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Yet another mass shooting


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Yet another mass shooting

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  #401 (permalink)
 Daytrader999 
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What about the latest one: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/23/colorado-shooting-joe-biden-will-address-boulder-massacre.html?utm_campaign=cityfalcon&utm_medium=cityfalcon&utm_source=cityfalcon

I really can't even remember about such tragedies in Europe for at least the last couple of months....

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 forrestang 
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MiniP View Post
The reason it isn't in the news is because it unfortunately happens every weekend and no one is surprised anymore.

I agree with you, its crazy that this isn't national news and they aren't marching in the streets.

I grew up on the south side of chiraq and have had a gun pulled on me twice as a boy. I knew several murderers as a child(all gang related), but didn't really understand what that meant at the time.

In my youth, I had one close friend of mine murdered by a stray bullet in his home(this gentleman was not affiliated), my sister's baby-daddy had his skull evacuated in a gang related incident, and had several acquaintances that were murdered(some due to gang violence, some not).

NONE of these incidents made news that I know of?

Anybody who understands the news culture in the states, can tell you WHICH stories will make the news(and WHY), and which will not. If some 8 year old gets merc'd while walking home from school or sitting in their house... it's probably 50/50 whether anybody will talk about it, in the news or otherwise. This event will happen many times throughout the course of a year in Chicago, but the mention of it will likely be as an aggregate of statistics later on at the years end.

But let some random mad-man shoot up a shopping mall... news outlets will contact the police inquiring about the race of the person or any potential political affiliations, it will be all over the news, tourists from overseas will all spring fourth with solutions to the problem, politicians will politicize everything about it before the bodies are cold.

Interesting how incidents that represent the smallest number of people are those that get talked about the most, while the largest groups affected are mostly ignored and will just be a footnote in a report somewhere.

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 LastDino 
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This is just speculation on my end but there is culture of "segregation" of population based on localities. Localities here can be ranging from downtown to nations, but there is definitely trend of this happening. And all media outlets do this.

Its bit sad that often more than the event (crime in this case) more attention is paid to "profile" and "roots" of the victim and perpetrator.

I've grown up in the backwater area of the third world country and I fear that if I were to encounter someone who only gets info from news and has no real life experiences will come down to conclusion that I'm a probable criminal based on my profile. Media outlet might even turn my story into a documentary in such a case

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  #404 (permalink)
 matthew28 
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SMCJB View Post
Couple of weeks? It's two in six days! As in most cases, both white males as well.

Just doing a basic search of a couple of US news sites brings him up as being Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa, born in Syria, moved to the US as a child, and appears to be of the Muslim faith. Hardly a typical white male gunman.

To me he just sounds like a person with mental health issues who shouldn't have had a gun. I don't think his skin colour killed anybody.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2021/3/23/22346470/police-identify-21-year-old-shooter-colorado-supermarket
https://www.denverpost.com/2021/03/23/boulder-shooting-suspect-ahmad-al-aliwi-alissa/
https://www.thedailybeast.com/boulder-colorado-cops-identify-king-soopers-supermarket-massacre-suspect-as-ahmad-alissa

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 forrestang 
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matthew28 View Post
...I don't think his skin colour killed anybody.

Is it just me... or has anyone else noticed this concerted effort on the part of the media, various social advocacies and many politicians to CONSTANTLY divide us on race?

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  #406 (permalink)
 xplorer 
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forrestang View Post
Is it just me... or has anyone else noticed this concerted effort on the part of the media, various social advocacies and many politicians to CONSTANTLY divide us on race?

I think the media is simply trying to get more people to click on their articles (clickbaiting).

Since race is a subject that runs deeply with (apparently) a lot of folks, that's part of what the media uses to try and grab people's attention.


Apparently since Trump left office CNN's ratings halved. What does that tell us.

https://www.businessinsider.com/cnn-ratings-have-crashed-since-donald-trump-left-the-white-house-2021-3?IR=T

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  #407 (permalink)
 SMCJB 
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@matthew28 I stand corrected. I'd only seen the pictures of him being taken from the store, as time passes more details become available.

forrestang View Post
Is it just me... or has anyone else noticed this concerted effort on the part of the media, various social advocacies and many politicians to CONSTANTLY divide us on race?

... and the police, corporations, religions, and almost every aspect of American society, not only dividing us on race but upon religion, politics and even science and medicine as well. All then amplified by social media.

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  #408 (permalink)
 WoodyFox 
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forrestang View Post
Is it just me... or has anyone else noticed this concerted effort on the part of the media, various social advocacies and many politicians to CONSTANTLY divide us on race?

Like this from the niece of our wonderful VP...




Capture

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  #409 (permalink)
 SMCJB 
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And it degenerates into right vs left name calling and politics

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 WoodyFox 
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SMCJB View Post
And it degenerates into right vs left name calling and politics

Don't worry @SMCJB...I honestly do not like any off them. But wouldn't you agree? Your aunt is VP, why would you say such a thing.

Now the media is running with it...Especially Fox News.

Shame!

P.S. Just keep it out of the daily funny pic section. LOL

No hard feelings, I will remove it if you would like.

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  #411 (permalink)
 brach 
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I watched some of the chatter on Twitter in utter amazement today. How can people be so deluded, so polarized, as to think that any of these "innuendos" make sense?
  • If the shooter was white, that's somehow a "win" for progressives and a "loss" for conservatives
  • If the shooter's name sounded Arabic, that's somehow a "win" for conservatives and a "loss" for progressives
  • If the victims weren't white, that's somehow a "win" for progressives and a "loss" for conservatives
  • If the shooter had any sort of mental issue, that's a "win" for conservatives and a "loss" for progressives
  • If Chicago had a bad weekend, that's a "win" for conservatives and a "loss" for progressives
  • <Progressive or Conservative> public figure X's relative Y said something stupid. Mark the dub for the good team

Totally ridiculous and meaningless statements. A steamy pile of false choices and irrational observations.

We all lose every time there's a mass shooting. Our gun laws, red flag laws, mental health practices, etc. are all far from perfect. The discussion about solutions should reflect that fact.

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 matthew28 
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forrestang View Post
Is it just me... or has anyone else noticed this concerted effort on the part of the media, various social advocacies and many politicians to CONSTANTLY divide us on race?

Yes, but I live in the UK and things are a lot less pronounced here. As a white male I can whole heartedly agree with BLM (to pick a current obvious example), if it means that everybody should be treated equally, irrelevant of their skin colour, and have the same rights, freedoms and opportunities in life, but instead people now seem to be more intent on categorising themselves and everybody else primarily based on their skin colour.
As others have said regarding politics also, differences between people are being accentuated and constantly focused on and measured against rather than celebrated or bringing people together.

