US/EU politics. So, I certainly welcome the presence of those threads.

But I've also noticed strong possibility of those discussions going astray and resulting in unfortunate actions against otherwise civil and contributing members, so I would also echo Kevindogs very well put out sentiment in

Something like flame wars would be a problem.

The mods would stamp the flames out, but might get pretty busy.... Hence the strong civility requirement, with common agreement on showing retraint.

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kevinkdog View Post
There are plenty of places on the Internet to argue politics.

I'd like to keep futures.io free of politics - except how maybe certain elections, etc could cause markets to change.

Fully agree!

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I'd say, unless the context is to discuss how it may effect a market, politics is an annoyance.

COVID, the responses to it by leaders, and the willingness of the populace to accept anything, has made me hate humanity.

I participate in, and am inundated with politics ALL DAY. I come here to get away from the nonsense and chat with people about trading so I don't have to be reminded how much people suck.

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Big Mike View Post
Guys,

I have one idea that might make this decision easier. What if I could make it so the Politics thread was completely anonymous? No display names next to posts? I am not sure I can, but I think so... it would take some doing, but I am actually kind of wanting a politics thread (can you tell) so I would be willing to try it.

Mike

might make a shit storm of people throwing opinions at everyone, could see it turning into a bad idea but thats my 0.02

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I am a member of FIO for one reason...to be part of a trading community that supports each other to learn and grow as traders which you have certainly done here Mike. I enjoyed the beginnings of the Covid thread as it was talking about the markets reaction and there weren't the droves of conspiracy folks drumming up anything said on the web and presenting it as "evidence".

I agree, if a person wants to engage in the drama and divisiveness there are many options. I want to talk trading...period. A few times lately I was checking the Covid thread like a person looks at a car crash...and I hate that...so I just haven't looked again until I saw your name listed as last poster.

I've been here for 7 years and I can't recall having such issues until the current situation and all the fear it has brought up. So, for me...Imma stick to trading threads and let others discuss political issues. Longer than I planned...too much coffee perhaps.

Thanks Mike for taking the lead in any case...love FIO.

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It may not have been obvious, but for a good part of the past year the moderators have made a deliberate choice to discourage political expression, sometimes by requesting posters to refrain from politics, sometimes by just deleting political posts. I sent DM's to a couple of friends asking them to cool it. This was a policy decision we made to try to keep an even keel in the forum during difficult times.

I personally think that the point of this policy has been a good one: to keep political controversies out of the forum and let us focus on the things that we came here for and that we can find common ground on.

I also think that political developments can impact markets, so they are valid things to discuss from that perspective. And I think that **if** we can remember to respect each other -- which is the point of the forum's basic rule against rudeness -- then it may be possible to relax that policy and allow productive, civil, mutually respectful political discussions, along with everything else we allow and encourage.... Not free-for-alls, not one person blasting another for their opinion, but discussions between grown-ups.

In the past, I have had sometimes-intense political or social discussions here with people who had very different views from mine, and we were fine with it, because we knew not to take it personally. I also came away having learned something, a clear plus as I see it.

My take on Mike's suggestion is that, within a mutually-accepted and moderated context, we lift the restriction against politics within the off-topic area, as well as anywhere else where it is pertinent to trading. I am cautiously in favor of this idea. (Cautiously.) The important thing is that, just as no one gets to flame somebody because they don't like a particular trading style or opinion, no one gets to flame someone for their politics. Or anything else.

I understand why people would not want it here. But just as the covid thread started out being non-political in the bad sense, and initailly did have a range of useful opinions from many political viewpoints, I think it may be possible to relax the restriction against everything political while still maintaining, and enforcing, the fundamental futures.io rules of civility and respectful discussion.

Just my half a cent. This is not a simple question, not only because tempers can run high, but simply because many of us (including me) are just disgusted with the whole business of politics. But can it be done better? I hope so.

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Big Mike View Post
Hey guys,

It's 2021 and we're all hoping for positive change in the world, and a return to a bit more normalcy is soon upon us.

I would like to hear from you - should civil discourse of politics be allowed in the off-topic section of our community?

Politics often impact markets. There is also part of me that believes that we, as a community, have a lot to say about politics and the world events that affect us all.

There would be rules: a strong enforcement of civil posts. No incitement. No flames. No trolling.

I will be creating a site wide poll for this subject in the coming days, but the current poll is still running and needs to finish first. In the meantime, please share your thoughts.

Mike

Yes, Normalcy as for Covid...But US and World politics will be far from normal.

It will be sad to see civil discourse removed from futures.io because we all know that politics can affect the markets. JMHO.

Just one Example: If and when the new Administration starts removing Corporate tax cuts, the Markets could react with some vigor. It would be nice to see discussion as this plays out?

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Not fussed either way for a politics thread. I doubt I would post and as others have said, there are plenty of places on the internet where politics can be discussed.
Certainly no to anonymity: firstly because that inevitably makes the discourse more confrontational, secondly because lots of people use pseudonyms anyway, and if they are reluctant to stand up for their convictions, or be identified with them even behind a made up name, then I don't have much interest in reading their views.
And for anybody who uses their real name in this forum but feel unable to express those views despite good moderation, they are lots of alternative sites available for them to express themselves.

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discussion will serve no purpose except to rile up others. look at gun control debate, it has been going for year after year without changing anybody mind. Even after all the massacres very few people change their mind about how gun law should be. I expect politic discussion is of the same way, my points will fall on deaf ears any way.

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If any community were able to pull off any political discussion with mutual respect and without flaming, this would be it. If we keep it market-oriented, I think it can be done and vote yes.

