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Yet another mass shooting


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Yet another mass shooting

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  #301 (permalink)
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MiniP View Post
The real kicker is now some states are allowing the people affected by these tragedies to sue and tack legal action against the gun manufactures like they are trying to kill or hurt people on purpose BUT no one wants to sue honda because some drunk hit 130 on the highway and killed a van filled with people.

Should point out guns (especially assault weapons) are actually designed to kill people, Honda's are designed to be transportation vehicles.

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SMCJB View Post
Should point out guns (especially assault weapons) are actually designed to kill people, Honda's are designed to be transportation vehicles.

the weapons used are not assault weapons but rather the sporting version of such weapons. Assault weapon are two words commonly used to described anything that looks scary. Assault weapons are select fire weapons used to "assault" an enemy. The public cant easily obtain these weapons with out the proper paper work and not to mention they are thousands and thousands of dollars. The weapons that all these mass shootings have used are the sporting version. Assault is a verb there for the firearm it self can not assault anyone, YOU must do the assaulting, secondly the majority of deaths come from pistols/revolvers that when these bills/laws are put in place they don't address. So it goes back to my previous post if someone wants to do harm they will, in this case the future harm will most likely be done with a pistol. So some say limit the mag size for pistols... whats stopping someone from carrying 4 pistols they make holsters like this..... there will always be a way around the laws to hurt people if someone really wants to.

If my honda was strictly for transporting people why does it have a sport/race mode? Am i racing to my destination... that would be breaking the law.

It really all comes down to we enjoy having these things and we should be able to have them who are "you" to tell me what i can and can't have because some psycho did something horrible. You want 1000 hp street car go ahead, you want 40 ar-15's go ahead AS long as you legally can and aren't breaking the law.

-P

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  #303 (permalink)
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I was just making the point that in NZ they have a single mass shooting (first in 22 years) and within 6 days they bring in legislation to try and prevent further mass shootings. That is stark contrast to the US where mass shootings happen regularly and nobody does anything other than send prayers. Maybe your right that banning semi-automatic weapons wouldn't make any difference, but if that is the case, shouldn't we be doing something else instead not just nothing?* Unfortunately you are right there a lot of bad or unstable people out there, and if they are motivated they will find a way to hurt people, and in that situation anything can be a weapon.

I find it interesting that when you look at the vaccine debate, anti-vaxers are portrayed as enemies of society, endangering the greater good, and there's a very strong call to take their rights of choice away and force them to do something they don't want to. (It is legal in the majority of the US to choose not to have your child vaccinated). In the gun debate on the other hand, the opposite applies. As you said yourself "who are "you" to tell me what i can and can't have". (Even though I didn't say anything like that.)


*Maybe of interest, John Arnold, a Billionaire who made his fortune trading Natural Gas as founder of Centaurus, is currently funding research into gun violence. But that's a private philanthropic activity, not anything our elected officials are doing. https://www.forbes.com/sites/elizabethmacbride/2018/08/31/hedge-fund-billionaire-takes-on-the-strangely-thorny-issue-of-gun-data/

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  #304 (permalink)
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SMCJB View Post
I was just making the point that in NZ they have a single mass shooting (first in 22 years) and within 6 days they bring in legislation to try and prevent further mass shootings. That is stark contrast to the US where mass shootings happen regularly and nobody does anything other than send prayers. Maybe your right that banning semi-automatic weapons wouldn't make any difference, but if that is the case, shouldn't we be doing something else instead not just nothing?* Unfortunately you are right there a lot of bad or unstable people out there, and if they are motivated they will find a way to hurt people, and in that situation anything can be a weapon.



I find it interesting that when you look at the vaccine debate, anti-vaxers are portrayed as enemies of society, endangering the greater good, and there's a very strong call to take their rights of choice away and force them to do something they don't want to. (It is legal in the majority of the US to choose not to have your child vaccinated). In the gun debate on the other hand, the opposite applies. As you said yourself "who are "you" to tell me what i can and can't have". (Even though I didn't say anything like that.)





*Maybe of interest, John Arnold, a Billionaire who made his fortune trading Natural Gas as founder of Centaurus, is currently funding research into gun violence. But that's a private philanthropic activity, not anything our elected officials are doing. https://www.forbes.com/sites/elizabethmacbride/2018/08/31/hedge-fund-billionaire-takes-on-the-strangely-thorny-issue-of-gun-data/



Just to be clear when I said you I didn't mean you. I agree 100% something needs to be done I don't want to see anyone get killed more then the next guy. But to me this seems like a mental issues and unfortunately I don't have any idea how to fix that


-P


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  #305 (permalink)
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No other country in the world has ststistics s like these! The Us makes up around 5%of the worlds population but holds 31%of global mass shootings.
There are more than 393 million civilian-owned firearms in the United States, or enough for every man, woman and child to own one and still have 67 million guns left over.

3 months of 2019

Total Number of Incidents 11,087
Number of Deaths1 3,017
Number of Injuries1 5,214
Number of Children (age 0-11)
Killed or Injured1 112
Number of Teens (age 12-17)
Killed or Injured1 490
Mass Shooting2 62
Officer Involved Incident
Officer Shot or Killed2 61
Officer Involved Incident
Subject-Suspect Shot or Killed2 458
Home Invasion2 385
Defensive Use2 262
Unintentional Shooting2 320

Gun violence and crime incidents are collected/validated from 2,500 sources daily Ė incidents and their source data are found at the gunviolencearchive.org website.

Data Validated: March 22, 2019
Gun Violence Archive

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MiniP View Post
If someone wants to do harm they will use cars,home made explosives,knives, acid the list goes on and on.

50 in one go using knives, acid, or cars. Really?

The world has some distorted people. Make it harder for them.

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  #307 (permalink)
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sixtyseven View Post
50 in one go using knives, acid, or cars. Really?

The world has some distorted people. Make it harder for them.


In Nice a truck killed 86 people and injured 458.

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  #308 (permalink)
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martinhunting View Post
No other country in the world has ststistics s like these! The Us makes up around 5%of the worlds population but holds 31%of global mass shootings.
There are more than 393 million civilian-owned firearms in the United States, or enough for every man, woman and child to own one and still have 67 million guns left over.

3 months of 2019

Total Number of Incidents 11,087
Number of Deaths1 3,017
Number of Injuries1 5,214
Number of Children (age 0-11)
Killed or Injured1 112
Number of Teens (age 12-17)
Killed or Injured1 490
Mass Shooting2 62
Officer Involved Incident
Officer Shot or Killed2 61
Officer Involved Incident
Subject-Suspect Shot or Killed2 458
Home Invasion2 385
Defensive Use2 262
Unintentional Shooting2 320

Gun violence and crime incidents are collected/validated from 2,500 sources daily – incidents and their source data are found at the gunviolencearchive.org website.

Data Validated: March 22, 2019
Gun Violence Archive

I would find it hard to say that a website called gunviolence isnt slightly bias and is most likely inflating those numbers. I checked for the 2018 FBI report and its not out yet so we will have to look at the 2017/16 until it comes out.
1) the problem with your stats is it doesn't take into account the amount of self inflicted wounds caused by guns
according to the CDC ( couldn't find the fbi report but will look later) 22,938 people kill them selves each year by guns https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

2) we can now see that handguns are the number one type of firearm used to kill
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

3) the types of bills that are trying to be passed are nothing more then emotional ideas on how to fix a problem and most people don't even understand what the real problem is. 2017 403 people were killed by a rifle, again there will be some self inflicted deaths in this number so maybe 200-300 actual murders.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12
take a look at the states that have some of the strictest gun laws and they end up having most of the murders (besides texas)

These laws/bills aren't going to do anything except hurt the law abiding citizens.

No i didn't pick previous years to fit what im trying to get across this was the first info i came across this morning.

-P

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sixtyseven View Post
50 in one go using knives, acid, or cars. Really?

The world has some distorted people. Make it harder for them.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

read this....
just because you hear about "assault rifles" in the media more doesn't mean these types of objects aren't used
-P

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I really hesitated to go into this, because the polarized feelings on all sides, in the US at least, have made guns a political and personal issue and feelings tend to run high. Also, I recognize that @MiniP and many others who favor these kinds of firearms are decent people whom I would enjoy having a beer (or a few ) with. This is not personal either.

Nevertheless....

1. I do not use the term "weapon" for anything with a purpose other than what we were taught in the Army -- to shoot people -- since a "weapon" is, by definition, used to kill people, not deer. That's why our targets looked like people, not deer. That's what war is about. It is not hunting, nor is it self-defense. I enjoyed the firing range and I like shooting, always have. But military weapons are for war, which is about killing people. (I know, most people who own an AR15 will never kill anyone. And I like it too, or I liked the M16 anyway. It's still a military style weapon, and that's still what it's best at.)

2. Is the AR15 a military style weapon? Pretty close. From Wikipedia:

"The M16 rifle, officially designated Rifle, Caliber 5.56 mm, M16, is a family of military rifles adapted from the ArmaLite AR-15 rifle for the United States military. The original M16 rifle was a 5.56mm automatic rifle with a 20-round magazine.

"In 1964, the M16 entered U.S. military service and the following year was deployed for jungle warfare operations during the Vietnam War.[1] In 1969, the M16A1 replaced the M14 rifle to become the U.S. military's standard service rifle.[17][18] The M16A1 improvements include a bolt-assist, chrome-plated bore and a 30-round magazine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

I trained on the M16A1, lineal descendant of the AR15. (Yeah, it was 1968 and 69. That long ago.) It would do just fine as a killing weapon if fired only semi-auto (one shot per trigger-pull) instead of full auto. On semi-auto, it's not that far from an AR15. You can pull that trigger fast, and often.

2. Everyone has, and should have, a lot of freedom to do as they like. But your freedom to swing your fists around, for example, ends anytime it gets close to my nose. I think your right to own any kind of firearm you like ends when availability of that firearm allows unstable or bad people to shoot up a large number of other people.

3. No one needs a hunting rifle, for example, that holds more than three or so rounds at a time. But three rounds, or a bolt-action, isn't real suited to mass murder. Large magazines and semi-auto fire have been proven to work real well.

4. Everyone has a right self-defense. But as someone who trained with military weapons, I don't want every random civilian (nor, for that matter, some random veteran either) who thinks he's being threatened to have one. What could possibly go wrong? That thought should scare the shit out of everybody. Would I own a rifle or handgun at home for self-defense? I don't, but sure. Not high-fire, and not one I carried around. Also, probably it would never be used outside of target practice on a range. I've never needed one so far, and I've been around a long time now.