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  #413 (permalink)
 martinhunting 
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American culture is a gun culture. There is an obsession with the right to own, to carry, and to use guns of all types. Every day, people in the United States use their guns to kill other people. It is only rarely that people use their guns to kill criminals in the act of committing a crime: most frequently people use their guns to kill wives, children, and co-workers. It seems like every day there is a mass shooting in which someone uses a gun to kill or wound multiple people.

A recent New York Times article, ““The motivations of men who commit mass shootings are often muddled, complex or unknown. But one common thread that connects many of them—other than access to powerful firearms—is a history of hating women, assaulting wives, girlfriends and female family members, or sharing misogynistic views online.”

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  #414 (permalink)
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I wish guns were not needed. However guns are the only firm line of defense against Government tyranny.

Regarding this shooting, I guess no one in the grocery store had concealed carry...what if two or three brave people (customers or staff) had concealed carry? It would still be a horrible story but with likely a somewhat different ending.

As a rational person, I see a fit for some reasonable gun control. However there are those in Govt power that want to use reasonable change for complete elimination of gun rights. They do not want any opposition to executing unlimited control and power over other people. Of course, they want to take that action "for our own good" and because they are "smarter" than us.

Again, I wish guns were not needed but as long as deeply evil people consider their actions to be good there must be some way to stop tyranny.

I understand many people disagree with this thinking and I respect your position.

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 dk27 
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When it comes to mass shootings US is far behind Europe if anyone wonders.

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-despite-gun-control-advocates-claims-u-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/

https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/

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 martinhunting 
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In the US, three women used to be killed by an intimate partner each day. The figure is now up—closer to four women a day. At the same time, the number of men who are murdered by an intimate partner has declined.

The means to kill is gun-related and the “why” invites us to recognize how violence against women is closely connected to the growing sentiment of hate promoted by white supremacists.
According to the National Resource Center on Domestic Violence (NRCDV), intimate partner homicides make up approximately 10% of all US murders and of those, women comprise approximately 70% of those killed. In other words, one out of every 10 people murdered is by an intimate partner, and seven of those ten murdered are women. Research tells us that women are far more likely to be killed by an intimate acquaintance or spouse than by a stranger.
Every year, 115,551 people are shot. Among those:7,957 children and teens are shot

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  #417 (permalink)
 Dasani 
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martinhunting View Post
In the US, three women used to be killed by an intimate partner each day. The figure is now up—closer to four women a day. At the same time, the number of men who are murdered by an intimate partner has declined.

The means to kill is gun-related and the “why” invites us to recognize how violence against women is closely connected to the growing sentiment of hate promoted by white supremacists.
According to the National Resource Center on Domestic Violence (NRCDV), intimate partner homicides make up approximately 10% of all US murders and of those, women comprise approximately 70% of those killed. In other words, one out of every 10 people murdered is by an intimate partner, and seven of those ten murdered are women. Research tells us that women are far more likely to be killed by an intimate acquaintance or spouse than by a stranger.
Every year, 115,551 people are shot. Among those:7,957 children and teens are shot

So women are shot only by white supremacists? What is the breakdown of the different races that are shot and killed by an intimate partner?

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  #418 (permalink)
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I understand your point and concern with violence against Women. Not sure how white supremacists enter into the point. Certainly, I am not defending white supremacists. I suspect that violence against women extends across races, politics, etc. By the way, have you listened to various rap lyrics? Not so female friendly. Unfortunately violence against women is in most Nations and cultures.

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 martinhunting 
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the findings are from a report by the Anti-Defamation League titled, “When Women are the Enemy: The Intersection of Misogyny and White Supremacy” found that the hatred of women is frequently an accession into the white supremacist world. The report identified that the cultural changes and attention to gender equality in progressive politics emboldened some men to choose to follow the far-right, white supremacist movements that hold women to strong traditional gender roles. (Salon, H. D. Parton, August 2019).

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 martinhunting 
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Dasani View Post
So women are shot only by white supremacists? What is the breakdown of the different races that are shot and killed by an intimate partner?

You may have missed my point which was Firearms and domestic violence are a lethal combination -injuring and killing women,children, and bystanders everyday in the United States. In one study of25 high-income countries, the United States represented just 32% of the female population but accounted for 84%of all female firearm homicides. A gun is the weapon most commonly used in domestic homicides. In fact, more than six times as many women are murdered by guns used by their current or former intimate partners than are killed by male strangers.

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  #421 (permalink)
 Dasani 
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martinhunting View Post
You may have missed my point which was Firearms and domestic violence are a lethal combination -injuring and killing women,children, and bystanders everyday in the United States. In one study of25 high-income countries, the United States represented just 32% of the female population but accounted for 84%of all female firearm homicides. A gun is the weapon most commonly used in domestic homicides. In fact, more than six times as many women are murdered by guns used by their current or former intimate partners than are killed by male strangers.


So from what you say, having an intimate partner is quite dangerous. What percentage of these murders are committed by using guns in the USA? Earlier you mentioned White Supremacy. Do you have any facts with other races?

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  #422 (permalink)
 Dasani 
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martinhunting View Post
You may have missed my point which was Firearms and domestic violence are a lethal combination -injuring and killing women,children, and bystanders everyday in the United States. In one study of25 high-income countries, the United States represented just 32% of the female population but accounted for 84%of all female firearm homicides. A gun is the weapon most commonly used in domestic homicides. In fact, more than six times as many women are murdered by guns used by their current or former intimate partners than are killed by male strangers.

Okay, I found the article you speak of.

https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/when-women-are-the-enemy-the-intersection-of-misogyny-and-white-supremacy

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 dk27 
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Causes of injury-related deaths

Based on CDC data, 70.3% (173,040) of injury deaths were unintentional, 19.3% (47,511) were due to suicide, 7.8% (19,141) were homicides, 2.3% (5,683) were of undetermined intent, and 0.3% (652) were due to “legal intervention.”

Looking at homicides, 75.3% (14,414) were committed with a firearm. Other causes include 8.9% (1,702) caused by cutting or piercing, and 2.4% (455) caused by suffocation.

