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Yet another mass shooting


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Yet another mass shooting

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  #1 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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We have a worldwide audience here, I'm curious what the rest of the world thinks about the craziness and normality of mass shootings in America.

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 SMCJB 
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"The reporting is routine," Obama said. "My response here at this podium ends up being routine, the conversation in the aftermath of it. We've become numb to this."

People care a lot more about their guns than they do the people dieing in these horrible massacres so you can be sure people will fight against any legislation to prevent this than they will for the legislation.

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 Pariah Carey 
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What good will more legislation do? The only people who abide by laws are...law abiding people. People who are bent on committing crime don't care about laws. High velocity lead is a much more effective deterrent to someone trying to kill you than any law.

Everyone talks about mass shootings but no one talks about the much more prevalent violent crime in America, which is inner city, black-on-black crime, usually the result of drug deals or gang affiliation.

In order to stop crazy people before they go on a rampage, what would be the standard and who decides it? Are we going to go back to involuntary commitment? More importantly though, how do you find them before it happens? Are people ready to erode not only gun rights but also privacy rights and due process? Lots of slippery slopes here.

Gun control is but a feel-good, Band-Aid solution to a much more complex issue.

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 tturner86 
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Laws are like locks on a door, only work on the honest man. Someone who wants to do wrong will do wrong. People speed on the highway all the time, new laws wont stop it. Meth is illegal but still sold across the country. A killer will get a weapon and kill someone.

I am all for background and even mental screening. There are people who don't need to buy a firearm. But the moment you give away your rights your life is over. At that moment take the mark and get in the back of the line. Tyranny is here.

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 TheWizard 
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More guns isn't the answer.

I was so disheartened to see a thread started here on who loves guns. What, prey tell does that have to do with trading? I guess if you had a bad day trading, you could threaten to shoot your broker....or your computer.

Such a sad, sad world.

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 tturner86 
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@Big Mike what is Ecuador's gun laws like?

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 artmaan 
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there was a chart recently posted at CNN, where you can see a steady increase in deaths caused by guns:

American deaths in terrorism vs. gun violence - CNN.com

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 sharmas 
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The society has a lot of soul searching to do

Guns are sold like candies
Drugs are new oxygen to our young generations
Politicians are more focused on helping their mates to make more profit and off course gun manufactures are part of this

Society that has lost its identity and values

And the worst thing is its only going to get worse as no one has the balls to draw the line in the sand and put a stop to all the known issues.

Oh wait...we have to be "PC" about it as everyone has the right to everything and the only people who don't have any rights are the victims and their families....

My heart breaks every time i see and hear about this senseless shootings and so many promising lives are taken away.

Sharmas

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TheWizard View Post
More guns isn't the answer.

I was so disheartened to see a thread started here on who loves guns. What, prey tell does that have to do with trading? I guess if you had a bad day trading, you could threaten to shoot your broker....or your computer.

Such a sad, sad world.

That was me. And dude it's the off-topic forum. "Anything not to do with trading" as it states below the link.

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tturner86 View Post
@Big Mike what is Ecuador's gun laws like?

Impossible to get a gun here

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 learning0101 
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tturner86 View Post
@Big Mike what is Ecuador's gun laws like?

Control de Armas

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learning0101 View Post

Just cause there is a permit, doesn't mean you can 'actually' get a permit.

P.S. I just pray that this conversation stays civil. Because this is a conversation that needs to happen, but too often degrades into name calling and BS online.

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 Inletcap 
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Guns don't kill people, people with guns do. With all the guns in circulation no laws will stop anyone from getting one. I could drive to a city and buy a gun illegally in a couple hours and go apeshit in a crowd. As a concealed weapons permit holder and daily carrier of a firearm I will tell you this~ You want me standing next to you when some lunatic goes off as I will likely be your only saving grace. If you do not feel that sense of responsibility to protect your own wellbeing and that of others around you, that is your call; but I will bet you would thank me for saving your life or a loved ones with my gun and have no problem with the fact I was sitting next to you "packing".

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 Seahn 
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Inletcap View Post
Guns don't kill people, people with guns do. With all the guns in circulation no laws will stop anyone from getting one. I could drive to a city and buy a gun illegally in a couple hours and go apeshit in a crowd. As a concealed weapons permit holder and daily carrier of a firearm I will tell you this~ You want me standing next to you when some lunatic goes off as I will likely be your only saving grace. If you do not feel that sense of responsibility to protect your own wellbeing and that of others around you, that is your call; but I will bet you would thank me for saving your life or a loved ones with my gun and have no problem with the fact I was sitting next to you "packing".

The wild west, I like it...... Surely if everyone carried a gun, gun violence would disappear.

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 tturner86 
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I personally believe that all people should shoot a fire arm at some point in their life.

I was raised on a farm with guns from a young age. I was taught early on the proper way to handle and respect them. At the age of 12 I had to shoot a coyote to keep it from attacking my dog and some animals.

A lot of gun deaths happen because of stupidity and mishandling of them. More happen because they are in the hands of people who don't need them. Children, criminals, crazies, etc.

I have learned that the most unbiased object in the world is a bullet. Its only objective is to leave the muzzle of a gun at the speed of sound and destroy everything in its path. It has no prejudice, no cause, and no concern.

I am not concerned about new laws because I am a law abiding citizen. I will follow whatever laws come to be. I also know that there are others out there who won't follow any laws. And those are the ones who scare me.

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 tturner86 
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Seahn View Post
The wild west, I like it...... Surely if everyone carried a gun, gun violence would disappear.

No, people will still do stupid shit.

I would rather have a gun and never need it, then not have one and wished I did.

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 Devil Man 
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I think it's terrible that it happened...just absolutely terrible, interestingly it was in another "gun free zone." Obviously doesn't work.