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Absolutely. I have been looking for a place on the internet where I can discuss politics with people anonymously I don't know in real life but haven't been able to find one. I think this would fill a huge gap that exists on the interwebs.


Big Mike View Post
Hey guys,

It's 2021 and we're all hoping for positive change in the world, and a return to a bit more normalcy is soon upon us.

I would like to hear from you - should civil discourse of politics be allowed in the off-topic section of our community?

Politics often impact markets. There is also part of me that believes that we, as a community, have a lot to say about politics and the world events that affect us all.

There would be rules: a strong enforcement of civil posts. No incitement. No flames. No trolling.

I will be creating a site wide poll for this subject in the coming days, but the current poll is still running and needs to finish first. In the meantime, please share your thoughts.

Mike


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@Big Mike,

FuturesIO is for TRADING REVIEWS & STRATEGIES ... period. Don't pollute it with POLITICS ... the TV channels, with their respective BIASES, are always there for all the POLITICS of the world. POLITICS is dirty ... VERY DIRTY, all over the world.

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I don't think having a political discussion area is a problem.
I look at the ES and commodities areas on the site, and occasionally elsewhere and that's it. Hardly ever look at offtopic area and have only recently done so. And that's the key point-the offtopic zone is an entirely separate area from the trading sections of the site. And that's how it should stay.

Having political discussions within trading threads is quite another matter and these should be stamped on immediately if it is not relevant to trading/markets/what is being discussed.

If you like the trading forums on here then having an offtopic/political zone will in no way impact the trading sections. It's a completely different part of the site and if you don't want to know the opinions being put forward on the offtopic section of the site then guess what.


Don't look.

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cory View Post
discussion will serve no purpose except to rile up others. look at gun control debate, it has been going for year after year without changing anybody mind. Even after all the massacres very few people change their mind about how gun law should be. I expect politic discussion is of the same way, my points will fall on deaf ears any way.

I recall having some good discussions here on gun control a while ago, with considerable passion from members who were pro (I was, and so were some others) and against (several others were.) Because everyone kept it on a non-personal plane, disagreeing when we did but not flaming or trolling the others, it went pretty well and I feel I learned from it, and that the members who disagreed with each other on the subject still can be cordial with each other.

I think this is possible -- just not the usual internet thing, but still possible, I hope here on futures.io.

I understand the idea that politics in basically a messy, dirty business involving a lot of mutual dislike and shouting. I wonder if it has to be, everywhere and at all times. I think not. It just takes a willingness to do it on a different basis.

Bob.

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WoodyFox View Post
Yes, Normalcy as for Covid...But US and World politics will be far from normal.

It will be sad to see civil discourse removed from futures.io because we all know that politics can affect the markets. JMHO.

Just one Example: If and when the new Administration starts removing Corporate tax cuts, the Markets could react with some vigor. It would be nice to see discussion as this plays out?

At a minimum, a trading site has to have discussions about the impact of political actions on the markets.

This would not, imo, be just in the off-topic area. It can be very on-topic.... Looking at it objectively, not from a partisan position, but trying to figure out what the impact might be.

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bobwest View Post
At a minimum, a trading site has to have discussions about the impact of political actions on the markets.

This would not, imo, be just in the off-topic area. It can be very on-topic.... Looking at it objectively, not from a partisan position, but trying to figure out what the impact might be.

Bob.

Agreed.
I asked the same thing earlier on the official Covid thread. What's the outlook for markets considering what we know at the moment?

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bobwest View Post
I recall having some good discussions here on gun control a while ago...
Bob.

actually without politic discussion I will never know about how nutty those SC software engineer folks are. So yes, fire away, I did learn something new.

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Big Mike View Post
Guys,



I have one idea that might make this decision easier. What if I could make it so the Politics thread was completely anonymous? No display names next to posts? I am not sure I can, but I think so... it would take some doing, but I am actually kind of wanting a politics thread (can you tell) so I would be willing to try it.



Mike



I think anonymous discourse is part of the problem nowadays. I would vote no to that part.

OTH i think a discussion area on politics may be interesting.



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News and politics has a significant impact on my own trading. A large part of my analysis is trying to determine when order flow is being caused by informed trading, and if so what information the trading might be based on. In my view the execution cost of a trade tends to arbitrage away any statistical aberrations in market behavior that you might discover. Therefore a more reliable source of edge for a retail day trader is limiting your trading to situations where you have an informational advantage. That is to mean when you understand how your instrument reacts to news better than most other market participants.

For Futures trading one of the most common sources for such market moving news is related to politics. That makes understanding politics essential to predicting markets. Unfortunately, there is almost no discussion on these topics on the forum today. So to that point I believe that allowing political discussion on the forum would be extremely beneficial. Political discussion will always have a tendency to become somewhat toxic, but that is an issue that can be managed. It is important to allow people to express their political opinions so that we can better understand how others think. Those that don't wish to participate in such discussion can chose to not participate in those threads.

If such threads are allowed I would also recommend trying to create some way of separating or identifying discussion that is based on debate or opinion, and discussion that is analysis. The difference between what actually happens, and what you want to happen. This way discussion about the actual implications of specific events on markets doesn't get overwhelmed by people pushing their favored political outcome. This is also why I'd lean in favor of identifying posters. That way we can factor in people's personal biases when we read their analysis.

If there are still concerns then I would suggest taking a look at https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/ On that subreddit discussion is tightly moderated, and all top level comments require a citation. It's maybe not as fun, but it is much more effective at creating an informative discussion.

