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Personal Moral Values and Trading
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Personal Moral Values and Trading

  #21 (permalink)
The fun is in the numbers
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Good or bad

The point was raised that many companies have good and bad qualities and that there are grey areas.

Of course.

I gave a clear cut case of a bad company that terribly abused their Chinese employees. That one tries to hide in grey areas is only simply trying to save yourself from thinking - thinking deeply - about your own moral values. That's fine and most people don't really think deeply about these things.

It just too much effort and strain. We are so conditioned in our society to be superficial that we squirm and riggle and struggle to sidetrack any discussion in a simplfied "Yea" or "Nay". Since I already made the point that it is what you feel is a bad company to sidetrack it into grey-areas is to try to de-rail the thread.

If you can't think of a "bad" company that is "Bad" by your standards then you are OK to invest in any company, and really there was no point even reading the thread Let alone posting in it.

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  #22 (permalink)
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aquarian1 View Post
I would like the thread to be of "one mind" aligned to the one goal of good, goodness and doing good.This would be different from most threads where people are in two camps arguing back and forth. That is not what I have in mind.

....

So others who are of the thinking all that matters is the money. love of mamon is fine, doing bad for money and riches is ok, etc should post in another thread.

see
https://futures.io/off-topic/25079-personal-moral-values-trading.html#post290786

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  #23 (permalink)
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mattz View Post

1. I would like to understand this thread, so this is a debate whether buying a stock or for that matter equity in a given company would constitute a moral or a immoral decision based on their business model?
....
2. I am YET to see one stock that is good all around ethically.

Hi Mattz,

Re#1.
At the first level of understanding, I would rephrase your sentence to :
"If you know that a company is doing something that is clearly "bad" or even "evil" -according to your standards - and you support the company (by buying their stock or products) because it will profit you (or their product is cheaper, better, easier, more in vogue), then you are knowingly working against your own moral or spiritual values.
I wanted to move the thread beyond the first and most basic level to a broader discussion on aligning with the spiritual energy of good and how it can impact your life and the vibrational energy of the planet. (I had hope to move the discussion there is gradual steps and the next one which I covered was the linkage between one's vibrational state and inspiration.)

Re #2.
In a practical sense - for level1 - it is not so much "good all round". It is more an clear strong evidence of "bad" or a clear strong evidence of "good" in your standards.


Here are some examples that I have applied. (These are not meant to be what another applies in their life):

My values include:
1. caring for the environment
2. freedom for people from tyranny
3. fair and just treatment of others


Example 1.
I learned via a PBS documentary, of a company that was helping the police in China find and jail Chinese citizens who were pushing for more open information and democracy. This company created the programs to track and find citizens doing these things on their computers. The company did it for profit and profit alone. The company makes enormous profits without this activity, it international and based in the USA.

For me this is evil. To help the brutal, totalitarian regime put people who are working for a better world in jail for many, many years and cut off the energy for change and betterment of their country - and to do it for unnecessary profits - is evil.

So it doesn't matter to me what other aspects of the company are I won't help them or do business with them to the extend that it is possible. Even if I felt their stock would rise I would never buy it.

Example 2
I learned via a new articles of this company treatment of workers (it was the example of page one worm in the fruit). Even if I felt their stock would rise I would never buy it.

Example 3
I learned that a Cdn based company who is in the construction and engineering business also had a side division (which they didn't talk about and was not disclosed by analysts recommended the stock) to make ammunition. (I believe this ammunition was used by the Indonesian gov't to kill those working for freedom in Timour -but making firearms ammunition is not something I wanted to have in a construction and engineering firm).
Even if I felt their stock would rise I would never buy it.
On a side-note recently (and several years later to the analysts recommendation), the company was convicted of bribery (internationally) to win construction contracts.

When an entity is clearly bad/evil in one aspect I do not help them.


-------
There are so many companies to choose from. To cut out a few outstanding examples of "bad' is not too hard.

Keep your mind in the future, in the now.