5. I think high-round, repeated-fire (I mean semi-auto, which is plenty fast) firearms are great fun (and I'd include semi-auto handguns too) and I have enjoyed them outside of the military. They might be fine in some places and times. Today, I think there is a clear danger that needs to be rationally addressed, and it may mean that someone's otherwise legitimate right to do as he pleases has to take a back seat to addressing a real danger. And yes, I know guns don't kill people. Nuts with guns do. The same nut with a bolt-action hunting rifle or a revolver or small-magazine handgun could still kill people, but fewer. And much less easily.

I expect to get some genuine hate for posting this. I don't care. Somehow in this country it became an emotional cultural and political issue whether you are "pro" or "anti" guns. Meanwhile, when American nuts slaughter people, there is meaningless talk about "thoughts and prayers" and people shake their heads about how you can't do anything about people who are insane. And all attempts to do something are stopped. (Is there money involved? Well, duh.)

But in New Zealand, which has a strong hunting culture, they didn't hesitate to just say they'll remove the weapons (and that's the right word) from circulation, and keep them out of the hands of the nuts. You can't kill as many people nearly as fast with a low-magazine deer rifle. Or a knife. Or really, with anything else.

I don't know if we should (or can, realistically) do the New Zealand solution in the US. But if there's no effort to have a solution, if everything is just about thoughts and prayers and "too bad some people are insane, nothing can be done," then nothing will be done and there will be no change.

I understand Wyatt Earp made people check their guns when they came into Dodge. They thought it was safer that way. So do I. For the record, I am not particularly "anti" or "pro" guns. I wouldn't normally think of guns as that big an issue, and I have enjoyed them at times in my life. But things have gotten pretty far from normal. This is not about likes or culture or politics, it's about public safety.

End of rant. Probably no one will think any differently than they did before reading this. That's a big problem too. If we can't talk about it, we can't solve it.

Bob.

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bobwest View Post
I really hesitated to go into this, because the polarized feelings on all sides, in the US at least, have made guns a political and personal issue and feelings tend to run high. Also, I recognize that @MiniP and many others who favor these kinds of firearms are decent people whom I would enjoy having a beer (or a few ) with. This is not personal either.

Nevertheless....

1. I do not use the term "weapon" for anything with a purpose other than what we were taught in the Army -- to shoot people -- since a "weapon" is, by definition, used to kill people, not deer. That's why our targets looked like people, not deer. That's what war is about. It is not hunting, nor is it self-defense. I enjoyed the firing range and I like shooting, always have. But military weapons are for war, which is about killing people. (I know, most people who own an AR15 will never kill anyone. And I like it too, or I liked the M16 anyway. It's still a military style weapon, and that's still what it's best at.)

2. Is the AR15 a military style weapon? Pretty close. From Wikipedia:

"The M16 rifle, officially designated Rifle, Caliber 5.56 mm, M16, is a family of military rifles adapted from the ArmaLite AR-15 rifle for the United States military. The original M16 rifle was a 5.56mm automatic rifle with a 20-round magazine.

"In 1964, the M16 entered U.S. military service and the following year was deployed for jungle warfare operations during the Vietnam War.[1] In 1969, the M16A1 replaced the M14 rifle to become the U.S. military's standard service rifle.[17][18] The M16A1 improvements include a bolt-assist, chrome-plated bore and a 30-round magazine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

I trained on the M16A1, lineal descendant of the AR15. (Yeah, it was 1968 and 69. That long ago.) It would do just fine as a killing weapon if fired only semi-auto (one shot per trigger-pull) instead of full auto. On semi-auto, it's not that far from an AR15. You can pull that trigger fast, and often.

2. Everyone has, and should have, a lot of freedom to do as they like. But your freedom to swing your fists around, for example, ends anytime it gets close to my nose. I think your right to own any kind of firearm you like ends when availability of that firearm allows unstable or bad people to shoot up a large number of other people.

3. No one needs a hunting rifle, for example, that holds more than three or so rounds at a time. But three rounds, or a bolt-action, isn't real suited to mass murder. Large magazines and semi-auto fire have been proven to work real well.

4. Everyone has a right self-defense. But as someone who trained with military weapons, I don't want every random civilian (nor, for that matter, some random veteran either) who thinks he's being threatened to have one. What could possibly go wrong? That thought should scare the shit out of everybody. Would I own a rifle or handgun at home for self-defense? I don't, but sure. Not high-fire, and not one I carried around. Also, probably it would never be used outside of target practice on a range. I've never needed one so far, and I've been around a long time now.

5. I think high-round, repeated-fire (I mean semi-auto, which is plenty fast) firearms are great fun (and I'd include semi-auto handguns too) and I have enjoyed them outside of the military. They might be fine in some places and times. Today, I think there is a clear danger that needs to be rationally addressed, and it may mean that someone's otherwise legitimate right to do as he pleases has to take a back seat to addressing a real danger. And yes, I know guns don't kill people. Nuts with guns do. The same nut with a bolt-action hunting rifle or a revolver or small-magazine handgun could still kill people, but fewer. And much less easily.

I expect to get some genuine hate for posting this. I don't care. Somehow in this country it became an emotional cultural and political issue whether you are "pro" or "anti" guns. Meanwhile, when American nuts slaughter people, there is meaningless talk about "thoughts and prayers" and people shake their heads about how you can't do anything about people who are insane. And all attempts to do something are stopped. (Is there money involved? Well, duh.)

But in New Zealand, which has a strong hunting culture, they didn't hesitate to just say they'll remove the weapons (and that's the right word) from circulation, and keep them out of the hands of the nuts. You can't kill as many people nearly as fast with a low-magazine deer rifle. Or a knife. Or really, with anything else.

I don't know if we should (or can, realistically) do the New Zealand solution in the US. But if there's no effort to have a solution, if everything is just about thoughts and prayers and "too bad some people are insane, nothing can be done," then nothing will be done and there will be no change.

I understand Wyatt Earp made people check their guns when they came into Dodge. They thought it was safer that way. So do I. For the record, I am not particularly "anti" or "pro" guns. I wouldn't normally think of guns as that big an issue, and I have enjoyed them at times in my life. But things have gotten pretty far from normal. This is not about likes or culture or politics, it's about public safety.

End of rant. Probably no one will think any differently than they did before reading this. That's a big problem too. If we can't talk about it, we can't solve it.

Bob.

I don't think you are wrong at all I think we all want the same thing just a different way.

I also think it is hard to compare the US to other countries, we are a gun country this country was founded on the average citizen having the same exact type of weapons as the army. Yes firearms have changed a lot since then but I think we should be thankful for that. I would assume when you went to war you were happy you had an M16A1 instead of a Kentucky rifle.

Our 2nd amendment was ment to be a type of check and balance for the government. It was never about hunting or sporting it is about protecting our freedom so we don't end up like Venezuela.

I think something does need to be done, i think its horrible what is happening to these innocent men women and children. To me it seems more like a mental issue and a cultural issue.

Im not nearly as old as many of you on here but it seems like in the past we didn't have these huge huge killings and maybe it was because we didn't have the types of communications we do today but something change. The AR/M16 platform has been around since vietnam. What has changed recently to make these types of things a common issue?

One of the reason i think this is such a hot topic is because no one knows how to stop it, some want to take all the guns away and think that will work. Well I live in ohio and heroin is illegal and we go through narcan like its candy. If we can't stop drugs how can we stop guns. Yeah of couse there will be less of them but if you really want one you would be able to get one. Just like drugs, i can't go to walmart and get heroin but if i really wanted it I could go downtown and grab some.

Another issue is we can no longer have open conversations about ideas. If you believe one thing and say it to someone who believes something else instead of having a nice talk about it like this, everyone goes to the extremes and no one (either side) will listen to what the other says.

I use to do a ton of trade shows and we always used this one guy ( he was black) and we disagreed on almost everything BUT after hours and days of speaking with each other we both started to see the other side and would actually believe and understand what the other thinks and wants. THIS is what we need, more conversation and eventually everyone will find a common ground. We need more facts and more ideas.

Thank you for your service and opinion,

and to those who say civilians cant fight a military, look at iraq no outside forces have ever conquered those lands, many have tried and many have died over it. Also i would say "most" active military would not fire upon its own citizens but they are also human and I'm sure some would.

you might not be able to kill as many people with a knife/bat/ect but what if the vegas shooter instead of shooting threw IED's out his window. Everyone is one google search away of knowing how to make these devices.
-P

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MiniP View Post
I don't think you are wrong at all I think we all want the same thing just a different way.

...

I think something does need to be done, i think its horrible what is happening to these innocent men women and children. To me it seems more like a mental issue and a cultural issue.

Im not nearly as old as many of you on here but it seems like in the past we didn't have these huge huge killings and maybe it was because we didn't have the types of communications we do today but something change. The AR/M16 platform has been around since vietnam. What has changed recently to make these types of things a common issue?

...

Another issue is we can no longer have open conversations about ideas. If you believe one thing and say it to someone who believes something else instead of having a nice talk about it like this, everyone goes to the extremes and no one (either side) will listen to what the other says.

I use to do a ton of trade shows and we always used this one guy ( he was black) and we disagreed on almost everything BUT after hours and days of speaking with each other we both started to see the other side and would actually believe and understand what the other thinks and wants. THIS is what we need, more conversation and eventually everyone will find a common ground. We need more facts and more ideas.

I agree completely. This is a terrific post, and other than agreeing, I don't know what the solution will be. I do know there will be a solution, because there always is -- eventually.

So I'm glad I posted on this after all.

One thing I always want make clear when my having been in the Army at that time comes up: although I was in Infantry, by one of those quirks of fate and the bureaucracy, I wasn't sent to Nam, and spent my time in the war at a desk job. I don't want to convey any impression of war experience when there so were many who went and didn't come back, or came back with parts of their bodies that didn't work well any more, or were missing. It was a hard time for the country then.

We got through that, and we will get through this.

Bob.

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I logged on to post a screenshot of my latest trade in my journal, then saw this discussion and decided to step in here instead.

If Iím not mistaken, thereís little correlation between mental health and violence. Itís too simple to say that if someone kills a bunch of people theyíre crazy, so focus on the crazy people. Most if not all of our recent mass shooters functioned fairly normally in society, held jobs, and could pass a background check for guns.

I donít think it is a mental health issue, I think itís an ease of access to guns issue. There is an unequivocal correlation between the number of firearm death in the US and the number of firearms. Plain as day.

Iím on record in this forum as an avid gun owner, including numerous politically incorrect rifles, but Iíve also stated that I think itís time we make harder to get these kinds of guns (and Iíd probably include semi auto handguns as well).

