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U.S. Debt Clock like you have never seen. This has trading ramifications!


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U.S. Debt Clock like you have never seen. This has trading ramifications!

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  #1 (permalink)
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I have seen the national debt clock but not like this one. Honestly watching all the different US debt metrics in real time makes me want to put in giant long term short. Our path is not sustainable.

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

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wow, is that read right? 15 trillion in personal debt, 13 trillion in mortgage debt? And the difference
from year 2000, from 1/3 of GDP in gov't spending to 1/2 of GDP today. gah..

like a roller coaster on the big climb slope up...ready to tip over but no track on the other side..

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wow, is that read right? 15 trillion in personal debt, 13 trillion in mortgage debt? And the difference
from year 2000, from 1/3 of GDP in gov't spending to 1/2 of GDP today. gah..

like a roller coaster on the big climb slope up...ready to tip over but no track on the other side..

@Cloudy shocking isn't it. Look at the total national debt per person of $181,000 with interest of $12,000 per person. Makes you wonder if this can be turned around.

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@Cloudy shocking isn't it. Look at the total national debt per person of $181,000 with interest of $12,000 per person. Makes you wonder if this can be turned around.

Debt amnesty?

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if you REALLY want to choke, you should check out our unfunded liabilities to medicare and social security.

We have a fiscal train wreck approaching that NO ONE (Democrats or Republicans) are interested in seriously addressing.

The Republican budget looks exactly like the Democrat budget, just slightly less growth rate of the debt.

Americans are stupid enough to buy a budget plan that extends out well beyond a politicians term of office, so if/when it doesn't pan out, they'll be long gone. And of course there's always the "crises" between here and then that can give them plenty of excuses on why it didn't work out the way they had planned.

Hell, the CBO (which is SUPPOSED to be a non-partisan agency) doesn't even use legit numbers and metrics.

The CBO does not account for tax policy affects to the economy ONE SINGLE BIT!

What does that mean? That means if you turned in a budget proposal for them to evaluate that had a personal income tax rate of 100%.....they'd send you back a projection that showed in the first year, you'd collect 100% of GDP in tax revenues (call it $15T for example purposes) then, in a shear display of brilliance, they'd project in year 2 that you'd collect $15.45T.....(using a project growth rate of 3%). Their projections do not account for the slowdown in economic activity or the fact that people would simply stop working altogether if the government robbed them 100% of their income.

So keep this in mind when you see CBO projections/comparisons between 2 different plans. 2 plans could be identical except for the tax rates and the CBO would do NOTHING to project the negative impacts of increasing taxes, either corporate, or individual, cap gains, none of them.

THEN, when you consider that the CBO projects totally ridiculous growth rates and interest rates...the whole charade is just dumb.

Congress and the executive branch are quite possible the worst financial managers in the history of the United States, but they put out some numbers and everyone goes....yeah, okay, great plan!

The ONLY major government excursion of the past 50 years to come in under budget was Medicare Part D (prescription drug benefit) simply because it involved vouchers which the beneficiary had to pick up a % of the tab, so beneficiaries actually shop around to find the best deals.

Every other venture, from wars, to social security, medicare, major cabinet budgets from DHS to FEMA, etc,,, EVERY SINGLE ONE COMES IN WAY OVER BUDGET....sometimes 10 or even 50 fold over budget.

The whole system is madness. The house is on fire and we're just continuing to watch dancing with the stars as if nothing is wrong.

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All politicians should be forced to have that real time graphic as their screen saver. I am not so sure we can get out of this without crashing.

This makes me want to go buy some land and learn to farm as it may be the only way we all eat.

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RM99 View Post
if you REALLY want to choke, you should check out our unfunded liabilities to medicare and social security.

@RM99 Yep that number is shocking as that calculator shows over $1,000,000 unfunded liability per tax payer. To me that means programs are insolvent now and can't be fixed. Horrible but looks like we just need to scrap the whole thing to the junk heap. Hard truth but entitlements can't continue because we are broke.

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All politicians should be forced to have that real time graphic as their screen saver. I am not so sure we can get out of this without crashing.

Ya think?

What you don't realize is that they WANT it to crash. The next step toward a new, one world government is to crash the global economy and wreck the $USD so that Americans will be in such bad shape that we'll agree to new financial solutions (aka a new currency and/or bailouts from a coalition of international banks and governments).

The one world government agenda is real. It's not a joke or a conspiracy theory. But the PTB know that the only way you can make that stick in the $US is to start removing the American citizens rights to bear arms...start preparing with internment camps, military-style police forces etc.

While Americans sit idly by, the Department of Homeland Security is ordering 600 MILLION rounds of ammunition....dozens of "armored ambush vehicles" they've paved the way for 30 THOUSAND drone flights by 2020, the President just signed an executive order allowing him to indefinitely detain Americans without trial or charge or notification. FEMA has recently revamped their plans to include over 600 different "emergency" camps (aka internment camps).

The people are asleep and the government is preparing for the economic collapse. They know it's coming, they WANT it to come, which will push us right into the waiting arms of the UN and foreign banks. And if the people resist, they'll be thrown in internment camps. The difference between the US and Greece is that 1% of the American population represents the largest standing Army in the Western Hemisphere. Why do you think they're pushing so hard to get the UN small arms treaty rammed through? Why do you think the FBI and the government are trying so hard to foster and facilitate mass shootings? (so that they can scare the people into giving up on gun rights and keep sliding until only the police/government have them).