Firearm deaths by gender and age

Males are vastly more likely to be murdered with a firearm than females, with a death rate per 100,000 of 7.65 for males and 1.44 for females across all age ranges. This disproportionality becomes even greater when we adjust for age. In the 15-19 age range, males have a death rate per 100,000 of 14.31 while females have a death rate per 100,000 of 2.10. The death rate for males per 100,000 spikes in the 20-24 age range at 20.53 compared to 2.96 for females. Between the ages of 25-29, the rate is 18.51 for males and 2.50 for females. Between the ages of 30-34, the rate is 15.21 for males and 2.36 for females.

The vast majority of deaths from firearms for males occur between the ages of 15 and 34, with a total of 7,759 deaths. That’s over 53% of all firearm deaths across the entire population.

Firearm deaths by race

Black people are far more likely to be killed with a firearm than people of any other race. Across the entire population, black people have a death rate per 100,000 of 17.83 when it comes to firearm deaths. White people have a rate of 2.22, Native Americans have a rate of 4.07, and Asians have a rate of 1.08.

In terms of raw count, 8,607 black people were killed with firearms in 2019, which accounts for almost 60% of all firearm deaths that year. 5,367 white people were killed, which made up over 37% of firearm deaths.

The disproportional impact of gun violence on the black community becomes even more apparent when we group by sex. 7,685 black males were killed with firearms in 2019, which is over 53% of all firearm deaths. In other words, black males make up the majority of victims of gun violence.

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 SMCJB 
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More Guns = More Gun Deaths

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 WoodyFox 
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SMCJB View Post


More Guns = More Gun Deaths

Sorry Bad Facts, But I wouldn't expect anything different from the VOX.

They conveniently left out over a dozen countries with way lower guns per capita.



Still Bad, but this is a little closer to the truth. We have the highest gun ownership of any of these countries.

List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


full facts here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


Never ever use VOX for any factual material, I would only use independent sources. JMHO

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 WoodyFox 
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Here is NPR take:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/08/05/743579605/how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries-in-deaths-from-gun-violence

and Politifact

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/aug/02/beto-orourke/are-there-more-gun-deaths-united-states-any-other-/

They actually quote the VOX, I'm not sure if this is your article or not ? @SMCJB

If it is, they just left out lower income countries, so they could support their argument.

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 brach 
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WoodyFox View Post
Sorry Bad Facts, But I wouldn't expect anything different from the VOX.
[/url]

Never ever use VOX for any factual material, I would only use independent sources. JMHO

You can use any source for material, as long as you put it through some gray matter.

BTW, you mis-identified the source, as it wasn't VOX. The chart comes from this article (see chart 6): https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/boulder-colorado-mass-shooting-gun-violence-statistics-charts.

The original sources are gunpolicy.org and the UN.

These sources apparently used a filter based on level of country development. You presented "independent sourcing" with a "cherry pick" filter. I'd say VOX's chart is vastly more reasonable.

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 WoodyFox 
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brach View Post
You can use any source for material, as long as you put it through some gray matter.

BTW, you mis-identified the source, as it wasn't VOX. The chart comes from this article (see chart 6): https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/boulder-colorado-mass-shooting-gun-violence-statistics-charts.

The original sources are gunpolicy.org and the UN.

These sources apparently used a filter based on level of country development. You presented "independent sourcing" with a "cherry pick" filter. I'd say VOX's chart is vastly more reasonable.

Sorry, I didn't know the source was a quote of a quote, the chart said VOX.

How is VOX's chart more reasonable? They left out 19 countries with way higher gun rate deaths per capita. That is "cherry picking".


So...if the US goes bankrupt over night, we can be removed from the chart???

JMHO

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 WoodyFox 
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Its not the guns...Its behavior and mental health.


Another 20 years and guns will be antiques. Then the argument will be, "if we could just ban those lightsaber's".


Dam guns...if only we would control their behavior some how?



Capture

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 brach 
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WoodyFox View Post
Sorry, I didn't know the source was a quote of a quote, the chart said VOX.

How is VOX's chart more reasonable? They left out 19 countries with way higher gun rate deaths per capita. That is "cherry picking".


So...if the US goes bankrupt over night, we can be removed from the chart???

JMHO

If you wish to demonstrate a meaningful numerical relationship, it's Math 101 buddy. Control for other factors.

Any reasonable person can see that factors other than "incidence of gun ownership" are probably dominant in Honduras, Venezuela and Swaziland.

You are absolutely, 100%, cherry picking.

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If you wish to demonstrate a meaningful numerical relationship, it's Math 101 buddy. Control for other factors.

Any reasonable person can see that factors other than "incidence of gun ownership" are probably dominant in Honduras, Venezuela and Swaziland.

You are absolutely, 100%, cherry picking.



And why would you leave out these countries? You use the the words "other than / other factors", could you explain.

Cherry picking is taking things out. You are dong this...I am including all.

Thanks,

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 dk27 
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According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the disproportional nature of gun possession during criminal offenses follows the earlier patterns based on age, sex, and race.

21.8% of male prisoners in state institutions, and 20.9% of male prisoners in federal institutions, possessed a firearm during their offense, compared to just 9.5% in state institutions and 6.6% in federal institutions for female offenders.

Regarding these firearms, 10.1% were purchased or traded at a retail source (such as a gun store or pawn shop). Just 0.8% were purchased at a gun show. 25.3% were obtained from an individual. 43.2% were obtained from street or underground markets, and 6.4% were obtained through theft. 6.9% were found at the location of the crime.

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And why would you leave out these countries?

I already explained that.


Quoting 
You use the the words "other than / other factors", could you explain.

Sure. When there exist factors that better explain the "Y axis" than the one that is on your chart, those are the "other factors."


Quoting 
Cherry picking is taking things out. You are dong this...I am including all.

Cherry picking is including what you like, and excluding what you don't like. You can look at it either way. "Including all" and treating them all the same way is almost always a bad idea; a common ploy of charlatans. And, oh by the way, you didn't "include all."

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I already explained that.



Sure. When there exist factors that better explain the "Y axis" than the one that is on your chart, those are the "other factors."



Cherry picking is including what you like, and excluding what you don't like. You can look at it either way. "Including all" and treating them all the same way is almost always a bad idea; a common ploy of charlatans. And, oh by the way, you didn't "include all."

Yes, Including all or treating them all...different things.

So since I am a charlatan and you are not.

What are the other factors you mention?... but do not disclose for removing 19 countries from the stats.

Is this just to make higher gun ownership and gun deaths per capita more pronounced?

You said other reasons to better explain the Y axis, what are they.

Thanks,

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Believe this lists all 52 states, so no allegations of 'cherry picking'.

More Guns = More Gun Deaths?



And no I don't think comparing the US to some of the most war torn, drug cartel controlled and unstable countries in the world is like for like. Even if you do include them the US becomes one of the worst in the world rather than the worst in the world. How proud we should be!

