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The planet, the environment, war - For Real Discussion


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The planet, the environment, war - For Real Discussion

  #11 (permalink)
 
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 ratfink 
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I am sure that this was a boon for the residents of that reservation, economically, as it was arid desert otherwise but it looked ugly to me. So I was sort of torn because of my hate of wind farms but understood the need for this parched reservation land to develop some income from it.

Agreed, especially if they were also happy. Good economic use of technology and resources, natural or man-made, always gets my vote, so long as the communal costs and desires are also totted up properly, a rare event.

These days it's hard enough to work out what makes sense in an Alice in Wonderland funny print farm where the price mechanism for everything has broken down, let alone do it in a gaudy political corruption nightmare where the main agendas of all camps are driven by vote-getting, tax-raising and rent-seeking.

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  #12 (permalink)
 
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 tturner86 
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If you've been banned in other thread, please feel free to discuss the environment here. The world is dying and there are stupid people on both sides of the argument.

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 PandaWarrior 
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@aquarian1

Its this kind of dialogue that turns people like me off....people that are real seekers but aren't fully convinced and actually have legitimate questions but get screamed at instead...and then banned from the discussion....

Calling people names doesn't win people to your cause.....and being called an environmentalist ought to be a compliment if you are as committed as you say you are.....

as you mentioned in your closed to only the converted thread, its actions that speak louder than words....and while your words are quite loud, your actions are even louder....the refusal to engage in legitimate debate signals the weakness of your arguments.





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  #14 (permalink)
jmj858
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Boy that aquarian1 is quite a piece of work. He just banned me...and I'm a newby just trying to get a handle on things around here. Appears he just doesn't have enough confidence in his position on global warming to engage folks with different opinions.

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  #15 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
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jmj858 View Post
Boy that aquarian1 is quite a piece of work. He just banned me...and I'm a newby just trying to get a handle on things around here. Appears he just doesn't have enough confidence in his position on global warming to engage folks with different opinions.

@aquarian1 's problem is that everything is black and white. The truth is that the situations are many shades of grey.

Can you imagine a world without oil??? I cannot.... I can imagine a world without gasoline and diesel fuel but oil still plays a huge factor in our lives beyond just fuel.

Those light weight components in cars are basically plastics, take a look around and see how much plastics play in our everyday life...the suddenly abandon plastics would place a huge burden on other resources such as trees which are considered renewable but with the way the planet grows so quickly in population the demand on the forests will be even greater. I for one, HATE seeing clear cut logging that has gone on in the Rocky Mountains...you fly over and see what looks like a giant razor shaving mountains of their trees....imagine the situation where the demand for wood products doubled or tripled because of the loss of plastics.

And the world won't fall apart if Oil reserves disappeared since coal can be broken down into components for plastic production. So coal, is not an evil either when used properly. Burning sulfur coal is a bad thing causing acid rain but I saw articles where coal could be used directly to produce electricity with using a special type of fuel cell

It is not commercially viable yet but it is being researched

A comprehensive review of direct carbon fuel cell technology

https://str.llnl.gov/str/June01/Cooper.html

There are solutions to environmental problems IMHO but shutting down processes before viable alternatives are available is not the answer....wind farms can be a solution in some areas for electricity for example but I would hate to see such farms everywhere I turn...the loss of birds and wildlife would be devastating...not to mention the noise problems when such farms encroach on populated areas...it is hard to fine a hard science document on the subject but I know that I cannot sleep if there is a dripping tap in the apartment...the throbbing sound of a nearby turbine would drive me crazy.

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  #16 (permalink)
 
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 ratfink 
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There is only one problem. The P(opulation) word that nobody will talk about. And the solution is not culling or indoctrination, it's just education, free, open, honest and available to all.

That's the only thing that slows down baby production, increases quality of life for all and helps to start putting limits on resource over-utilisation in the long run. But that's not good for tax flows or news headlines, so that won't work, bugger.

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  #17 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
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ratfink View Post
There is only one problem. The P(opulation) word that nobody will talk about. And the solution is not culling or indoctrination, it's just education, free, open, honest and available to all.

That's the only thing that slows down baby production, increases quality of life for all and helps to start putting limits on resource over-utilisation in the long run. But that's not good for tax flows or news headlines, so that won't work, bugger.