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I pretty much believe that. The "batman" shooting however tragic was still used by the puppet media to deal another blow to gun rights. With the collapse, retail trading would certainly be finished. But that won't matter to the big banks/firms and governments that have their stockpiles of gold and their untaxed offshored stashes. Their wealth under the new one world currency would probably skyrocket. The citizenry are told to support the military, yet are pushed and brainwashed by the media and both parties to accept the illusion of total security. When in fact the citizenry also need to act like minutemen soldiers, keep their guns, and to vote like American citizens of old instead of just voting for themselves more pensions or government promises of security through reckless spending.

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The Rothschilds have been orchestrating wars and economic "pullbacks" for centuries. The best time to buy assets is just after the economy tanks...and those with money and assets are in the best position to take advantage.

The globalist agenda plays right into the liberal indoctrination that our schools have been brainwashing kids for years. Our children have grown to hate America and whether it's pollution or "sustainability" or any number of iceberg concepts, the liberals who push for globalization of world governments play right into the entire charade.

Lybia wasn't about a tyrant. It wasn't about oil. It was about a nation that had huge gold reserves and wasn't under the thumb of central banks. Iran isn't under the thumb of central banks either....notice a trend here? The opium production in Afghanistan came to a screeching halt in 2000 under the taliban, but now it's back to pre-Taliban levels. The CIA needs their drug trade to fund all their black ops and off book operations.

People in America are so inundated by "normalcy bias" that they refuse to believe that anything so sinister and contrived could EVER happen. It's unbelievable to them, which is exactly why it's working.

People who refuse to believe the government was complicit in Oklahoma City or 9-11 should read about operation Northwoods, which was approved by the Joint Chiefs and all the way to elected and cabinet level positions. Kennedy ultimately nixed the idea and low and behold, Kennedy was bumped off. Within weeks of Johnson's swearing in, he squashed Kennedy's plans to return the monetary system to some semblence of sound currency. Low and behold, the final straw in the destruction of the Gold standard happened in 1971....we're TOTALLY dependent upon central banks and fiat/debt based currency at this point. The entire system is based upon nothing but debt.

(Most Americans don't realize that it's ILLEGAL to own gold as an asset, since 1933.) Try collecting your own Gold and smelting it into bricks to keep in your freezer and then tell someone about it and see if someone doesn't come knocking at your door. In order for the system to work, citizens cannot be permitted to hold anything of real value. You can invest in gold ETFs and derivatives, but see what happens if the system crashes and you try to redeem your value.

bah, it's all just conspiracy theories. Pay no attention. Ron Paul only predicted the housing crisis in 2001 (along with how it would happen, the GSE debacle with FNMA and Freddie and the derivatives markets).

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All I know is when this does finally hit the fan in comparison being a citizen of Greece might look like Shangri-La.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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All I know is when this does finally hit the fan in comparison being a citizen of Greece might look like Shangri-La.

Yep, Greece lost their soveriegnty without a single shot fired. Now a group of foreign governments (lobbied and influenced by a group of foreign banks) gets to determine what Greek policy must be and cannot be.

Everyone should check out Iceland and ask themselves....why oh why are we not hearing ANYTHING about it on the mainstream news? In 1950, there was over 250 independent news/communications networks. Today, 95% of the media is controlled by 5 or 6 parent companies who are largely owned by banks and other large corporations. And people wondered why the government is so interested in SOPA/PIPA...because they know that the internet is a form of freedom of information, outside the control of the mainstream media.

SOPA/PIPA will surface again.....I suspect the government will generate some sort of "terrorist" or deliberate attack on the internet/commo infrastructure that will give them the political backing to emplace new laws which allow the government to "regulate" internet sites, providers, etc.......that way if anyone steps too far out of line in the future, they can step in to "protect" us.

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RM99 View Post
Ya think?

What you don't realize is that they WANT it to crash. The next step toward a new, one world government is to crash the global economy and wreck the $USD so that Americans will be in such bad shape that we'll agree to new financial solutions (aka a new currency and/or bailouts from a coalition of international banks and governments).

The one world government agenda is real. It's not a joke or a conspiracy theory. But the PTB know that the only way you can make that stick in the $US is to start removing the American citizens rights to bear arms...start preparing with internment camps, military-style police forces etc.

While Americans sit idly by, the Department of Homeland Security is ordering 600 MILLION rounds of ammunition....dozens of "armored ambush vehicles" they've paved the way for 30 THOUSAND drone flights by 2020, the President just signed an executive order allowing him to indefinitely detain Americans without trial or charge or notification. FEMA has recently revamped their plans to include over 600 different "emergency" camps (aka internment camps).

The people are asleep and the government is preparing for the economic collapse. They know it's coming, they WANT it to come, which will push us right into the waiting arms of the UN and foreign banks. And if the people resist, they'll be thrown in internment camps. The difference between the US and Greece is that 1% of the American population represents the largest standing Army in the Western Hemisphere. Why do you think they're pushing so hard to get the UN small arms treaty rammed through? Why do you think the FBI and the government are trying so hard to foster and facilitate mass shootings? (so that they can scare the people into giving up on gun rights and keep sliding until only the police/government have them).