However I do not think that will happen. I do not see any decrease in the number of gun deaths per year in this country, including mass shootings, in my lifetime. Pandora has been let out of the box. There are too many guns in circulation, and the gun industry is very powerful.

Whatís it going to take? Iíll tell you: a whole lot more people burying their kids. Thatís what will get peopleís attention. Until that happens, expect the numbers to stay the same, including several double digit fatality mass shootings a year.

Some of the arguments put forth by the die-hard pro gun side are downright fallacious. Thereís just no other way to put it. The best being that a good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun. Yes itís happened a few times but I think you can attribute that more to dumb luck. In some situations (the Atlanta courthouse shooting in 2005 and the Baltimore Navy shooting in 09 or 10) the good guy with a gun made things worse.

The record is clear that most mass shootings are stopped by unarmed citizens or the shooter himself.

As for the argument that they can make a homemade bomb or something like that, Iím not swayed. Not many of our disenfranchised, violence-prone men are going to go through the learning curve of that. They want to kill quickly and easily, and thereís no better way to do it than a semi-auto gun and some 15 to 30 round magazines. And they want to kill up close and relish in their victims terror (Las Vegas being an exception... I think that was more of the shooting fish in a barrel thrill). The bombers are all politically motivated. McVeigh, the Tsarnav brothers, the Unibomber. They killed from a distance.

To buy a house, it can take weeks to get approval for the loan. The banks going to scrutinize the hell out of you, theyíre not just going to hand over their money to anybody. Buying a gun takes like 20 minutes. I love guns and all, keep one on me or in arms reach nearly all day, but thatís just messed up.

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Pariah Carey View Post
If Iím not mistaken, thereís little correlation between mental health and violence. Itís too simple to say that if someone kills a bunch of people theyíre crazy, so focus on the crazy people. Most if not all of our recent mass shooters functioned fairly normally in society, held jobs, and could pass a background check for guns.

...

I do not see any decrease in the number of gun deaths per year in this country, including mass shootings, in my lifetime. Pandora has been let out of the box. There are too many guns in circulation, and the gun industry is very powerful.

Whatís it going to take? Iíll tell you: a whole lot more people burying their kids. Thatís what will get peopleís attention. Until that happens, expect the numbers to stay the same, including several double digit fatality mass shootings a year.
...

To buy a house, it can take weeks to get approval for the loan. The banks going to scrutinize the hell out of you, theyíre not just going to hand over their money to anybody. Buying a gun takes like 20 minutes. I love guns and all, keep one on me or in arms reach nearly all day, but thatís just messed up.

I think you're right, it's actually not a mental health issue -- even though we may say they are "nuts," they aren't in a medical sense.

I also think that, unfortunately, you are also right about what it will take: more dead kids until finally we don't take it any more.

Bob.

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Pariah Carey View Post
I logged on to post a screenshot of my latest trade in my journal, then saw this discussion and decided to step in here instead.

If Iím not mistaken, thereís little correlation between mental health and violence. Itís too simple to say that if someone kills a bunch of people theyíre crazy, so focus on the crazy people. Most if not all of our recent mass shooters functioned fairly normally in society, held jobs, and could pass a background check for guns.

I donít think it is a mental health issue, I think itís an ease of access to guns issue. There is an unequivocal correlation between the number of firearm death in the US and the number of firearms. Plain as day.

Iím on record in this forum as an avid gun owner, including numerous politically incorrect rifles, but Iíve also stated that I think itís time we make harder to get these kinds of guns (and Iíd probably include semi auto handguns as well).

However I do not think that will happen. I do not see any decrease in the number of gun deaths per year in this country, including mass shootings, in my lifetime. Pandora has been let out of the box. There are too many guns in circulation, and the gun industry is very powerful.

Whatís it going to take? Iíll tell you: a whole lot more people burying their kids. Thatís what will get peopleís attention. Until that happens, expect the numbers to stay the same, including several double digit fatality mass shootings a year.

Some of the arguments put forth by the die-hard pro gun side are downright fallacious. Thereís just no other way to put it. The best being that a good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun. Yes itís happened a few times but I think you can attribute that more to dumb luck. In some situations (the Atlanta courthouse shooting in 2005 and the Baltimore Navy shooting in 09 or 10) the good guy with a gun made things worse.

The record is clear that most mass shootings are stopped by unarmed citizens or the shooter himself.

As for the argument that they can make a homemade bomb or something like that, Iím not swayed. Not many of our disenfranchised, violence-prone men are going to go through the learning curve of that. They want to kill quickly and easily, and thereís no better way to do it than a semi-auto gun and some 15 to 30 round magazines. And they want to kill up close and relish in their victims terror (Las Vegas being an exception... I think that was more of the shooting fish in a barrel thrill). The bombers are all politically motivated. McVeigh, the Tsarnav brothers, the Unibomber. They killed from a distance.

To buy a house, it can take weeks to get approval for the loan. The banks going to scrutinize the hell out of you, theyíre not just going to hand over their money to anybody. Buying a gun takes like 20 minutes. I love guns and all, keep one on me or in arms reach nearly all day, but thatís just messed up.

I'd have to disagree with the mental health part, how many people are out there depressed but are great at there job? just because they aren't in a straight jacket doesn't mean they don't have issues.

I hope it doesn't come down to that,

I agree they could have a better way to purchase guns. I'd be for getting rid of the gun show loop hole with the exception of transferring firearms to family members when someone passes away.

-P

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I agree they could have a better way to purchase guns. I'd be for getting rid of the gun show loop hole with the exception of transferring firearms to family members when someone passes away.

-P

This would be a step. Plus just make it harder to buy a gun. For one of these guys, he would have failed his background check, but there was a delay in getting it back and so the dealer legally sold it to him anyway. Simple stuff like fixing this would help.

If we take more steps, there will be less shooting.

Bob.

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I'd like to thank @bobwest for posting what he did, despite fears of being shunned, and @MiniP & @Pariah Carey for their replies. Some good thoughtful posts on a subject that rarely gets such treatment. I know I'm responsible for pouring Gasoline on this fire/thread but I do find it an extremely interesting subject, and am not just trolling. Having spent the first 20+ years of my life in England - where I knew nobody who owned a gun, and the last 20+ years in Texas - where everybody owns a gun, I have seen two very different perspectives.

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@Pariah Carey Thanks for your great post. Just wanted to add my 2c.


Pariah Carey View Post
However I do not think that will happen. I do not see any decrease in the number of gun deaths per year in this country, including mass shootings, in my lifetime. Pandora has been let out of the box. There are too many guns in circulation, and the gun industry is very powerful.

I used to blame it on the NRA and the gun lobby, but I've come to realize that's a convenient excuse - we should blame it on the 1M+ membership of NRA. Every individual who supports the NRA needs to be called out for this. I'm all for forming an association or recreational group of like-minded people who love to hunt, but supporting an organization that is actively undermining our democracy and the safety of our children is just outright irresponsible.


Pariah Carey View Post
As for the argument that they can make a homemade bomb or something like that, I’m not swayed... They killed from a distance.

Yeah, the worst thing about this argument is that it gives you the false dichotomy that it will cause an increase in bomb users. No, whoever's capable of and intent on creating a bomb and deploying it has always been capable of and intent on doing so. It's not as though people stripped of their guns will suddenly go hunting with bombs.

Besides, even if this argument were true, it's still a good thing - bombs are more likely to be detected and safely detonated by law enforcement before they go off, they leave a more detectable paper trail, and it's not suitable for repeated use (e.g. Tsarnev brothers managed to toss 1 bomb into the mix during their gunfight, and it was completely harmless).

And even if I buy in to their fantasy that mass shooters will now turn to bombs which are somehow much more effective, then okay... these bombs must be so effective, so we'll still be fine because there will be civilians carrying bombs around with them who can take down the bombers. Or we can arm every school teacher with a bomb instead of a gun because they are supposedly so effective.

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bobwest View Post
This would be a step. Plus just make it harder to buy a gun. For one of these guys, he would have failed his background check, but there was a delay in getting it back and so the dealer legally sold it to him anyway. Simple stuff like fixing this would help.

If we take more steps, there will be less shooting.

Bob.

i think if they made the FBI check system better and more up to date this would solve a lot of these problems. Felons already can't have guns but the problem is there could be a felon with the same name as you and your a law abiding citizen and he gets mistaken for you.

I would like to say i think its a great thing a handful of people can have a constructive conversation and not hurl insults at each other. Hope this continues.

-P

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Sad it is, but giving up rights to guns will NOT fix it. My family has been in the bail industry for over 60 years and we have watched the court and detention systems slowly deteriorate at a disturbing rate. American's keep voting more liberal judges and politicians in every year. These same liberal judges practice catch and release, mass pardons, sancturay cities, no border control,etc., etc.

You peeps want a system to curtail gun violence? What system, Americans have given it away to the criminals.

JMHO

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WoodyFox View Post
Sad it is, but giving up rights to guns will NOT fix it. My family has been in the bail industry for over 60 years and we have watched the court and detention systems slowly deteriorate at a disturbing rate. American's keep voting more liberal judges and politicians in every year. These same liberal judges practice catch and release, mass pardons, sancturay cities, no border control,etc., etc.

You peeps want a system to curtail gun violence? What system, Americans have given it away to the criminals.

JMHO

This is purely anecdotal and not backed by data. The crime rates in U.S. are comparable to most developed countries. For example, it's lower than Finland in many cases:

Assault
USA - 249 per 100,000
Finland - 597 per 100,000

Property theft and robbery
USA - 2,362 per 100,000
Finland - 2,226 per 100,000

What's different is that the rate of lethal homicide is drastically higher in the U.S. than all of these other countries, of which the weapon of choice in these reported homicides is predominantly a gun.

This cannot be explained by any of the factors that you cited above, even if your claims were true. A person who has received a pardon isn't particularly more inclined to lethal homicide; undocumented immigrants aren't particularly more inclined to lethal homicide. (I don't know about others, but if I were trying to illegally immigrate into a country, I'd do a lot more to draw less attention to myself.)

But this can be explained by the fact that it is a lot more difficult to overpower a whole school with a kitchen knife than an assault rifle. The occasional person who goes crazy in a Japanese traffic crossing (denser than a school), brandishes a huge knife, only manages to take down 1 or 2 persons before getting subdued.

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artemiso View Post
This is purely anecdotal and not backed by data. The crime rates in U.S. are comparable to most developed countries. For example, it's lower than Finland in many cases:

Assault
USA - 249 per 100,000
Finland - 597 per 100,000

Property theft and robbery
USA - 2,362 per 100,000
Finland - 2,226 per 100,000

What's different is that the rate of lethal homicide is drastically higher in the U.S. than all of these other countries, of which the weapon of choice in these reported homicides is predominantly a gun.