Yes, population overload is the world's problem but even there the situation is not black/white. In poor countries, and in the not so recent past in farming communities, your offspring was your labour force and ultimately your social security as you age.

You only have to look at problems in China when it had its "one child policy" in an effort to control its population. Female children were being aborted in favour of having a son, as a son could look after them in old age and be more of a contributor to the family income. Now you have an imbalance of males/females to the point that poor men have little chance to marry in a lot of cases.

You cannot just mandate such policies....and you are correct that education can help as well as family consoling as to birth control...but that does not solve the poverty and need for a family income in agrarian countries.

In Canada and the USA, which are by most benchmarks well educated, decent wages and quality of life, we have a great deal of trouble attracting workers to work on farms and agriculture in general. The local populations feel the work is beneath them, even if they cannot get other jobs...

The USA may decry the migrant labour that flows across the border from Mexico...but where would Californian and other states be without that cheap labour...mechanization can only go so far and I would hate to see all food being factory food. Canadian farmers similarly require migrant labour for their farms. They are more controlled here as they don't flow across the us/Canada border...but they are still required.

I am rambling here but suffice it to say that population growth is not a simple... 2.1 children/family solution, and the issues vary with the country, its GPD, and resources.

Personally coming from a science background, I liken the Earth to an agar plate onto which a dot of bacteria is placed in the center of the medium. Place it in a nice warm environment and the bacteria soon grows to fill the agar plate...it knows no control and when it fills the plate it feeds off itself and causes decay.

My worry about the earth is not terrorism, nuclear apocalypse... though regionally there are problem areas...but the real leveler will be disease... so far we have been lucky... terrible diseases like Ebola and SARS are a wake-up call to me...thankfully they are hard to pass from person to person...the day we get a similar disease that incubates for 5 days and is passed through a simple cough .... that will be the day of reckoning for the earth.

Will the earth recover? of course it will...as it has done for millions and millions of years. Would man recover?? yes too, probably but it would be a very different life.

And over population is what will lead to that disease problem....not an easy problem to solve...somehow the first step has to be to bring everyone to the same level economically and I doubt that will be happening.

I am not very coherent in this rant but that is me

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  #18 (permalink)
 
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 ratfink 
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I am not very coherent in this rant but that is me

No, you weren't. I prefer your chart analyses.

All I said was education available for all - to make their own choices.

Then they nearly always choose quality of life, that's why Europe has the opposite problem, declining population. The problem solves itself eventually, if enough people are allowed to make their own choices instead of having *any* foisted on them.

Ultimately of course Heraclitus and Spengler are right, but I was trying to avoid saying that.

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  #19 (permalink)
 Underexposed 
Calgary Alberta/Canada
 
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ratfink View Post
No, you weren't. I prefer your chart analyses.

All I said was education available for all - to make their own choices.

Then they nearly always choose quality of life, that's why Europe has the opposite problem, declining population. The problem solves itself eventually, if enough people are allowed to make their own choices instead of having *any* foisted on them.

hahaha...I did not mean my comments to be against yours at all.

it was just that it is so hard to make that population adjustment to control increases because population is not a static, rather it is an ebb and flow that depends on the region of the earth.

I wonder if declining population in Europe is a good or bad thing. You also suffer from immigration issues similar to the USA/Mexico with north African/Turks immigrating to perform jobs thought too menial for many Europeans. I laugh at people who complain at immigrants taking jobs away from locals when the locals will not ever consider doing those jobs...but then we are a bit different in Canada...we need immigration to grow economically. For the most part immigrants are not seen as the threat that they are in other countries....but then we are not faced with being overrun either.

PS: I am glad you like my chart analyses.... the markets are taking a really bad correction here now. I have taken almost 1/2 of my positions to cash right now and probably more if more stop loss targets trip. For the first time in my life I might consider putting money into a bear ETF if this keeps up {sigh}

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  #20 (permalink)
 
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hahaha...I did not mean my comments to be against yours at all.

I like it when they are anyway, but on these sort of areas any half rational being that does do their own delving into the real science rather than just the politics or the indoctrination will usually come to similar reasonable conclusions, so we are in agreement anyway. Funny that. I know it is an impossible dream but there are no other 'nice' solutions and sadly it looks like one of the usuals (war) is getting another run again now.

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