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12 years ago, the government was in surplus, and projected to retire the debt in 2013 ( next year )


Just sayin

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Well, that debt clock is shocking.. But there is one good solution, a commodity that could create hundreds of thousands of jobs and a great consumption tax draw. Sweet Mary Jane. 56% of Americans are in favor of legalization. They see it's merits and value as did many of the US founding fathers, Washington and Jefferson themselves avid growers and users of one of natures true healing treasures. The amount consumed in dollar value is close in scope to the 1/2 trillion guzzeld in gasoline each year. It would surely pay the interest on that debt at any rate. But oh no, the sweet little plant is EVIL according to GOD, I have heard... right.... In fact Jesus himself, and his disciples were users of the holy weed...

BBC NEWS | Health | Cannabis linked to Biblical healing[/url]

So anyways, there's a solution that will more than service the debt and create real jobs and business... Unfortunately a whole lot of people have something against personal liberty and freedom....

The only reason it isn't legal here yet is the US Drug czar has very long reach... it should be though, and I really hope people see the light.. We have very high taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, a pack of cigarettes in this country is 12 dollars, 90% tax, we tax that s#IT cos we have a healthcare system to pay for.... could do the same for the marijuana, albeit it is actually a cure for cancer and many other ills, still, i'm sure most would be happy to pay for the freedom....

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traderwerks View Post
12 years ago, the government was in surplus, and projected to retire the debt in 2013 ( next year )


Just sayin

If you look here:


You can see growth was exploding, so it is not a real surprise he was able to do this. Still, a good day for America and now it seems impossible to get back to that point. We certainly can't do it from growth, we need to do it from spending cuts. And start with the military and entitlement programs.

FactCheck.org : The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton







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Were he in office in Italy and received a blow job at his desk they would have put him on the hundred dollar bill... if he was having a toke while getting toked, he's my HERO!!!

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traderwerks View Post
12 years ago, the government was in surplus, and projected to retire the debt in 2013 ( next year )


Just sayin

This means at best, the CBO has no idea what's going to happen in 10 years......

It also just goes to show you that increasing taxes won't do a thing to help the deficit. Politicians will simply increase spending if we give them additional revenues.

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RM99 View Post
This means at best, the CBO has no idea what's going to happen in 10 years......

It also just goes to show you that increasing taxes won't do a thing to help the deficit. Politicians will simply increase spending if we give them additional revenues.

Umm.. Not really what I was saying.

The retiring of the debt was projected before 9/11, the Bush tax cuts of 2001/2003 and the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, right when the red ink comes back.

My point was that we were on at least a general direction of retiring the debt. ( Not debating weather we were really in surplus etc ) That when times were good, and we were going in the right direction, the country went on a spending and tax cut binge that put us into the red again.

If we had kept our house in order back then, we wouldn't be in the place where we are now. I think there is a debate that needs to happen with the American population, and that is how much government we are willing to pay for and how we pay for it.

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Umm.. Not really what I was saying.

The retiring of the debt was projected before 9/11, the Bush tax cuts of 2001/2003 and the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, right when the red ink comes back.

My point was that we were on at least a general direction of retiring the debt. ( Not debating weather we were really in surplus etc ) That when times were good, and we were going in the right direction, the country went on a spending and tax cut binge that put us into the red again.

If we had kept our house in order back then, we wouldn't be in the place where we are now. I think there is a debate that needs to happen with the American population, and that is how much government we are willing to pay for and how we pay for it.

Not completely. Everyone associates the "Bush Tax cuts" (even though they were a bipartisan effort) as the big detractor...but in reality, revenues were climbing above the historical norm. There's no need to collect more than 18-20% revenue and given the slowdown in the economy, it only made sense to cut taxes.

Furthermore, we've entered this new era where Americans feel like a tax cut is some sort of gift (as if the money belonged to the government and giving it back is a blessing).

The reality is we operated in this country for over a century with no individual income tax (back when the Federal government still operated within it's Constitutional limits). Americans can longer imagine a world where there's not 35% taxes.

We don't have a revenue problem, revenues are still where they've always been, we have a spending problem. I can't emphasize this enough.

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Are Entitlements Corrupting Us? Yes - WSJ.com

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RM99 View Post
Not completely. Everyone associates the "Bush Tax cuts" (even though they were a bipartisan effort) as the big detractor...but in reality, revenues were climbing above the historical norm. There's no need to collect more than 18-20% revenue and given the slowdown in the economy, it only made sense to cut taxes.

Furthermore, we've entered this new era where Americans feel like a tax cut is some sort of gift (as if the money belonged to the government and giving it back is a blessing).

The reality is we operated in this country for over a century with no individual income tax (back when the Federal government still operated within it's Constitutional limits). Americans can longer imagine a world where there's not 35% taxes.

We don't have a revenue problem, revenues are still where they've always been, we have a spending problem. I can't emphasize this enough.

I hear you and understand where you are coming from.

My point is we were doing better in 2000, and when started spending more than we took into the government and instead of fixing the problem, the nation kicked the can down the road for 12 years and here we are. ( I should mention that the Europeans seem to be making an Olympic sport of kicking the can down the road )

If the economy is bad and you run deficits to help the economy, then you need to run surpluses when times are good to make up for it. Long term deficits are not good for the economy.

It seems we are all Keynesian when financial crises hit like in 2008, but when times are good, we seem to start saying 'Deficits don't matter' instead of paying the deficits down.