Last edited by aquarian1; January 17th, 2013 at 06:37 PM.
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  #24 (permalink)
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mattz View Post
The HLF thing bothers me because the guy who supposedly blew the whistle on them holds a short position of a billion dollars (according to some reports I read)
He knows his power in the media and the extent of his reputation via the firm he built, Pershing.
He is determined to go to congress on that or Supreme Court, not sure what legislation he mentioned.
Translation: Even if he is wrong on the trade, he will muscle his trade to profits.

But, soon they will announce their earning, and he could possibly get the MOASS (mother of all short squeezes)

Wrote this about a month ago, HLF is up now $9 in the after hours.
Ackman has a large short position in this stock and tomorrow could face a real bad short squeeze that could cost him hundreds of millions in losses. Lesson to all us traders: don't fall in love with your positions, and yourself.
This should be all over the news tomorrow...

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Last edited by mattz; February 14th, 2013 at 11:02 PM.
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  #25 (permalink)
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mattz View Post
Wrote this about a month ago, HLF is up now $9 in the after hours.
Ackman has a large short position in this stock and tomorrow could face a real bad short squeeze that could cost him hundreds of millions in losses. Lesson to all us traders: don't fall in love with your positions, and yourself.
This should be all over the news tomorrow...

HLF play is more just a BSD contest at this point, and Carl is going to crush Bill in my opinion. Nothing to do with the stock or any kind of fundamentals at this point.



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  #26 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
HLF play is more just a BSD contest at this point, and Carl is going to crush Bill in my opinion. Nothing to do with the stock or any kind of fundamentals at this point.

Mike

100%. After that thing they had on CNBC that was a circus for the masses, it was quite apparent that Icahn was going to make a move.

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  #27 (permalink)
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Better thread:

https://futures.io/stocks-etfs-trading/19891-hlf-herbalife-ltd.html

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

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6)
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  #28 (permalink)
The fun is in the numbers
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It is natural as traders to focus on profit.

So when one person mentions what they feel as a morally bad company (HFL) the discussion can soon flow to whether the stock will rise or fall. (which is off-topic IMO). This in one reason I didn't mention by name the companies I avoid.

Certainly the thread has not gained much traction in the area I was hoping to generate discussion -aligning your values with your actions in all areas of your life including trading.

Many people know of the famous mutual fund manager Sir John Templeton. His funds attained fame through an impressive long term track record of performance while he was at the helm. Sir John believed that one on the reasons for his success was tithing 10% of his income.

He believed in following his spiritual beliefs in his personal life aligned him with the Good of the Universe. His action of tithing was not based on a belief of payback, I imagine, but rather on conduct alignment with belief structure.

That financial abundance flowed to him as well is more a question of alignment of spiritual values with his daily life.

-------
John Templeton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Philanthropy

As a philanthropist, Templeton established

the John Templeton Foundation;
the Templeton Prize for Progress Toward Research or Discoveries about Spiritual Realities in 1972;
the Templeton Library in Sewanee, Tennessee;
the Templeton College of the University of Oxford (by endowing the Oxford Centre for Management Studies to become a full college of the university having as a focus business and management studies).

Templeton College is now closely associated with Oxford's Saïd Business School. In 2007, Templeton College transferred its executive education program to Saïd Business School. In 2008, Templeton College merged with Green College to form Green Templeton College.[14] This is one of the exceptional mergers in recent history of the University of Oxford.

He was created a Knight Bachelor in 1987 for his philanthropic efforts. Templeton was inducted into the Junior Achievement U.S. Business Hall of Fame in 1996, and in 2003 awarded the William E. Simon Prize for Philanthropic Leadership.