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Believe this lists all 52 states, so no allegations of 'cherry picking'.

More Guns = More Gun Deaths?



And no I don't think comparing the US to some of the most war torn, drug cartel controlled and unstable countries in the world is like for like. Even if you do include them the US becomes one of the worst in the world rather than the worst in the world. How proud we should be!

@SMCJB I do not disagree that more guns equals more likely hood... I just didn't think leaving out 19 countries gets to the root of the real problem.

Being mental health and behavior issues. (and no we should not be proud of this)

It still takes a human to pull a trigger and they only have 2 trigger fingers, not 120 per capita.

Higher crime rates countries (like the US) will of course be higher. This is behavioral.

This is exactly why I keep asking @brach the other reasons he mentions for excluding the 19 countries. I was trying to build my case.

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Just gonna leave this here.



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The US is a world leader. Largest economy in the world, one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world, largest and most advanced military in the world, biggest open democracy, the list goes on and on. Why then when it comes to gun deaths, and mental health, do we compare ourselves to places like Venezuela, El Salvador & Honduras etc and not Australia, France, Germany, Japan & the UK. I agree it's not right that we focus on mass shootings and ignore the body count that builds up in Chicago weekend after weekend. I agree Mental Health plays a huge factor. I agree the media, and social media makes it all worse and not better. These are not valid excuses though, they just deflect from the situation that people are dieing and at a rate higher than most counties in the developed world. If the death rate of people driving cars was 10x greater than that our of pier countries, I assume somebody would ask why is that, and hopefully do something about it. Why then when it comes to gun deaths (or mental health if that is the route cause) do we do nothing but generate excuses or reasons why not to do anything?

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SMCJB View Post
The US is a world leader. Largest economy in the world, one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world, largest and most advanced military in the world, biggest open democracy, the list goes on and on. Why then when it comes to gun deaths, and mental health, do we compare ourselves to places like Venezuela, El Salvador & Honduras etc and not Australia, France, Germany, Japan & the UK. I agree it's not right that we focus on mass shootings and ignore the body count that builds up in Chicago weekend after weekend. I agree Mental Health plays a huge factor. I agree the media, and social media makes it all worse and not better. These are not valid excuses though, they just deflect from the situation that people are dieing and at a rate higher than most counties in the developed world. If the death rate of people driving cars was 10x greater than that our of pier countries, I assume somebody would ask why is that, and hopefully do something about it. Why then when it comes to gun deaths (or mental health if that is the route cause) do we do nothing but generate excuses or reasons why not to do anything?

It's simple, the US is here to make money everything else comes second. You can debate this until we are red in the face and call it freedom or what ever else you want to but this country is all about money. Hell we left England over money and came over here because of the money/opportunities.

Its the same reason we don't have free health care, money money money.

Not that its not a big issue because it is but everyone in congress only cares about these shootings when they effect the right people, and the politicians can use these deaths as a way of connecting with there base. Its horrible that one persons death isn't a big deal but when it happens to someone else its a huge deal.. this country is so ass backwards we don't know what the hell is going on.

Keep your guns close and make that money so you can get the hell away from all this shit..... my eyes are set on a nice little island

-P

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The US is a world leader. Largest economy in the world, one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world, largest and most advanced military in the world, biggest open democracy, the list goes on and on. Why then when it comes to gun deaths, and mental health, do we compare ourselves to places like Venezuela, El Salvador & Honduras etc and not Australia, France, Germany, Japan & the UK. I agree it's not right that we focus on mass shootings and ignore the body count that builds up in Chicago weekend after weekend. I agree Mental Health plays a huge factor. I agree the media, and social media makes it all worse and not better. These are not valid excuses though, they just deflect from the situation that people are dieing and at a rate higher than most counties in the developed world. If the death rate of people driving cars was 10x greater than that our of pier countries, I assume somebody would ask why is that, and hopefully do something about it. Why then when it comes to gun deaths (or mental health if that is the route cause) do we do nothing but generate excuses or reasons why not to do anything?

Couldn't agree more.

Our communities need a lifting up and we need more access to good mental health care. There is absolutely no reason for our failures, considering our potential.

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 brach 
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Couldn't agree more.

Our communities need a lifting up and we need more access to good mental health care. There is absolutely no reason for our failures, considering our potential.

Yes. There is plenty of opportunity to improve our mental healthcare in addition to common sense gun control reform that respects the 2nd Amendment.

As for the "other factors" that might be prevalent, they vary by country. I'll leave it as an exercise to you to figure out which factors might better explain the high gun deaths in, say, Swaziland, than ownership prevalence. I know you can do it!

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SMCJB View Post
The US is a world leader. Largest economy in the world, one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world, largest and most advanced military in the world, biggest open democracy, the list goes on and on. Why then when it comes to gun deaths, and mental health, do we compare ourselves to places like Venezuela, El Salvador & Honduras etc and not Australia, France, Germany, Japan & the UK. I agree it's not right that we focus on mass shootings and ignore the body count that builds up in Chicago weekend after weekend. I agree Mental Health plays a huge factor. I agree the media, and social media makes it all worse and not better. These are not valid excuses though, they just deflect from the situation that people are dieing and at a rate higher than most counties in the developed world. If the death rate of people driving cars was 10x greater than that our of pier countries, I assume somebody would ask why is that, and hopefully do something about it. Why then when it comes to gun deaths (or mental health if that is the route cause) do we do nothing but generate excuses or reasons why not to do anything?


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 LastDino 
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But I've a more serious problem with this "mental health" area. Its not that the argument is not right but how do we pre-define who is at the tipping point? There is big gap between having violent thoughts or even having violent behavior and actually acting on them to that extent, much more so with the guns.

I'm not saying its not the biggest cause, its just it would be hard to find a sane person in modern society.

Again, I must bring back my background in third world country, I mean have you ever seen one of these?



----during covid times no less

I kid you not, I've traveled quite a lot using public transport, and it would be hard to find a day where I didn't want to beat someone up.

I mean frustration, momentary anger, or even just sheer humidity can prompt some deadly thoughts in just about any average person. Its just that not everyone actually gets tested enough

--I'm just thinking loud here, I've no idea about situation in US or any other country tbh, this is just something that comes to mind. I feel solution is not going to be one or two fold.

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 WoodyFox 
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But I've a more serious problem with this "mental health" area. Its not that the argument is not right but how do we per-define who is at the tipping point? There is big gap between having violent thoughts or even having violent behavior and actually acting on them to that extent, much more so with the guns.