In almost every case of recent mass shootings the perp was certified mentally ill..there needs to be a way of preventing anyone in that condition from obtaining a firearm. Don't know how it could be done with our strict medical confidentiality laws, maybe the psychiatrist can somehow tie them into a database for gun background checks?

Other than that we need to enforce the laws that are on the books...the states with the strictest gun laws are the ones with the most gun violence. There is a pattern here.

Aside from that, maybe we should have at least one police officer in every school...children are the most vulnerable and they need to be safe. If Police is not an option, how about we hire our jobless vets who are combat seasoned and have that 6th sense to know when something just isn't right. We can easily justify the costs as their training would be minimal given their prior service and experience with firearms.

just my .02


Johnny

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Interesting tidbit- while I'm reading this the wind just blew my back door open. First thing I did....

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tturner86 View Post
I personally believe that all people should shoot a fire arm at some point in their life.

I was raised on a farm with guns from a young age. I was taught early on the proper way to handle and respect them. At the age of 12 I had to shoot a coyote to keep it from attacking my dog and some animals.

A lot of gun deaths happen because of stupidity and mishandling of them. More happen because they are in the hands of people who don't need them. Children, criminals, crazies, etc.

I have learned that the most unbiased object in the world is a bullet. Its only objective is to leave the muzzle of a gun at the speed of sound and destroy everything in its path. It has no prejudice, no cause, and no concern.

I am not concerned about new laws because I am a law abiding citizen. I will follow whatever laws come to be. I also know that there are others out there who won't follow any laws. And those are the ones who scare me.

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 bobwest 
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@Big Mike, I am an idiot to post in this thread, because the polarization of US politics makes the topic something that otherwise reasonable people have trouble finding any agreement about, and we do need to get to some agreement here.

At least something should be done to make it hard for people who have bad records to get their hands on guns. Even that has not been possible to do.

It is absolutely wrong that we simply shrug and say "We can't do anything about it," when people shoot kids. Neither politics, nor political philosophy, nor love of guns, nor love of freedom, should allow that kind of indifference. "Indifference" is the right word, when all avenues for agreement and action are blocked. The status quo is the only possible outcome, which equals indifference to the problem.

This is the only major country where this happens, and it happens literally all the time.

Sure, everyone has a right to own a gun, just as everyone has a right to own a car. But I had to get a license to drive, and so did everyone else. There are things that can be done that do not involve either not giving a shit, nor taking everyone's guns away.

Bob.

Edit: cut out a lot of drama, hoping that the point will come through better.

Man, I do like my drama, though.... A real weakness. There is a point, though, and I hope it is reasonably clear.

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 tturner86 
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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 bobwest 
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tturner86 View Post
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Yes.

Bob.

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 bobwest 
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I edited my previous post, to take out some personal pomposity.

I think that everyone here is of good will, and that this is ultimately true of the country as well. Therefore, no matter how things may look at any one time, I think that eventually a good resolution will be achieved.

But it really is a problem right now, and will be until then, whatever that resolution is.

Peace.

Bob.

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bobwest View Post
But it really is a problem right now

If so, what about the 99% of violent crime that isn't school shootings by deranged young males? I mean, nine people, yes that's awful, but that's a typical weekend in Chicago.

The mass shootings that get all the attention represent a tiny portion of all violent crime in this country, and your chances of being in one are infinitesimally small. In fact gun homicides in general, according to the Pew Center, have decreased nearly 50% since 1993, as of a few years ago. And most gun deaths (not homicides, just deaths) are by suicide.

In most violent crime, there is some kind of relationship between perpetrator and victim, or at least the circumstances of their meeting are not totally chance (like a drug deal). But it's only when about five or more innocent people are killed by a crazy stranger do people start wringing their hands and talking about solutions, and honestly I think a lot of it is just window dressing. Why do we assign so much importance to these random, unlikely events? And I do it too--it was the Virginia Tech shooting that motivated me to start carrying a gun and get training in how to shoot a pistol.

Don't get me wrong, these shootings are awful, but they are highly random and quite frankly not the biggest problem, not even close statistically, if you want to talk about reducing gun deaths in this country. For these reasons (and others), I'm skeptical when people want to use events like this to advance gun control laws.

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 SMCJB 
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Quoting 
I am all for background and even mental screening

Pointless if you continue to allow "private sales" exempt from all laws and checks.

Inletcap View Post
Guns don't kill people, people with guns do. With all the guns in circulation no laws will stop anyone from getting one. I could drive to a city and buy a gun illegally in a couple hours and go apeshit in a crowd. As a concealed weapons permit holder and daily carrier of a firearm I will tell you this~ You want me standing next to you when some lunatic goes off as I will likely be your only saving grace. If you do not feel that sense of responsibility to protect your own wellbeing and that of others around you, that is your call; but I will bet you would thank me for saving your life or a loved ones with my gun and have no problem with the fact I was sitting next to you "packing".

I know this is the rallying cry for everybody who carries guns to justify it but in reality this is a very rare occurrence. The news is NOT full of stories of people who are saved from a crazy by somebody with a CHL

I had an interesting conversation with somebody (maybe even here at BMT/gfutures.io but I can't find it) where a pro-gun advocate was making the argument about protecting his family. The truth is your family is more likely to get hurt/killed by a drunk driver or a texting driver than any situation where you havinig a gun could help them. If the pro-gun group, spent half as much effort on preventing dui/dwi/texting as they do protecting their gun rights the US would be a considerably safer place. But we all know that won't happen.


Devil Man View Post
Aside from that, maybe we should have at least one police officer in every school...children are the most vulnerable and they need to be safe. If Police is not an option, how about we hire our jobless vets who are combat seasoned and have that 6th sense to know when something just isn't right. We can easily justify the costs as their training would be minimal given their prior service and experience with firearms.

How do we pay for that? Your talking about hiring hundreds of thousands of people. Maybe a tax on guns, or ammo or CHLs?


bobwest View Post
At least something should be done to make it hard for people who have bad records to get their hands on guns. Even that has not been possible to do.

