Drago, In my response to others or for whatever reason, I am free to use Christianity in my discussion if I please. Actually, it is quite applicable as it is in fact quite probable that Judao-Christian values are behind the western healthcare push. It appears you would make religion illegal if you had your druthers, no?
OK everyone, the real question isn't whether or not one is in favor of healthcare or not, the question is who is gonna pay for it and who can best administer it. The reality is that it stands a 100% probability that the govt WILL screw it up and that the govt doesn't have the funding for this buracratic nightmare. If the govt is pulling the strings, it will will determine who gets care, who doesn't, what they will get, and when they get it.......... it has already been decided that the IRS will adminisiter the forced collection of money with it's newly minted 16,000 + taxpayer funded employees. Sheesh, what else do you need to know?
For God sake, google the healthvare bill and start to pick your way through it's 2600+ pages (and that's just the start) , it is my guess is not one of you have. So is essense, you are supporting a cause that you have deemed worthy by it's emotional appeal rather than by facts, good judgement, and common sense.
Nano, with all due respect, that is a very broad application of "pursuit of happiness"
Neither life nor govt can assure that the smorgashboard of conditions and pre-conditions will be satisfied.
There is no doubt that healthcare needs to be addressed, but this politically driven and concieved healthcare bill isn't the answer, it will only make matters worse. Healthcare providers and insurance companies need to come together and find the fix under the watchful eyes of consumer watchdogs and govt oversight. Lawyers would not be allowed to attend.
In response to those who say that tax-funded programs of any kind are a moral imperative, I would like to point out that there is a big difference between an individual responding to compassion by helping other human beings VOLUNTARILY and that same individual being coerced through the use of force to give their money to an entitity that purportedly will use the money to help others. Taxes are not voluntary, they are obtained through the use of force and the threat of force.
When an individul gives money voluntarily to help others, they are engaging in morally virtuous, commendable activity. However if that same individual has their money taken by force, supposedly to help others, its a quite different situaiton. Instead of being a generous moral person, they are just a victim, and those who took their money by force are aggressors.
Personally, I believe in non-aggression, and I do not think its a moral act to steal from one person to give it to another.
Even if you can get 51% of the votors to agree with you , its still immoral.
And don't forget about the VAT (value added tax) that's probably already in the works as we speak. (how else are we gonna pay for it?) I believe most other countries that have VAT (no expert here) pay around 15 to 20%.
So, to put that into perspective, that $200 golf club that cost $217 w/tax (8.5%), will run you about $250 with the added VAT. (15 to 20%)
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Health Care in Canada
This was sent to me by a friend,
I post it here because everyone wants to compare our system to Canada's.
Well there is a slight flaw with the Canadian health care system. They need urgent care facilities. You know a place you can call in and make an appointment for not so emergency stuff. Today after asking a bunch of people what to do as far as the sliced finger goes... they ALL said go to the ER. So I trod up the hill to the general hospital and found the ER. It felt pretty old & dingy. I had to wait for 2hrs for triage. There where security guards that made you sit in chairs in the order that you came in. If one person went in for triage everyone moved one chair to the left. It was almost funny.
It took 2 hrs to get into triage. But while sitting there a guy came in that had somehow run an exacto knife down his thigh and was bleeding pretty badly. He went in right away. They bandaged him up and sent him back out.
So I got in at 2pm. At about 4pm they looked at my finger and the nurse said "did you press the finger tip down hard on the finger?" I said yes - it hurt but we were hoping it would graft back on. She said "good job" and it just might graft on. So back out to the nasty waiting room with complaining old people (oh the staff only spoke French which only served to piss of the Anglophobe old people). At 7pm I call (my husband) and tell him he better take care of the dogs. A bit later they put me in a room. About 7:30 a surgeon comes in to look at my finger.
He said it was an odd angle and odd finger to cut while chopping roots. He complimented us on our "push the finger back together" technique and said that he would have done about the same had I come in that night. He said that the tip of my finger may die and just fall off or it may just graft back on. He said just to wash it with soap and water and keep it bandaged with bandages that can breath.
Then I waited another hour or so for my tetanus shot cause I could not remember my last one... I think it was about 2004 so I was due.