I'm not saying its not the biggest cause, its just it would be hard to find a sane person in modern society.

Again, I must bring back my background in third world country, I mean have you ever seen one of these?



----during covid times no less

I kid you not, I've traveled quite a lot using public transport, and it would be hard to find a day where I didn't want to beat someone up.

I mean frustration, momentary anger, or even just sheer humidity can prompt some deadly thoughts in just about any average person. Its just that not everyone actually gets tested enough

--I'm just thinking loud here, I've no idea about situation in US or any other country tbh, this is just something that comes to mind. I feel solution is not going to be one or two fold.


I get some of your points...But when over 60% of gun deaths are suicide, that is when mental health plays a big part.

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But I've a more serious problem with this "mental health" area. Its not that the argument is not right but how do we per-define who is at the tipping point? There is big gap between having violent thoughts or even having violent behavior and actually acting on them to that extent, much more so with the guns.

I'm not saying its not the biggest cause, its just it would be hard to find a sane person in modern society.

Again, I must bring back my background in third world country, I mean have you ever seen one of these?



----during covid times no less

I kid you not, I've traveled quite a lot using public transport, and it would be hard to find a day where I didn't want to beat someone up.

I mean frustration, momentary anger, or even just sheer humidity can prompt some deadly thoughts in just about any average person. Its just that not everyone actually gets tested enough

--I'm just thinking loud here, I've no idea about situation in US or any other country tbh, this is just something that comes to mind. I feel solution is not going to be one or two fold.

This also makes me think of the Mark Barton shootings when he went on a killing spree in two different trading firms.

He had lost 100 grand within a month on bad trading.

Just couldn't handle the pressure and guilt of losing, so took it upon himself to shoot and kill people? I will never understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_O._Barton

Edit...Just reread it myself and didn't know the part of his ex-wife and mother-in-law?

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 Dasani 
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I get some of your points...But when over 60% of gun deaths are suicide, that is when mental health plays a big part.


Over 60% of gun deaths are suicides? Is this in the USA or the whole world? Do you have a link?

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Over 60% of gun deaths are suicides? Is this in the USA or the whole world? Do you have a link?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

First 2 sentences.

24532/38390 = .63

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 martinhunting 
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Annual Gun Violence Impacting People of All Ages in the U.S.
Every year, 115,551 people are shot. Among those:
• 38,826 people die from gun violence
• 14,062 are murdered
• 76,725 people survive gunshot injuries
• 34,566 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
• 23,437 die from gun suicide
• 3,554 survive an attempted gun suicide
• 483 killed unintentionally
• 521 are killed by legal intervention
• 1,376 are shot by legal intervention and survive
• 324 die but the intent was unknown
• 4,471 are shot and survive but the intent is unknown
• 547 women are killed by their husband or male dating partner**
Every year, 7,957 children and teens are shot in the United States. Among those:
• 1,663 children and teens die from gun violence
• 864 are murdered
• 6,294 children and teens survive gunshot injuries
• 2,788 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
• 662 die from gun suicide
• 166 survive an attempted gun suicide
• 10 are killed by legal intervention
• 101 are shot by legal intervention and survive
• 89 are killed unintentionally
• 2,893 are shot unintentionally and survive
• 38 die but the intent was unknown
• 380 are and survive shot but the intent is unknown

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 MiniP 
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martinhunting View Post
Annual Gun Violence Impacting People of All Ages in the U.S.
Every year, 115,551 people are shot. Among those:
• 38,826 people die from gun violence
• 14,062 are murdered
• 76,725 people survive gunshot injuries
• 34,566 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
• 23,437 die from gun suicide
• 3,554 survive an attempted gun suicide
• 483 killed unintentionally
• 521 are killed by legal intervention
• 1,376 are shot by legal intervention and survive
• 324 die but the intent was unknown
• 4,471 are shot and survive but the intent is unknown
• 547 women are killed by their husband or male dating partner**
Every year, 7,957 children and teens are shot in the United States. Among those:
• 1,663 children and teens die from gun violence
• 864 are murdered
• 6,294 children and teens survive gunshot injuries
• 2,788 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
• 662 die from gun suicide
• 166 survive an attempted gun suicide
• 10 are killed by legal intervention
• 101 are shot by legal intervention and survive
• 89 are killed unintentionally
• 2,893 are shot unintentionally and survive
• 38 die but the intent was unknown
• 380 are and survive shot but the intent is unknown

That is .00001% of the American population.

1 death is 1 to many but what about the other 72 million Americans that own guns and are law abiding citizens. Almost 30-40% of Americans own guns.

To put it in context there is an accepted mortality rate of 1% from the majority of the vaccines that are being pushed and no one bats and eye on that but when .00001% of the American population is effected the other 72 million should change?

Coming from someone who has been effected by one of those higher stats, I'm telling you from my own experience it wouldn't have changed anything... cause what was next to that gun was a hammer and it would of had the same outcome, but that's another story/convo.

FYI I'm not attacking you, just want to put those stats in context a bit, one person dying from anything either guns or knifes or cars is one to many. But at a certain point the people who don't do anything wrong need to stand up and not be put into a category because of a handful of dumb-asses.

-P

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Wow. I have never seen this figure before. This is some sad news.

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With nearly 38,000 lives lost and almost 85,000 more injured each year, the human cost of gun violence in America is staggering. Families, friends, and entire communities suffer the long-term and irreparable impacts of these tragedies—physically, emotionally, and financially.
examining the serious economic consequences of gun violence is paramount to understanding just how extensive and expensive this crisis is. The ecomic cost is around $280.Billion!
This $280 billion problem represents the lifetime costs associated with gun violence, Government costs for gun violence—paid for by taxpayers—fall into two broad categories: medical costs and police and criminal justice costs,

• American taxpayers pay a daily average of $34.8 million for medical care, first responders, ambulances, police, and criminal justice services related to gun violence.
• Families directly affected by gun violence everyday face $4.7 million in out-of-pocket costs for medical bills and mental health support, and $140.3 million in losses from work missed due to injury or death.
• Society loses an estimated $586.8 million per day in intangible costs from the pain and suffering of gun violence victims and their families.
• Employers every day lose $1.4 million in productivity, revenue, and costs required to recruit and train replacements for victims of gun violence.