Because it's so easy to get a gun, even legally, without having to go through the checks.


bobwest View Post
It is absolutely wrong that we simply shrug and say "We can't do anything about it," when people shoot kids. Neither politics, nor political philosophy, nor love of guns, nor love of freedom, should allow that kind of indifference. "Indifference" is the right word, when all avenues for agreement and action are blocked. The status quo is the only possible outcome, which equals indifference to the problem.

This is the only major country where this happens, and it happens literally all the time.

I enjoy a good gun conversation. I was brought up in a country that doesn't have guns so I maybe not surprisingly I find the US's lack of gun policy amazing. Even more amazing is what @bobwest says's here. The US is one of the few places these senseless killings happen so regularly and its meet with indifference. People really seem more concerned about the gun laws than the deaths these senseless shootings bring. I'm not sure what the solution is, and maybe gun control isn't the solution, but surely something needs to be done to stop this.


Pariah Carey View Post
But it's only when about five or more innocent people are killed by a crazy stranger do people start wringing their hands and talking about solutions, and honestly I think a lot of it is just window dressing. Why do we assign so much importance to these random, unlikely events?

There are more people killed in these random unlikely events then there are by terrorism in the US.

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 GFIs1 
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tturner86 View Post
There are people who don't need to buy a firearm. But the moment you give away your rights your life is over. At that moment take the mark and get in the back of the line. Tyranny is here.

It is for sure viral in USA and some other countries...

Those who are a bit farther away may see it more pragmatic **:
There seems only one way to get rid of this armed disease.

Just give away as many weapons to people - without registering (as is today).
BUT
1) Take ALL ammunition out of the markets...
Even around the country.
2) Give people who need to shoot as a hobby the chance in some protected places where
ammunition is given, controlled and on exit every not shot piece has to be returned.

That works well - and will help people with gun passion to follow their hobby.
For sure it prevents from evil done by some drugged persons without thinking to shoot
innocent people.
Of course this takes ONE generation at least to step into new levels.
One could start today at least.

GFIs1
who believes the same could be done on army level as well...
Why should soldiers play Thief and Police in real life? There are well done games today...

**Things listed here work in Europe and especially Switzerland - where every soldier has his military weapon
at home - quite well...
But one could learn - yes?

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 tturner86 
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SMCJB View Post
There are more people killed in these random unlikely events then there are by terrorism in the US.

I am sorry but this stat that has been passed around and this quote is utter BS. These mass shootings are acts of terrorism. And until the are treated as such they will continue.

Living very close to Fort Hood I have seen the governments failure to classify this acts as terrorism. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/us/at-fort-hood-wrestling-with-label-of-terrorism.html

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 SMCJB 
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tturner86 View Post
I am sorry but this stat that has been passed around and this quote is utter BS. These mass shootings are acts of terrorism. And until the are treated as such they will continue.

Living very close to Fort Hood I have seen the governments failure to classify this acts as terrorism. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/us/at-fort-hood-wrestling-with-label-of-terrorism.html

ter·ror·ism
noun
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.


Not sure about Fort Hood but not sure anybody would classify the Oregon, Sandy Hook etc killings as politically motivated.

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 SMCJB 
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New York Times :- Oregon Killer Described as Man of Few Words, Except on Topic of Guns

Their headline not mine.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/us/chris-harper-mercer-umpqua-community-college-shooting.html

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 tturner86 
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SMCJB View Post
ter·ror·ism
noun
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.


Not sure about Fort Hood but not sure anybody would classify the Oregon, Sandy Hook etc killings as politically motivated.

Terrorism | Define Terrorism at Dictionary.com

noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

Especially doesn't imply only political motives.

I am sure we can agree that these acts are meant to terrorize?

Terrorize | Define Terrorize at Dictionary.com

verb (used with object), terrorized, terrorizing.
1. to fill or overcome with terror.
2. to dominate or coerce by intimidation.
3. to produce widespread fear by acts of violence, as bombings.

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 DeadCatBounced 
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I really think everyone should watch this all the way through.

Australia confiscated 650,000 guns. Murders and suicides plummeted. - Vox

I come from Canada, grew up on a farm. I was taught how to handle guns from an early age from my Grandpa and my Dad.

I have gone on multi week hunting trips up in northern BC. I like guns.

There is a number of things from a political standpoint that just don't make sense to me. But I think gun laws down here is close to the top.

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 SMCJB 
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DeadCatBounced View Post

I really think everyone should watch this all the way through.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so true.

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 Seahn 
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That last point in the comedy skit is exactly true and is the reason why I think people should have the right to have guns. Citizens with guns is the last line of defense against a political system which is inexorably moving toward becoming a Fascist state. Although with the weaponry the government has these days I am not sure how effective guns would be.

All the other nonsense about gun rights and constitutional right to have guns is hogwash. The dirty little secret that the NRA and gun supporters do not know or conveniently ignore is that the 2nd amendment was never intended to allow people to walk into restaurants with AK-47's on their shoulders. The 2nd amendment was written in the context of forming Militias for civil protection it was not meant to allow Joe Schmo to freely buy and use guns.

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 tturner86 
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Seahn View Post
That last point in the comedy skit is exactly true and is the reason why I think people should have the right to have guns. Citizens with guns is the last line of defense against a political system which is inexorably moving toward becoming a Fascist state. Although with the weaponry the government has these days I am not sure how effective guns would be.

All the other nonsense about gun rights and constitutional right to have guns is hogwash. The dirty little secret that the NRA and gun supporters do not know or conveniently ignore is that the 2nd amendment was never intended to allow people to walk into restaurants with AK-47's on their shoulders. The 2nd amendment was written in the context of forming Malishias for civil protection it was not meant to allow Joe schmo to freely buy and use guns.

In today's society a militia would never be allowed to form... You'd be in Gitmo or some other cia black prison before you could complete the thought.