( Whether you say it is a revenue problem or a spending problem depends on whom you ask and I don't want to touch that question. )

Great discussion @RM99

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True of False, George Bush was a highly responsible and forward looking leader? And did he inhale?

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traderwerks View Post
I hear you and understand where you are coming from.

My point is we were doing better in 2000, and when started spending more than we took into the government and instead of fixing the problem, the nation kicked the can down the road for 12 years and here we are. ( I should mention that the Europeans seem to be making an Olympic sport of kicking the can down the road )

If the economy is bad and you run deficits to help the economy, then you need to run surpluses when times are good to make up for it. Long term deficits are not good for the economy.

It seems we are all Keynesian when financial crises hit like in 2008, but when times are good, we seem to start saying 'Deficits don't matter' instead of paying the deficits down.

( Whether you say it is a revenue problem or a spending problem depends on whom you ask and I don't want to touch that question. )

Great discussion @RM99

There are two main problems with Keynsian philosophy. 1) Capital formation is the key driver of economic growth. The ability of people with disposable and extreneous property to risk that property in order to creat new businesses, industries (and as a result...jobs).

But lets assume for a minute that Keynes was correct, lets assume that individual consumption and spending is what drives economic growth.....

The next logical step (the one that politicians take) is that therefore it's "Best" to spend our way out of recessions, to inject money into the hands of individuals who will then go out and spend that money, creating demand for products and services (and eventually finding it's way into the hands of capitalists).

This is how you get idiots like Nancy Pelosi saying "we have to pass the unemployment bill in order to create jobs."

The PROBLEM, the main problem with Keynsian philosophy (beyond the fact that it's simply either wrong or misguided on consumer spending vs. capital venture) is that politicians and governments aren't in the habit of spending in bad times and then SAVING in good times.

Keynes advocated for smoothing out the economic cycle by spending your way through troughs and then scaling back and saving your way during peaks (in order to prevent overheating and boom/bust cycle).

The problem is that politicians spend. They spend when times are tough (quoting Keynes bunk notions) and then when times are good, every pension, every government worker, ever service and benefit says "we can afford a little more." This is how NJ and virtually every other state ended up on the brink of bankruptcy....during the boom, they expanded retirements and entitlements for state workers, to the point of ridiculousness.

NOW, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to scale those commitments back. (wages and benfits for municipal and union workers is EVER a ratchet, it only goes one way, not the other).

So even if you accept the notion that Keynes was correct (which I don't) the pragmatic and practical reality is that it can NEVER work with politicians....politicians spend, it's what helps them to get re-elected....they spend during bad times (by borrowing and placing the burden on future generations and voters who cannot yet represent themselves) and they REALLY spend during good times.

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RM99 View Post
There are two main problems with Keynsian philosophy. 1) Capital formation is the key driver of economic growth. The ability of people with disposable and extreneous property to risk that property in order to creat new businesses, industries (and as a result...jobs).

But lets assume for a minute that Keynes was correct, lets assume that individual consumption and spending is what drives economic growth.....

The next logical step (the one that politicians take) is that therefore it's "Best" to spend our way out of recessions, to inject money into the hands of individuals who will then go out and spend that money, creating demand for products and services (and eventually finding it's way into the hands of capitalists).

This is how you get idiots like Nancy Pelosi saying "we have to pass the unemployment bill in order to create jobs."

The PROBLEM, the main problem with Keynsian philosophy (beyond the fact that it's simply either wrong or misguided on consumer spending vs. capital venture) is that politicians and governments aren't in the habit of spending in bad times and then SAVING in good times.

Keynes advocated for smoothing out the economic cycle by spending your way through troughs and then scaling back and saving your way during peaks (in order to prevent overheating and boom/bust cycle).

The problem is that politicians spend. They spend when times are tough (quoting Keynes bunk notions) and then when times are good, every pension, every government worker, ever service and benefit says "we can afford a little more." This is how NJ and virtually every other state ended up on the brink of bankruptcy....during the boom, they expanded retirements and entitlements for state workers, to the point of ridiculousness.

NOW, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to scale those commitments back. (wages and benfits for municipal and union workers is EVER a ratchet, it only goes one way, not the other).

So even if you accept the notion that Keynes was correct (which I don't) the pragmatic and practical reality is that it can NEVER work with politicians....politicians spend, it's what helps them to get re-elected....they spend during bad times (by borrowing and placing the burden on future generations and voters who cannot yet represent themselves) and they REALLY spend during good times.

Totally agree , Keynes does not work in real life ( IMHO ) because of politicians.

I am more of a hayekian (sp?) just for the reasons you cite.

Math. A gateway drug to reality.
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First i would just say that I think Keynes was far more complex in his thinking than what is given in the mainstream view of his general theory of employment, money,and interest... His real philosophy on economic designs were in his discourses on what he called the animal spirts... the unquantifiable and the unmodelable.. A lot of things are designed to work but don't, the process of the common law for one. Sadly, the rule of law has been replaced by the rule of lawyers. And politics, that's a simple concept, you elect the person to represent you who will act accordingly, pretty simple.. We voted in politicians to balance our books when we put the conservatives in power, they made painful and deep cuts, and we re-elected them because they did what they said they would do, not vice versa... a bit simpler here though... but anyways, every situation is unique, the only constant the animal spirits, when they run wild again and we are on the brink of collapse I'm sure whatever it is people call Keynesian will be sounding pretty good...