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martinhunting View Post
Annual Gun Violence Impacting People of All Ages in the U.S.
Every year, 115,551 people are shot. Among those:
• 38,826 people die from gun violence
• 14,062 are murdered
• 76,725 people survive gunshot injuries
• 34,566 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
• 23,437 die from gun suicide
• 3,554 survive an attempted gun suicide
• 483 killed unintentionally
• 521 are killed by legal intervention
• 1,376 are shot by legal intervention and survive
• 324 die but the intent was unknown
• 4,471 are shot and survive but the intent is unknown
• 547 women are killed by their husband or male dating partner**
Every year, 7,957 children and teens are shot in the United States. Among those:
• 1,663 children and teens die from gun violence
• 864 are murdered
• 6,294 children and teens survive gunshot injuries
• 2,788 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
• 662 die from gun suicide
• 166 survive an attempted gun suicide
• 10 are killed by legal intervention
• 101 are shot by legal intervention and survive
• 89 are killed unintentionally
• 2,893 are shot unintentionally and survive
• 38 die but the intent was unknown
• 380 are and survive shot but the intent is unknown

Source?
thx - GFIs1

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  #455 (permalink)
 GFIs1 
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Statistics of gun owners - comparing with reason why one has a gun @ home

Hi @SMCJB

Your chart showed the "gun owners" with the weapon at home. I found my country in the extreme highs of this data line. Just this isn't comparable!
I live in a neutral and very democratic country. We can vote and elect 4 to 10 times per year as adults. Every male (+18 to 40) has to go to military service for min. 1 year (with education on military arms) or making a human service for 1,5 years.
The point is: Every soldier MUST take the army weapon plus ammunition with 24 bullets in a sealed box after every military education AT HOME and stores it there - weapon and ammunition separately. Then every year an official training with the weapon will be held in every village to repeat the learned stuff (mandatory). The reason why a soldier needs weapon and ammunition at home is based on WWI&II where the soldier had to have some protection getting on its way when they were called into military service in urgency.
Finally - those deadly "weapons" are not bought and hold by the civilians - but they are part of the military armament! Counting those in a statistic is a total distortion thereof.
Happily as we are - those military weapons in private surroundings are very rarely used for murder! This is because of the high punishes by misusing army material. Instead nearly every Swiss soldier has knowledge of handling a deadly weapon. With that - most of the Swiss people are NEVER buying a weapon privately - as one can use the army ones for training anyway. If you want to find a gun shop here - they are not easy to find :-)

Hope this helps to clarify some "grey zones".

Happy weekend
GFIs1

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 bobwest 
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MiniP View Post
FYI I'm not attacking you, just want to put those stats in context a bit, one person dying from anything either guns or knifes or cars is one to many. But at a certain point the people who don't do anything wrong need to stand up and not be put into a category because of a handful of dumb-asses.

This is a heavily emotional issue, and I'll just tiptoe in and then tiptoe out again. But here's my half cent:

There's nothing wrong with owning a gun. There's also nothing wrong with owning a car, and nothing wrong with drinking beer. But if you put driving and drinking together, you have a bad situation. So there are rules that aim to deal with this. We have to have them, and they don't infringe on anyone's freedom. They stop people from abusing their freedom by acting irresponsibly, to other people's detriment.

Having rules that make it hard to quickly get a gun, or hard to get one if you have a bad history (background checks) is exactly like that. If someone gets drunk and runs someone over with their car, that's something that should have been prevented, or at least made harder for them to do. If someone is unsuitable to own a firearm, and if that can be determined by something as simple as a background check, this should also be done.

This is not a case of absolutes. There are things that make sense and things that don't, and protection of the public when it can be done is important.

Tiptoeing out now....

Bob.

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 SMCJB 
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MiniP View Post
To put it in context there is an accepted mortality rate of 1% from the majority of the vaccines

I think your math is off! The death rate of Covid itself is less than 1%!


GFIs1 View Post
Statistics of gun owners - comparing with reason why one has a gun @ home

I was aware of the Swiss gun requirements you mention. My chart was just to show in the developed world there is a strong correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths. The chart for the states of the US shows the same thing. People can challenge the chart, saying that it doesn't include XYZ, but that doesn't change the facts that there is a strong correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths! That seems to be a fact that many people don't seem to acknowledge.


bobwest View Post
There's nothing wrong with owning a gun. There's also nothing wrong with owning a car, and nothing wrong with drinking beer. But if you put driving and drinking together, you have a bad situation. So there are rules that aim to deal with this. We have to have them, and they don't infringe on anyone's freedom. They stop people from abusing their freedom by acting irresponsibly, to other people's detriment.

Having rules that make it hard to quickly get a gun, or hard to get one if you have a bad history (background checks) is exactly like that. If someone gets drunk and runs someone over with their car, that's something that should have been prevented, or at least made harder for them to do. If someone is unsuitable to own a firearm, and if that can be determined by something as simple as a background check, this should also be done.

What I don't understand is that the anti- 'background checks and registering all gun sale' advocates believe this violates peoples freedom. At the same time Georgia just passed a law that makes it illegal to give somebody who is waiting in line to vote a bottle of water. Generally this is the same group of people. Which brings me to this meme....




Finally on the subject of mental health. (I know there are people following this thread who are now thinking "See the problem isn't guns it's actually mental health") I aaw this post on Twitter this am. (Admittedly didn't read it, just looking at the headline - also I know I know, NYT is a liberal rag). If Mental Health is such an issue with gun violence in the US, are we saying that the 41% of people who suffered depression in the US in the last year should have their guns taken away?



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 MiniP 
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SMCJB View Post
I think your math is off! The death rate of Covid itself is less than 1%!

I don't think you are comprehending what I am saying, I am saying the accepted death rate from the VACCINE is about 1% and we all except that but when something effects .00001% of the population everyone goes crazy.

-P

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 MiniP 
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bobwest View Post
This is a heavily emotional issue, and I'll just tiptoe in and then tiptoe out again. But here's my half cent:

There's nothing wrong with owning a gun. There's also nothing wrong with owning a car, and nothing wrong with drinking beer. But if you put driving and drinking together, you have a bad situation. So there are rules that aim to deal with this. We have to have them, and they don't infringe on anyone's freedom. They stop people from abusing their freedom by acting irresponsibly, to other people's detriment.

Having rules that make it hard to quickly get a gun, or hard to get one if you have a bad history (background checks) is exactly like that. If someone gets drunk and runs someone over with their car, that's something that should have been prevented, or at least made harder for them to do. If someone is unsuitable to own a firearm, and if that can be determined by something as simple as a background check, this should also be done.

This is not a case of absolutes. There are things that make sense and things that don't, and protection of the public when it can be done is important.

Tiptoeing out now....

Bob.