I also don't believe you could ever actually disarm every single American home. It would be a bloodbath trying to go door to door and take everyone's guns.

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 SMCJB 
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Seahn View Post
All the other nonsense about gun rights and constitutional right to have guns is hogwash. The dirty little secret that the NRA and gun supporters do not know or conveniently ignore is that the 2nd amendment was never intended to allow people to walk into restaurants with AK-47's on their shoulders. The 2nd amendment was written in the context of forming Malishias for civil protection it was not meant to allow Joe schmo to freely buy and use guns.


tturner86 View Post
In today's society a militia would never be allowed to form... You'd be in Gitmo or some other cia black prison before you could complete the thought.

Agree on both points. Which is why I find everybodies defense of the 2nd amendment at any cost so surprising.

tturner86 View Post
I also don't believe you could ever actually disarm every single American home. It would be a bloodbath trying to go door to door and take everyone's guns.

I agree but that's not an excuse for us doing nothing.

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 tturner86 
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SMCJB View Post
Agree on both points. Which is why I find everybodies defense of the 2nd amendment at any cost so surprising.

I agree but that's not an excuse for us doing nothing.

Not at all. This all ends badly one way or the other.

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 ElChacal 
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It is interesting to see all these laws on fire hazards how wide stairs should be, how many access doors a building should have and on what direction the doors should open, etc. but on gun laws are just too loose. As a parent I do believe they should be more regulated.

I think you should be able to carry one to protect your home (against the government you really don't stand a chance) but not anybody should be able to carry one.

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 lancelottrader 
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Pariah Carey View Post
What good will more legislation do? The only people who abide by laws are...law abiding people. People who are bent on committing crime don't care about laws. High velocity lead is a much more effective deterrent to someone trying to kill you than any law.

Everyone talks about mass shootings but no one talks about the much more prevalent violent crime in America, which is inner city, black-on-black crime, usually the result of drug deals or gang affiliation.

In order to stop crazy people before they go on a rampage, what would be the standard and who decides it? Are we going to go back to involuntary commitment? More importantly though, how do you find them before it happens? Are people ready to erode not only gun rights but also privacy rights and due process? Lots of slippery slopes here.

Gun control is but a feel-good, Band-Aid solution to a much more complex issue.

Hard to argue with this. Let's be honest, the majority of all gun violence is in places with the strictest gun laws like Baltimore, Chicago... They could increase the legal penalties and jail times for these types who commit crimes with guns. But then, there would be those who would say laws like that would unfairly target minorities. Of course now that police have been demonized by false narratives, the shootings will only escalate. In Baltimore where cops have done less aggressive policing (for fear of being caught in some media driven debacle), the homicide rate has gone up tremendously.

Gun crimes are generally not being committed by concealed permit carriers (like myself) and law abiding gun owners. So until a way is found to keep the guns out of the hands of thugs, I don't think I should have to give up mine.

The mass shootings are usually done by deranged individuals..who also statistically are on meds like anti-depressants. Maybe guns should not be given to people on psyche meds since the mass shooting correlation exists.

So take away inner city shootings and psychos on meds..and there wouldn't be a huge "gun" problem.

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 Itchymoku 
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Why do people think being shot by a bullet is more horrific than being brutally stabbed by a knife or hit by a car?

A shoot, or any kind of violent death is sad, but lets get real folks texting while driving kills 6000 people a year alone. Wars like the Vietnam war were measured by body count so phones are more dangerous than guns. I don't see anyone trying to take anyone's phone away.

My English friend said that in England no one has guns but there's a huge problem with knives and brutal beatings with bats and brass knuckles. He said he'd rather get shot than brutally stabbed and beaten. It's almost like they'd rather the people have guns so there's a mutual fear like the cold war with less direct violence.

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 tturner86 
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Itchymoku View Post
Why do people think being shot by a bullet is more horrific than being brutally stabbed by a knife or hit by a car?

A shoot, or any kind of violent death is sad, but lets get real folks texting while driving kills 6000 people a year alone. Wars like the Vietnam war were measured by body count so phones are more dangerous than guns. I don't see anyone trying to take anyone's phone away.

My English friend said that in England no one has guns but there's a huge problem with knives and brutal beatings with bats and brass knuckles. He said he'd rather get shot than brutally stabbed and beaten. It's almost like they'd rather the people have guns so there's a mutual fear like the cold war with less direct violence.

A bullet is usually a cleaner wound then a knife. I can't imagine being stabbed to death, or shot. Or hit buy a car. Having survived a motorcycle wreck I can tell you blunt force trauma sucks.

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 Big Mike 
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Itchymoku View Post
Why do people think being shot by a bullet is more horrific than being brutally stabbed by a knife or hit by a car?

A shoot, or any kind of violent death is sad, but lets get real folks texting while driving kills 6000 people a year alone.

I believe the key here is "mass". It's faster to mass murder people with guns than anything else, and the victims are far more difficult to defend against it. It's easier to defend against a knife attack, or even a drunk driver.

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 Itchymoku 
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What these young guys who are committing these atrocities needed is attention. People don't understand how alienating social media is today on young kids, but they don't interact like the used to. I distinctly remember how different people treated one another before cellphones and it was amazing.

The answer to this whole problem of mass shootings is class size and maybe even the structure of the work environment for adults. Small classes force people to interact with one another and make it easier for teachers to spot problems in the students. When you have 50 kids to a teacher the teacher will have no idea if one of those kids is slipping into a state that causes something like a shooting to happen.


Ideally I think all classes should be this small


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 TheTradeSlinger 
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The US is in for a rough, rough time ahead with regards to violent crime.

Population changes:
U.S. Population Diversity Census Report
Whites Projected to Become a US Minority | Al Jazeera America

Crime Statistics:
en.metapedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime
» Black Crime Facts That The White Liberal Media Daren?t Talk About Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

As the groups that commit most of the violent crime per capita become the majority in this country, their numbers growing and growing as the groups that commit the least number of violent crimes per capita shrink in number, what does the future hold beside an ever increasing rate of violent crimes?