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TWDsje View Post
News and politics has a significant impact on my own trading. A large part of my analysis is trying to determine when order flow is being caused by informed trading, and if so what information the trading might be based on. In my view the execution cost of a trade tends to arbitrage away any statistical aberrations in market behavior that you might discover. Therefore a more reliable source of edge for a retail day trader is limiting your trading to situations where you have an informational advantage. That is to mean when you understand how your instrument reacts to news better than most other market participants.

For Futures trading one of the most common sources for such market moving news is related to politics. That makes understanding politics essential to predicting markets. Unfortunately, there is almost no discussion on these topics on the forum today. So to that point I believe that allowing political discussion on the forum would be extremely beneficial. Political discussion will always have a tendency to become somewhat toxic, but that is an issue that can be managed. It is important to allow people to express their political opinions so that we can better understand how others think. Those that don't wish to participate in such discussion can chose to not participate in those threads.

If such threads are allowed I would also recommend trying to create some way of separating or identifying discussion that is based on debate or opinion, and discussion that is analysis. The difference between what actually happens, and what you want to happen. This way discussion about the actual implications of specific events on markets doesn't get overwhelmed by people pushing their favored political outcome. This is also why I'd lean in favor of identifying posters. That way we can factor in people's personal biases when we read their analysis.

If there are still concerns then I would suggest taking a look at https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/ On that subreddit discussion is tightly moderated, and all top level comments require a citation. It's maybe not as fun, but it is much more effective at creating an informative discussion.

Well Said! I couldn't agree more... Thanks for posting this.

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The new poll is up, so you can cast your vote and continue the discussion:

Should civil discourse about politics be allowed on FIO?

Total votes: 688
 


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The new poll is up, so you can cast your vote and continue the discussion:



Mike

You missed one:

"Yes, with looser rules."

EDIT: I see you added 'something else'

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TWDsje View Post

If there are still concerns then I would suggest taking a look at https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/ On that subreddit discussion is tightly moderated, and all top level comments require a citation. It's maybe not as fun, but it is much more effective at creating an informative discussion.

I am interested in your thoughts and experience here. Can you please point out a few examples of how this works better?

At first glance, a very strict citation requirement would really seem to squealsh any freedom of expression (aka their opinions). How can the conversation move forward in this case?

Mike

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  #28 (permalink)
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So as an example of them handling a hot topic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/ks0wjg/the_terms_sedition_treason_and_insurrection_have/

Only the top level comments need citations, and so they all contain actual factual information. They also ask pretty specific questions which allow strict enforcement of staying on topic. All the resources you'd ever want to understand it. The laws in question, and past cases. Did you know there was an attack on congress in 1954?

https://www.reddit.com/r/NeutralPolitics/comments/jha3f1/is_a_federal_mask_mandate_legally_permissible/

Here again actual informational content. Discussion about difficulties with federal enforcement and using federal funding to pressure states. Past legal cases dealing with fining people for not being vaccinated. Articles discussing the constitutionality of such an order. If you are trying to determine the actual probability of something happening all the information is there.

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  #29 (permalink)
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There are rules, and there is application.

The following is based on my experiences at years of political discussion forum participation and non-attorney representation of employees.

Regarding Rules:

Successful political forums seem to:
  • Allow more leeway than the non-political counterparts of the same website.
  • Require/warn participants that thick skin is required.
  • Allow labeling where a reasonable, thick-skinned person would deem it appropriate (doofus, clown, etc.)
  • Allow a block feature; where the person that is blocked, can't see the posts of the blocker. And the blocker can't see the posts of the blockee.
  • Disallow non-factual racism, and other Title VII-like subject-matter.
  • Utilized consistent enforcement. (One moderator?)
  • Rely more so on responding to complaints, rather than actively looking for violations.
  • Doesn't allow Admin to reveal private information of members, to other members.
  • Doesn't allow Admin to engage in political discussions.
  • * I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff; may supplement if so.
  • Keep political forum separated from main forum.

Regarding Applications:

The organized labor sector, along with management, utilizes a standard "Just Clause" concept with regard to rules and enforcement. It has passed the test of time, and is supported by the courts. However, it's value can extend beyond labor relations.

You can probably get the gist of it, and imagine how it can apply to moderation efforts, by visiting here:

https://hr.berkeley.edu/hr-network/central-guide-managing-hr/managing-hr/er-labor/disciplinary/just-cause

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  #30 (permalink)
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Forgot to add that a political forum can be a lot of fun. It really ain't that serious folks.

Here's an example where insults and contention works, though not rooted in politics. This is a classic battle. I have two other must see classics if anyone is interested and the Admin doesn't mind the postings.

Mature Subject Matter:


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  #31 (permalink)
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Each post has a 'kick' button. Readers have the option to kick the post if they find it offensive or trolling or whatever. If it gets to say 10 kicks, then it is auto-deleted by the system. That way no one can complain that a moderator is biased against them and the community gets to self-police who stays and who goes. Citations are an ok idea but political topics tend to flow hot and fast. is there going to be any time to cite when one is on the offensive and has a point to prove?

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Grantx View Post
Each post has a 'kick' button. Readers have the option to kick the post if they find it offensive or trolling or whatever. If it gets to say 10 kicks, then it is auto-deleted by the system. That way no one can complain that a moderator is biased against them and the community gets to self-police who stays and who goes. Citations are an ok idea but political topics tend to flow hot and fast. is there going to be any time to cite when one is on the offensive and has a point to prove?

Don't think this would work.

People clique up; in groups larger than ten etc. (Right vs. Left.)

Would turn into an autodelete fest.

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  #33 (permalink)
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Ever since Trump came down the escalator, I have tried to have a decent conversation with "Them".
"They" believe their version of reality is the only True reality.
"We" believe that the only True version of reality is ours.