You make a great point and I think it something that needs to be looked into, the biggest issue is the law is an absolute and when we say mental health where to do stop and how severe does it have to be. Technically ADHD is a mental health disorder, does everyone with ADHD deserve to lose there guns?

Also how long does that statute of limitations last? I know people who have gone through extreme hardships and would defiantly have a form of PTSD and at one point in there life they would a HUGE wreck but are now showing no symptoms for years and are a contributing member of society, do they deserve to have there guns taken away?

Its a very slippery slope, there are always going to be innocent people who get hurt by these changes but how many is acceptable and once the ball gets rolling when does it stop? I really think that is one of the biggest concerns from gun owners, they know if you give these politicians an inch they are gonna take it an run.

I really think alot of it is how we have been raised for the past 20-30 years. I would be very curious to see how another country who has weapons similar to ours but follows a completely different lifestyle is with weapons.

Guns aren't going away, the gun is as American as baseball. We used them to over throw a government and win our freedom, Im surprised we dont have a musket on our flag. Before anyone chimes in about " oh back then they had muskets not semi auto assault weapons" well back in the day the musket was the assault weapon of the day.

Hell calling the modern ar an assault rifle is incorrect

-P

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 SMCJB 
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MiniP View Post
I don't think you are comprehending what I am saying, I am saying the accepted death rate from the VACCINE is about 1%

I (think) I understood you, and I'm saying I think your off be a factor of a 1000. Quick google search seems to show that CDC reported death rate on Covid Vaccines is .0018%. Also the massive anti-vax movement in the US, kind of says people aren't accepting of vaccine side effects or death rates.

As for your reply to @bobwest, are you arguing that accidently taking a gun away from somebody who should be allowed it is more worrisome than stopping gun deaths?

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 MiniP 
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SMCJB View Post
I (think) I understood you, and I'm saying I think your off be a factor of a 1000. Quick google search seems to show that CDC reported death rate on Covid Vaccines is .0018%. Also the massive anti-vax movement in the US, kind of says people aren't accepting of vaccine side effects or death rates.

As for your reply to @bobwest, are you arguing that accidently taking a gun away from somebody who should be allowed it is more worrisome than stopping gun deaths?

The first thing I saw on google was 1% death of some vaccines, maybe I am wrong.

Wait so your defending someone/a government who would take rights away from innocent people? Your kidding me right? So people who do nothing wrong should lose there rights because of a few people? Do you not understand how ass backwards and that is goes completely against everything this country is built on? So when a drunk driver goes and kills someone we should all lose our rights to drive because of one idiot? You seem like a smart person so maybe there is some confusion going on here on both of our parts but innocent people should not have to sacrifice ANYTHING because someone decides to do something illegal. Take responsibility for your own actions( not meaning you but you get it).

-P

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 Dasani 
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One more thought on gun suicide. Perhaps if guns were to disappear, wouldn't people who wanted to commit suicide just figure out how to do it some other way?

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 SMCJB 
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@MiniP your taking a point twisting it and coming up with an incorrect conclusion and then implying anybody who doesn't agree with you is unamerican. The reality is the test/example you gave could be applied to an innumerable number of things about american life and achieve the same conclusion. Civilized Society lives by a set of rules and laws that society has decided are in the best interest of society. Those laws restrict (ie cause you to sacrafice) your freedom for the better good of society. Many countries in the world have come to the conclusion that restricting access to guns is in the best interest of society.

When a drunk driver goes and kills someone we should all lose our rights to drive because of one idiot?. Yes thats exactly what happens. You lose your right to have a drink and drive. How is it a stretch to go from that (your own example) to When a mentally unstable person goes and kills someone with a gun should all lose our rights to own guns because of one person? and the conclusion that Yes you lose your right to be mentally unstable and own a gun?. It's the same sentence we just replaced drink with mentally unstable and drive with gun! Not everybody loses the right to drive. Not everybody loses the right to a gun. But everybody loses the right to drink and drive and everybody loses the right to be mentally unstable and own a gun. It's called civilization. It's not unamerican or anti-freedom to be civilized.

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 martinhunting 
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GFIs1 View Post
Statistics of gun owners - comparing with reason why one has a gun @ home

Hi @SMCJB

Your chart showed the "gun owners" with the weapon at home. I found my country in the extreme highs of this data line. Just this isn't comparable!
I live in a neutral and very democratic country. We can vote and elect 4 to 10 times per year as adults. Every male (+18 to 40) has to go to military service for min. 1 year (with education on military arms) or making a human service for 1,5 years.
The point is: Every soldier MUST take the army weapon plus ammunition with 24 bullets in a sealed box after every military education AT HOME and stores it there - weapon and ammunition separately. Then every year an official training with the weapon will be held in every village to repeat the learned stuff (mandatory). The reason why a soldier needs weapon and ammunition at home is based on WWI&II where the soldier had to have some protection getting on its way when they were called into military service in urgency.
Finally - those deadly "weapons" are not bought and hold by the civilians - but they are part of the military armament! Counting those in a statistic is a total distortion thereof.
Happily as we are - those military weapons in private surroundings are very rarely used for murder! This is because of the high punishes by misusing army material. Instead nearly every Swiss soldier has knowledge of handling a deadly weapon. With that - most of the Swiss people are NEVER buying a weapon privately - as one can use the army ones for training anyway. If you want to find a gun shop here - they are not easy to find


Hope this helps to clarify some "grey zones".

Happy weekend
GFIs1

here are the sources:
https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics
https://everytownresearch.org/report/gun-violence-in-america/

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 MiniP 
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SMCJB View Post
@MiniP your taking a point twisting it and coming up with an incorrect conclusion and then implying anybody who doesn't agree with you is unamerican. The reality is the test/example you gave could be applied to an innumerable number of things about american life and achieve the same conclusion. Civilized Society lives by a set of rules and laws that society has decided are in the best interest of society. Those laws restrict (ie cause you to sacrafice) your freedom for the better good of society. Many countries in the world have come to the conclusion that restricting access to guns is in the best interest of society.

When a drunk driver goes and kills someone we should all lose our rights to drive because of one idiot?. Yes thats exactly what happens. You lose your right to have a drink and drive. How is it a stretch to go from that (your own example) to When a mentally unstable person goes and kills someone with a gun should all lose our rights to own guns because of one person? and the conclusion that Yes you lose your right to be mentally unstable and own a gun?. It's the same sentence we just replaced drink with mentally unstable and drive with gun! Not everybody loses the right to drive. Not everybody loses the right to a gun. But everybody loses the right to drink and drive and everybody loses the right to be mentally unstable and own a gun. It's called civilization. It's not unamerican or anti-freedom to be civilized.

yeah your right, THAT person loses his right to drive/own guns because they need to deal with the consequence not innocent people who have done nothing wrong. I'm not twisting anything you are saying, that is simply how i perceive what you are saying. If you want someone to look at something differently then you should word it in a different way. I think I have admitted I could of been wrong and if I am wrong in this case as well then I would gladly eat my words because I think that is how people learn/grow.