It's not a gun issue, it's a people issue.

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 Neo1 
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It seems like you Yanks are too obsessed with guns and blowing stuff up. Everyone seems to take this great sense of pride in owing/ handling a firearm.

It probably looks like that to me because in NZ cops don't even carry guns, same with most of the cops in the UK. Both have low gun related mortality rates. It's easy to get a gun in NZ though, and hunting is pretty popular aswell.

I remember reading a study that concluded the biggest correlation with Gun related homicides was the unemployment rate( and Meth) , and that It had little to do with gun laws.

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NYTimes :- Oregon Killer’s Mother Wrote of Troubled Son and Gun Rights

In a series of online postings over a decade, Ms. Harper, a registered nurse, said she kept numerous firearms in her home and expressed pride in her knowledge about them, as well as in her son’s expertise on the subject.

...

In an online forum, answering a question about state gun laws several years ago, Ms. Harper took a jab at “lame states” that impose limits on keeping loaded firearms in the home, and noted that she had AR-15 and AK-47 semiautomatic rifles, along with a Glock handgun. She also indicated that her son, who lived with her, was well versed in guns, citing him as her source of information on gun laws, saying he “has much knowledge in this field.”

“I keep two full mags in my Glock case. And the ARs & AKs all have loaded mags,” Ms. Harper wrote. “No one will be ‘dropping’ by my house uninvited without acknowledgement.”

Law enforcement officials have said they recovered 14 firearms and spare ammunition magazines that were purchased legally either by Mr. Harper-Mercer, 26, or an unnamed relative. Mr. Harper-Mercer had six guns with him when he entered a classroom building on Thursday and started firing on a writing class in which he was enrolled

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 Itchymoku 
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 tturner86 
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/06/zero-correlation-between-state-homicide-rate-and-state-gun-laws/?tid=sm_fb

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 cory 
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Itchymoku View Post

ban??? nobody says anything about banning, the right word is 'control'. But this is very typical, it designs to stir up pro gun crowd into a frenzy as usual.

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 Itchymoku 
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cory View Post
ban??? nobody says anything about banning, the right word is 'control'. But this is very typical, it designs to stir up pro gun crowd into a frenzy as usual.

It is what it is. America is OBSESSED with guns and they're paranoid, paranoid of their own government. It's always been this way. I have a lot of friends who own weapons and anytime I bring up the government coming for their guns it's like there's a chemical change in their brain. Something deep in their core is set off like scraping nails on a chalk board. Most of them say "let them come and take my guns and there will be a shoot out" lol. In all honesty I think they're partly just blowing off steam, but this is a ubiquitous response among all people I know who have a gun. Some of these people were perceived as educated, sound individuals (at least before they commit the act). Many people who commit these crimes are educated and sound individuals.

I think the shootings are going to keep happening and America is just going to drift into a state of complacency. The only thing that's going to happen is it'll be harder to get a gun. Maybe some people will point the finger at lack of mental health services and absolutely no one will really face the real problem these young people face of social dissonance. America is an experiment of lets give every child a smartphone and hope they'll make more friends when the exact opposite is true for most.

It's crazy how people just completely brush off all the other problems that contribute to mass shootings and only focus on guns or getting a automatic weapon. America just haphazardly force feeds kids adhd or anti depressant medications, puts artificial crap in their food, hands them a smart phone, and tells them if they don't lose their virginity at a young age they're worthless. Most of these shooters commit these crimes simply because they don't have a girlfriend, or friends for that matter, if you read the manifestos.



tl:dr: It's not about the guns, it's a sociological issue. No one decides to shoot up a school simply because they have a gun.

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 GFIs1 
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The school shootings in US are really the smaller crime - but everyone is upset and the president
needs to have several special speeches - longing for less weapons and pushing new regulations.
I don't want to get political here.
Obviously the same US gun crime with many deaths is done by "the pro"! US troops dispersed over
1000 military bases around the world shoot every day innocent people. Without any reason.
Using the latest technique and looks like a video game. And filming the massacres right live and
cruel.
(hmmm.. just for the sake of their hobby?) irony off.
Nobody in USA is upset about it - because:
it happens so far away.

Think of it
GFIs1

thanks @Itchymoku for the precise view

and yeah - Americans don't have a neutral view on weapons

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 Itchymoku 
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Northern Arizona University shooting: One killed, 3 hurt - CNN.com


And I'm sure some people are sitting there reading this saying it doesn't matter how many people die from shootings, they shouldn't have to give up their guns.

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 Itchymoku 
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Itchymoku View Post
Northern Arizona University shooting: One killed, 3 hurt - CNN.com


And I'm sure some people are sitting there reading this saying it doesn't matter how many people die from shootings, they shouldn't have to give up their guns.



[O]n May 4, 1970—members of the Ohio National Guard fired on unarmed student protesters at Kent State, killing four and seriously injuring nine others. The horrific massacre is regarded as a historic moment of public unrest during the Vietnam War.



Just one of the reasons Americans are paranoid of their own Government...

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 SMCJB 
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"between state-level gun death rates and state gun laws" of course your allowed to take guns between states. Be a lot more interesting if he did the analysis on international rates instead. Be an interesting analysis for some data scientists's you'd need to get some decent data though.

Itchymoku View Post


cory View Post
ban??? nobody says anything about banning, the right word is 'control'. But this is very typical, it designs to stir up pro gun crowd into a frenzy as usual.

Maybe I missed something here, but my reaction to the tweet was that the people who DO want to Ban the first three things are exactly the same people who DON'T want to ban the 4th/guns.