This cannot be explained by any of the factors that you cited above, even if your claims were true. A person who has received a pardon isn't particularly more inclined to lethal homicide; undocumented immigrants aren't particularly more inclined to lethal homicide. (I don't know about others, but if I were trying to illegally immigrate into a country, I'd do a lot more to draw less attention to myself.)

But this can be explained by the fact that it is a lot more difficult to overpower a whole school with a kitchen knife than an assault rifle. The occasional person who goes crazy in a Japanese traffic crossing (denser than a school), brandishes a huge knife, only manages to take down 1 or 2 persons before getting subdued.

You do Know that automatic assault rifles have been illegal in the US since the 80's. Assault rifle is just a scary word. There are many guns as lethal and not considered an assault.

Hey I go an idea? Cars kill $30,000 a year in the US. Lets take fast cars away.

Genius?

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WoodyFox View Post
You do Know that automatic assault rifles have been illegal in the US since the 80's. Assault rifle is just a scary word. There are many guns as lethal and not considered an assault.

Hey I go an idea? Cars kill $30,000 a year in the US. Lets take fast cars away.

Genius?

Automatic weapons (machine guns, select fire, whatever you want to call them) are not illegal in this country. It is illegal for a civilian to own one that was manufactured after May 1986. This has of course drastically reduced the available supply, also drastically increasing their value. For this reason, machine guns are considered by some to be excellent investments.

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Pariah Carey View Post
Automatic weapons (machine guns, select fire, whatever you want to call them) are not illegal in this country. It is illegal for a civilian to own one that was manufactured after May 1986. This has of course drastically reduced the available supply, also drastically increasing their value. For this reason, machine guns are considered by some to be excellent investments.

unless you get a manufacturing license and then can make what ever you want. but again this is in dept and most people would rather dremmel off the parts then go to this extent.


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Gun violence is a problem in the US, compared to other western democracies ,




Semiautomatic rifles have been used in some of the countryís deadliest shootings, such as those in Newtown, Orlando, San Bernardino and Las Vegas. The AR-15, a lightweight, customizable version of the militaryís M16, soared in popularity after a 10-year federal ban on assault weapons expired in 2004. Some of the Las Vegas shooterís guns had been fitted with legal devices called ďbump-fire stocks,Ē which allow semiautomatic rifles to fire as quickly as automatic ones.

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martinhunting View Post
Gun violence is a problem in the US, compared to other western democracies ,




Semiautomatic rifles have been used in some of the countryís deadliest shootings, such as those in Newtown, Orlando, San Bernardino and Las Vegas. The AR-15, a lightweight, customizable version of the militaryís M16, soared in popularity after a 10-year federal ban on assault weapons expired in 2004. Some of the Las Vegas shooterís guns had been fitted with legal devices called ďbump-fire stocks,Ē which allow semiautomatic rifles to fire as quickly as automatic ones.

sorry but I feel get over it, the weapon of choice is an inanimate object. It's lifeless requires a human to make it do what it is capable of. Sad yes but true it is the human part that needs addressing. People all over the globe utilize the "killing power" of said weapons to provide food and security for their families.
Why punish everyone for owning a firearm.

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martinhunting View Post
Gun violence is a problem in the US, compared to other western democracies ,




Semiautomatic rifles have been used in some of the countryís deadliest shootings, such as those in Newtown, Orlando, San Bernardino and Las Vegas. The AR-15, a lightweight, customizable version of the militaryís M16, soared in popularity after a 10-year federal ban on assault weapons expired in 2004. Some of the Las Vegas shooterís guns had been fitted with legal devices called ďbump-fire stocks,Ē which allow semiautomatic rifles to fire as quickly as automatic ones.

23000 of the US deaths were suicides? Just another piece of evidence that the person is the problem.

JMHO

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To me it seems more like a mental issue and a cultural issue.

One of the reason i think this is such a hot topic is because no one knows how to stop it, some want to take all the guns away and think that will work. Well I live in ohio and heroin is illegal and we go through narcan like its candy. If we can't stop drugs how can we stop guns. Yeah of couse there will be less of them but if you really want one you would be able to get one. Just like drugs, i can't go to walmart and get heroin but if i really wanted it I could go downtown and grab some.

Banning guns is a long term investment. It will take 50-100 years before there is a significant change. Firstly because you need to get the guns out of circulation, which will take a long time, and secondly a few generations need to grow up without guns as the norm. People are always going to kill each other, but the object is for it to happen less.

It is a complex issue with a lot of factors which should all be worked on. I'm guessing a large portion of the US school killings are a result of bullying & depression. That in itself is a complex issue to resolve.

No one is naive enough to say remove guns and the problem suddenly disappears. But removing guns is a logical first step.

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learning0101 View Post
sorry but I feel get over it, the weapon of choice is an inanimate object. It's lifeless requires a human to make it do what it is capable of. Sad yes but true it is the human part that needs addressing. People all over the globe utilize the "killing power" of said weapons to provide food and security for their families.
Why punish everyone for owning a firearm.


WoodyFox View Post
23000 of the US deaths were suicides? Just another piece of evidence that the person is the problem.

JMHO

Both of you are absolutely right. The person is the problem. The same goes for pedophiles, rapists, and drug dealers.

Your position is entirely valid. From an individualistic moral interpretation, FBI has no right to be seizing sites that serve adult pornography if they just happen to have some child pornography that someone else put up there. You are a legal, licensed consumer of adult pornography, you don't go around middle schools armed with child pornography, and you keep your pornography stash locked in safe. You only take your adult pornography out when you go out in the woods to go hunting. And the First Amendment protects your right of sexual expression. Why should you be deprived of your legal, adult pornography on your favorite site just because some crazy pedophile messes it up for all of us? You may argue that we should just treat the pedophile and leave the child pornography alone.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way. There's no foolproof way to detect or psychiatrically treat a pedophile in the making. What we do is to outlaw date rape drugs and seize sites that serve child pornography. All of these are inanimate objects that facilitate the crime.

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learning0101 View Post
sorry but I feel get over it, the weapon of choice is an inanimate object. It's lifeless requires a human to make it do what it is capable of. Sad yes but true it is the human part that needs addressing. People all over the globe utilize the "killing power" of said weapons to provide food and security for their families.
Why punish everyone for owning a firearm.



This line of argument is basically a strawman fallacy, which is when you construct a weaker version of your opponent's argument in order to then disprove it. In this case the weaker argument is that "guns kill people" all by themselves. No one actually believes that or argues that. Even the most committed gun control advocate acknowledges that firing a gun takes human intervention. The stronger argument being concealed by the strawman is "people with guns kill more people than do people without guns."

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artemiso View Post
Both of you are absolutely right. The person is the problem. The same goes for pedophiles, rapists, and drug dealers.

Your position is entirely valid. From an individualistic moral interpretation, FBI has no right to be seizing sites that serve adult pornography if they just happen to have some child pornography that someone else put up there. You are a legal, licensed consumer of adult pornography, you don't go around middle schools armed with child pornography, and you keep your pornography stash locked in safe. You only take your adult pornography out when you go out in the woods to go hunting. And the First Amendment protects your right of sexual expression. Why should you be deprived of your legal, adult pornography on your favorite site just because some crazy pedophile messes it up for all of us? You may argue that we should just treat the pedophile and leave the child pornography alone.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't work that way. There's no foolproof way to detect or psychiatrically treat a pedophile in the making. What we do is to outlaw date rape drugs and seize sites that serve child pornography. All of these are inanimate objects that facilitate the crime.



And what happens when they take one site down? Another one pops up. What happens when you confiscate drugs more pop up. What's going to happen when you take the guns away ? More will pop up. You know how easy it is to make a gun? This idea of banning an object is absurd and won't work. Anything that is illegal is able to be obtained or made.


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And what happens when they take one site down? Another one pops up. What happens when you confiscate drugs more pop up. What's going to happen when you take the guns away ? More will pop up. You know how easy it is to make a gun? This idea of banning an object is absurd and won't work. Anything that is illegal is able to be obtained or made.

This is completely speculative, what makes you think that the number of guns in circulation will increase or stay the same if they are restricted? It certainly didn't go that way for Australia, Japan, Singapore - and many other countries that have stricter gun laws. I'm sure our Australian and Japanese friends are just as capable of 3D printing their own guns whatnot.

Maybe I don't know about guns, but I do know how easy it is to construct a nuclear device. I was licensed to do so as far back as when I was in high school, and later on I went on to study physics in university. And I certainly think that we should control the export of deuterium, zirconium tubes, low boron concentration graphite, thorium and enriched uranium. Same goes with guns. Just because it's easy to build a nuclear weapon doesn't mean we give up and freely export nuclear grade materials all over the world.

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I would like to say i think its a great thing a handful of people can have a constructive conversation and not hurl insults at each other. Hope this continues.


This. Great thread folks. I love the recreational aspects of owning a gun, but that's just about the extent of my involvement with them. I'm learning a lot from this conversation, thanks.

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This. Great thread folks. I love the recreational aspects of owning a gun, but that's just about the extent of my involvement with them. I'm learning a lot from this conversation, thanks.

Yes, I always enjoy this argument too. The funny thing is, in the near future guns will be such an antique. There will be less primitive assault weapons that can be easily obtained or made. And then there will be the new argument that they should be banned? They just don't get it? People make the decision to kill, not the weapon! If I'm still around then, I will have to hear all my liberal friends say "But that's such the strawman argument"

So couldn't agree more with Rrrracer. Great argument, and always fun.

And remember..... Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one!

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People make the decision to kill, not the weapon!

Whenever I see this comment I always revert to Eddie Izzard's "They say that guns don't kill people, people do, but guns help"


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Yes, I always enjoy this argument too. The funny thing is, in the near future guns will be such an antique. There will be less primitive assault weapons that can be easily obtained or made. And then there will be the new argument that they should be banned? They just don't get it? People make the decision to kill, not the weapon! If I'm still around then, I will have to hear all my liberal friends say "But that's such the strawman argument"

So couldn't agree more with Rrrracer. Great argument, and always fun.

And remember..... Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one!

One more note....

No one has ever said that guns kill people all by themselves. Obviously, people kill people. Sometimes, some guns make it easy for them to kill more.

