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The planet, the environment, war - For Real Discussion
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The planet, the environment, war - For Real Discussion

  #1 (permalink)
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The planet, the environment, war - For Real Discussion

If you got banned from the other thread feel free to comment here.

Because I can't comment on the thread and respond properly:


Quoting 
tt gave a quick stat 20 years - but no supporting calculations is it right or wrong and what assumptions?
More endless debate and more dragging the topic into the alleyway and mugging it.
For tt to say "wind is dead" is wrong a lie and playing into the the planetary destructionist delaying tactics.
T Boone Pickens who made his fortune in the Oil business decided a decade ago to get into the wind business.

My stats come from a company who manufactured wind towers for T Boone Pickens. They both have gotten out of the wind game because it was a boondoggle. They lost large amounts of money. There was a rush to create large wind fields and towers. But the actual cost of creating the towers ballooned.

T. Boone Pickens: 'I've Lost My A--' in Wind Power - 'The Jobs Are in the Oil and Gas Industry'

Pickens lost his Billionaire status because of failed wind investments.

I find it funny that someone post a different angle and your first decision is to just ignore that poster. Don't worry I don't need to post in your thread with someone who is unwilling for open and active discourse. @PandaWarrior don't question him he doesn't like that.

Now on to the 20yr recoup: WindPower Profitability and Break Even Point Calculations

From that link:


Quoting 
Therefore, the Break Even Point in our example is 24.05 years. As you can see here, when you have a product life of 20 years, your product will have paid for itself after 24.05 years.

I have no problem with people who want to save the world. I can get behind that, but I am sick of people who hide behind crap facts and get pissed when someone has a different idea or opinion.

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Not sure how you knew I was banned from his thread but I think its funny that anyone that disagrees with the tree hugger radicals are automatically anti human race.....out to kill everyone.....

Funny thing is this; I am actually looking to be convinced by people that aren't wild eyed radicals...people that can actually engage in conflicting debate.....so far I can only find people on "my side" of the argument. It does seem the "deniers" are really the open minded ones....

Its really to bad because I really believe we do need to move from fossil fuels in some way.....but absolutely no one will stick around long enough in both this forum and in the college classes I've taken or any other format I've tried to engage in to really discuss details with me.

For instance.....warming trends are measurable.....but the devils in the details.....there are many monitoring stations that have had huts built over them to keep the cold weather out....or were once in more rural areas but with the urban sprawl, now are in parking lots or next to fences or tall buildings....all of which retain heat much more than the field it used to be in....are these kinds of things being accounted for in the data? And this is just one of many many issues that are present in the environmentalist arguments.

When I bring things like this up, I end up on an ignore list or get lectured in front of a room full of students.......its so disheartening to have a discussion with a closed minded radical.....they just close their ears and shout louder.....

I love the idea of an electric car, or my house being power independent using various methodologies but so far no one has convinced me of the efficacy of the alternatives.....especially when the open pit mining required to obtain the lithium for the batteries leaves such a huge scar on the earth.....

I am open to honest debate but being put on an ignore list because I ask a simple question is small minded and only reinforces the dishonesty I find in the radical environmental crowd.....bring honesty to the table and a willingness to discuss the negative aspects of your position and I will listen....but if all you want to do is call me an environmental hater because I have questions, then you are contributing to the problem....because people like me will never listen to people like you.....which is one reason the radicals make so little headway with doubters. Don't hide from your issues, we certainly don't.

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And one of the most beautiful harbors in the world.....

Copenhagen Denmark, one of the most environmentally sensitive countries in the world......and they do this to their pristine ocean in the name of the environment.

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Difference between him and I is I have seen them being made. I am all for green energy and alternative ways of doing stuff. I just find it funny that such 'open minded' people are so closed minded when it comes to a difference of opinion.

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These are tower sections being manufactured at one of my clients fabs here in Texas. I believe these towers were part of Picken's wind farm out in Sweetwater, Texas near Abilene.

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Problem #1 for electric cars are tires. It still takes 4 tires to run an electric car, it takes 7 gallons of oil to manufacture 1 tire. So 7 x 4 = 28 gallons of oil for a set of tires. Most tires last 1-2 yrs driving (30K-60K miles).

http://www.rma.org/about-rma/rubber-faqs/

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PandaWarrior View Post
Not sure how you knew I was banned from his thread but I think its funny that anyone that disagrees with the tree hugger radicals are automatically anti human race.....out to kill everyone.....

Funny thing is this; I am actually looking to be convinced by people that aren't wild eyed radicals...people that can actually engage in conflicting debate.....so far I can only find people on "my side" of the argument. It does seem the "deniers" are really the open minded ones....

Its really to bad because I really believe we do need to move from fossil fuels in some way.....but absolutely no one will stick around long enough in both this forum and in the college classes I've taken or any other format I've tried to engage in to really discuss details with me.

For instance.....warming trends are measurable.....but the devils in the details.....there are many monitoring stations that have had huts built over them to keep the cold weather out....or were once in more rural areas but with the urban sprawl, now are in parking lots or next to fences or tall buildings....all of which retain heat much more than the field it used to be in....are these kinds of things being accounted for in the data? And this is just one of many many issues that are present in the environmentalist arguments.

When I bring things like this up, I end up on an ignore list or get lectured in front of a room full of students.......its so disheartening to have a discussion with a closed minded radical.....they just close their ears and shout louder.....

I love the idea of an electric car, or my house being power independent using various methodologies but so far no one has convinced me of the efficacy of the alternatives.....especially when the open pit mining required to obtain the lithium for the batteries leaves such a huge scar on the earth.....