Plug in either party that you want for "Them", "They" and "We"... It can only degrade into a shouting match or worse.
If you never lost a friend or family member over a political argument, then Vote Yes. I have to Vote No.

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Ever since Trump came down the escalator, I have tried to have a decent conversation with "Them".
"They" believe their version of reality is the only True reality.
"We" believe that the only True version of reality is ours.

Plug in either party that you want for "Them", "They" and "We"... It can only degrade into a shouting match or worse.
If you never lost a friend or family member over a political argument, then Vote Yes. I have to Vote No.

What if you didn't have to enter, or be exposed to the political forum. And those that wanted political discussion could have it, separate and apart from the main forum.

Would you still vote no?

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Not aiming at you, just picking here to chime in...

But what is the solution as Americans?

"Oh well" ?

I'm suggesting that, perhaps, it's worth trying to educate the other side. Not alternative facts, but you know, real facts.

I say the sky is blue and the other guy says red, I think there is at least an opportunity for everyone to hear out our fellow Americans and try to understand their position. I should ask how they arrived at their conclusion, and they should do the same of me.

Common ground can be found (perhaps we both agree water is wet) and we can work up from there.

I guess I'm just not willing to say "oh well, fuck it" and give up on the idea that I believe America still (can, may) stand for. If we don't talk to each other, we probably just continue to harden our position. But if we do start talking, maybe some good can come.

I thought that all of us being traders could provide that relatable foundation and common ground and we go from there, for the good of our families, our kids, and restore the America we all desire it to be.

RichardV2 View Post
Ever since Trump came down the escalator, I have tried to have a decent conversation with "Them".
"They" believe their version of reality is the only True reality.
"We" believe that the only True version of reality is ours.

Plug in either party that you want for "Them", "They" and "We"... It can only degrade into a shouting match or worse.
If you never lost a friend or family member over a political argument, then Vote Yes. I have to Vote No.

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  #36 (permalink)
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The sky is red and if you say otherwise it just show how racist and privileged you are.
Big Mike View Post
Not aiming at you, just picking here to chime in...

But what is the solution as Americans?

"Oh well" ?

I'm suggesting that, perhaps, it's worth trying to educate the other side. Not alternative facts, but you know, real facts.

I say the sky is blue and the other guy says red, I think there is at least an opportunity for everyone to hear out our fellow Americans and try to understand their position. I should ask how they arrived at their conclusion, and they should do the same of me.

Common ground can be found (perhaps we both agree water is wet) and we can work up from there.

I guess I'm just not willing to say "oh well, fuck it" and give up on the idea that I believe America still (can, may) stand for. If we don't talk to each other, we probably just continue to harden our position. But if we do start talking, maybe some good can come.

I thought that all of us being traders could provide that relatable foundation and common ground and we go from there, for the good of our families, our kids, and restore the America we all desire it to be.


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  #37 (permalink)
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Cant quote direct yet..
I'm suggesting that, perhaps, it's worth trying to educate the other side. Not alternative facts, but you know, real facts.

Just saying...no such thing as facts in politics especially not if spoken by a politician. Peoples confirmation bias wont let them acknowledge what goes against what they believe/think anyway unless it matches the agenda of themselves and their political party.

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  #38 (permalink)
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Great poll, @Big Mike ! I'm coming into this discussion late, but I'm with most others in my sentiment: there are plenty of other places on the internet for politics. Politics do not really impact trading in the long term, and this is coming from mouths of professional asset managers I follow. For those who trade the news or very short term, yeah, there are bumps that may come from a politician's tweet here or there, but in the long run the impact is blunted. That is my perspective as a market technician.

On the flip side, as @cory mentioned, I would not have found out about the SC support forum fiasco if not for FIO. That thread, however, was not political per se (and in my opinion), but relevant to the traders here. That information helps traders decide: do I want to use software developed by people who support unsubstantiated and potentially dangerous conspiracy theories? I won't go into why this might be a security risk. Just sayin'.

With that being stated, I have fired two partners in the past six months for bringing politics and conspiracy theories into my professional sphere, including one vendor. I have no place nor tolerance for it. We've got business to do.... let's get to it and make money.

There are people here with whom I share a worldview and others with whom our worldviews differ. I want to respect people for what they can teach, learn and share about trading (and the occasional funny pic), without having to see them through a filter of 'leftist', 'far-right', 'centrist', etc. I've got enough to keep my mind occupied as it is.

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daviedave View Post
Cant quote direct yet..
I'm suggesting that, perhaps, it's worth trying to educate the other side. Not alternative facts, but you know, real facts.

Just saying...no such thing as facts in politics especially not if spoken by a politician. Peoples confirmation bias wont let them acknowledge what goes against what they believe/think anyway unless it matches the agenda of themselves and their political party.

Over half my family suffers from confirmation bias.... sadly they don't know what that is and I cannot convince them to step back and find an unbiased source for information. It takes a little bit of rigor/discipline to do so, but it is easier to just consume the media with which you have become accustomed. I think it is, in part, laziness.

~vmodus

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And this is exactly why studies show that arguing with people or presenting evidence contrary to their false beliefs tends to just make them cling to their false beliefs more. They will always see the flaws in other tribes and never the flaws in their own. We end up arguing about sources and semantics instead of presenting empirical evidence.

That's why we have to have markets. It's the only way to allow participants to express their beliefs and attach consequences. When we do that 95% of people end up failing. Go figure.

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TWDsje View Post
And this is exactly why studies show that arguing with people or presenting evidence contrary to their false beliefs tends to just make them cling to their false beliefs more. They will always see the flaws in other tribes and never the flaws in their own. We end up arguing about sources and semantics instead of presenting empirical evidence.