The guy in the Las Vegas shooting who used a modified AR15 that let him fire off automatic bursts into the crowd below killed a whole lot more people than he could have with a regular AR15, because of the rate of fire. A hunting rifle with a smaller magazine would have let him kill still fewer, because he would have been stopping to reload. This matters. There would have been a whole lot fewer dead people if it had not been so easy to kill them at a high rate.

Why do you think the military uses weapons with a high rate of fire? Because it makes it easier to kill people on the other side, why else?

The guy in New Zealand had a regualr AR15, which, with its semi-auto fire and big magazine, let him kill more people faster than a rifle with a smaller magazine (which would require more reloading time) and much more than a non-semi-auto rifle (slower rate of fire.)

If it were harder to get high-output firearms, it would be harder to use them. So it would be harder to massacre so many people before law enforcement can put a stop to it.

The guns didn't make any choices to kill people, they didn't make any choices at all. But their greater capability to deliver firepower made the shooters more deadly.

Of course, regular, non-killing people have every right to own a rifle for hunting or recreation. But if you're such a lousy shot that you need 30 rounds fired very fast to hit a deer you plan to eat, your family is going to starve. And yes, it's terrific fun to shoot up a target on a firing range with a high rate of fire rifle. I have done it and I like it too.

If I had to live by hunting, I wouldn't need 30 freaking shots to hit something, nor would anyone else. If I wanted to go to the range and shoot up some targets, I could do it without high-capacity semi-auto. Maybe it wouldn't be as fun, but maybe my right to have fun is less important than some totally innocent person's right to stay alive. Maybe my recreation isn't so damn important if that's what we compare it to.

The most tragic thing is that even small changes would matter. The guy who killed those people in an African-American church was a convicted felon with a record. The background check with the dealer was held up due to some delay, and the dealer then legally sold him the gun he wanted. This is just an error in the law, because it doesn't require the background check's results to actually be in the dealer's hand with a positive result before the sale can go through. (After three days it's OK to sell whether anything came back or not.) Likewise, you can buy a firearm of any type at a trade show and there will be no background check at all.

Is any of this even slightly rational, considering the harm that the wrong person can do, and considering how small the inconvenience of changing it would be to non-violent people? I understand that a majority of even the NRA's members approve of better background checks, and why would they not? We're not talking outlawing these guns here, we're talking being careful about who gets to buy them. And yes, they could get around it -- but why not make it at least a little harder? It would matter.

Even small, obviously worthwhile changes that most people in this country favor in polling can't go through, probably because politicians fear the gun lobby and its money. The gun lobby wants to sell more guns -- not itself a bad thing, but it shouldn't govern our policy or laws. Public safety should figure in too. It also has become a cultural/social/political issue, instead of a matter of trying to make it harder for a few people to kill a lot of others.

With this, I guess I'm done. Sometimes a conversation will affect people's opinions, sometimes it won't. All I'm sure I've done in this thread is that my fingers have gotten tired typing stuff that I think people of many persuasions should be able to agree on.

Oh well.

Bob.

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One more note....

No one has ever said that guns kill people all by themselves. Obviously, people kill people. Sometimes, some guns make it easy for them to kill more.

The guy in the Las Vegas shooting who used a modified AR15 that let him fire off automatic bursts into the crowd below killed a whole lot more people than he could have with a regular AR15, because of the rate of fire. A hunting rifle with a smaller magazine would have let him kill still fewer, because he would have been stopping to reload. This matters. There would have been a whole lot fewer dead people if it had not been so easy to kill them at a high rate.

Why do you think the military uses weapons with a high rate of fire? Because it makes it easier to kill people on the other side, why else?

The guy in New Zealand had a regualr AR15, which, with its semi-auto fire and big magazine, let him kill more people faster than a rifle with a smaller magazine (which would require more reloading time) and much more than a non-semi-auto rifle (slower rate of fire.)

If it were harder to get high-output firearms, it would be harder to use them. So it would be harder to massacre so many people before law enforcement can put a stop to it.

The guns didn't make any choices to kill people, they didn't make any choices at all. But their greater capability to deliver firepower made the shooters more deadly.

Of course, regular, non-killing people have every right to own a rifle for hunting or recreation. But if you're such a lousy shot that you need 30 rounds fired very fast to hit a deer you plan to eat, your family is going to starve. And yes, it's terrific fun to shoot up a target on a firing range with a high rate of fire rifle. I have done it and I like it too.

If I had to live by hunting, I wouldn't need 30 freaking shots to hit something, nor would anyone else. If I wanted to go to the range and shoot up some targets, I could do it without high-capacity semi-auto. Maybe it wouldn't be as fun, but maybe my right to have fun is less important than some totally innocent person's right to stay alive. Maybe my recreation isn't so damn important if that's what we compare it to.

The most tragic thing is that even small changes would matter. The guy who killed those people in an African-American church was a convicted felon with a record. The background check with the dealer was held up due to some delay, and the dealer then legally sold him the gun he wanted. This is just an error in the law, because it doesn't require the background check's results to actually be in the dealer's hand with a positive result before the sale can go through. (After three days it's OK to sell whether anything came back or not.) Likewise, you can buy a firearm of any type at a trade show and there will be no background check at all.

Is any of this even slightly rational, considering the harm that the wrong person can do, and considering how small the inconvenience of changing it would be to non-violent people? I understand that a majority of even the NRA's members approve of better background checks, and why would they not? We're not talking outlawing these guns here, we're talking being careful about who gets to buy them. And yes, they could get around it -- but why not make it at least a little harder? It would matter.

Even small, obviously worthwhile changes that most people in this country favor in polling can't go through, probably because politicians fear the gun lobby and its money. The gun lobby wants to sell more guns -- not itself a bad thing, but it shouldn't govern our policy or laws. Public safety should figure in too. It also has become a cultural/social/political issue, instead of a matter of trying to make it harder for a few people to kill a lot of others.

With this, I guess I'm done. Sometimes a conversation will affect people's opinions, sometimes it won't. All I'm sure I've done in this thread is that my fingers have gotten tired typing stuff that I think people of many persuasions should be able to agree on.

Oh well.

Bob.

I think most peeps agree on some types of gun control. So were not to far apart.

The funny thing is, I don't even own a gun, don't like shooting them, and certainly would have trouble pulling the trigger on another living creature. Only if it was to protect family or friends.

Just like in trading. You can have all the filters you want and you will still have losing trades. So the question is, what filters and how many do we need?

That's the million dollar question!

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I think most peeps agree on some types of gun control. So were not to far apart.

The funny thing is, I don't even own a gun, don't like shooting them, and certainly would have trouble pulling the trigger on another living creature. Only if it was to protect family or friends.

Just like in trading. You can have all the filters you want and you will still have losing trades. So the question is, what filters and how many do we need?

That's the million dollar question!

Well, there you go. I think that's exactly the question.

Something would be better than nothing, and would be a place to start. Anything would help.

Bob.

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Well, there you go. I think that's exactly the question.

Something would be better than nothing, and would be a place to start. Anything would help.

Bob.

Yes, exactly. And remember...Too many filters and you don't place a trade.

Just like with guns, Too many laws and no more guns allowed.



There are many gun laws in place as we speak. So how do we tweak those or add to those without banning guns. (excluding fully automatic weapons, which are already banned without a license that is very hard to get)

Now Don't filter yourself out of a trading job Bob! lol

I just love this analogy. Nice when you can come back to trading!

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By the way, where in the hell is Big Mike? He started the dam thread! LOL.

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By the way, where in the hell is Big Mike? He started the dam thread! LOL.

Mike's been going through multiple hospitalizations and operations for some time now.

He hasn't posted in his main thread since he started the latest of these. No way to know more right now.

Info, what we have, can be found here:

One can only hope things are going well, and wait for word.

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Didn't know that. I hope things are going well for him too.

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Slightly off the gun topic, and I know somebody will start screaming about freedom of speech but I found this interesting. It just highlights how differently NZ are treating this than the what would happen (or not-happen) in the US.

NYTimes:- New Zealand Bans the Christchurch Suspectís Manifesto
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/world/asia/new-zealand-christchurch-shooter-manifesto.html

New Zealand classified his so-called manifesto as ďobjectionableĒ on Saturday, making it a crime to possess or distribute it anywhere in the country.
and
Prosecutors have also gone after people who shared that video. As of Thursday, at least two people had been charged with sharing the video via social media, under a law that forbids dissemination or possession of material depicting extreme violence and terrorism. Others could face related charges in connection with publicizing the terrorist attack, under a human rights law that forbids incitement of racial disharmony.
and with regards to freedom of speech
These cases are possible because while freedom of expression is a legal right in New Zealand, the parameters are more restrictive than the First Amendment guarantees in the United States.

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Not the greatest article out there but I did find this summary table interesting - although the medium/large calibration separation could do with some clarification. Guess it's no surprise that high caliber guns have higher fatality rates.




https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/27/upshot/deadly-bullets-guns.html

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Young American White Males (and not religiously radical foreign terrorists!) had a busy weekend! 20 dead and 26 injured in El Paso, 9 dead and 27 wounded in Dayton. Minutes Before El Paso Killing, Hate-Filled Manifesto Appears Online. Suspect gun lobby will say the problem is not enough people have guns to stop these people! How this isn't embarrassing to every single American, even gun owners, amazes me. No where else in the world does this happen with this frequency, and by our own people, not foreign terrorists.

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SMCJB View Post
Young American White Males (and not religiously radical foreign terrorists!) had a busy weekend! 20 dead and 26 injured in El Paso, 9 dead and 27 wounded in Dayton. Minutes Before El Paso Killing, Hate-Filled Manifesto Appears Online. Suspect gun lobby will say the problem is not enough people have guns to stop these people! How this isn't embarrassing to every single American, even gun owners, amazes me. No where else in the world does this happen with this frequency, and by our own people, not foreign terrorists.

I was wondering if someone was going to post. It's horrifying what is happening with the morality of many (too many) Americans, everyone has become desensitized to violence -- even mass shootings -- to the point where we simply don't care that our Congress would rather line their pockets and stay in power, than pass legislation that could help prevent these tragedies in a variety of ways.

It saddens me deeply beyond words that today's America is about exclusion, fear mongering and hatred, instead of wide open arms and welcoming those who are in need. The entire philosophy being deployed is all wrong, and just leads to more hatred of Americans worldwide, and that won't end well.

The answer is certainly not to drop more bombs (physical bombs or tweet bombs loaded with provocative racial language and dog whistle calls to the other hatred filled racists). It's not name calling and divisiveness, but rather the opposite. And gun owners need to stop already with the "their coming for your guns" crap. This is a national emergency, a real one -- not one invented to provoke fear. This, THIS is an emergency. So many things need the urgent attention of the American people. There is not one single thing that is a quick fix, but rather a whole host of changes that have to be made, a new way of thinking of unity and embracing those in need, like the America of old when she was at her best.

