with all due respect Gregid, you guys have accepted socialism and conforming to govt mandates, we havn't, and that is what makes us different, not better mind you, just different......... Again, with all due respect, when the rest of the civilized world can offer as much as America in terms of liberty, security, and personal freedoms, then I will start caring what the rest of the civilized world thinks.
I would like to see health care reform, but this bill is just corrupt and bad.
Free-market oriented reforms would be great. Medicine is already a very highly regulated industry and the more regulated it gets, the worse it gets. Just a couple examples:
the AMA. The AMA is just a cartel who artificially restricts the supply of doctors by restricting access to medical schools. Like most cartels, they pretend its 'for the protection of the consumer' but in reality, their goal is only to enrich themselves. As a result we have too few doctors, and many people cannot find affordable treatment in their area.
Why not let nurses or non-doctors set up healthcare businesses in their specialties? For example you could have someone whose only specialty is treating a certain common type of ailment like sprains and minor bruises or scrapes. You don't need a medical degree to handle minor injuries, and it could be done much more cheaply if there weren't any laws requiring an 8 year degree just to treat a sprained ankle.
Or a dental hygenist could set up their own practice and clean teeth for an affordable price. Currently they're not allowed to do this. There has to be a 'licensed' dentist on the premises. As a result a teeth-cleaning often costs $100 or more, when in a free market a dental hygenist could probably charge only $50 for a cleaning and pay themselves better wages at the same time.
Even a single payer system like UK and Canada have would be better than what we have now. At least insurance companies wouldn't be raking off so much of the healthcare money. Right now we have the worst of both worlds: expensive, inefficient, government-regulated healthcare, and insurance companies making large amounts of money while providing no value at all.
So instead of single-payer healthcare or free market health care , we get this awful 'reform' bill that does little to fix the situation, but requires everyone in the country to purchase insurance from these monopolistic insurance companies.
I would like to point out that the reason insurance companies have a near-monopoly is BECAUSE of government regulations around insurance and healthcare, not because of a lack of regulations.
I am as free-market as they come, but health insurance companies as we know them today are not part of a free market at all. They're part of a government-enforced quasi-monopolistic system that is open to only a few large politically connected companies.
And now this new bill forces us all to be their customers.
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It is baffling to me when I hear about personal freedoms in the US as some kind of exception . This is not meant to be argumentative. For your reference, I am in Canada.
For example to start, on the extreme end of things. It is legal here ( Ontario ) for a woman to walk around in public with breasts exposed. In fact full fronal nudity has been on national tv since the 1960s. This kind of freedom of expression is taken for granted here.
Per capita we have <10% ( < 1% in real terms )of the jail population the US has. We have apparently fewer laws to break but somehow less violence. Not that Canadians abhor violence since hockey is about as violent (and stupid btw) a sport as there is.
War reporting is very graphic here. Caskets of fallen soldiers from Afghanistan are very visible and always make the news. The violence of the war is not papered over. Truth is freedom, right?
None of this is meant to suggest Canada is better or that our government isn't just as incompetent as the next . But inspite of all the social welfare programs I can't see where we are less free as individuals. Our personal tax rates ,are actually lower than the US as well. ( I worked in financial planning for years in a border city so I am very familiar with US versus Canadian taxes.)
As an outside observer I would love to understand the freedoms you speak of that make the U.S. different.
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As a United States Citizen, I too would like to know what are people meaning when they say, "don't let them take away our freedom." I keep hearing this (freedom speech)! To what are they pertaining too? That is the big question. What does this health care debate got to do with your freedom. The healthcare bill has passed (and their are somethings that a majority of Americans don't believe in) but has your FREEDOM been taking away NO. So what is it with this freedom talk. Everyone still has insurance (who could afford it) millions more will now have the opportunity(that's it OPPORTUNITY) to purchase insurance so what does that have to do with FREEDOM. Please explain that one. I am one of many, who represents minorities in this country and when debate turns into this type of speech all it does is cause much more confusion, anger, and hate. America is better than that and we shouldn't stoop to the level of childish behavior when it comes to debating in this country. Stand up be a Man or Woman and discuss, debate, and go out a vote for change not fight, argue, and hate.
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2. Liberty of the person from slavery, detention, or oppression.
a. Political independence.
b. Exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty: freedom of assembly.
4. Exemption from an unpleasant or onerous condition: freedom from want.
5. The capacity to exercise choice; free will: We have the freedom to do as we please all afternoon.
6. Ease or facility of movement: loose sports clothing, giving the wearer freedom.
7. Frankness or boldness; lack of modesty or reserve: the new freedom in movies and novels.
a. The right to unrestricted use; full access: was given the freedom of their research facilities.
b. The right of enjoying all of the privileges of membership or citizenship: the freedom of the city.
9. A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference.
One of the many definitions of freedom "the right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference", meaning free from government control or interference. This bill adds more regulation and control by the government, hence giving less freedom to the people. End of story.
Okay, I see your story of Freedom, but what do you tell those 32 million people who will now have health care. Are you going to take away their Freedom of CARE. Is that Freedom now that someones child who has a pre-existing condition now has access to health care? Come on, what are you talking about. Freedom, the answer should be how do we cover all Americans because this bill in my opinion still leaves out those millions of Americans who still cannot and won't be able to have health care. That's so immoral to think otherwise that we debate this as if a human life is worth politics, money, and greed.
I mean we can go on and on about what's wrong and what's right about the bill, but how do we fix it. That's the question?
Drago, You must not be considering the taxes you pay on gas and other consumer goods. Argue if you want but the fact remains, no one has given so much to so many as America has. Moreover, the vast differences in population alone makes your comparison irrelavant and, America took in alot more poor immigrants than Canada has over the past 200 years. Again, with all due respect, if it wasn't for America, Canadians woulldn't be enjoying their libertiies and freedoms. It was American energy and finance that stood against the Soviets. Just one more point, Canadian law has outlawed freedom of speech in churches, is there anything more basic to freedom than that?
Last edited by riskybiz; April 8th, 2010 at 11:56 PM.