Your coming from a good place and it sounds like your heart is in the right place, I however think your solution could use some work. Its a very difficult decision/topic but people who have done nothing wrong do not deserve to lose any of there rights. Just like you said we are a civilized society and there is no reason why people who obey the laws and act in a civilized way deserve to have there rights taken away.

The flip side of that is the innocent people who are killed/hurt by these situations do not deserve to be put in that place either and it in-turns becomes a very difficult situation.

The other side of this and its going to sound extremely cold and morbid is that we are a massive society and there are going to be horrible people in it that do horrible things but just because theirs a small amount of horrible people, does not mean the contributing members of a society should lose any of there rights.

Im not twisting anything and the fact that you are trying to say I am implying if we do something we are un-american is incorrect.

Also if you look at other nations that have gotten rid of guns/implemented gun restrictions, they still have gun crime!

"Offences involving knives or sharp instruments in England and Wales rose 6% to 46,265 in the year to March 2020, 51% higher than when comparable figures began in 2011, according to police data published on Friday by Britain's Office for National Statistics." https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-07-17/knife-crime-in-england-and-wales-highest-in-over-nine-years

You end up exchanging one type of crime for another, bad people are going to do bad things no matter what.

I agree with you, something needs to be done but it seems like the only things that are going to be done are going to affect millions of innocent people.

-P

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 artemiso 
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I am on @MiniP's side.

I am a responsible polygamist. I am trained and experienced in handling the opposite sex. I keep them safe at home and only take them out with me when I go hunting. Why should I be banned from having multiple partners? Why must the age of consent be 18 just because a bunch of you are exploitative pedophiles and sex offenders?

Look at Chicago, a city where they banned polygamy and the age of consent is too high. That place is a mess because of that. The CDC estimates that 42% of women in Chicago have experienced domestic violence at some point in their lives. Places with high age of consent still have infidelity and domestic violence against young women!

Polygamy is as American as football. Even Thomas Jefferson had two partners. The second sentence of the Declaration of Independence says that it's my right to pursue happiness and that the government is instituted to secure that right. The far left lobby is trying to take away our Declaration of Independence rights.

If you take away all the 16 year old girls from the good guys like me, then only the bad guys will be able to acquire 16 year old girls.

The US is different from the rest of the first world so an age of consent that works in their countries won't work here. I live in rural North Dakota, and my place doesn't have a single eligible bachelorette over the age of 16 within a 100 mile radius who wants to procreate with me.

If you let the government start regulating this right, they're going to start regulating other privatized rights like my healthcare, high-speed internet from Comcast, the personal information I can share with private companies like Experian and Facebook, spam calls, tax preparation software, Amtrak, the legroom I get on a domestic flight, the freedom to pee anywhere I please in the New York metro subway, and all these other great things about America that the government should stay out of.

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 artemiso 
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/s. In case people miss the sarcasm in my post.

Over time I've come to realize these template arguments from people who oppose any sensible form of gun control represent a bad faith attempt to engage on the issue. Because they have a simply invalid logical form, so you aren't even debating the evidence, but trying to beat the gamemaster in a virtual world of his own distorted logical rules.

If in doubt, just substitute "gun" for "pedophilia" and you can see that they may just as well be using the exact same arguments to justify pedophilia.

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 Daytrader999 
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Oh well....here's the next one:

https://nypost.com/2021/04/16/joe-biden-says-we-must-act-following-fedex-mass-shooting/?utm_campaign=cityfalcon&utm_medium=cityfalcon&utm_source=cityfalcon

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/act-biden-mass-shooting/story?id=77118883&utm_campaign=cityfalcon&utm_medium=cityfalcon&utm_source=cityfalcon

I wonder if these tragedies ever will come to an end....

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 WoodyFox 
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Daytrader999 View Post
Oh well....here's the next one:


I wonder if these tragedies ever will come to an end....

Unfortunately and probably never.

They have been happening for a long time and sadly are nothing new. Massacres plague all free societies. The flip side to not being free....the governments usually commit the massacres?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

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 bobwest 
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There is always a more acceptable position between unacceptable extremes.

For example, we don't have to accept either all lack of restraint in the use of firearms vs. total government control. Simple things like background checks to keep guns out of the hands of some unsuitable owners is not a major imposition on gun owners, and will reduce the number of purchases by those who shouldn't have them.

It is not freedom vs. tyranny. It is rationality vs. different forms of irrationality.

I have to pass a drivers test to be able to drive a car, because if I don't, the rest of the public is at risk from my unsuitability as a driver. There are a lot of rules like this, that limit my ability to do things that are dangerous to others. If I can pass a reasonable standard, I can be allowed to drive a car. If I can pass a reasonable standard for gun ownership I can be allowed to buy a gun. I don't know what the right conditions would be, but I know that there are some, because there are some that are obviously not.

Not all tragedies will be stopped, but some will.

When simple solutions may exist, they should be tried. It's kind of simple.

Bob.

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 Daytrader999 
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bobwest View Post
There is always a more acceptable position between unacceptable extremes.

For example, we don't have to accept either all lack of restraint in the use of firearms vs. total government control. Simple things like background checks to keep guns out of the hands of some unsuitable owners is not a major imposition on gun owners, and will reduce the number of purchases by those who shouldn't have them.

I subscribe to that, but IMHO there is a serious problem as long as there is such a huge amount of illegal firearms available for nearly everyone who wants to buy a weapon apart from any legal restrictions....so there might almost always be a way to avoid any legal background checks.

"If you don't design your own life plan, chances are you'll fall into someone else's plan. And guess what they have planned for you? Not much." - Jim Rohn
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 brach 
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I'm in favor of common sense gun regulations, just like most Americans. But as long as we are going to retain the "wild west" approach in this area, maybe we should relax a little when it comes to regulating things like retail forex, CFD's, online poker, etc. As it stands now, the best operators in these areas won't touch the US with a 10 foot pole.

If some 18 yo kid who plays COD 8 hours a day can legally obtain an arsenal that would make a small army blush, then maybe a 51 yo with an MBA can safely trade CFD's.

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