Itchymoku View Post
It is what it is. America is OBSESSED with guns and they're paranoid, paranoid of their own government. It's always been this way. I have a lot of friends who own weapons and anytime I bring up the government coming for their guns it's like there's a chemical change in their brain. Something deep in their core is set off like scraping nails on a chalk board. Most of them say "let them come and take my guns and there will be a shoot out" lol. In all honesty I think they're partly just blowing off steam, but this is a ubiquitous response among all people I know who have a gun. Some of these people were perceived as educated, sound individuals (at least before they commit the act). Many people who commit these crimes are educated and sound individuals.

This is exactly my experience as well. Mention gun control and people suddenly start acting as if you your raping their wife and children. It's a real shame that the same people can't show half the passion about issues that effect the country (and world).

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 Itchymoku 
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https://www.yahoo.com/politics/donald-trump-sometimes-i-carry-a-gun-185346708.html

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 tturner86 
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Crazy ... It must stop someday

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 srgtroy 
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Malcolm Gladwell is amazing. A great article on the school shootings phenomenon. I guarantee you, whether you agree or disagree, you will find it original:

How School Shootings Spread - The New Yorker

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Malcolm Gladwell is amazing. A great article on the school shootings phenomenon. I guarantee you, whether you agree or disagree, you will find it original:

How School Shootings Spread - The New Yorker

New York Times OpEd :- The Myth of the ‘Autistic Shooter’
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/12/opinion/the-myth-of-the-autistic-shooter.html

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 cory 
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Malcolm Gladwell is amazing. A great article on the school shootings phenomenon. I guarantee you, whether you agree or disagree, you will find it original:

How School Shootings Spread - The New Yorker

too much know-how available online. gone was the day order the anarchy cookbook and wait for it by slow mail.

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 Itchymoku 
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Texas teen arrested for homemade clock to move to Qatar

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 tturner86 
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He played the system and won...



What they also don't talk about is how the clock needed to be plugged in. So for it to go off in class and disrupt the class he had to plug it in. He knew exactly what he was doing.

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 Itchymoku 
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Tennessee State University: 1 dead 2 injured cnn.com

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 Itchymoku 
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He played the system and won...



What they also don't talk about is how the clock needed to be plugged in. So for it to go off in class and disrupt the class he had to plug it in. He knew exactly what he was doing.

idk, something seems a bit off with the clock boy. For being such a smart kid, it definitely seems like he's playing dumb.

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idk, something seems a bit off with the clock boy.

From the article you posted before:


Quoting 
the teenager has been traveling the world. Ahmed earlier this week told The Associated Press that he had visited Google and Facebook, along with other companies and institutions. He also visited with the president of Sudan, Omar al-Bashir, which has prompted some criticism because al-Bashir is wanted by International Criminal Court on charges of genocide and war crimes for atrocities linked to the Darfur fighting. Ahmed's father is a Sudanese immigrant to the U.S. and a former presidential candidate in Sudan who ran opposing al-Bashir.

The kid's father is using his son as a tool to promote his political career, nothing else. He knows how to draw the attention of the media so this little incident turned big really fast.

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3 dead after car hits crowd at Oklahoma State parade - CNN.com


Driving while driving is completely dangerous and out of control, We must ban cars immediately!

and the game goes on, unbelievable.

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3 dead after car hits crowd at Oklahoma State parade - CNN.com

Driving while driving is completely dangerous and out of control, We must ban cars immediately!

and the game goes on, unbelievable.

"Adacia Avery Chambers, 25, is suspected of driving while intoxicated when she rammed her gray Hyundai Elantra into a crowd watching Saturday's parade in Stillwater, killing three adults and a toddler, police said."

As I've said here before you are more likely to die to a drunken or texting driver than you are to somebody that you could defend yourself against with a gun. If people were half as worried about DUI (and texting and driving) as they were about their guns the US would be a lot safer place for everybody.

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 Seahn 
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Driving while driving is completely dangerous and out of control, We must ban cars immediately!

and the game goes on, unbelievable.

Reductio ad Absurdum.... People can be killed by an infinite number of things and ways but guns are specifically designed to kill.

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"Adacia Avery Chambers, 25, is suspected of driving while intoxicated when she rammed her gray Hyundai Elantra into a crowd watching Saturday's parade in Stillwater, killing three adults and a toddler, police said."

As I've said here before you are more likely to die to a drunken or texting driver than you are to somebody that you could defend yourself against with a gun. If people were half as worried about DUI (and texting and driving) as they were about their guns the US would be a lot safer place for everybody.

I think now the authorities are suspecting it was a mental illness thing, not so much drunk driving.

I don't buy it that someone could do something like that unintentionally drunk. Yeah people get into accidents drunk because of slow reflexes, but no one slams on the accelerator and completely demolishes a crowd.

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 Itchymoku 
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 SMCJB 
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The Concealed-Carry Fantasy
New York Times Op Ed
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/opinion/the-concealed-carry-fantasy.html

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 Itchymoku 
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I think now the authorities are suspecting it was a mental illness thing, not so much drunk driving.

I don't buy it that someone could do something like that unintentionally drunk. Yeah people get into accidents drunk because of slow reflexes, but no one slams on the accelerator and completely demolishes a crowd.

Oklahoma woman who plowed into homecoming crowd was not drunk: court papers

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 Big Mike 
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I think we've missed a few mass shootings in this thread. The Planned Parenthood one, and then the one today in San Bernardino.

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 TheTradeSlinger 
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Big Mike View Post
I think we've missed a few mass shootings in this thread. The Planned Parenthood one, and then the one today in San Bernardino.

Mike

Here's one the news wouldn't cover.

17 injured, 11 of which are under 21 years old.

Suspect held in New Orleans playground shooting spree

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 SMCJB 
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Does the Colorado Planned Parenthood attack count as a terrorist attack by a radical/extremist christian?

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 tturner86 
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Does the Colorado Planned Parenthood attack count as a terrorist attack by a radical/extremist christian?

Yes. As a right wing Christian even I believe that is terrorism. I still personally believe that inflicting mass harm is an act of terror.