It makes me sick to think about the trendline that is America of my generation. I am not singling out the current President. This trendline has been moving the wrong way for a long time now. That isn't a dog whistle saying I opposed Obama either. I am talking about my entire generation (I turn 42 in September), it feels as if America has lost its way. Turned its back, preferred war over peace, and started building walls to keep people out instead of investing in its own future and welcoming people in.

I certainly hope we see something hold as "support" soon, so we can all "get long" again for the sake of the next generation -- the America that once stood for the best of the best of the world, now unfortunately is imploding in on itself. I can only imagine the laughter of other "enemies" of the USA, they are sitting back while we quite literally realize all they predicted upon us, largely without any of their help.

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Suspect gun lobby will say the problem is not enough people have guns to stop these people!

"Yeah, come on, this is not the time to politicize this. The nation needs to heal. It's only just the 259th time this year. We should be focusing on our thoughts and prayers." Oh, and mental health.

And yeah what's the point of stopping him from procuring a high-caliber weapon? He chose to carry this out with an assault rifle, like almost every one of the 258 before him this year, because he didn't have kitchen knives at home, okay? He could just as easily have done as much with a kitchen knife.

Nevermind that the perpetrator's own father runs a mental health clinic and has a graduate degree in professional counseling.

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Quoting 
It makes me sick to think about the trendline that is America of my generation. I am not singling out the current President. This trendline has been moving the wrong way for a long time now.

I really respect you for sticking your neck out as the owner of the community and sharing your views.

Quite unfortunately with the current climate, it's impossible to have a productive dialogue with some elements of our society without the same demanding to know your entire voting history, political alignment, ethnic provenance, and immigration status. It's great that you're looking at this from a completely nonpartisan, apolitical angle.


Quoting 
That isn't a dog whistle saying I opposed Obama either.

I feel Obama has some fault in this too. Obama's biggest mistake was assuming that fringe groups in his Congress, many not even fairly or democratically elected, would ever negotiate in good faith when it came down to issues like gun control. His mistake was letting them completely rape the electoral process and constitutional coequality of the three branches in plain sight. His mistake was taking a Kantian deontological stance (the belief that his own moral course of action can be decided with the presumption that other people will act out of good will and respect for moral law) towards trying to keep every person happy, even if some of those persons opposed him purely for his skin color or did not have the academic grounding to decide the best policies for this country.

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Damn, I don't want to get into another gun debate. Nor another rural vs. city, red vs. blue, one side vs. the other side, whatever vs. whatever debate.

At one time, everyone generally agreed on certain things. Not everything was good, but there was a common ground on many things, and a person could expect things could go forward with some mutual amity. The social turmoil of the last several decades shook that idea up some, but it was still possible to believe in an evolving common ground. It was possible to think that humankind was going to become less stupid.

We are now in a position where temporary political advantage justifies everything. It should not be a partisan issue, and I don't want to throw gasoline on the partisan fire when there is already enough.

It's time for all people of good will to say that enough of this shit is enough, and put an end to the slaughter of innocent people. This is not a political position, it is a human one. Woe on anyone who thinks that politics (which means: power for someone with an interest at stake) justifies inaction. You could be the one who is randomly shot next. Do we want to live in such a society? I don't.

No one's actual legitimate desires and rights to shoot or hunt or otherwise enjoy what should be a harmless hobby is threatened by stopping mass murder. With a will to do it, it could be done with no one's legitimate interests being harmed. Only politicians benefit from perpetuating that myth, in order to work up people and get their votes.

I am not, however, at all sure that more killings will convince anyone that they should be stopped. There will be the usual bullshit about "thoughts and prayers," and nothing will be done. It would costs someone some money, and someone else some votes. We've come to this, and it's an unspeakable shame.

Bob.

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Even small, obviously worthwhile changes that most people in this country favor in polling can't go through, probably because politicians fear the gun lobby and its money. The gun lobby wants to sell more guns -- not itself a bad thing, but it shouldn't govern our policy or laws. Public safety should figure in too. It also has become a cultural/social/political issue, instead of a matter of trying to make it harder for a few people to kill a lot of others.

This is incredibly easy to resolve as well. All it takes is to recognize that technology has significantly outgrown what Madison, Washington, Hamilton, Franklin and their compatriots could've conceived. You can get from China to the US faster than it took to get from Philadelphia to New York on horseback. Your microwave oven has enough computing power to run a simulation to partition the population. Messages can be exchanged across the world in one heartbeat. Mathematics to secure identities in a trustless, permissionless and publicly transparent setting is now well understood. The average college graduate has more knowledge than Thomas Jefferson.

The constitution is horrible by objective standards today. With what we have today, pure sortition with single, fixed terms, is an infinitely more powerful way to elect representatives to the legislative branch. We just need to pick 535 people in complete random from the population to represent us, almost like jury duty, say every 2 or 4 years.

Instead what we have are a bunch of mostly men whose average age is now 58 to 62 - a number that continues to increase. A group that's represented 40+% by lawyers, which should only compose 0.6% of our population. Correlated with that, most of them have incomes that are far out of reach of the average person.

Part of the gun violence we're seeing comes from deep sense of resentment towards immigrants, which is itself strongly explained by the fact that a very significant portion of the population feels left behind. This sort of sentiment is not present in Switzerland, where guns are freely available, but the socioeconomic gap is small. Not only are the folks blocking common sense gun regulation preventing us from reaching a solution, they are the source of the unhappiness towards immigrants, distrust of government, and all because they're not there to represent the best interests of our population by design.

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Human history is not linear. Its cyclical. Sadly, it looks like we are caught in the cycle of corruption, mistrust and greed on the tail end of democracy.
Mob rule is on the horizon and looking more and more likely in the very near future.The founding members of the American constitution were well aware of this and the thinking behind the constitution was motivated by Polybius theory on the cycles of government. It is a fascinating subject. I drew a picture:


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Regardless of political affiliation or views on the president, I think we can all agree these events are horrible. What I think seems to really make these conversations so heated is everyone is mad regardless of your views and we all want to fix things someway but we don't know how. I'm sorry one change of a law or amendment isn't going to fix this.. could it help ?? who knows. One thing I think we can all agree on is that society has changed and certain parts of it are changing for the worse.

Like mike stated before, this has been an on going issue and only gets worse every year. It definitely seems to be worse among my generation ( im 26) , one of the contributing factors in my view is how kids are being taught in school .We still are teaching kids the same way we have for the past 40 years.. yeah they might use a laptop now instead or a type writer but the core of education is the same.

Bullying in my point of view leads to a lot of these issues maybe not at the on set of the incident but has long term effect on some individuals and I'm sure leads to certain behavioral issues in the persons life. Is this the end all be all fix to this horrible issue.. not at all but we need to find a way to fix society as a whole. Today it seems like we are all much more self centered and just down right angry.

-P

and it just surfaced that the dayton shooter made a hit list in highschool which most likely means he was bullied and the school did little to nothing to deal with this issue.
The same thing happened in one of the others ( god its bad I can't even remember which one because there are so many)

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
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Can't vouch for the authenticity but assuming its true I believe it says something!


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This tragedy would not have happened if the killer had not had a gun.

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This tragedy would not have happened if the killer had not had a gun.

There is a posability this tragedy would have not happened if German Jews were not disarmed. They would have at least been able to go out fighting. There has to be way to fix America's mental health problems without taking gun rights away.

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Sell weapons without (nearly) any restriction. But hold back the ammunition and control it!!
Have experience of over 20 years in Swiss military: every soldier gets the army (quick fire) weapon to store at home. With a package (sealed) of 24 pieces of ammunition. For the yearly training we had to go to a shooting area where ammunition was given exactly for the whole program. On next military service everyone had to present the weapon and deposit the sealed and named ammunition pack. In Switzerland we do not have any shootings like in US. Even though nearly every Swiss adult (mostly male) has an army weapon at home. The trick is in storing weapon and ammunition separately.
Maybe an easy solution... Of course some people need to take out billions of ammunition pieces in the market
GFIs1

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This is just one day in America !

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

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This is just one day in America !

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

You need more context info were those suicides,murders,self defense shootings , accidental misfires etc etc ... all those get lumped into one and it can skew the numbers I'm not disagreeing it's a lot but need more info


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Just go to this site the break down is there, if you want contex

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

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I'm curious what the guns don't kill people, people kill people, crowd think of a story like this. These are American sold guns being used in crimes across our borders. The guns are sourced from here rather than there own countries because they are so easy to get here and so difficult to get there.

New York Times:- One Handgun, 9 Murders: How American Firearms Cause Carnage Abroad
Hundreds of thousands of guns sold in the United States vanish because of loose American gun laws. Many reappear in Jamaica, turning its streets into battlefields.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/25/world/americas/one-handgun-9-murders-how-american-firearms-cause-carnage-abroad.html

And for those of you who think this is just liberal media posting click bait, here's a different one for you.

Houston Chronicle:- Seven Houstonians convicted in running guns to Mexico
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Seven-Houstonians-convicted-in-running-guns-to-5418890.php
35 military-style rifles in a secret compartment behind the rear seat


Or this one

Houston Chronicle:- Alleged gun-running ring busted
https://blog.chron.com/narcoconfidential/2013/01/alleged-gun-running-ring-busted/
worked together to illegally purchase 21 military style guns


or another

Houston Chronicle:- Houston man gets 4 years for smuggling guns to Mexico
https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Houston-man-gets-4-years-for-smuggling-guns-to-1725488.php
was a ďprolificĒ purchaser among a group of 23 arms traffickers who bought at least 339 firearms for Mexican organized crime syndicates


There are dozens more stories like this. Yes we have a lot of guns in Texas and Yes Houston is relatively close to the Mexican border.

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Just on (also conspiratorial) curiosity, the msm never seems to follow up in entirety on some shooting cases shrouded in mystery, such as the batman shooter, Sandy Hook, and now the Las Vegas Paddock shooting. Recap on zerohedge recently:

"5 Unanswered Questions That Remain 2 Years After The Vegas Shooting"

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/5-unanswered-questions-remain-2-years-after-vegas-shooting

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and what ever happened with the Epstein thing? Weird how stuff just disappears.

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news isnt news like it use to be its all about clicks and when the clicks slow down its time to drum up some thing else

and thats for all news networks

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News is just propaganda tool. Even the relatively free one just tries to get more clicks and views. Its ironic how "freedom of speech" has helped the crooks in this case.