His philanthropic activities had been estimated at over 1 billion US dollars in total.[15]
...
In 2007, Templeton was named one of Time magazine's 100 Most Influential People (Time 100) under the category of "Power Givers." Templeton was given this honor for his "pursuit of spiritual understanding, often through scientific research" through his establishment of the John Templeton Foundation.[16]

Templeton attributed much of his success to his ability to maintain an elevated mood, avoid anxiety and stay disciplined.[17] Uninterested in consumerism, he drove his own car, never flew first class and lived year-round in the Bahamas.[18]

..
The Templeton Foundation encourages research into "big questions" by awarding philanthropic aid to institutions and people who pursue the answers to such questions through "explorations into the laws of nature and the universe, to questions on the nature of love, gratitude, forgiveness, and creativity."[24]

Templeton asserts that the purpose of the Templeton Foundation is as follows:

We are trying to persuade people that no human has yet grasped 1% of what can be known about spiritual realities. So we are encouraging people to start using the same methods of science that have been so productive in other areas, in order to discover spiritual realities.
—Sir John Templeton, Interview with Financial Intelligence Report

On July 8, 2008, Templeton died at Doctors Hospital in Nassau, Bahamas, of pneumonia at 12:20 local time. He was 95

Riches for the Mind and Spirit: John Marks Templeton's Treasury of Words to Help, Inspire, and Live By, 2006. ISBN 1-59947-101-9
Faithful Finances 101: From The Poverty Of Fear And Greed To The Riches Of Spiritual Investing, 2005. ISBN 1-932031-75-8
Golden Nuggets from Sir John Templeton, 1997. ISBN 1-890151-04-1
Discovering the Laws of Life, 1994. ISBN 0-8264-0861-3
Is God the Only Reality? Science Points to a Deeper Meaning of the Universe, 1994. ISBN 0-8264-0650-5
Templeton Plan: 21 Steps to Personal Success and Real Happiness, 1992. ISBN 0-06-104178-5
The humble approach: Scientists discover God, 1981. ISBN 0-8164-0481-X
Worldwide Laws of Life: 200 Eternal Spiritual Principles, 1998. ISBN 1-890151-15-7.

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  #29 (permalink)
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All the big heavy industrialists have charities. They dont impress me.

Soros has the Soros Foundation charity, yet he almost bankrupt the UK in 92(?) while shorting the UK Pound.
Made a Billion on that one.

Henry Ford established the Ford Foundation charity, yet this guy was a Hitler fan who had very strong tires to the Nazi party. He build his charity in 1936.

And last but not least...drum roll....PFG....Peregrine Charities. Gave teddy bears to kids while stealing the hard earned income from honest people.

Aquarian, I don't mean to offend you or attack your belief system, if anything I like the fact that you are a conscious person and try to find good in people and larger organization. But, this is a personal choice and it could be a bit imposing to try and discuss a philosophy as such on a site where most trying to gain monetarily from active markets.

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  #30 (permalink)
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@mattz

Hi Mattz,

1. Picking bad examples doesn't negate a good person and Sir John in not an industrialist.
--------------------


2. You have consistently worked to undermine the energy of the thread

First - you had a post starting with "so I'm trying to understand the purpose of this thread.. and it was clear you hadn't read the thread before posting.
Second - you posted your 'great' call on Herbalife after the fact . This is not a stock picking thread. This post was off-topic from the thread - totally unrelated.
Third - the thread -- if you weren't so lazy and had read it before posting-- spoke on the first page of being different as it was not intended to be a debating thread. Go read the post.
--------------


3. You pick totally unrelated and unsupported references, such as Ford being a Hilter fan. This has no supporting reference and your knowledge is second hand vague references without backing.
----------


4. This is the off-topic area. This thread is not about money first last and always at any cost and without any regards to morals. Your life choice may be totally absent of any spiritual values but that is not everyone's. Far from imposing my values on others (and once again in numerous places I say these are my values and I am not saying they need be yours -but you haven't bothered to read the thread!).

You are very rude to say that I am imposing my values on others.
That is totally untrue.
You are a rude person who twists the truth to try and create dissension.

-----------------------


5. You are imposing your values on everyone on the board ! You are saying that all 26,000 Plus members must only think about the love of mammon and that anything else is not welcome at this board!
--------------------------------------

6. Go and read the first page -
There are sections for indicators, index trading, stocks etc. AND and an
off-topic section - for jokes and anything else not trading related.
That is where this is - in the off-topic section


Who are you to dictate that the entire board must be what Mattz says?


You don't own the board and nor do you set what topics may and may not be posted.
Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to only talk about what Mattz says.
If you are not interested in this topic - don't read the thread.

Keep your mind in the future, in the now.
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