That's why we have to have markets. It's the only way to allow participants to express their beliefs and attach consequences. When we do that 95% of people end up failing. Go figure.

Astute observation. This reminds me of an episode of the documentary TV series, Through the Wormhole. Episode 1 of season 6 is about bigotry ( Are We All Bigots?), but it dove into tribes and why people tend to defend their tribe, even if their tribe is an assigned one, like an elementary/primary school. It is an interesting episode if you can get your hands on it.

Now, imagine if FIO members and ForexFactory members got into a flame war over which community is better, etc..... just a thought. It is all arbitrary to me, but maybe not to others.

~vmodus

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userque View Post
What if you didn't have to enter, or be exposed to the political forum. And those that wanted political discussion could have it, separate and apart from the main forum.

Would you still vote no?

If I didn't have to ever click on the "Political Discussion" Button, then I would Vote YES! I respect Freedom of Speech when I have the choice to listen or not.

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TWDsje View Post
And this is exactly why studies show that arguing with people or presenting evidence contrary to their false beliefs tends to just make them cling to their false beliefs more. They will always see the flaws in other tribes and never the flaws in their own. We end up arguing about sources and semantics instead of presenting empirical evidence.

Well said.

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... It can only degrade into a shouting match or worse..

Who are the fact checkers? Without a common set of facts, how do we communicate?

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TWDsje View Post
And this is exactly why studies show that arguing with people or presenting evidence contrary to their false beliefs tends to just make them cling to their false beliefs more.

Do you have a peer reviewed citation for that? Or at least some data and statistics from an established verified source to support your assertion? Otherwise I will have to reject everything you have just said due to the lack of objective academic sources.

See how boring that gets?

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  #46 (permalink)
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The term "peer reviewed" is steeped in systemic inequality and offensive, please remove this post.
Grantx View Post
Do you have a peer reviewed citation for that? Or at least some data and statistics from an established verified source to support your assertion? Otherwise I will have to reject everything you have just said due to the lack of objective academic sources.

See how boring that gets?


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Grantx View Post
Do you have a peer reviewed citation for that? Or at least some data and statistics from an established verified source to support your assertion? Otherwise I will have to reject everything you have just said due to the lack of objective academic sources.

See how boring that gets?


BertV View Post
The term "peer reviewed" is steeped in systemic inequality and offensive, please remove this post.

Actually, I think his intent was sarcastic in presenting an example of how someone might dogmatically, and wrongly, challenge another person's opinion with the demand for an academic citation. I don't think it was meant as a serious expression by @Grantx himself -- quite the contrary, because he then said, "See how boring that gets?"

I do think that @Grantx could have been more clear in how he expressed it. There is a place for nuance, and sometimes for speaking indirectly and even sarcastically, but it is easily possible to be misunderstood. If taken on its face, it can be read as picking a fight or as being offensive, which I do not think was the intention.

As a moderator, I am leaving the post as-is, with this comment about it. I think that we must have a care about how our statements might be read by another person, and put clarity first, especially in any discussion that deals with touchy areas where feelings may run high.

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  #48 (permalink)
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My suggestion is that the political discussion board be for elite members only.

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Grantx View Post
Do you have a peer reviewed citation for that? Or at least some data and statistics from an established verified source to support your assertion? Otherwise I will have to reject everything you have just said due to the lack of objective academic sources.

Sure. Here's a wikipedia page on the subject that has numerous references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance

Here's an article about a specific study where they tried different ways of convincing people vaccines were safe, and their attempts largely failed:
https://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/i-dont-want-to-be-right

We could keep going if we really want to dig into it.


Quoting 
See how boring that gets?

Well, I don't find it boring. I hate it when people don't believe me, but I'll always do the extra work. I don't just pull this stuff out of nowhere ya know.

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  #50 (permalink)
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...I hate it when people don't believe me...

Hopefully, you'll one day reach a level of enlightenment whereby you simply won't give af if people believe you.

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BertV View Post
My suggestion is that the political discussion board be for elite members only.

I find it interesting you make this recommendation when you aren't Elite. Is that your way to ensure you never see it? LOL


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I propose the political forum be for members who meet a certain level of sophistication, dress code and net worth.

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Moderated political discussions on how policy impacts the market, I'm OK with. General discussions of politics, I'm not.

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Will it be compulsory to enter into the discussions? I presume not.

So, why would anyone (like me, who has no interest in discussing politics on here) have a problem with those who do - if those things are in their own category/thread?

If anything, having its own sandpit, might prevent those topics from creeping into other, non-political threads.

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If we value our rights and freedom, vigilance requires that we speak up. With authoritarian (corporate / government) fascism manifesting itself in America, markets are being adversely affected. I have plenty of "hate speech" that has built up with journalism's morphing into DP propaganda, and the "big brother"rules which now guide the legacy (formerly valid) news outlets. (The feminized millennials at Yahoo Finance has silenced our voice, which would otherwise call their propaganda into account.) Political correctness is destroying us. PATRIOTISM has become a dirty word. Feminization of males is in full swing -just listen to all the parroting about "civility." Man up. Real men speak their minds when wrong is upon us. But they do it with focus and mitigate the temptation to give way to "steam."

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JoeDee View Post
Will it be compulsory to enter into the discussions? I presume not.

So, why would anyone (like me, who has no interest in discussing politics on here) have a problem with those who do - if those things are in their own category/thread?

If anything, having its own sandpit, might prevent those topics from creeping into other, non-political threads.

I'm amazed that this is not obvious to most.

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userque View Post
I'm amazed that this is not obvious to most.