On guns my view is rather simple, ppl make it too complicated, there is no real need for it.
There are lot of frustrated ppl in this world and if you make guns available to them easily, someday some emotional trigger will lead them to gun trigger and they will harm either themselves or other ppl.

You shouldn't just depend on psych evaluation to profile possible mass shooters, completely fine and normal ppl can do that too if whatever trigger in their head is pushed that far. In fact there is good chance that real psychopaths are also good at acting "normal". These methods are unreliable, just take the guns out of equation, at least you will reduce the casualty number.

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Saugus High School shooting in Santa Clarita
From the NYT story... "It was at least the 11th school shooting this year"!!!

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Im curious to what everyone's opinion on gun makers now being responsible for these shootings.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-allows-sandy-hook-families-lawsuit-against-gunmaker-go-n1080536

One- the shootings are terrible
two- if we hold company's responsible for everything someone does who buys/uses there product we are not going to have anything due to the fact the liabilities will be to high.

Next we will see Facebook be charged with teen suicides due to bullying and ford for drunk drivers and you tube for teaching people how to make bombs. The list goes on and one

I think we are entering a very dangerous period and many people will only look at this and say guns are bad fine the people who make them but they aren't thinking about what this could turn into.

again I think these shootings are horrible but this could be very dangerous as a whole

-P

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I agree @MiniP. Where does it stop? Can you sue politicians for not implementing laws to prevent this? Can you sue somebody for letting you finance, say a car, that they knew you would struggle to repay? I think this is a slippery slope.

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SMCJB View Post
I agree @MiniP. Where does it stop? Can you sue politicians for not implementing laws to prevent this? Can you sue somebody for letting you finance, say a car, that they knew you would struggle to repay? I think this is a slippery slope.

it even takes us back to the housing crisis, can we start to sue all the people who made bad decisions or set us up with horrible loans. Something needs to be done but this needs to be stopped immediately, whats going to stop you from suing me because I expressed my trade Idea and you lost your house over it.

Do guns need to print/stamp on the receiver "do not shoot humans with this" kinda similar to the hot coffee issue years ago.

You could go on and on and on, kinda scary if you really think about.

-P

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people are dangerous. Don't give them guns.

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people are dangerous. Don't give them guns.

some of the earliest human remains ever found had bits of stone and wood fragments in the bones indicating that they were killed/injured by early types of weapons... humans have been killing each other since day one.

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MiniP View Post
some of the earliest human remains ever found had bits of stone and wood fragments in the bones indicating that they were killed/injured by early types of weapons... humans have been killing each other since day one.

-P

The thank you button was not enough LOL, thank you

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MiniP View Post
some of the earliest human remains ever found had bits of stone and wood fragments in the bones indicating that they were killed/injured by early types of weapons... humans have been killing each other since day one.

-P

We can strive for better. I don't want my kid gunned down during class. Hobbies << Life.

"It does not matter how slowly you go, as long as you do not stop." Confucius
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I think major problem with guns is that they enable you to kill LOT of ppl, this is not to say ppl will not kill each other without guns. In little comical way its like ordinary human suddenly wearing Iron man equipment and having no control over it.

There was just incident in my country where in local temple offering food which is given to every person who visits temple was poisoned by some guy from different religion. (I'll be little politically correct here and not take name of the religion but you get the point)

People are capable of lot of horrible things, no doubt they will do it without the guns also but guns just make it really really easy, just like poison and it should be restricted if not banned completely just like poisons.

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We are what we are, and we should strive for better. Yeah we used to beat each others' brains in. Despite technological advances, we still do it, just more efficiently. Gotta know where you've been to know where you're going. There is an underlying problem that needs to be addressed, but nobody wants or knows how to go there yet. Banning guns, or knives, or rocks and sticks is not going to solve it.

OK I'm out

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Once heard this story: deranged, unhappy misfit teenager walks into a school with a rock in his hand...Well, we know how the rest goes, I think.

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Well rocks are now primitive. Just like in the near future guns will be. Yes soon to be antiques, replaced by the all new technology that will be printed with your 3d printer and a few chemicals, parts, etc.... I will then have to listen to my liberal friends cry that those too must be banned!

It's the person, not the weapon.
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Once heard this story: deranged, unhappy misfit teenager walks into a school with a rock in his hand...Well, we know how the rest goes, I think.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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Banning guns, or knives, or rocks and sticks is not going to solve it.

Well that's the million dollar question. US has more guns, and more gun deaths than any other country in the world! Your statement implies that they are unrelated! I think the majority of the WORLD would strongly disagree with you.

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Given right circumstances, everyone is/can be that person.

I wont go as far as to quote studies as there are enough funded by right wingers to put "study" vs honest "researched and presented study" on table, after all its a big industry with lot of money to go around in couple of study production machines. Its little out of scope of this forum settings and my expertise to do so.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/gun-deaths-by-country/

BUT these death numbers are telling a story by themselves, unless someone truly believes that rest of the world like Asian countries are much more civilized in terms of "violent tendencies" even in catalytic violent inducive environment, now is it?
Hint: Far from it, one of the many wrong racially associated traits based on small and select sample size. Its a quite a wild wild east here, I can attest on personal experience that on an average "probably" first world population is much more docile than what you see in third world altercations.

So how to deal with the problem?
Its just lot more easier and sensible to cut off supply rather than putting everyone in therapy. And latter is not even option in majority of the world. I'm not really liberal, but I do think there is something called value of life lost, it far exceeds value of guns to society.

As for the 3D printer possible epidemic, liberals will eventually get there too, just need to take one little good step at a time, starting with guns.

Just food for thought, if it was just "person" that was an issue, there wont be legal prohibitions on ammunition type even in wild wild west.
https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2016/09/bullet-control-what-types-of-ammunition-are-illegal.html

Clearly, someone somewhere in right side also thinks it causes more deaths and much more violent ones then otherwise, so why stop there and not cut the entire rotten tree?

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people are dangerous. Don't give them guns.

So are drugs. They're also illegal yet somehow we have a huge drug problem not only in American but around the world.

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So are drugs. They're also illegal yet somehow we have a huge drug problem not only in American but around the world.



Imagination can make us happy. So many miserable people in the rich west hooked on opioids. Terrible. People are miserable and unhappy, don't give them drugs, give them hope and a means to be creative.

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. And latter is not even option in majority of the world. I'm not really liberal, but I do think there is something called value of life lost, it far exceeds value of guns to society.

I think you brought up a good point, we really have lost the value of life. So many of us have become desensitized to death and killing. Its everywhere on the internet, death has become just another thing. Some would blame video games some will blame movies but regardless of who/what you blame its the entire human race who would most likely walk right past some one dying/dead on the side of the road, and if they do stop it won't be out of good intentions it would be because they want to post the picture of there website/social media and get clicks/likes.

Maybe we need more religion in schools and at home, I for one am not the most religious but can see the benefits if religion is used in a positive form. But on the other hand religion can be a very negative thing, look at the middle east and centuries of wars fought because you believe in something else then i do.

I think in 1000 years if this rock still holds life on it, people are going to look back and think we are all crazy for all the killing and horrible things humans do to each other.

-P

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MiniP View Post
I think you brought up a good point, we really have lost the value of life. So many of us have become desensitized to death and killing. Its everywhere on the internet, death has become just another thing. Some would blame video games some will blame movies but regardless of who/what you blame its the entire human race who would most likely walk right past some one dying/dead on the side of the road, and if they do stop it won't be out of good intentions it would be because they want to post the picture of there website/social media and get clicks/likes.

Maybe we need more religion in schools and at home, I for one am not the most religious but can see the benefits if religion is used in a positive form. But on the other hand religion can be a very negative thing, look at the middle east and centuries of wars fought because you believe in something else then i do.

I think in 1000 years if this rock still holds life on it, people are going to look back and think we are all crazy for all the killing and horrible things humans do to each other.

-P

On the contrary, religion will not help but make it worse (like you mentioned on negative side, it will be like introducing one evil to fight another, we don't need that), again I've some experience with it due to living in country that's overloaded with all the religions in the world. For purpose of not offending anyone I will not get into religion based debate, but if you go look into history majority of mass murders have happened in name of religion and it even beats race in that area, even if real objective was just expanding territory, they rallied public sentiment using religion. So, logically speaking being a religious person won't suddenly make you less involved in crime and more helpful to needy, maybe if you want to convert someone but alas, that's not really helping.

Anyways, real point is, what we are lacking as a society is empathy or only have selective sympathy, now why we are lacking that is different level of debate and I do not think there is any solution to lacking empathy, its side effect of having rational and selfish lifestyles and helping others can be hard too. In my part of the world if you see someone getting run over by car and stop and take him/her to hospital, you will be in for ride. Likely you will spend almost entire day explaining yourself to first doctors and then police, that stops people from being helpful and empathetic to others.

Lack of empathy can be quite evident in everyone's daily life styles and it decreases slowly till you do something about it on personal level, don't think I'm making much sense atm but it makes perfect sense in my head
Just look at this example, right now there is guy in power in worlds strongest country whom not committing a crime on daily basis will be a surprise and he got to power based on silly things like "building a wall" to stop other people in need coming to his country, even though wall does absolutely nothing about it, but it has still garnered him support from masses, who are knowing/unknowingly completely lacking empathy towards "others" and this particular bunch is also on an average more religious kind.

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On the contrary, religion will not help but make it worse (like you mentioned on negative side, it will be like introducing one evil to fight another, we don't need that), again I've some experience with it due to living in country that's overloaded with all the religions in the world. For purpose of not offending anyone I will not get into religion based debate, but if you go look into history majority of mass murders have happened in name of religion and it even beats race in that area, even if real objective was just expanding territory, they rallied public sentiment using religion. So, logically speaking being a religious person won't suddenly make you less involved in crime and more helpful to needy, maybe if you want to convert someone but alas, that's not really helping.

Anyways, real point is, what we are lacking as a society is empathy or only have selective sympathy, now why we are lacking that is different level of debate and I do not think there is any solution to lacking empathy, its side effect of having rational and selfish lifestyles and helping others can be hard too. In my part of the world if you see someone getting run over by car and stop and take him/her to hospital, you will be in for ride. Likely you will spend almost entire day explaining yourself to first doctors and then police, that stops people from being helpful and empathetic to others.

Lack of empathy can be quite evident in everyone's daily life styles and it decreases slowly till you do something about it on personal level, don't think I'm making much sense atm but it makes perfect sense in my head
Just look at this example, right now there is guy in power in worlds strongest country whom not committing a crime on daily basis will be a surprise and he got to power based on silly things like "building a wall" to stop other people in need coming to his country, even though wall does absolutely nothing about it, but it has still garnered him support from masses, who are knowing/unknowingly completely lacking empathy towards "others" and this particular bunch is also on an average more religious kind.