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syxforex View Post
First i would just say that I think Keynes was far more complex in his thinking than what is given in the mainstream view of his general theory of employment, money,and interest... His real philosophy on economic designs were in his discourses on what he called the animal spirts... the unquantifiable and the unmodelable.. A lot of things are designed to work but don't, the process of the common law for one. Sadly, the rule of law has been replaced by the rule of lawyers. And politics, that's a simple concept, you elect the person to represent you who will act accordingly, pretty simple.. We voted in politicians to balance our books when we put the conservatives in power, they made painful and deep cuts, and we re-elected them because they did what they said they would do, not vice versa... a bit simpler here though... but anyways, every situation is unique, the only constant the animal spirits, when they run wild again and we are on the brink of collapse I'm sure whatever it is people call Keynesian will be sounding pretty good...

Show me this fictitious politician who's EVER made "paintful and deep" cuts at the Federal level...I'm interested to see such a unicorn.

If a politician advocates returning to 2008 spending levels (which in a completely tragic twist of fate, makes them conservative apparently) then idiots come out of the woodwork screaming "Draconian!" "Barbaric!" etc. I was here in 2008. People weren't living in caves, fighting off bears with torches...but to return to those spending levels is unthinkable.

Americans have been brainwashed into believing that the Federal Government HAS to be the size it is or at least in close proximity. They cannot envision a world where the Federal government is limited to ONLY it's mandates under the Constitution.

Virtually EVERY function that the Federal Government serves today, outside of defense and foreign issues, can and should be solved at the state level. The benefits of such a system are incredible and numerous. But alas, people respond to national propaganda and fearmongering and manipulation by the media and they throw the Constitution in the trash.

Nevermind the fact that if Romneycare is SOOOOO successful in Mass....that the citizens from every other state can voluntarily choose to feature such a system in their state....we have to employ a one size fits all debacle at the national level.

Everything from education, to financial regulations, to FDA issues can be solved at the state level...as well as entitlements and welfare.

THAT would give the citizenry and operable choice of governance. You could pick your poison. It would also create a laboratory of policy experiments where states could see how other states impliment their policies and either replicate or reject them. It puts the operable crook (aka the politician) closer to home (rather than in a couple of buildings thousands of miles away).

We were never meant to be a Democracy. We were never meant to be singular nation. We were meant to be a union. A representative Republic...with a confederation of member states, all serving under the same flag (for foreign and border relations) and the Federal government was never intended to be anything but a referee on social issues.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
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National Debt just passed 16 trillion and is not slowing down. U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

Going to bad when we have to implement Greek like austerity measures to stop our massive spending problem. Headed for a massive train wreck if spending brakes not applied quickly.

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I.O.U.S.A. Bonus Reel: Social Security+Medicare Projections - YouTube
Social Security+Medicare Projections

Capitalism Hits the Fan: A Lecture on the Economic Meltdown - Preview - YouTube
Capitalism Hits the Fan

Steven Greenhouse on the Growing Wage Gap - YouTube
The Big Squeeze

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Capitalism gets a bad rep.....we haven't tried it in decades.

Anyone dogging the likes of capitalism (to argue our current state of affairs) really doesn't understand capitalism. There's a far cry between free markets and government-coporate collusion and cronyism we feature today.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
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If I may have the freedom to toke my herb, then I'm IN!!! WHERE DO I SIGN UP


RM99 View Post
Show me this fictitious politician who's EVER made "paintful and deep" cuts at the Federal level...I'm interested to see such a unicorn.

If a politician advocates returning to 2008 spending levels (which in a completely tragic twist of fate, makes them conservative apparently) then idiots come out of the woodwork screaming "Draconian!" "Barbaric!" etc. I was here in 2008. People weren't living in caves, fighting off bears with torches...but to return to those spending levels is unthinkable.

Americans have been brainwashed into believing that the Federal Government HAS to be the size it is or at least in close proximity. They cannot envision a world where the Federal government is limited to ONLY it's mandates under the Constitution.

Virtually EVERY function that the Federal Government serves today, outside of defense and foreign issues, can and should be solved at the state level. The benefits of such a system are incredible and numerous. But alas, people respond to national propaganda and fearmongering and manipulation by the media and they throw the Constitution in the trash.

Nevermind the fact that if Romneycare is SOOOOO successful in Mass....that the citizens from every other state can voluntarily choose to feature such a system in their state....we have to employ a one size fits all debacle at the national level.

Everything from education, to financial regulations, to FDA issues can be solved at the state level...as well as entitlements and welfare.

THAT would give the citizenry and operable choice of governance. You could pick your poison. It would also create a laboratory of policy experiments where states could see how other states impliment their policies and either replicate or reject them. It puts the operable crook (aka the politician) closer to home (rather than in a couple of buildings thousands of miles away).

We were never meant to be a Democracy. We were never meant to be singular nation. We were meant to be a union. A representative Republic...with a confederation of member states, all serving under the same flag (for foreign and border relations) and the Federal government was never intended to be anything but a referee on social issues.


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Pure unbridled Darwinian capitalism has always ended in ruin... The goal of every individual is to unleash their infinite greed in the game to own more of the pie than anyone else, which leads to monopolies, power assymmytries, dictatorial control, slavery, fascism, etc,... power corrupts, as they say.. Not everyone is born with that deep seeded limitless greed in their blood... of course, the nature of evolution and its power cannot be denied, this is why the game needs to be played, but please, with rules, boxing with rules is a game, without it's just some kind of bloody race to the bottom...