I met a nice couple while in the ER - the young man thought he might be having a heart attach. HE was right behind me in triage but they took him into a room faster. He was still waiting for results when I left. I think his family has some history of heart attacks so he was a bit nervous. I hope he is OK.
R.I.P. Andy Zektzer (ZTR), 1960-2010.
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Thanks fpr the story ztrade, did it fall off???.........sheesh, wonder if they use that same technique if one slices their weener, press hard, hope it grafts and doesn't fall off
It doesn't surprise me that 40-45% of the respondants to the question are in favor of health care reform as most people are sheepish, but I am confounded that they support THIS healthcare bill without knowing what they're getting. It will cost them much more and it will lead to and provide for lesser quality, but appearantly as long as it leads them to something they are satisfied.
Guys, as an outsider I have a different perspective.
We defend the right to healthcare for all provided by the government to the death.
It is only when you go somewhere else eg to the USA that you realise how incredibly valuable it is.
Politically of course it's a ticking bomb - there will never be enough money.Some stats I have seen say it costs approx $4,000 pa per individual.
However the most important sentence is the 2nd one - it is almost universally accepted as a great thing ( not a good thing note) that we have.
It is NOT perfect but as a base line or safety net it just works.
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Apparently Canada aren't too bad, first implant of his own stem cell in the patients in the heart to rebuild faillure coronary artery. This done with the university of montreal and in a month with the university of toronto. The first patient 3 mouth ago was suppose to die are receive a transplatation. Now the patient his getting 50% of his heart. All for the reasearch and free. These type of reasearch will lead too a less costy system and a better one. We have to innove and have a open mind when you want something better.
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Healthcare is ticking time bomb just like pretty much every social program in Canada and the rest of the world. No system can keep up with an aging and increasingly obese society especially with allopathic medicine that only focuses on expensive fixes versus personal responsibility -eat a few vegetables and go for a walk now and then.
I agree riskybiz when the US healthcare bill reads in length like Russian novel there is plenty to be suspicious about. Which begs the question who really writes these things - and does any ever read what they vote on?
In my dream the best solution would be to dissolve all the health insurance plans and return healthcare to a relationship of doctor and patient. Efficiency and competition would bring costs in line. Cosmetic surgery operates that way and that model seems to be working fine.
Unfortunately the only way real change is going to happen is after the whole entitlement system comes crashing down of its own weight. My gut feeling it that it will be sooner than most of us think.
Well, this is a big part of the equation. In Canada the government puts high taxes on tobacco and alcohol as a way to pay the healthcare bill. I guess that's one way to get people a little healthier and force them to save for it.
I always think of America as being so patriotic and the no man left behind image of the military. When you hear this everyman for himself attitude with regard to life and limb of fellow American citizen it really seems to fly against the grain in a very un-American way.
I'm not American, my great something grandfather was, but he became a United Empire Loyalist and went north in the American Revolution, in fact I am technically able to put the letters UEL behind my name but obviously I don't. It's too bad because man I would love to be down South, somewhere nice and warm like Miami!
The only arguments I seem to hear against a health plan for the working class seems to come down to who is paying for it in the tax bill. Well, I don't have time to go into it at length, but basically, you have the FED as the world's central bank, the US is the glue holding the financial 'world' together. And it's a fiat currency to boot. So, in my view, the US can pretty much print money and spend as much as they want for at least another 50 years.... probably at lot longer as I believe the developing world may implode as their resources are completely ravaged.. off subject, but just think China's water table is dropping by a meter a year and it takes 100 to replace and it's almost empty! Despite my views on the US spending ability as provider of currency to the entire developing world, the impression I got from watching the debate about Obama's proposals was that it actually could provide quite a positive impact on the economy, not a drain as the Republicans seem to advocate. There could be a symbiotic relationship putting private and public health care side by side in a two tier private and public system. I think I read somewhere that's what Australia does and their model was being looked at by man governments because of the apparent success it has been. Hoping Canada goes this way too, we are stuck with public only, that is not great, well, for a poor guy like me it is good, but a truly robust and economically vibrant system requires both, I think......
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