I would have to say that we are both from two very different countries ( assuming your from india ) and even though we are very different we both have similar problems and it boils down to the person. I dont think religion would solve anything but if we could some how take a modern approach to religion.. EX be kind to your neighbor, help others, do unto others as you would do to your self ect ect it would help. But the problem with religion is it hasn't be updated in centuries so we still have people living a life style that is so unrealistic but they are doing so because some one 10000 years ago wrote down on a piece of wood how to do x y z.

Would it solve all the problems .. hell no, no one action will solve anything. But its a starting point.

Now to your wall comment, I really never understood why people were against a wall. Its kinda like saying we wont prosecute drunk drivers because they can always just hop in a car and do it again so why waste our time. Now with that being said I do think a wall would stop some but defiantly not all, if theirs a will theirs a way. BUT i also think the USA needs to find a way to better let people into this country, we are a country of immigrants and that is what makes this country great but we cant have the process take 4 years and costs thousands of dollars and then ask our selves why people sneak into this country. If i needed to get out of mexico I sure as hell am not going to wait 4 years for someone to process my paper work. With that being said I'd be all about raising our taxes a smidge to help people get into this country a little faster BUT i wouldn't want it done in a half ass type of way and not really vent people.

-P

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
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I think you brought up a good point, we really have lost the value of life. So many of us have become desensitized to death and killing. Its everywhere on the internet, death has become just another thing.

Thanks P, this is the "underlying problem" I was referring to.

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Just food for thought, if it was just "person" that was an issue, there wont be legal prohibitions on ammunition type even in wild wild west.
https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2016/09/bullet-control-what-types-of-ammunition-are-illegal.html

Some of the ammo in that link was very interesting.

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I would have to say that we are both from two very different countries ( assuming your from india ) and even though we are very different we both have similar problems and it boils down to the person. I dont think religion would solve anything but if we could some how take a modern approach to religion.. EX be kind to your neighbor, help others, do unto others as you would do to your self ect ect it would help. But the problem with religion is it hasn't be updated in centuries so we still have people living a life style that is so unrealistic but they are doing so because some one 10000 years ago wrote down on a piece of wood how to do x y z.

Would it solve all the problems .. hell no, no one action will solve anything. But its a starting point.

Now to your wall comment, I really never understood why people were against a wall. Its kinda like saying we wont prosecute drunk drivers because they can always just hop in a car and do it again so why waste our time. Now with that being said I do think a wall would stop some but defiantly not all, if theirs a will theirs a way. BUT i also think the USA needs to find a way to better let people into this country, we are a country of immigrants and that is what makes this country great but we cant have the process take 4 years and costs thousands of dollars and then ask our selves why people sneak into this country. If i needed to get out of mexico I sure as hell am not going to wait 4 years for someone to process my paper work. With that being said I'd be all about raising our taxes a smidge to help people get into this country a little faster BUT i wouldn't want it done in a half ass type of way and not really vent people.

-P

I think we agree on this on most parts, but you seem to be attributing somethings to religion that can and do exist without it, so my view (in little humorous ways) is that no amount of upgrading that windows XP will make it windows 10 anymore and its not really needed when what we really secretly want is actually Linux which promotes freedom as well as responsibility.

About the wall, well I'm not from US so I wont criticize it too much, but I can tell you this, there is one barbwire wall between India and Bangladesh, its there for quite a few years due to millions (not at all kidding about that number) of Bangladeshi citizens sneaking into India, sometimes just to buy petrol and going back and sometimes to get Indian documents with help of local scummy politician or their religious support group which promotes increasing their population to be majority in region.

But that Barbwire hasn't helped, what has helped however is two countries seating together and solving their little territorial dispute and having mutually beneficial economic policies which have kick started Bangladeshi industries, in tern producing jobs in their own country rather than they coming here for jobs. I'm not saying the issue is solved, but that's much more appropriate way to do it than just to have barbwire there and expect it to do anything, people were literally crossing it to save few pennies over petrol so you can imagine how even little motivation can produce that required amount of will to do that to walls.

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So are drugs. They're also illegal yet somehow we have a huge drug problem not only in American but around the world.

I don't understand your comment?

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I think we agree on this on most parts, but you seem to be attributing somethings to religion that can and do exist without it, so my view (in little humorous ways) is that no amount of upgrading that windows XP will make it windows 10 anymore and its not really needed when what we really secretly want is actually Linux which promotes freedom as well as responsibility.

About the wall, well I'm not from US so I wont criticize it too much, but I can tell you this, there is one barbwire wall between India and Bangladesh, its there for quite a few years due to millions (not at all kidding about that number) of Bangladeshi citizens sneaking into India, sometimes just to buy petrol and going back and sometimes to get Indian documents with help of local scummy politician or their religious support group which promotes increasing their population to be majority in region.

But that Barbwire hasn't helped, what has helped however is two countries seating together and solving their little territorial dispute and having mutually beneficial economic policies which have kick started Bangladeshi industries, in tern producing jobs in their own country rather than they coming here for jobs. I'm not saying the issue is solved, but that's much more appropriate way to do it than just to have barbwire there and expect it to do anything, people were literally crossing it to save few pennies over petrol so you can imagine how even little motivation can produce that required amount of will to do that to walls.

in regards to your wall comment, thats basically what the USA has at many of the crossing points and it does nothing so wouldn't upgrading to something much more sturdy and more defensive have a positive outcome for the the side defending? It would, like i said before you will never stop everyone from crossing but its ment to be a deterrent. Now mexicans & americans can cross the boarder to get things as long as they go through a port of entry and have the proper paper work. Thousands do and do it properly. I my self use to cross all the time when i traveled for work. Walls help now how much will they help who knows.

Now to religion I think we will have to agree to disagree. Like i said before Im not a very religious person but can see the benefits of taking a modern approach to religion. I for one think religion was only meant to be used as a "gudieline" on how to be a good person and it ended up turning into a huge mess. I for one cannot understand why you would hate someone due to the fact your man/woman in the sky said they are bad 10000 years ago and now in modern times you still hate that group. To me its very archaic and pointless

I also think people are no longer willing to debate with others, I for one have had many of my views changed because I try to go into each conversation with an open mind and if "you" have valid points supported by facts and not your feelings then i am all for it.

-P

"Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie"-Miyamoto Musashi
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in regards to your wall comment, thats basically what the USA has at many of the crossing points and it does nothing so wouldn't upgrading to something much more sturdy and more defensive have a positive outcome for the the side defending? It would, like i said before you will never stop everyone from crossing but its ment to be a deterrent. Now mexicans & americans can cross the boarder to get things as long as they go through a port of entry and have the proper paper work. Thousands do and do it properly. I my self use to cross all the time when i traveled for work. Walls help now how much will they help who knows.

Now to religion I think we will have to agree to disagree. Like i said before Im not a very religious person but can see the benefits of taking a modern approach to religion. I for one think religion was only meant to be used as a "gudieline" on how to be a good person and it ended up turning into a huge mess. I for one cannot understand why you would hate someone due to the fact your man/woman in the sky said they are bad 10000 years ago and now in modern times you still hate that group. To me its very archaic and pointless

I also think people are no longer willing to debate with others, I for one have had many of my views changed because I try to go into each conversation with an open mind and if "you" have valid points supported by facts and not your feelings then i am all for it.

-P

This I agree too, religion was just social code of conduct in ancient world before we started writing down constitutions.

I don't think we disagree on anything other than some personal views that are too personal to be debated about, after all free societies also allow everyone to practice their own religion

However, most of the times that freedom/right is abused due to lack of empathy towards others who don't want to be involved with religion, but still there is no burning need on my side to change anyone's inclination to that, I just want to point out that living harmonious and well cultured full of empathy life is possible without religion also, in fact two have very little to no correlation. I'll give one similar example, Cast System, it started out as passing down your skills to your next generation as there was no public schooling systems there to learn them outside in ancient India, unless you were born in extremely wealthy family who could hire scholars to teach your kid personally, eventually it became cruel practice of discrimination, which is still one of the biggest social problems here even though now "passing your skills to your children" is hardly ever seen, in fact children actively avoid getting into same things as their parents far more than otherwise. Point here being that now humanity has evolved enough that cast system is now rendered useless even in its original intended purpose, but still the evil it left behind lives on, in fact creating new evils.

Take for example, most people assume Yoga is part of Hindu religion, but in reality Yoga is just part of Hindu culture and Hindu is not even real name of religion, its name of region and name of that religion is "Sanatan Dharma". I've been practitioner of Yoga since I was 7 years old but not Hindu religion (Sanatan Dharma), because those are not codependent practices, they exist seperatly and always have been two different sub parts of "Culture" rather than Yoga being sub part of Religion.

More or less, what you are suggesting is to upgrade Sanatan Dharma to promote yoga, my view is that just promote Yoga directly. Promoting and upgrading Sanatan Dharma is LOT harder and complicated for various reasons, especially when other "religions" consider it down right pagan sh*t, I would rather not get into that territory all together and just use Yoga to improve my life and move on

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Well that's the million dollar question. US has more guns, and more gun deaths than any other country in the world! Your statement implies that they are unrelated! I think the majority of the WORLD would strongly disagree with you.

Your statement makes me sound like a blood thirsty gun proponent! LOL... I'll go on record as saying I'm not even an enthusiast. I have a 12 gauge shotgun, a .22, and a .45, but we live waaaay out in the sticks and have need for such things. Lots of wild critters running around in the woods, some of them dangerous. Not to mention that if you have need to call the cops out here, it's too late. To me, they are necessary tools.

Of course I know that's not the case for most people. My statement may have implied something if taken out of context, but I never said any such thing. My full comment was only to point out that a total ban might be a band-aid fix at best, ignoring the root of the problem which we as westerners are so prone to doing, and would likely have unforeseen and long lasting consequences.

Dating myself here, but when I was going to high school kids had gun racks in the back window of their pickup trucks, replete with guns no less! I wasn't one of them, but it was never a problem. I know my little story is only anecdotal, but something has changed and it's not the guns.

Appreciate the lively and thoughtful discussion guys. And yoga is awesome.

Edit: I also wanted to add that I am sympathetic to the situation; it is truly a sad state of affairs and I hope we can find some way to sort it out without having to relinquish even more of our personal freedoms, but that seems to be the path that we are on these days and, barring some unforeseen wave of common sense and compassion, I unfortunately don't have a lot of faith that we will.

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