I am open to honest debate but being put on an ignore list because I ask a simple question is small minded and only reinforces the dishonesty I find in the radical environmental crowd.....bring honesty to the table and a willingness to discuss the negative aspects of your position and I will listen....but if all you want to do is call me an environmental hater because I have questions, then you are contributing to the problem....because people like me will never listen to people like you.....which is one reason the radicals make so little headway with doubters. Don't hide from your issues, we certainly don't.

I figured once I was banned, you were out too.

I am with you, I would like to have an honest discussion on what we can do to save the planet. Is pollution bad, yes, is fracking bad, yes, is the climate changing, yes. But how and why? And what can we really do to change that? Me recycling (which I do) here isn't gonna keep China from dumping toxic waste into the ocean.

Once I can afford one, I will buy a Tesla and gladly drive it.

But I am with you, I am sick of being ignored because I ask a question or pose a different angle that doesn't fit their boxed way of thinking.

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tturner86 View Post
Problem #1 for electric cars are tires. It still takes 4 tires to run an electric car, it takes 7 gallons of oil to manufacture 1 tire. So 7 x 4 = 28 gallons of oil for a set of tires. Most tires last 1-2 yrs driving (30K-60K miles).

Rubber FAQs

In truth I think the radicals just want all the human race to go back to being hunter gathers with about 2/3rds of the population we have now.....

Now that I think about it, I once was on the city council with a radical environmentalist....funny thing was, he worked in the oil and gas industry before he retired.....as an environmental engineer...so a pretty smart guy....and he belonged to an organization that was both large and world wide that advocated reducing the population by exactly that....and by any means necessary....not sure how the selection process worked but I'm sure I would have been in the 66% slotted for "reduction". lol...I wish I could remember what the name of the organization was, I looked them up at the time and was pretty frightened by the transparency of their agenda.

This radical and I actually got along pretty well. He was informed enough about his position to discuss it rationally without resorting to shouting about it. And I was dumbfounded enough by his positions to just sit there and not say anything too inflammatory! lol

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I think part of the problem with the discussion of oil is that most people equate it simply with production of Gasoline and Oil itself for the purposes of fuel.

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I look at this and I see 70% of a barrel of oil goes into gasoline, diesel fuel and home heating.

So I appreciate the calculation on making a set of tires... being 28 gallons of oil as @tturner86

One barrel of oil is 42 gallons of oil which can produce about 19 gallons of gasoline so 28 gallons of oil is roughly equivalent to 28/42 * 19 = 12.66 gallons of gasoline to produce....which is common to both gas and electric cars.


I think @tturner86 is a little conservative on tire life... remember the 5 year/50,000 mile warranty slogan used at one time.

How Long Do Tires Last? - KickingTires

The above reference suggests 5 years is the expected lifetime of a set of tires and that sounds about right...most people put about 10,000 to 20,000 km per year of driving and that would relate to about 50,000 - 100,000km per 5 years.

So let us take an average of 75,000 km....

in metric terms we rate a motor vehicle's fuel consumption in litres/100km. Of course this will vary with the vehical but let us take a reasonably fuel efficient car of today at 10 litres/100km

so for the five years at 75,000km this will require 7,500 litres of gasoline or 7,500 X .2642 = 1981.5 US gallons

or the equivalent of roughly 100 barrels of oil (one barrel yields 19 gallons of gasoline).

Conclusion:

I would expect that a gasoline powered car and an electric powered car would use similar quality tires, and use about the same plastic components so they cancel themselves out in my opinion...though in fairness I have not been able to check this out.

I know that you can go around the twist comparing costs of production of the batteries, the cars themselves and other associated parts and services as well as generation of the power source.

But the calculation I have shown shows that in 5 years, on average by going electric we save 100 barrels of oil for other uses for every 5 years for each gasoline powered car on the road..

The cost of producing the electricity in terms of oil volume would be reduced by using non-fossil fuel sources....I hate wind farms personally...they are a blight on the land and the noise pollution from them is now just being recognized as well as the bird kill count. Solar energy to me is relatively benign...and if I owned a property I would have solar power supplying my needs (I wonder how much it would cost to charge your electric vehicle using a home solar setup...that would be sweet IMHO.

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....I hate wind farms personally...they are a blight on the land and the noise pollution from them is now just being recognized as well as the bird kill count...

My favourite sight is when they are all stationary, huddled together in a large pack and whispering "Don't Move!, if nobody moves they can't see us."

That happens a lot on many beautiful sites over here where is no wind but lots of land rental and finance lease profits.

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ratfink View Post
My favourite sight is when they are all stationary, huddled together in a large pack and whispering "Don't Move!, if nobody moves they can't see us."

That happens a lot on many beautiful sites over here where is no wind but lots of land rental and finance lease profits.

I visit my son in Redlands California and to get there I fly to Palm Springs then drive up Interstate 10. It passes through a small indian reservation along the way. The land looks like it has absolutely no commercial agriculture viability but the interstate was following down a valley and there was a choke point in one area. Almost, as far as the eye could see on both sides of the road there were wind mill towers. It looked from a distance like you were driving into a WWII bomber raid as you approached it. It was a bit unnerving the first time I went through the area.

I am sure that this was a boon for the residents of that reservation, economically, as it was arid desert otherwise but it looked ugly to me. So I was sort of torn because of my hate of wind farms but understood the need for this parched reservation land to develop some income from it.

I suppose one of the problems with solar panels is the relatively low electrical output/per panel compared to a wind turbine. So as far as contributing to the massive electricity grid the wind farms are more effective. But on an individual basis, a friend of mine has a cottage and they set up a 2 panel system and it powers their refrigerator, lights. and some electrical appliances very nicely. I can imagine placing a series of panels on the south facing roof of a home and becoming virtually off the grid, home heating aside but I have ideas for that too...if I lived on a small acreage {sigh}

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