....especially to a bunch of traders. Aren't we supposed to be the poster boys for 'Taking responsibility'?

Damn! I just missed a winning trade because of you - 'userque'

Why I oughtta........

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US is crisis-racked with armed militias groups roaming its ethnically polarized restless interior

The division that are now so polarized in America that they will eventually tear the country apart.

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userque View Post
Hopefully, you'll one day reach a level of enlightenment whereby you simply won't give af if people believe you.

Or simply, just don't waste time on it and move on with life and trade with peaceful mind

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Or simply, just don't waste time on it and move on with life and trade with peaceful mind

Or simply enjoy the fact that when you have died, it wont matter what happens to a once great American Nation.

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Or simply enjoy the fact that when you have died, it wont matter what happens to a once great American Nation.

Nations come and go, greatness is hardly a reserved spot. Why let it effect our own little life

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There are plenty of places on the Internet to argue politics.

I'd like to keep futures.io free of politics - except how maybe certain elections, etc could cause markets to change.

Agree 100% There's no such thing as "civil talk" about politics. It's a species that died out a long time ago.
Also, humans tend to bear a grudge. Before you know it, people's politics will be dragged into everything.

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  #63 (permalink)
 
 
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My opinion is that on a risk/reward or cost/benefit basis, this is not a likely winner. Politics have become somewhat of a religion for many. People's views are often defended at all cost, so it would be similar to everyone standing up, blocking their ears and shouting their views at the top of their voice. There are a TON of places for that everywhere including Reddit.

My experience is that those discussion inevitably break down into name-calling, racism and so on.

I personally see FIO as a safe-haven for traders to focus. But this is just 1 vote.

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  #64 (permalink)
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I agree with the majority. Politics are generally divisive and do not belong within a community built on common goals.

However there are statistics and other information about politics, election years, various party combinations, etc. that statistically affect trading.

This is the only time politics are appropriate because it is about trading. Lets stick to the subject.

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  #65 (permalink)
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kevinkdog View Post
There are plenty of places on the Internet to argue politics.

I'd like to keep futures.io free of politics - except how maybe certain elections, etc could cause markets to change.

Absolutely agree. No aluminum hats.
No alternative facts.
No politics outside of issues relevant to the stock market.

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  #66 (permalink)
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Hello all, as a rare lurker on this site I would like to introduce myself and give my two cents opinion 😉.

I understand the distaste for flame wars and rabbit hole ranting. That being said I personally find value in discourse and critical thinking material of all types.

Other unrelated forums I have seen separate threads and may have 'cleanly' moderated threads and another no holds barred thread for the same topic.

My personal interest and limited military experience have led me to form opinions aligned with the protection of freedom of speech.

As far as conspiracy theories, the factually supported evidence I find often reveals they may be true, debased lies with a thread of truth or sometimes even gaslighting operations performed by 'psychological operations' departments.

I say let it fly!

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  #67 (permalink)
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Back in the 90's I was a regular, morning mostly, CNBC watcher. Then at a certain point I found it a big distraction and either left it off or muted when on. Later when they went too far into politics, regardless of whether there was a business aspect to a particular discussion or not, they lost me. For good.

So I think you can guess how I feel about this topic. Even though, like most, I do participate on other forums.

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  #68 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
Hey guys,

It's 2021 and we're all hoping for positive change in the world, and a return to a bit more normalcy is soon upon us.

I would like to hear from you - should civil discourse of politics be allowed in the off-topic section of our community?

Politics often impact markets. There is also part of me that believes that we, as a community, have a lot to say about politics and the world events that affect us all.

There would be rules: a strong enforcement of civil posts. No incitement. No flames. No trolling.

I will be creating a site wide poll for this subject in the coming days, but the current poll is still running and needs to finish first. In the meantime, please share your thoughts.



Mike

"Civil Discourse about Politics" is an Oximoron, There is nothing civil about politics and it is best left alone.
Imposing "rules" just redirects the discourse to be like coral reefs which are very sharp and creates dangerous currents to all swimmers.
There is no such thing as "Civil" when it comes to politics today.

People need a place, like trading discussions, where we can forget about politics.
Can't this place be an asylum from that?

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  #69 (permalink)
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Politics, like religion, can never be civil... for very long.

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  #70 (permalink)
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There are many other places for discussing politics, let's keep FIO all about trading.

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  #71 (permalink)
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If politics and world events influence price (and it surely does) why should we be afraid of discussing them? Additionally, I don't want some faceless, unidentified moderator deciding what gets posted. The world has enough of that bullshit already.

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  #72 (permalink)
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You can just go over to Zero Hedge and vent your political fantasies.

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  #73 (permalink)
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Discuss politics when making a clear relationship to members market expectation, else avoid it.

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  #74 (permalink)
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As long as everyone agrees that the point is to discuss the market impact of the politics and not the "true merits" of the politics.

Put differently, there should be no discussion of what is good or bad politically. Instead, the discussion should what affects the politics has on the markets.

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  #75 (permalink)
SpeculatorSeth
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Let me take a stab at this from a different direction.

Definition of politics from Wikipedia: "Politics is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status."

Is that not what a market is? We gather together in a group to decide on a price in a system that involves power relations between different participants, and the distribution of resources.

MARKETS ARE POLITICS

The idea that you can somehow separate them into two different buckets is a fundamental misunderstanding of the system of which were are engaged in. The market is not some machine. It's a living system that is constantly evolving and changing based on the decisions that we make. That's politics. Trading without understanding that living system and the direction it is pointing will lead to bad trading. Especially at this point with how involved the federal government is in the workings of the financial market. Would we even have a market right now if it wasn't for the Federal Reserve and Fiscal Stimulus? (aka: politics). If a headline comes out tomorrow with a surprise change in the size of the next stimulus check, that's going to trump anything you see on your chart or volume. Given this situation I would not recommend ignoring how Joe Manchin might vote on further stimulus spending. Because it matters. It probably matters more than almost anything else you can look at right now.