RM99 View Post
Capitalism gets a bad rep.....we haven't tried it in decades.

Anyone dogging the likes of capitalism (to argue our current state of affairs) really doesn't understand capitalism. There's a far cry between free markets and government-coporate collusion and cronyism we feature today.


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syxforex View Post
Pure unbridled Darwinian capitalism has always ended in ruin... The goal of every individual is to unleash their infinite greed in the game to own more of the pie than anyone else, which leads to monopolies, power assymmytries, dictatorial control, slavery, fascism, etc,... power corrupts, as they say.. Not everyone is born with that deep seeded limitless greed in their blood... of course, the nature of evolution and its power cannot be denied, this is why the game needs to be played, but please, with rules, boxing with rules is a game, without it's just some kind of bloody race to the bottom...

It's just not true...the fallacy of other forms of government and economy is that they can bridle and keep at bay the inherent greed and powerlust you describe. The ONLY thing that keeps greed in check, is competitive greed. The free market itself forces market participants to curb their greed and desire. Healthy free markets are the best functioning.

It was capitalism and the free market that saw the establishment of the first middle class in world history.

Besides, we don't have "pure inbridled" capitalism. We have anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws, patent laws (to encourage investment and risk).

We took a system that worked for decades and even centuries and succombed to this liberal pipe dream that "we can make it better" by providing social welfare to the less fortunate. When we opened the door in 1913 to squashing the Constitution, that was the beginning of the end. That was Pandora's box.

The Federal Reserve Act along with income taxes allowed the Federal government to begin to borrow (and spend more) which allowed them to conduct a policy of war adventurism, social welfarism which both brought on even more spending (and more power and corruption at the Federal level).

No system is perfect, that's what we failed to acknowledge and instead of sticking to a good thing, we kept messing with it.

Murphy's Law #5 "If it's not broken, keep fixing it until it is."

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
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The decadent international but individualistic capitalism in the hands of which we found ourselves after the war is not a success. It is not intelligent. It is not beautiful. It is not just. It is not virtuous. And it doesn't deliver the goods. In short we dislike it, and we are beginning to despise it. But when we wonder what to put in its place, we are extremely perplexed.

For my part I think that capitalism, wisely managed, can probably be made more efficient for attaining economic ends than any alternative system yet in sight, but that in itself it is in many ways extremely objectionable.

Capitalism is “the astonishing belief that the nastiest motives of the nastiest men somehow or other work for the best results in the best of all possible worlds.”

- Keynes

Welcome to the dark science. I have to agree with what you say here, except for the so called regulations in place to oversee monopoly and competition and market efficiency. The republicans gave a number of ultra powerful investment banks a blank cheque, firstly in rights to do anything they wanted to the public markets, inclusive of monopolistic plundering, etc, and secondly a cheque for upwards of one trillion dollars. This is not well managed capitalism. This is unbridled capitalism. This is how the US debt clock has gotten to where it is. Blame it on what you will, but it was this disregard for regulation combined with the monetarist economic approach of Greenspan and now Bernanke that has printed this 15 TRILL in debt. I'm definitely not for some Orwellian government, no thanks, I like freedom, but someone has to be in charge and responsible somewhere. And personally I would have preferred to see that money spent on putting people to work building something great like a clean energy infrastructure rather than just handing it over to the bankers at 0% so they can collect the interest on the 15 TRILL. The middle class has been completely gutted and no longer believes in the anti-trust laws. It's a bloody mess that's for sure... Only quick and dirty way out in my opinion is to tax the black market, 35% of the economy, gut all non-essential government programs, and bring in a flat tax of 10% and burn the tax code so people like Romney actually pay the same tax as everybody else... and of course legalize the holy herb, give us our freedom to toke our peaceful pipes and keep your religious views to yourself.... now there's a Republic


RM99 View Post
It's just not true...the fallacy of other forms of government and economy is that they can bridle and keep at bay the inherent greed and powerlust you describe. The ONLY thing that keeps greed in check, is competitive greed. The free market itself forces market participants to curb their greed and desire. Healthy free markets are the best functioning.

It was capitalism and the free market that saw the establishment of the first middle class in world history.

Besides, we don't have "pure inbridled" capitalism. We have anti-trust and anti-monopoly laws, patent laws (to encourage investment and risk).

We took a system that worked for decades and even centuries and succombed to this liberal pipe dream that "we can make it better" by providing social welfare to the less fortunate. When we opened the door in 1913 to squashing the Constitution, that was the beginning of the end. That was Pandora's box.

The Federal Reserve Act along with income taxes allowed the Federal government to begin to borrow (and spend more) which allowed them to conduct a policy of war adventurism, social welfarism which both brought on even more spending (and more power and corruption at the Federal level).

No system is perfect, that's what we failed to acknowledge and instead of sticking to a good thing, we kept messing with it.

Murphy's Law #5 "If it's not broken, keep fixing it until it is."


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There are THOUSANDS of examples that prove Keynes wrong. Millions of examples.

The drug industry is a perfect example. Why would a company, RISK huge amounts of wealth and resources in order to develop a drug that satisfies an operable need in society? Greed.

Then in a huge twist of fate, idiot liberals cry foul when a person or group of people develop a new drug or technique and consumers feel like the price is too high.