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 Big Mike 
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Twitter saying the San Bernardino shooters are wearing full body armor and gas masks? I have no TV, anyone else hearing this?

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Twitter saying the San Bernardino shooters are wearing full body armor and gas masks? I have no TV, anyone else hearing this?

Mike

KABC News Live Streaming Video | abc7.com

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NYTimes :- Black Friday Gun Sales Soared, F.B.I. Data Shows
Gun bargains were apparently a big draw on Black Friday. As news of a deadly standoff in Colorado Springs overshadowed America’s unofficial shopping holiday, the F.B.I. was busy processing about two firearm background checks per second. The agency ran a record 185,345 background checks on Friday...

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/03/us/black-friday-gun-sales-soared-fbi-data-shows.html

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If what I'm hearing is true, this has snackbar written all over it. We'll see. But if I was a betting man...I'd say yeah.

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 SMCJB 
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NYTimes :- How Often Do Mass Shootings Occur? On Average, Every Day, Records Show

NYTimes :- On Guns, We’re Not Even Trying
in the last four years, more people have died in the United States from guns (including suicides and accidents) than Americans have died in the wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq combined
...
one person dies in America every 16 minutes from a gun,

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 tturner86 
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https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/us/san-bernardino-shooting.html?_r=0

I am waiting for them to call this Workplace violence...

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tturner86 View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/us/san-bernardino-shooting.html?_r=0

I am waiting for them to call this Workplace violence...

Of course they will..anything that will diminish the Islamic extremist narrative. The mainstream media will do it's usual deflecting . It gets very predictable after a while. Thankfully, there are an increasing amount of people that are starting to wake up.

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 lancelottrader 
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When you take away inner city gang members, Muslim fanatics..and the occasional deranged (and almost always on Psyche meds) mass shooter, there isn't all that much gun violence. Unfortunately these groups aren't going away anytime soon.

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tturner86 View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/us/san-bernardino-shooting.html?_r=0

I am waiting for them to call this Workplace violence...

Dude...of course that's what it is. The president himself suggested so this morning. And trust me, our president knows the difference between a little workplace violence and homegrown, Muslim-inspired terrorism (not that that ever happens). If there are people of a certain religious background living among us, committed to murdering Americans and seeing the destruction of this country, ole Barry would have told us by now.

I mean how could this not be simple workplace violence? Don't all disgruntled employees who want to kill people show up with their Pakistani émigré spouse to help, having just completed a trip to Mecca and having known contacts with Islamic extremists? That is, like, so right out of the workplace violence playbook. I just can't think of what else you could call it.

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 tturner86 
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Dude...of course that's what it is. The president himself suggested so this morning. And trust me, our president knows the difference between a little workplace violence and homegrown, Muslim-inspired terrorism (not that that ever happens). If there are people of a certain religious background living among us, committed to murdering Americans and seeing the destruction of this country, ole Barry would have told us by now.

I mean how could this not be simple workplace violence? Don't all disgruntled employees who want to kill people show up with their Pakistani émigré spouse to help, having just completed a trip to Mecca and having known contacts with Islamic extremists? That is, like, so right out of the workplace violence playbook. I just can't think of what else you could call it.

None of that matters. The thing to this one is you can't premeditate an argument. There was no way he gathered all the guns, bullets, and bombs in 30 mins to go back and shoot someone over a fight. He had this stuff stock piled up. Which means he planned to do something at some point...

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The guns were bought legally, passed all background checks.

I simply cannot comprehend those who think current gun laws are acceptable. These people need to examine the facts of the world, and the facts are that deaths by gun violence in America are many times higher of other first world countries.

And the legislators that offer their prayers and yet turn around and vote against more strict gun laws can stick it up their ass, prayers are not enough. Anytime someone that has examined the facts tries to pass tougher gun control laws, all these Congressmen always vote no.

Stop placing all the emphasis on the person that pulled the trigger. Of course they are responsible, but people of all backgrounds exist all over this world, there is no way to account for America having more gun violence than other countries by any means other than our archaic laws that allow guns to be purchased so easily.

Lobbying Spending Database - National Rifle Assn, 2015 | OpenSecrets

More people have been murdered in Chicago since 2001 than the total US military killed in Afghanistan and Iraq wars. The pro-gun guys say Chicago has tough laws. Well guess what, Chicago also had roads that lead to places other than Chicago where guns can be purchased. Use your brain, don't just listen to the nonsense being fed to you by FOX.

The USA needs comprehensive gun reform. The current cycle just continues to escalate. Break the cycle. More violence is not the solution.

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 tturner86 
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I disagree with you @Big Mike on the individual. But the only way to stop gun violence is going to be in restricting ammunition. You will never take away all the guns. Won't and can't physically happen. You could stop new sales, but even then you are talking some 300+ million fire arms out there.



These three bullets set on my desk everyday. They are a constant reminder. I feel them, touch them, press them into my skin. Remind myself that this bullet is the most non-biased item in the world. This bullet may be fired by gunpowered but it is fueled by the intention of the man pulling the trigger.

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 SMCJB 
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You could stop new sales, but even then you are talking some 300+ million fire arms out there.

That is true. But closing the 'gun show' loophole and forcing every private sale to be registered would be a step in the right direction.

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That is true. But closing the 'gun show' loophole and forcing every private sale to be registered would be a step in the right direction.

An obvious step, that no one could possibly oppose - except corrupt Congressmen.

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@tturner86 and a texan is telling you this. LOL @SMCJB

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 Big Mike 
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tturner86 View Post
But the only way to stop gun violence is going to be in restricting ammunition

I imagine you can 3D print bullets today, and increasingly so in the coming decade.

Obviously, the long term solution is a far bigger and more complex issue. An issue of education, an issue of mental health and healthcare, and an issue in how so called "news" stations aren't actually reporting news, but instead are just opinion pieces designed to boost ratings. Facts don't matter to those "news" organizations. And a large part of the population takes them at their word.