Do people have disagreements and fight sometimes in politics? Yes. That's just how it goes, and it is no different in trading. It might not seem so apparent when you're online instead of behind the CME by the horse, but it is the nature of the thing. Conflicts are involved in any system that involves power dynamics and different interests. If that process is not something you enjoy then I'd suggest finding a different profession.

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  #76 (permalink)
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Politics in regards to the merits or detriment of proposed or passed legislation and regulation as it applies to finance and economics... yes, please.

Pontificating about one's worldview? I don't know. I could take it or leave it.

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  #77 (permalink)
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I haven't posted before, but I have done a lot of reading on the forum, and this is a question I have a connection to so I thought I would comment. My vote is absolutely, emphatically yes. The reason for this is that as a software engineer involved in algorithm design, I have seen exactly how our heightened degree of choice in terms of the information we are exposed to serves to limit and reinforce our views. Social media algorithms, TV networks with either a liberal or a conservative bias (but rarely neutral), right or left wing blogs and publications . . . it's all an echo chamber that cuts us off from opposing views and further divides us. We've begun to want and expect for everything we are shown to be pre-tailored to our own personal views, and become increasingly intolerant of any disagreeing opinions--to the point where we can't even engage in rational civil discourse anymore. I don't believe this is sustainable, and for this reason, I've been lobbying social media networks to change their algorithms for some time now. Unfortunately, I don't expect that they ever will. But maybe there is still room for exposure to alternate perspectives in online communities such as this one.

I understand this forum wasn't created to discuss politics, but it is a community, and I think people should be able to speak to each other about it if they wish, while maintaining mutual respect. Yes, politics is difficult to talk about, perhaps more so now than ever before. That is exactly why we need to be able to discuss it in a respectful and controlled manner. I believe it is bad for society for us to compartmentalize ourselves into this political view or that one, until we are so disdainful of any belief that doesn't match our own that we aren't even able to see our shared identity as Americans (in my case, anyway--it works the same for whatever nationality you pick). This compartmentalization is the problem, not the solution.

I hope you will allow civil discussion of politics on the forum, in appropriate subsections if this is deemed necessary. What we need is more communication and mutual understanding. Not less.

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  #78 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
Hey guys,

I would like to hear from you - should civil discourse of politics be allowed in the off-topic section of our community?

Mike

"civil discourse of politics"?

There is no such beast. That is the epitome of an oxymoron.

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  #79 (permalink)
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Naw, I get what you are saying about citations and rules and moderation, etc. but I come here for trading ideas and information, not politics. So statements about actions taken by politicians or governments that affect the markets are both fine to post and are, by definition, statements of fact -- e.g. "Yellen called a meeting over concerns of market manipulation."

To hear someone's opinion about the meeting or about market manipulation or what should or should not be done about it is, for me, just flotsam and jetsam that I have to wade through to get to useful information. E.g. "There was an options sweep yesterday of <fill in the blank>."

If political opinions were delegated to their own room, that would be fine. But otherwise, I already have a venue for discussing politics - I mean, really, how many public forums can you go to and NOT be hit in the face with political discussion.

"And that's all I have to say about that." Forest Gump.

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  #80 (permalink)
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koganam View Post
"civil discourse of politics"?

There is no such beast. That is the epitome of an oxymoron.

Since it's been done, it can't be an oxymoron. I admit I am uncertain why you believe that, but I think it may be symptomatic of the problem. In fact, civil discourse one of the major goals of any democratic system, including our own. It is hard to imagine a lasting democracy where people cannot express alternate political viewpoints to each other and still remain rational human beings. You have a choice whether to maintain civility with people you disagree with, either in politics or anything else.

If you really believe this kind of behavior doesn't exist, try watching old news broadcasts or even political debates on YouTube prior to the year 2000. It isn't impossible--it just requires a bit of self management and a basic level of politeness.

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  #81 (permalink)
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farkuldi View Post
Since it's been done, it can't be an oxymoron. I admit I am uncertain why you believe that, but I think it may be symptomatic of the problem. In fact, civil discourse one of the major goals of any democratic system, including our own. It is hard to imagine a lasting democracy where people cannot express alternate political viewpoints to each other and still remain rational human beings. You have a choice whether to maintain civility with people you disagree with, either in politics or anything else.

If you really believe this kind of behavior doesn't exist, try watching old news broadcasts or even political debates on YouTube prior to the year 2000. It isn't impossible--it just requires a bit of self management and a basic level of politeness.

I agree!

Politics, in and of itself, isn't uncivil. Uncivil people are uncivil; and civil people can act uncivilized when attacked by the uncivil.

Banning political discussion due to a minority of uncivilized participants is like banning recess for all school kids because of a fear that a few bullies might show up.

The goal should be to either reform the uncivilized; or excommunicate them--not to limit our discussions.

And in light of the repeated statements here that some don't want to see politics here ... it has been suggested more than once that the political discussions could be separated from the trading discussions. Those that don't want to see political discussions, would not have to enter into, nor see, the political discussions if such a setup were utilized.

_______________
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  #82 (permalink)
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Well that didn't take too long to morph into religion "Come now, and let us reason together ..." is taken from Is 1:18. Religion and Politics - 2 strange bedfellows

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  #83 (permalink)
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Ricky G View Post
Well that didn't take too long to morph into religion "Come now, and let us reason together ..." is taken from Is 1:18. Religion and Politics - 2 strange bedfellows

Until now, it was just a signature line ... and not meant to be part of a discussion ... and intentionally didn't have a Bible reference.