Hey, here's a blinding news flash for those people, if it weren't for the person(s) that risked their time, effort, sweat, tears, money and dreams on making it, you wouldn't HAVE it to begin with....so in order to PROTECT that phenomenon, to reward venturism and entreprenuership, we HAVE to protect this system that rewards people for advancing our society.

Why do you think that the $US is where 90% of the new drugs and techniques and equipment come from? Why do you think they don't come out of Canada or the EU? Because in those countries, there's no REWARD for such endeavors. And when there's no reward, there's very little incentive (other than some altruistic, intrinsic motivation by someone to do "good" which is powerful no doubt, but pales in comparison to greed and fear.)

Greed (the prospect of more prosperity) and fear (the prospect of failure or losing your property) is what drives markets, drives innovation and advancement.

There are other motivators, and we can discuss the ultra wealthy and their motivations (in a different thread) but at it's core, capitalism is chiefly responsible for 90% of the advancments and innovations in the modern world.

Why does China have 6 times the population of the United States and has never won a Nobel Prize? Did you know that there are more Chinese citizens with what we consider a "genius" IQ than there are Americans in total?

I'll tell you why, it's called CAPITALISM. It's called REWARD, it's called "FREEDOM AND LIBERTY."

The Chinese are hella good at pirating and reverse engineering other people's technology. They're very good at leveraging their cheap labor supply (for manufacturing) but when is the last time you heard of a top of the line product being developed and made in China?

China doesn't manufacture ANYTHING high performance that the rest of the world does. No airliners. No automobiles.

I'm a shooting/firearms enthusiast...if you want to buy the top of the line optics, you don't buy them from Chinese manufacturers, you buy German/Austrian glass or Japanese glass or American (German is the best). But well over half the rifle scopes bought come from China...they can make the HELL out of a low end, low quality product.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
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Millions of examples on Keynes being wrong??? What on earth are you talking about?
Keynes was not a politician or a policy maker. He developed the IS-LM model for analyzing economic systems, a pure mathematical approach to modelling economies. It's truth or untruth is not in debate, it is what it is, a tool, and it is used by all economists today, from Harvard to Chicago, from Greenspan to Bernanke, they all use Keynes' IS-LM model to explain and analyze economic forces. Keynes was a seeker of truth, and his framework models are logic based, not opinion based. There is a reason that he is oft quote by US Politicians in congress, by Bernanke and Greenspan and central bankers the world over, from Buffet to Blankfein, Keynes is revered. His ideas are as valid today as when he created them. To say that fiscal stimulus to support an ailing economy is wrong either puts you in the monetarist camp or it put you in no camp. During the great depression there was a gold standard in place and there was no monetarist approach available. Since then it has been debated which is the better policy tool. We are now seeing the brilliance of the latter. Give bankers free money and they will spread it around get things going, or just buy government paper and ask for more free money as we are seeing now, that's capitalism..
Obviously I am a capitalist, what else is there? But I do not agree that a responsible government has no place in it. In your comments about Canadian innovation you are suggesting it's because our government is too big, I would point you to the fact that less than 1% of Canadians work for government while in the US over 7% do. A Smaller Percentage Of Americans Work For The Government Now That At Any Time Since 1987 - Business Insider

We in Canada do just fine in the innovation field. Here is a prime example of Buffet going long a great Canadian innovator, the largest maker of private jets in the world.
Buffett Pounces in Private-Jet Slump With $9.6 Billion - Bloomberg


I don't know how the drug industry is a perfect example of Keynesian economics. At any rate to say that Chinese medicine is not innovative and does nothing but copy American pharamaceutical companies could not be further from the truth. Chinese medicine has been a continual science for over 5000 years. They don't use, like, or respect Western medical practices. It's another world altogether, and to say that western medicine is automatically superior is quite ignorant. They are doing major ground breaking work in antirvirals and antibiotics, and not to mention human performance enhancing drugs.. As for US pharmaceuticals chasing the mighty dollar as their prime motive, not a single new antibiotic is currently being researched in the US where superbugs are fast becoming a major issue. Why, there is not enough money in it. The real money is in diet pills and antidepressants, cheap to make and with a huge demand base.

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For almost 20 years now Canadian and American companies have competed man for man, dollar for dollar, in wide open free trade.

otp mulroney/reagan - YouTube

Today, Canadian banking corporations are the strongest in the world and the average Canadian is richer than the average American. Is there a case for putting the bridle on and regulating some corporations?

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The World Economy is an Island - YouTube

"Let’s suppose six castaways are stranded on a desert island, five Asians and one American. Their problem is hunger.

So they sit down and divide labor as follows: One Asian will do the hunting, another will fish, the third will scrounge for vegetation, the fourth will cook dinner, and the fifth will gather firewood and tend the fire. The sixth, the American, is given the job of eating.

So five Asians work all day to feed one American, who spends his day sunning himself on the beach. The American is employed in the equivalent of the service sector, operating a tanning salon that has one customer: himself. At the end of the day, the five Asians present a painstakingly prepared feast to the American, who sits at the head of a special table built by the Asians specifically for this purpose.

Now the American is practical enough to know that if the Asians are going to continue providing banquets they must also be fed, so he allows them just enough scraps from his table to sustain them for the following day’s labor.
Modern-day economists would have you look at the situation just described and believe that the American is the lone engine of growth driving the island’s economy; that without the American and his ravenous appetite, the Asians on the island would all be unemployed.