You could blame the pharmacy companies for lobbying the doctors, who ultimately over prescribe their patients, creating all kinds of new mental health issues that didn't exist previously.

You could blame the educational system, who is more focused on teaching how to pass an exam than embracing creativity or encouraging students to learn by truly challenging and stimulating them -- instead of restraining them in an effort to provide a "one school fits all" approach.

You could blame a justice system that has sold its soul to the devil in order to receive municipal funds, and in turn created quotas to meet so that the for-profit corporations can continue making billions, who are disincentivized to rehabilitate because to do so would jeopardize their profits.

You have a growing population that are living below the poverty line, while corporate profits are at all time highs. You have growing disparity between the average wages earned and the average profits earned by companies. You have a public that is near its breaking point, because it's been sold out to corporations.

Ultimately, the blame lies with the people who have allowed their country to deteriorate to the condition it is in today by voting in the people in office over the last 20-40 years who have passed the laws to allow the corporations to turn the democracy into an oligarchy.

You cannot simply say it's because someone is muslim or because someone has a mental health issue. Doing so completely skips over all the inconvenient truths of the situation, which is far more complex.

Anyway, it's clear how I feel on this issue. And I also know I am in the minority. I left the States, after all, so everyone can just ignore me and I'll go shut up now.

Mike

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 TheTradeSlinger 
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Big Mike View Post
More people have been murdered in Chicago since 2001 than the total US military killed in Afghanistan and Iraq wars. The pro-gun guys say Chicago has tough laws. Well guess what, Chicago also had roads that lead to places other than Chicago where guns can be purchased.

2015 Stats | Chicago Murder, Crime & Mayhem | HeyJackass!

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 GFIs1 
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..was wildwest in USA: armed people shooting in every smaller village.
At least in films made in Hollywood.

Today every western tv channel is sending detailed coverage of shootings.
And people praying. And politicians visiting the place - with flowers...

Such shootings are normality in many other places in the world every day as well.

USA is having troops in 147 countries around the world! And is shooting in many
many wars they started themselves. Result: Many dead, wounded and even
more refugees.
The term "war" is no longer active. Only the word is changing but has the same
meaning. Today it is named "terrorism".

All that hype has one background: Marketing for the weapon industry. From small
revolver to biggest weapon systems.
Without those every year growing military budgets this special "industry" could not
"grow".

Thus all that marketing in all tv channels. And assuring that all americans need a mass
of weapons at home, in the car - if possible in the airline: to protect themselves...

Smells very schizophrenic: to tell people weapons are needed to get freedom and stability!
And then going to church every sunday to pray.

A last sentence to the extent on the battlefields around the world where US troops are
bombing every day: WHERE are all those refugees going then after they have to leave
there destroyed cities?
Answer: For sure NOT to the USA

The laws in USA concerning military budgets or restricting guns for private use will not
change. At least not with the next five presidents...

GFIs1

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 GFIs1 
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How perverted is this?
A new home shopping tv channel will start 2016 to sell guns in USA...

Article from the Guardian
Gun TV: home shopping channel aims to sell weapons to viewers | US news | The Guardian

Look at this:
"Gun control advocates are skeptical. Laura Cutilletta, senior staff attorney at the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a thinktank based in San Francisco, said: “The thing that’s wrong with this is that it’s a very serious decision when you bring a gun into your home."
Are you sure? If you own already some dozens of them... LOL

This is just the american way of thinking: nobody can help.

"Yes - we can!"

Needs for sure generations to take that misprogramming out.

GFIs1

extension: If you think further - for sure you can order within a year a drone
to shoot your bad neighbor. Just type in the form the desired address and
keep your credit card handy...

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 Malthus 
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The USA definitely has a problem with homicides and specifically mass shootings, but I don't think banning guns would solve anything (and could even create more insecurity).

For countries like Spain, where we've never been allowed to have guns it could make sense to prohibit gun possession, since even criminals will have a hard time finding them. But for the USA, where the are 10 guns / person on average it would only impulse black market and insecurity (since criminals don't care about the law and they will certainly carry guns). See this graph:



For those asking for more gun control. Yes, some kind of gun control is necessary but I suppose it's already in place (like don't give guns to mentally ill people). From what I've read in the news, the majority of mass shootings perpetrators were what you could call "normal" people with no criminal background. They would pass those controls easily and it would not solve anything (other than feeling like something has been done after the shootings).

The only solution I can think of is unfortunately a long term solution: education, plans to reduce criminality in certain areas, etc...

Here is the murder rate per 100,000 inhabitants in 2012 for those interested (I couldn't find 2014/2015 data):



Murders are higher in the USA but only slightly (5 people every 100,000 inhabitants instead of 2), so maybe the problem is more the alarm these mass shootings create instead of just plain numbers.

Anyway I don't live there so I could have a wrong picture of the situation.

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 GFIs1 
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Malthus View Post
Murders are higher in the USA but only slightly (5 people every 100,000 inhabitants instead of 2), so maybe the problem is more the alarm these mass shootings create instead of just plain numbers.

Thanks @Malthus for the charts.
In fact - the people killed WITHIN the USA are quite interesting. But to know the real number of killed people by americans
outside of USA in the last 20 years. Adding both numbers together will bring the reality up...
For sure to know the number of dead - "killed by americans" per inhabitant comparing to other countries could
reveal much more.
Of course no US president is happy to see such numbers published.

GFIs1

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 GFIs1 
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are now admitted to the elite troops of US.
Like Navy Seals etc. according to the defense minister Ashton Carter.
These troops had never admitted women as soldiers.
Does this make future attacks "including" female soldiers more human?

GFIs1

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 SMCJB 
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NYTimes Breaking News Alert :- San Bernardino Gunwoman Pledged Allegiance to ISIS, Officials Say

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