Speaking of strange ...

LOL at the fact that you chose that to be the topic of your third, ever, post here ... since 2013!

I guess I can have that type of effect on people.

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  #84 (permalink)
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Meh...
We're all here for something else. Yes, politics can move the market, but politics won't make me a better trader. I think I'd do better w/o the distraction. Besides, I already have a headache

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  #85 (permalink)
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I support all those who voted for discussing only political news that has some valuable market impact. And in this case, nothing will change in regard to moderation.
No religion, politics or programming languages arguments!

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  #86 (permalink)
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I am of the opinion that politics manifest from word to deed. It is an extension of a personality into a personal representative. In other words, if you are a person of honor, than you want an honorable person representing you and if you are a thief, you want a thief to represent you. Hence, in the end it is a battle of morals vs. no morals? While I think there is only 1 party (The Pinocchio Party) I also realize there are a few good eggs. But to say even this statement is now a political statement. My party does not exist because it is not of this world. I am only here to watch as liars and moralists kill each other. In the end there can be only one said the Highlander. Ultimately, this worlds politics is about control of others. Something that has been going on since the beginning. And what is sad to me is that people allow others to control their lives. Does this count as a vote?

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  #87 (permalink)
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All states are represented by two senators. So a citizen of California with a population 40 million (which is 39% white) is represented by two senators – as are the 570,000 people who live in the state of Wyoming (which is 92% white). This means that voters in older, rural and majority-white states are significantly over-represented in both the Senate and presidential elections. This may explain the fact that out of nearly 2,000 people who have served in the Senate since 1789 only 10 have been black.

It will only get worse. According to author Ezra Klein “By 2040, 70% of Americans will live in the 15 largest states. That means 70% of America will be represented by only 30 senators, while the other 30% of America will be represented by 70 senators.” Klein has neatly summarised the problem thus: “One of the biggest problems with American democracy is that it’s not democratic.”
The scourges that afflict America have lasted 400 years– the first enslaved people arrived in 1619– not four years ago.

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  #88 (permalink)
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martinhunting View Post
All states are represented by two senators. So a citizen of California with a population 40 million (which is 39% white) is represented by two senators – as are the 570,000 people who live in the state of Wyoming (which is 92% white). This means that voters in older, rural and majority-white states are significantly over-represented in both the Senate and presidential elections. This may explain the fact that out of nearly 2,000 people who have served in the Senate since 1789 only 10 have been black.

It will only get worse. According to author Ezra Klein “By 2040, 70% of Americans will live in the 15 largest states. That means 70% of America will be represented by only 30 senators, while the other 30% of America will be represented by 70 senators.” Klein has neatly summarised the problem thus: “One of the biggest problems with American democracy is that it’s not democratic.”
The scourges that afflict America have lasted 400 years– the first enslaved people arrived in 1619– not four years ago.

Yes Maybe this is the trend, but think about this.... White Americans split Democrat / Republican about 40/60. Black Americans split 90/10.


In Georgia the Black vote was most crucial. There was 2.5 million votes for each Democrat Senator. Of the 2.5 million for each Democrat Senator, nearly 1.6 million per Senator was by black Americans. "Power in numbers". (Georgia does have the highest Black American Population by State at 32%)

Also to think about, More and More Black Americans are moving in the ranks of the Republican party. Another 20 years of this and well you get the picture.

Or maybe even Tim Scott in 2024... Game Set Match.

Just some thoughts.

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  #89 (permalink)
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If futures.io allows politcal speech will futures.io be responsible for monitoring and removing hate speech or be deplatformed like Parler. Futures.io would be exposing itself and users to unecessary risk.

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  #90 (permalink)
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IconBob View Post
If futures.io allows politcal speech will futures.io be responsible for monitoring and removing hate speech or be deplatformed like Parler. Futures.io would be exposing itself and users to unecessary risk.

I believe the problem Parler had was allowing the planning of violence.

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  #91 (permalink)
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There would be little to no civil discourse about Politics on this board. Personally I voted no.
I would avoid that topic completely.

Kliebert

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  #92 (permalink)
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No, no, no. When it comes to politics, religion like in certain topics you end up the discussion insulting one part to the other.

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  #93 (permalink)
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America is at a crossroad and this debate is timely there needs to be a discussion about whether America stays a democracy and the rule of law or becomes a totalitarian state. A coup d’état attempt by insurrectionist trying to ransack the United States Capitol,
indicative of an incipient fascism, laying the cultural and political groundwork for a violent, extra-parliamentary mass movement.

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  #94 (permalink)
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I agree with you. The Time said there was fraud. Everyone knew it but the federal justice allowed it by denying Trumps allegations. The democrats tha big techs and other elites did not care if the took over the democracy. They want the power and more power they have. I am really worrried because Trump was the only one who could put up the fight but justice failed the USE citizens. I could not believe a first work country could have third world election system. If the USA turns communist the globalist wins the world loses the only try democratic fighter. The world will never be the same and China will be the fist power in the world. The world will use their technology and will be dependent of them. The elites will be happy and Ethel rest are screwed.

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  #95 (permalink)
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FYI, to stay on topic, the question of this thread is whether political discussion should be permitted on the forum, not to begin it.

Please address this question, up or down.

We're trying to decide if it is appropriate for the forum to allow political discussion, or whether to follow our current policy of "no politics." It is helpful to find out everyone's views on this, and how to moderate it so it can be civil and worthwhile to the membership, if it can be....

Thanks.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
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