The reality, of course, is that the American is not the engine of growth, but the caboose, and the best thing the Asians could do would be to vote the American off the island—decoupling the caboose from the gravy train. Without the American to consume most of their food, they’d have a lot more to eat themselves. Then the Asians could spend less time working on food-related tasks and devote more time to leisure or to satisfying other needs that now go unfulfilled because so many of their scarce resources are devoted to feeding the American.

Ah, you say, but that analogy is flawed because in the real world the United States does pay for its “food” and Asians do receive value in exchange for their effort.

Okay, then let’s assume the American on the island pays for his food the same way real-world Americans pay, by issuing IOUs. At the end of each meal, the Asians present the American with a bill, which he pays by issuing IOUs claiming to represent future payments of food.

The castaways all know that the IOUs can never be collected, since the American not only produces no food to back them up, but also lacks the means and the intention of ever providing any. But the Asians accept them anyway, each day adding to the accumulation of worthless IOUs. Are the Asians any better off as a result of this accumulation? Are they any less hungry? Of course not.

Whatever the reason, China’s going to be eating better than they would if they keep pouring gas into America’s sputtering economy.

If China’s central bank were really smart, they’d be the first to blink."

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we have the small issue of cannibalism that needs adding to the equation..

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Syxforex...

Canada?s secret bank bailout revealed | Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

You can download the full PDF document here...

The Big Banks' Big Secret | Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

OTTAWA—A study released today by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives (CCPA) estimates the previously secret extent of extraordinary support required by Canada’s banks during the financial crisis.

According to the study, by CCPA Senior Economist David Macdonald, support for Canadian banks reached $114 billion at its peak—that’s $3,400 for every man, woman, and child in Canada.

“At some point during the crisis, three of Canada’s banks—CIBC, BMO, and Scotiabank—were completely under water, with government support exceeding the market value of the company,” says Macdonald. “Without government supports to fall back on, Canadian banks would have been in serious trouble.”

Between October 2008 and July 2010, Canada’s largest banks relied heavily on financial aid programs provided by the Bank of Canada, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC), and the U.S. Federal Reserve—all at the same time.

Over the entire aid period, Canada’s banks reported $27 billion in total profits between them and the CEOs of each of the big banks were among the highest paid Canadian CEOs. Between 2008 and 2009, each bank CEO received an average raise in total compensation of 19%.

“The federal government claims it was offering the banks ‘liquidity support’ but it looks an awful lot like a bailout to me,” says Macdonald. “Whatever you call it, Canadian government aid for the country’s biggest banks was far more indispensable than the official line would suggest.”

The study estimates the value of government support by combing through data provided by CMHC, the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions and the Bank of Canada, as well as quarterly reports of the banks themselves.

Due to government secrecy, the study raises more questions than it answers. Macdonald calls on the Bank of Canada and CMHC to release the full details of how much support each Canadian bank received, when they received it, and what they put up as collateral.

“A healthy and resilient banking sector cannot operate under the shroud of secrecy. Details of the massive taxpayer support Canadian banks received should be released in the name of transparency and accountability,” says Macdonald. “Financial sector regulation should be strengthened to prevent the need for similar measures in the future.”

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  #42 (permalink)
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Damn, first I've heard of that, where have I been? I guess I'll have to eat my words now. So much for transparency.

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  #43 (permalink)
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Syxforex...

Before we collectively wave the Canadian flag re: our banks, read my post above....

To all our American colleagues:
Canadians unfortunately have the attitude that we are somehow special, different and immune to things
because we have 'always done things better'.

The truth is, Canada is very complacent politically and panders to the world, while we at home rest on our socialist laurels, and assume free medical care and subsidized education will continue forever.

While Quebec students protest by the hundreds of thousands, Canadians will sit, content in their living rooms, assuming that it's just polite to do so.

Look at the police state that was created during the G20 in Toronto.

Wake up Canadians!

(BEAVER TALE SLAP TO SIDE OF HEAD)

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  #44 (permalink)
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Unpatriotic, apathetic, and with a general inferiority complex to Americans, I'm defecting...

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  #45 (permalink)
British Columbia
 
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As for Quebec, if we had any dignity and balls we would have had our own referendum on their place in Canada a long time ago, ending with a big shiny boot right up the ass..

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  #46 (permalink)
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Syxforex...

We must rise up...we must do something.

RISING UP THE CANADIAN WAY....

(Gets out Christmas stationary, takes Niagara Falls souvenir pen out)

(writes apologetic letter to local Canadian rag paper re: Quebec seperatist party winning)

(does not put stamp on, but drives it to the newspaper himself)

(Stops on way back to Tim Hortons, Reads newspaper about Chinese oil company buying interests
in Alberta oil sands)

(Late that night watches Democratic National Convention)

(Obama gives him warm fuzzy feeling)

(Feeds reindeer, puts canoe away, Puts on Flannel PJ's, sleeps well)

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  #47 (permalink)
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I hear you man,, my grievances go on and on, but it's like yelling in teh forest and nobody hears.. The naivety and apathy has brought me to defection, i am not kidding, I would trade my citizenship pretty quick if I had an opportunity to live in a place with some pride..

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  #48 (permalink)
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Syxforex...

I think we just Hijacked this thread

It was supposed to be about U.S. Debt clock


My apologies. I will get off my Canadian Soapbox now

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